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Community of Christ recommends marriage, ordination for same-sex couples

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  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    May 21, 2013 11:07 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    "Matthew 19:5 "

    Jesus isn't saying that *every* man ought to get married to a woman. He's talking in generalities. In fact, that passage about "eunuchs" specifically lists three types of men who should NOT marry women.

    "You disregard the Old Covenant like the 10 commandments? "

    I must have missed the commandment that said "thou shalt not be homosexual".

    ----------

    "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

    The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

    Romans 13: 8-10

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    "God distinguishes father and mother"

    The Bible didn't have in vitro fertilization -- heck, I don't think the Bible even mentioned adoption. Are these then immoral?

    "unnatural sexual intercourse, homosexual intercourse. "

    You're making a huge leap from "unnatural" to "homosexual". Careful, your personal prejudice is showing.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    May 21, 2013 12:30 a.m.

    It's a crazy mixed up shook up world and so is Lola. That's show biz. That's entertainment. I think that they need to go out side in to the light to see the the Son.

  • Still a Mormon Greenfield, IN
    May 20, 2013 7:22 p.m.

    I would not be surprised to see the C of C actually grow but the demographics change dramatically. Or even a seperate church form.

    Though I wonder about Church sites owned by the C of C. Who knows how that will turn out.

  • Alex 1 Tucson, AZ
    May 20, 2013 3:37 p.m.

    When you don't believe in the doctrine of celestial marriage, and the continuation of seeds forever and ever (procreation in eternity), then it is easy to cave as we see the Community of Christ doing. I'll tell you what. As soon as God changes men to be able to procreate with men and women with women, then we can revisit this talk about extending the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage to them. Until then, it is all a moot point.

    I think it is safe to say that any member of the LDS Church that is at odds with the doctrine of the family as specified in the revelations, the scriptures, the current policy on plural marriage, and the Proclamation on the Family, is either on shaky ground with his testimony, is willfully ignorant, or is in outright apostasy.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    May 20, 2013 3:06 p.m.

    RE; amazondoc, In Matthew 19:5 Jesus is quoting (Gen 2:24) “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh”. The family unit.

    &You disregard the Old Covenant like the 10 commandments? Thou shalt not kill (murder),Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    Paul quotes #5 or(Eph 6:2,3). Honor your Father and Mother”(not significant Other),which is the first commandment with a promise. God distinguishes father and mother(the family unit) from all other persons on earth, next to Himself.

    RE: Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude 7,the New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines heteros as “illicit”or “other flesh,” and defined the phrase as “[other] than that appointed by God for the fulfillment of natural desire”, departing from the course of nature. What the men of Sodom did was unnatural sexual intercourse, homosexual intercourse.

    In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Romans 1:27

  • amazondoc USA, TN
    May 20, 2013 9:40 a.m.

    @sharrona --

    Matthew 19:5 is in favor of forming loving commitments, not a condemnation of homosexuality.

    Check out Matthew 19:12, in which Jesus lists those people who should NOT marry: "For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:12)

    Some Bible scholars believe that "eunuchs who were born that way" refers to men born homosexuals.

    "Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless."

    Hebrews 8:13 : "By calling this covenant 'new,' he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

    "Paul neither condones slavery nor sanctions revolt against masters"

    He tells Paul to obey their earthly masters. That's pretty clear.

    "Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. "

    "Sexual immorality" is not the same thing as "homosexuality", sorry. "Sexual immorality" is an incredibly vague term which covers a LOT of unspecified territory.

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    May 20, 2013 9:31 a.m.

    @GL W8 --

    ""We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly"

    It's interesting that you should mention the part about "translated correctly".

    In fact, many Bible scholars believe that the Bible passages supposedly condemning homosexuality have actually been translated incorrectly from their original languages. These passages may actually refer to things like temple prostitution, or to *straight* men lying with men ("against their nature"), or to idolatry in general, or to abuse rather than love, and so on, depending on the passage in question. There's a whole lot about accurate and inaccurate translations of those passages on the web, if you're truly interested.

    "mortal men; free to express their own opinions"

    Right. And IMHO it's a big mistake to treat the sayings of mortal men as though they were infallible.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    May 19, 2013 5:10 p.m.

