Democracy and Secrecy CANNOT exist hand in hand. Whenever a government decides
that it decides it has something to hide from it's own people, it is not
longer the people's government.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahMy grandmother used to refer
to men talking politics as "jawing".A lot of
"jawing" takes place, but little of substance. It's time to align
yourselves. I call for the impeachment of Obama and the firing of every
government employees who participated in any way with any wrong doing. Those who
can't define wrong doing should be fired immediately.4:51 p.m. June
8, 2013============Funny how you left out Sen. Orrin
Hatch and Rep, Jason Chaffetz who supported and gave him the legislation to do
it.Must be some more of your Grandmother's "jawing".
@Mike Richards"A lot of "jawing" takes place, but little of
substance. "Can you provide an example of jawing to make it more
clear what it is? "It's time to align yourselves. I call
for the impeachment of Obama "Ah there it is, thanks. That makes
the term jawing perfectly clear.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahThe collecting and
storing of personal information of U.S. citizens has been going on long before
Obama was elected or even Bush. It has been part of the DNA of all countries
around the world to do this collecting, always has been and always will be. As much as I hate the saying "if you have done no wrong you have nothing
to worry about." In this case I am afraid we just have to accept this
My grandmother used to refer to men talking politics as "jawing".A lot of "jawing" takes place, but little of substance.
It's time to align yourselves. I call for the impeachment of Obama and the
firing of every government employees who participated in any way with any wrong
doing. Those who can't define wrong doing should be fired immediately.
It is hard to believe that everyone is upset by this knowledge that the
government is gathering our personal data, it is time to stop and remember there
is no such thing as privacy. As soon as you speak over a wire or use the
intrenet, your message is out there for ANYONE to capture. There is no such
thing as privacy. This collecting of information by any country, company or
person can not be controlled. We just need to be careful what we say or do and
put into cyberspace and on airwaves.
UtahBlueDevil. Whether Obama or anyone else calls it a war on terror or not
changes nothing! Not calling it a war on terror is only foolish semantics! In
the meantime, the unprovoked attacks on innocent Americans continue, don't
This is what exactly what we mean by a "slippery slope." If given a
little power, the next administration takes a little more.Liberals,
you may trust Obama with your life and liberty now, but will you trust the next
administration to take a little more of your freedom in the name of safety and
security? Will you trust the IRS with all of their new powers when the
Republicans are in charge and moveon.org and the labor unions are being
investigated? Should any of us trust the IRS to implement health care? They
are the new Gestapo.No administration should take away personal
freedoms protected in the bill of rights. All americans should be outraged and
stop pointing fingers. It has happened on both sides.
@mountainman.... i get your point... but consider this. A war has a
beginning, middle, and end. At the end, you stand down, and start
reconstruction. The war on terror never really was a war... because it never
really had a beginning, and surely will never have an end.Killing
the idea of a "war on terror" only makes sense because it is a never
ending quest. There will be no end to this. Before bin Laden, there were many
more who preceded him. WWI was started through a terrorist assassination. In
the 1700 and 1800s, private navies (privateers) were used to hassle maritime
trade. This is nothing new at all. This is not a discrete war so
it was time to stop the game of pretending this is a distinct war. The need to
be vigilant against those who would use terror against us will be generational.
They need to have a warrant to do this period. And blaming this all on Bush who
did start it by the way, is like me killing someone and blaming Ted Bundy for it
after he has been dead for 24 years.
Everyone rings their hands. Why? We were warned of this over 200 years ago.
Read the 4th amendment to the constitution. Government snooping to retain power
is nothing new. Nor is the argument of the weak-kneed who justify it with a
desire for "safety. "We were handed an incredible gift by our founding
fathers that we have slowly squandered because we want government to take care
of us and keep us safe. Despite Ben Franklin's warning we have repeatedly
traded liberty for security. So what do we trade once we have given away our
liberty and still do not feel secure?
