Comments about ‘Taking inventory of Utah's first two seasons in the Pac-12’

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Published: Tuesday, June 4 2013 6:09 p.m. MDT

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Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@2 fer

"but how do we know that BYU would have beat OSU, UCLA, WSU (in the snow) or Arizona?"

Well considering BYU did beat osu that season we can go ahead and say we do know that they would have won that one. As for the others, well there is no way to know for sure but I would say it's likely. None of those teams was particularly good and the last time BYU played any of them they beat them all pretty soundly I think. It is pretty easy to say BYU would have won all the pac12 games utah won that year considering BYU has had no trouble with any of those teams recently and they have played all of them.

Trying to claim BYU's overall record against pac 12 temas is not really relevent, although if you want to throw cal into the mix, a team utah got worked by that season, well BYU has worked them over pretty good 3 times in the last decade so head to head the advantage goes to BYU.

Marked it Down
Park City, UT

2fer

"...how do we know that BYU would have beat OSU, UCLA, WSU (in the snow) or Arizona?"

We don't, just like we don't know how Utah would have fared against BYU's schedule.

What we do know is that Bronco is 8-7 versus PAC 10/12 teams, with winning records versus 3 of the 4 teams Utah beat - OSU(2-1), UCLA(2-1), Arizona(1-2), WSU(1-0) - plus a winning record versus Washington(2-0).

So it's not at all unlikely that BYU could have finished 6-3 in the PAC 12 in 2011, easily good enough to win the South Division. Don't forget, the game with Utah would have been a non-conference game if BYU and Utah had switched schedules.

Let's also not forget that, unlike Kyle, Bronco seldom loses to bad teams.

During his 8 seasons at BYU, Bronco has only lost to four teams with losing records - 2012 Utah(5-7), 2010 Utah State(4-8), 2007 UCLA(6-7), a team BYU beat in the Las Vegas Bowl later that same year, and 2005 SDSU(5-7), Bronco's first year of rebuilding after Crowton's disaster.

CordonBleu
Park City, UT

GO_COUGARS!

Losing in the fashion BYU lost in 2011, mostly on self-inflicted meltdowns, was embarrassing. Losing two games on the final play of the game on a blocked FG and a FG that hit the upright, after out playing the Utes, was disappointing, but hardly embarrassing.

Not even being good enough to play in a bowl is what's really embarrassing.

Utah winning the one game battle, doesn't change the fact that BYU has won the season-long war 5 of the last 8 seasons, including both seasons during the Independent/PAC 12 era.

One game doesn't not a season make.

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

It's interesting that byu fans point to UTAH's PAC-12 record in a vain-attempt to ridicule them, yet when byu's record against the 5 PAC-12 teams they've played over the same 2-year period-of-time is exposed, they then immediately tangent-off and discuss what byu did against PAC-10 teams, PRIOR to UTAH's entry into the conference, etc. 2 entirely different conversations, either of which we UTAH fans are happy to discuss.

Per this particular conversation, in getting to their 2-3 record against The PAC-12, byu has wins against 2 teams which finished at the bottom of the conference and got absolutely brutally curb-stomped at home against the only 2 teams which finished their season with a winning record. Also, they're 0-2 against UTAH during this same stretch.

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

"Losing in the fashion BYU lost in 2011, mostly on self-inflicted meltdowns, was embarrassing. Losing two games on the final play of the game on a blocked FG and a FG that hit the upright, after out playing the Utes, was disappointing, but hardly embarrassing."

The self-inflicted "meltdowns" occurred on UTAH's side, NOT on byu's. Among others, up 24-7 in the 4th-QTR, UTAH enabled byu to drive down the field and score a TD by committing 2 unforced PFs. During byu's final-drive, UTAH had byu down to 4th-and-long and their 2 RESERVE safeties committed a Football 101 error in allowing byu WR to get behind them on a 47-YD 1st-down play. Were our 2 FR All-America safeties in the game, instead, byu WR NEVER gets behind, guaranteed.

Per the final moments in concluding the game, byu should never have been given the 2nd FG-Attempt, per the rule cited by the ref. He referenced "non-participants" on the field [i.e., UTAH-Fans]. The closest "non-participants" to the football/Falslev ON the field were none other than bronco mendenhall and others from byu's sideline. Offsetting-penalties--Game over.

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

[Cont'd]--

Not to mention, UTAH had JWIV out, both safeties and myriad others. Having an banged-up QB is hardly the equal of this. UTAH had a commanding lead and just simply removed foot from pedal, up 24-7 in the 4th-QTR.

The play of the game, however, involved a FORCED TO by UTAH. byu fans insist the snap over rn's head resulting in ML's fumble-return for a TD was purely the result of a fluke, unforced mental-error on the part of byu's C.