    All th9s proves is the apostasy was real,

    Man made churches are following man made doctrines.

    Popularity has won over following true Doctrines of God.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    May 19, 2013 12:19 p.m.

    To: Contrarius, Jesus himself never said a single word against homosexuality. Wrong,
    (Jesus) said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE=(gynaiki) and they twain shall be one flesh?(Mt 19:5).

    RE: consider the Old Testament on this: The Holiness Code contained different types of commands. Some were related to dietary regulations or to ceremonial cleanliness, and these have been done away with in the New Testament (Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:1-3). Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless. Thus incest, child sacrifice, homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, and the like, are still abominations before God.

    (Col 3:22) Paul neither condones slavery nor sanctions revolt against masters, He calls on slaves and master to show Christian principle in their relation and attempt to change the institution within.

    (Jude 1:7) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

  • G L W8 SPRINGVILLE, UT
    May 19, 2013 9:03 a.m.

    Contrarius: what you say only verifies the accuracy of Joseph Smith's statement "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly": hence the need for current revelation, prophets, and taking the Holy Spirit as our guide. Only time will tell who's right on the subject of homosexuality--Paul and the modern prophets, or those who want to change the "natural use."

    Meanwhile, those who insist that the Bible is God's final and complete revelation will also insist on ignoring passages that don't agree with them. Quite a contradiction in behavior, in my opinion.

    Incidentally, Paul--and modern prophets--were and are mortal men; free to express their own opinions. As to God, he teaches "line upon line" so we have the opportunity to learn and progress through interaction with his "Holy Spirit". Have we learned about the evils of slavery and degrading women? Yes. Have we learned about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman? Apparently not.

  • MormonSean Salt Lake City, UT
    May 19, 2013 12:08 a.m.

    higv,

    They do not have "some" or any of the keys.

    "That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness."

    "That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."

    Those who rebel from the Savior's one true church cannot retain such authority, powers, or keys. The work will not be frustrated and God is an unchanging God. Things are revealed to us as we accept them so the men of the church change over time, but the law does not. The law cannot be sin one day and righteousness the next.

    Family is the divine plan, patterned after our heavenly family. It's not ours to change.

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    May 18, 2013 8:30 p.m.

    @donn --

    "There many Bible believing churches... who don't agree."

    Sure.

    And that's an important point to remember: religious people disagree on many important issues.

    Many religious people are against gay marriage. But many other religious people are NOT against it.

    @G L W8 --

    "Do the churches you list rip pages out of the Bible when it disagrees with them"

    If we actually agreed with every single word in the Bible, then we would still have things like slavery and polygamy. So be careful about assuming that "more literal" equals "more holy".

    Also, remember that the Old Testament laws were supplanted by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:6-13 and others) in the New Testament. So we really shouldn't even consider the Old Testament on this.

    And guess what -- Jesus himself never said a single word against homosexuality. In fact, homosexuality isn't actually mentioned anywhere in the four gospels.

    **Paul** spoke against homosexuality -- but Paul was neither Jesus, nor God. And Paul also believed in slavery (Col 3:22) and thought that women were inferior to men (1 Cor 14:34 and others) -- so do you really want to insist that Paul was infallible?

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    May 18, 2013 7:26 p.m.

    I remember visiting a member on my mission who went to an RLDS church when he just moved or was visiting and asked were the Elders Quorum meant before he was corrected. Humor there. I remember reading my mission journal were some elderly guy came in shorts to church I think he meant to go to the Catholic church. Dementia setting in I guess.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    May 18, 2013 7:21 p.m.

    I attended an RLDS service on my mission. Sang spirit of God there and in our own ward meeting. Seems like they go to and fro on every wind of doctrine. Interesting I visited Nauvoo a few years ago and they mentioned Joseph ordaining his son as his successor. I was thinking where were the keys? They don't have many of the keys.

    After they ordained women I think a major breakoff happened. Same when someone not descended from Joseph became President. At least they are friendly with LDS church now. Difference in them is how they change with the times socially.