Dear Mountanman, mohokat, and Mike Richards...I would just like to
point out a few FACTS:1. This Domestic spying is the direct result
Bush and the Republicans 'Patriot Act'.2. The expansion
and extension - although signed by Obama - had a veto proof majority [meaning
nearly ALL Republicans, and many Democrats].3. The Utah
Congressional members who voted FOR the Patriot Act extension:Yes
votes -Jason ChaffetzJim MathesonOrrin HatchNo
votes - Mike LeeRob BishopSo - I appears Pres. Obama had
more than his fair share of support from the Utah delegation.Be
Honest, drop the party partisanship, and Show some integrity with your
accusations.3. As I've been saying for years now, ...and
you guys are worried about a mythical National Gun registry? Who needs it
when you have the "Patriot Act"? peanuts by comparison.BTW -- Here is an example of integrity.As pointed on the
"liberal" Huffington Post -- I am severely disappointed watching Barrack
morph into G. W. Obama.
Surprised? Not really. The program is bipartisan and has reasonable judicial
oversight, but if the NSA data is as secure as the IRS information that was
given to the George Soros funded Propublica for Democrat campaign purposes, we
are in more danger than from terrorists. Will there be more "leaks" of
NSA data during a subsequent political campaign.
Orrin, Orrin...Come out , come out, wherever you are!Utahns have
some questions for you.
Jay, thanks for sharing that little vignette about Orrin. I've often though
that his autobiography (I'm sure he's working on it) should be titled
something like, "Asleep on the Watchtower."@born in37. If
you think you'll get security for trading freedom, you're mistaken. If
you think the state will only use the evidence they gather to go after
"terrorists", you're mistaken as well. There is ample evidence to
support these assertions. First, you only need look at the recent IRS scandal
(and Obama was just continuing the tradition of Bush, Nixon, Kennedy, et al.).
If you want more evidence (and a blog that will keep you up to date) of the
misdeeds of the state, regularly read Will Grigg's Pro Libertate blog. The
US Federal and State police forces cause way more harm than terrorists could
ever dream of committing. Read Glenn Greenwald's articles at the Guardian.
Listen to Scott Horton's podcasts. These are not people who "have it
out for the United States." These are people who believe in freedom and
liberty and are documenting the ever increasing harm caused by the state. Be
jealous of your freedom.
Two things. First of all the expectation of privacy while appealing is an
enormous myth. I'll bet anyone trolling around this thread today has all
ready had to minimize one to three pop ups that are in direct response to things
you have viewed or purchased on the web. Remember also that the Boston bombers
were identified with department store videos. As Roland and others have said
Government seeking information on you is nothing new so this has nothing to do
with 9/11 it's simply all about technology.Secondly
conservatives, why is ok to trample all over the 4th amendment? Why do you so
readily give up those freedoms, make no apologies for interpreting and
justifying distortions yet whoa unto him who suggests a reasonable
interpretation of the second amendment that bans high capacity magazines, or
authorizes background checks..don't you understand what cannot infringe on
Security must never come before freedom. We must stand up to anyone, including
the government, if they or it want to exchange freedom for security.We authorized the government to defend this nation (the States) against
enemies, foreign or domestic. The greatest enemy to our freedom has
become the government! It surveils us. It tells us that our "safety"
is more important than our freedom. Every government says that. The Jews in Poland were told to get on a train for their safety and for their
protection. They were told to enter the "showers" for their safety to
rid them of lice. You say it would never happen in America? Open
your eyes! Obama's administration uses the I.R.S. to punish opposition.
It spies on the news media. It spies on the citizens and records their phone
conversations, their email, their internet browsing, the location vie GPS
transmitters on their cell phones. It is building a huge complex in Bluffdale
to store that information.WAKE UP! Throw away your "security
blanket" and demand freedom from the government.