Not so fast. If one were to review the footage, one would immediately see what actually occurred. Lined-up directly over C was none other than Star Lotulelei, himself. I observed this same occurrence take place, game-in and game-out, although it typically resulted in a false-start. byu's C was terrified, scared to death, actually, of what was about to occur to him at the hands of this BEAST lined-up directly in front of him. His focus immediately left his primary-responsibility of cleanly snapping the ball to rn and, instead, rested exclusively upon how he could possibly survive Star and live to play yet another down.

AZUTE1
Mesa, AZ

"Not even being good enough to play in a bowl is what's really embarrassing."

Yeah, 1st missed bowl game since '02 hardly, by merely 1 game, hardly constitutes a trend. LOL

During this current BCS Era, both UTAH/byu have reached 11 bowl games. While 2X BCS Bowling/WINNING UTAH is a resounding 10-1, byu has struggled mightily to even stay above .500 at 6-5.

"Utah winning the one game battle, doesn't change the fact that BYU has won the season-long war 5 of the last 8 seasons, including both seasons during the Independent/PAC 12 era."

You forgot to mention the qualifier, namely, that byu has played against a weaker SOS, annually.

Since byu rarely ever beats a good team, they've absolutely needed the likes of bottom-feeders Weber State, Hawaii, Idaho, Idaho State, NMSU, etc., in order to ensure they'd qualify for bowl-eligibility, in the first place. I'm 100% certain, SJSU was also scheduled for this same, identical reason and last year they unexpectedly happened to be a good team which, per 99.99% of the time occurs when byu plays against a good team, naturally resulted in a loss.

mussingaround
Palo Alto, CA

AZUTE1

What's really interesting that Utah fans are so embarrassed by their PAC 12 record, they don't even want to talk about it.

Here's a summary:

2011 4-5 8th; 2012 3-6 9th; 7-11 overall with not a single win over a PAC 12 foe with a winning record, 0 for 8, and 2 losses to PAC 12 teams with losing records, including 10-loss Colorado, one of the worst teams in the country.

U 90
Corona, CA

@SportsFan "The truth is, the Utes have only ever won 3+ games in the same NCAA tournament 3 times (1944, 1997 and 1998), and the 1944 tournament was the absolutes weakest tournament in NCAA history.

Years with 2 NCAA Tourny wins
Utah 44, 61, 66, 81, 83, 91, 96, 97, 98, 05
BYU 81, 11

Years with 3 NCAA Tourny wins
Utah 44, 61, 97, 98
BYU never

Years with 5 NCAA Tourny wins
Utah 98
BYU never

By the way, the national championship I was referring to in an earlier post was the 1947 NIT which was the strongest field of teams that year.

Truth Machine
Salt Lake City, UT

U 90

Not surprisingly, your "facts" are incorrect.

In 1981, BYU beat #11-seed Princeton 60-51, #3 UCLA 78-55, and #2 Notre Dame 51-50, before losing to Ralph Sampson's #1-seed Virginia 74-60.

Utah's 1947 NIT championship has never been officially recognized as a national championship by anybody except Utah fans.

In 1944, the Helms Athletic Foundation selected Army(15-0) as national champion, not Utah(6-1).

In 1947, the Helms Athletic Foundation selected Holy Cross(27-3) as national champion, not Utah(19-5).

Utah had a great year in 1998, but as usual, lost to Kentucky in the tournament.

Snack PAC
Olympus Cove, Utah

U 90

You left a few out; here, let me help you.

Number of NCAA tournament wins since Bogut, the last remnant of the Majerus era, left in 2005:
BYU FOUR
Utah ZERO

Number of NCAA Sweet Sixteens since 2005:
BYU one
Utah none

Number of NCAA Tournaments since 2005:
BYU six
Utah one

Number of 20+ win seasons 2005:
BYU eight
Utah one

Face it, your basketball program hasn't been relevant in almost a decade.

sammyg
Springville, UT

Azute1 said...

"It's interesting that byu fans point to UTAH's PAC-12 record in a vain-attempt to ridicule them."

The Ute meltdown continues.

There's nothing vain about the truth. I can see it's kind of hard being a sad Ute and having an embarrassing record these days and not realizing that U started the whole process in the first place. Let me explain...

The real problem Ute fans have is knowing most of them set this whole joke up three years ago by hyping their invite and at the same time taunting and ridiculing BYU's non-invitation to a conference and then its subsequent foray into independence.

The only thing many BYU fans said contrary to all of this hype was that they felt the Utes would not match up and compete well.

Three years later...

The Ute Pac12 record stands on its own merits. Poignant, ironic and pretty funny at the same time.

Going bowl-less was last year's punch line. (rim-shot please... bam...)

"vain-attempt"??? Yeah, sure, uh-huh, whatever.

Today's increased level of excuse making and spin is unprecedented.