  • G L W8 SPRINGVILLE, UT
    May 18, 2013 5:57 p.m.

    Question to Contrarius: Do the churches you list rip pages out of the Bible when it disagrees with them, as some other denominations have been known to do?

  • donn layton, UT
    May 18, 2013 5:43 p.m.

    RE: Contrarius ,Yet another church proves that you can be religious and still support gay marriage.
    There many Bible believing churches (Non-denominal)Southern Baptists and Roman Catholic along with conservative Lutheran (LCMS, LCWS) and Reformed Baptists Churches who don’t agree.

    Christian mainline churches have changed. I go to Military ceremonies several times a year, and the Military Christian Chaplains rarely pray in Jesus Christ name do to political correctness.

    When I was in Vietnam the Christians(Catholic/Protestant)and Jewish Chaplains were much more orthodox.
    Today you have non-Christian Chaplains in the Military ,i.e.. Unitarians, Mormon and even Wiccans.

  • Purple and Gold Las Vegas, NV
    May 18, 2013 1:17 p.m.

    As a member of CofC they got it wrong. Some management and less than 1% (USA Conference) who used a 'consensus process" instead of a standard vote are pushing this. Driven to be of the world instead of in it. Very sad.

  • Contrarius Lebanon, TN
    May 18, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    Yet another church proves that you can be religious and still support gay marriage.

    These guys are not alone, you know. Here's a partial list of churches that support gay marriage, or allow each diocese to decide independently. Not a complete list, but it'll give you an idea anyway:

    Anglican Church of Canada

    Lutheran and Reformed Churches
    --Church of Sweden
    --Church of Denmark
    --Church of Iceland
    --Danish Church of Argentina
    --Evangelical Lutheran Church of Canada
    --United Church of Canada
    --Protestant Church of Germany
    --Protestant Church of the Netherlands
    --Church of Norway
    --Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

    Presbyterian
    --Presbyterian Church USA (blesses same-sex unions, but does not perform marriages)

    Congregational polities
    --Quakers -- in several countries
    --United Church of Christ
    --Canadian Unitarian Council
    --Unitarian Universalist Association
    --Metropolitan Community Church
    --Mennonite Church of the Netherlands
    --Affirming Pentecostal Church International

    Mixed-polity and other polities
    --Swedenborgian Church of North America
    --Uniting Church of Australia
    --United Church of Canada (individual ministers)
    --New Apostolic Church

    And in Judaism:
    --Reform Judaism
    --Reconstructionist Judaism (individual rabbis)
    --Conservative Judaism (USA)

  • I know it. I Live it. I Love it. Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2013 8:33 p.m.

    I'm happy to have a prophet of God on the Earth today, just as in the ancient times recorded in the Holy Bible... to reveal to us God's will and plan for us.

    We know the truth because we know it comes from our Heavenly Father; we will not stray from Him or His work.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2013 5:31 p.m.

    @Cats
    As if your branch is the authority on marriage... the CofC rejected polygamy from the get-go.

  • AZ Blue & Red Gilbert, AZ
    May 17, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    Glad they changed their name from RLDS to C of C. Leaves no recognition or perceived ties to the LDS church. This is typical of the C of C. Some great people as I served in the Independence mission but they tend to go with the flow or politically correct ideas of the day. To be honest I am surprised they are still going as I know they have struggled both financially as well as membership wise. Again some great people and friends but just another more left politically correct Christian church.

    As for Red Corvette.

    The change will come when adultery, theft, robbery, prostitution, murder and various other commandments and laws of God are also changed and accepted. I am not holding my breath for that day to come too soon. (or ever)

  • FT1/SS Virginia Beach, VA
    May 17, 2013 5:14 p.m.

    One of several reasons why their church grows at a snail's pace.

  • TOO Sanpete, UT
    May 17, 2013 4:48 p.m.

    Red Corvette,

    I'm guessing never. They never have accepted it, and they never will.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    May 17, 2013 4:26 p.m.

    It is for this reason, as well as others, that this Church is on the verge of disintigration and has clearly completely lost its way. It has been close to a total schism and losing whole congregations for a long time. There are many members who have left and come into the LDS Church. I expect many more.