As has been evidenced here of late this government cannot be trusted. It is led
by a proven liar(oh I'm sorry a hypocrite PC you know.)The IRS scandal is
proof. I do not want this government to know any more about me than possible as
I have no trust in it." They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
As I see it, the problem is not the Patriot Act. It is with those who abuse the
act and the lack of oversight. A delicate balance to be sure, but the problem is
Why was Senator and presidential candidate Obama staunchly against the Patriot
Act but now as President Obama he told us just yesterday this spying is
"necessary to keep us safe from terrorists"? This in spite of the fact
he told us the war on terror is over! Which is it? Can you please get your story
straight for once Mr. President?
Thank you for identifying the real administration for this assault on our
personal freedoms. I knew the Terrorists won when the Patriot Act was passed
and we became middle East countries, monitoring if not controlling our everyday
lives. Is it necessary? I really don't know because the success or failure
of these programs are behind a black curtain. Congressional Committees do claim
they review the programs but I believe they are in the dark too. They are just
going through the motions.Did you ever wonder after watching "Bourne
Ultimatum " film when the head was discussing the brainwashing program Tread
stone that was cancelled and replaced with another insidious one called
"Black briar"? Did the lie go undetected? Did the Committee look
engaged or wanting a potty break.
I still remember living in Germany after WWII and how much the people hid the
fact that the fact that they had the concentration camps with devices we would
call weapons of mass destruction of all the people in their own country they
executed. The horror those poor people suffered and all the efforts Germany did
to keep that secret. They occupied their normal citizens with war and diverted
their attention to crises that the regime used on a daily and nightly basis.
Get people to thinking about themselves and the economy that was bad
because of those people the Germans killed. To divide the people into groups of
haves and have-nots, educated and non-educated, immigration and emigration, and
even weather and natural disasters and how the government protects you from evil
mother-nature.There are a lot more tactics now. Personal
information in the 1930s was collected on one class of people. Today, with
computers that gave us the scriptures and better tools for education and
communication, we have a government that can indiscriminately use gathered data,
such as the IRS using information for non-governmental uses, that they got
caught doing. SS type? Not in USA.
@ born in37You are exactly wrong. We need to protect our small
rights to make sure our big ones are not infringed. In this case, I am afraid
that our big ones are already under assault. You want to give up your privacy
and freedom for your security? Fine, you are allowed to feel that way. That
said, don't you dare give away or support taking away my privacy and
freedom. The terrorists want us to live in fear so we undermine our
own liberty, if we do as you say, they win.To paraphrase a quote
often attributed to Ben Franklin... "He who sacrifices freedom for security
During the Church hearings on government spying back in the mid 70's, it
was revealed that the NSA had been gathering phone records since its inception
in 1952. The story did not get much publicity back then, but apparently this has
been going on for six decades now. Our technology is obviously superior today,
but the principle is the same.
As a life-long Conservative, I take a serious departure from my loyal colleges
on this issue. How can we argue amongst ourselves over an issue as serious as
the protection of our own lives for the possible intrusion into our personal
information. The world has changed since 9/11. There is nothing that
can replace our own safety and security. Those who are trying and in many cases
succeeding in killing us, either in mass or in smaller events will ever be part
of our society. There is no way to ferret them out without having
access to their evil plans. If our personal toes get stepped on, so be it. At
least we, for now, are alive. The more we try to protect ourselves, the more we
protect them. If you have something to hide. Too bad. If you are a
loyal law abiding citizen, we should not fear.Our obligation is to
pro-actively work to elect those who find a balance.
"The Bush and Obama administrations may be honest in their intent, with 9/11
still fairly fresh in everyone’s mind. But this is such a dangerous road
to travel precisely because, if it becomes engrained in our national way of
life, it can easily be used for nefarious purposes some day."Exactly, pretty much everyone is to blame for the initial votes and
reauthorizations to the point that it encompasses two presidents and most of the
leaders in both parties in Congress. Only a few have stood against it like
Udall, Wyden, and former Senator Feingold (only one to vote against the Patriot
Act in 2001) among Democrats and the new more libertarian-minded wing of Lee,
Cruz, and Paul among Republicans. If any progress is going to be made to reign
in this kind of power then it's going to require people in both parties to
work together for a change.