Obviously 'inventory' shortage is a touchy subject in Uteville. LOL

U 90
Corona, CA

Truth, my bad I've corrected the numbers below. Makes a big difference:

Years with 2 NCAA Tourny wins
10 for Utah 44, 61, 66, 81, 83, 91, 96, 97, 98, 05
2 for BYU 81, 11

Years with 3 NCAA Tourny wins
4 for Utah 44, 61, 97, 98
1 for BYU 81

Years with 5 NCAA Tourny wins
one for Utah 98
zero for BYU

So you are now relying on "The Helms Foundation" to determine the national champ. What about your neighbor Barney, he's pretty credible, we ought to see what he thinks. Good grief.

It's this simple. The winner of the NIT tourny was the consensus NC through 1949. Then there was a game fixing scandal in 49-50 which caused all of the top teams to move away from the NIT to the NCAA tourny. Beginning in 1951 the winner of the NCAA tourny was the consensus NC. Which means Utah's 1944 NCAA win was not an NC but the 1947 NIT win was.

The Helms Foundation.... good one.

U 90
Corona, CA

Snack,

The conversation was never about the last 10 years. I freely admit Utah has been lacking with only three trips to the NCAA over that span. BYU has been better over the past 10.

The reason I was referencing Utah's full tournament history is because your buddy Sports Fan was inferring that Utah's historical tournament performance was not really that impressive. I'm simply pointing out that the Utes have actually done quite well and much better than BYU.

I admit BYU is better last 10. Are you man enough to admit that Utah is in an entirely different class than BYU all-time?

Cougars - Wise Older Brothers
Anaheim, CA

U 90

"So you are now relying on "The Helms Foundation" to determine the national champ. What about your neighbor Barney, he's pretty credible, we ought to see what he thinks. Good grief."

The Helms Athletic Foundation was founded in 1936 by Bill Schroeder and Paul Helms and based in Los Angeles. It put together a panel of experts to select National Champion teams and make All-America team selections in a number of college sports including football and basketball. The panel met annually to vote on a National Champion until 1982 and retroactively ranked football teams dating back to 1883 and basketball back to 1901. The Helms Foundation also operated a Hall of Fame for both college sports.

The Helms Foundation is a well-respected national organization.

Your neighbor Barney is a crimson-glasses wearing Ute fan.

It's laughable how Ute fans define "relevant" history: everything from 2005 to the beginning of time for basketball; nothing before 2004 for football.

Utah does have an edge overall in basketball, but unlike Utah football, at least BYU basketball has some pre-2004 history worth talking about.

2 NIT Championships
1 John Wooden Award Winner

BYU also leads the series 129-125

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

"BYU also leads the series 129-125"

I didn't realize how lopsided things had become. I sure hope I live to see the day when Utah climbs out of that seemingly insurmountable deficit to even up the series record...

Frantic & Emotional
philadelphia , PA

I think ute fans should just change the subject on this one. It's not BYU fan's fault that your football and basketball programs stink and are in decline. You should direct your anger at Dr Hill.

Maybe instead you can talk about Skiing or Women's Gymnastics?

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

@wayfarer

"Sorry Utes. Hate to be the bearer of hard data. The gold standard for measuring the health of college athletics is the Director's Cup. ... Worse, Utah's 2013 academic ranking in US News is 125. Down from 2012. Again, bottom third of the PAC 12 conference.

Ute fans need to ask themselves how long they will continue to support their athletic programs (football) when they year in and year out finish in the bottom third. Pinch yourselves all you want but the data does not support Hill's ludicrous pipe dream that Utah will be competing regularly for athletic titles in any sport."

--------

So give up and go back to the MWC? Talk about "ludicrous pipe dream" from a Cougar.


The recruiting "data" shows Utah is the flagship football program in the State and needs to develop depth to compete against the PAC-12. Basketball might be headed that way, we'll see over the next two years.

I supported the Utes through the 80s, compared to where we were I for one think we're headed in the right direction.

Go UTES!!

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

@Duckhunter

BYU is 2-3 vs PAC-12 over the last two years, wins are over 3 win teams. BYU has a losing record under Bronco vs BCS teams. The biggest win was over 8-5 Oregon State in 2009, your best team since 1996. Since then your biggest win has been over 7-7 Georgia Tech. In 2011 you had a 3 game schedule and you lost to all three teams (Texas, Utah, and TCU).

That's comparable to what Utah has done over the same period, the difference head-to-head we OWN you.

Saying you can compete in the PAC-12 when your team is OWNED by Utah and TCU who have struggled is ridiculous.

Swoop
Salt Lake City, UT

2fer

"I didn't realize how lopsided things had become. I sure hope I live to see the day when Utah climbs out of that seemingly insurmountable deficit to even up the series record..."

Don't kid yourself; with that train wreck of a program U have on the hill, the deficit is insurmountable.

BYU owns U in basketball!

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