@ Donnyou speak of getting drunk at communion. The small amount of wine
consumed in communion or in the sacrament would not intoxicate a child. The use
of wine was in ancient time was not prohibited in scripture and because of the
lack of refrigeration would make grape juice unsuitable for storage. how man comes to the lord has never been the issue only that he comes. the
fields are white and ready to harvest, and the spirit of the lord will guide
those who have eyes to see and ears to hear to the lord. Those of us who have
already been blessed to find our way need to stand as witnesses to those who
As I was reading this I could not but think back many years ago as a young
missionary sister how much I loved my mission. I was able to find a family like
he described here as the father came up to me and my capanion came up to us and
asked about the book we were holding in our hands. We started to tell him about
it and he told us that he had seen someone holding it just the other day on the
bus they were riding. He felt the spirit touch his heart and wanted to know more
about the Book of Mormon. So we went and taught his family the next day and
three weeks later they became Members of the Church. Love to read things like
People that have downloaded and read The First Book of Napoleon have also
reported some conversion stories. Exciting times.
Maybe we should have missionaries actually distribute copies of the real Book of
Mormon outside the play.
@FractionalTheromMormons believe in grace after all you can do. You accept
His grace after you have done all ordinances, temple work, going on a mission,
marrying in the temple. My God doesn't not require my works. Using the term
"Christian" is more recent in the Mormon church. 30 years ago when
Mormon friends asked what religion I was I'd say "Christian." To
this they replied, "what is that?" Mormons have tried in the past to
push away from mainstream Christianity and now as their church is suffering in
decreasing members they want to align themselves with Christians, yet they have
very different beliefs. Mormons believe God is made of flesh, Christians
don't. Mormons believe Christ and Satan are brothers, Christians do not.
Mormons believe Christ atoned for our sin in the garden, Christians believe it
happened on the cross. So again I will have to say you are a Mormon and I am a
Christian. I am always confused when Mormons say they are Christian yet they
won't worship Christ in Christian church and stay away from Christian
bookstores & literature. Why is that?
@YouKnowImAChristianRightFrom BOM “ Behold, here
are the waters of Mormon and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of
God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another's
burdens, that they may be light; Yea, and are willing to mourn with those
that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand
as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye
may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered
with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life If
this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the
name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant
with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out
his Spirit more abundantly upon you? And now when the people had heard
these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire
of our hearts.”The name recalls a sacred event
To another fellow convert, tears !
Christianity has obviously never been one great big happy family.
My testimony starts with my belief in Christ. I know He lives, and I know that
through His grace I can be saved. This is the all-encompassing whole of my
testimony. I also know, from my own spiritual experiences, that the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His restored church. I know this BECAUSE I
know that the Book of Mormon is true. The promise is there - ask, and ye shall
receive. This is important, because I know where to go to get the required
ordinances. I can say, "I am a Christian", and I can also say, "I
am a Mormon." I believe in Christ. He is my Savior. I accept His atoning
sacrifice and His grace on my behalf. Thus I am a Christian. I am a member of
His church. Thus I am a Mormon also. I find no incongruity between the terms.
If one proclaims, "I am a Mormon", they really are proclaiming, "I
am a Christian, and a member of His church."
This story is about a man who converted to something by believing a church is
true and book is true and then calls himself a Mormon. So different to when a
person who converts to becoming a Bible believing Christian. A person coming to
the saving knowledge of Christ admits they are a sinner, repents and then
accepts Christ death on the cross (not in the Garden as Mormons believe) for
their salvation. No where did I see in this man's conversion to Mormonism,
that's probably why Mormons call themselves Mormons and are not Christians.
Mormons testimony is always, "I know the church is true, I know the BOM is
true, I believe Joseph is a prophet". As a Christian I, "confess with
your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you
believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are
saved." Romans 10:9-10. That's why I can say, "I am a
Christian." and why Mormons say, "You know I'm a Mormon right."
Regarding the wine/grape juice debate- I'm not too worried about what Jesus
drank. In the law of Moses, pork was forbidden. Later that ceased to be the
case, due at least in part, I believe, to the revelation Peter received shortly
before the baptism of Cornelius (Acts 10:11-17). It is evident to me that God
can change His health code to fit the needs of his children at a given time.
Durning Jesus' time, maybe alcohol wasn't so bad. Maybe it was safer
than other things, given that alcohol kills bacteria. There weren't cars
back then, so drunk driving wasn't a problem like it is today, and maybe
that had something to do with the change. Maybe Pork wasn't safe before
because people didn't know about trichinosis and such, and it was less
likely that pork would be cooked thoroughly enough. Or maybe there's some
other reason I don't know about. The point is, there is biblical precedent
for God changing what is and is not forbidden food-wise in the past. So I am
grateful for modern revelation to tell me God's will now.
RE: zoar63, the LDS Sacrament, partaking of water instead of wine would
represent the blood of Christ. else the saints couldn't have gotten*drunk
on it during communion (1Co 11:21).(D&C 17:22-23),“It is
expedient that the church meet together often to partake of the bread and the
wine in rememberance of the Lord Jesus ,and the Elder or priest shall
administer it…” The wine . “Wine for the sacrament should be
*unfermented, pure and preferably of your own make.( see D&C 26:1; 86:1).
The D&C references are found in the concordance of the JST(inspired
version) removed from current D&C editions today.
or else the saints couldn't have gotten drunk on it during communion (1Co
11:21).But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.(Mt 15:9)"Blood has two components red cells
composing the cellular, and plasma the liquid portion made up of plasma
proteins and water. If you were to separate whole blood into its components you
would have a watery pale yellow liquid on top and a clump of red cells at the
bottom. So in the LDS Sacrament, partaking of water instead of wine would
represent the blood of Christ.
YouKnowImAChristianRight,"....Why this woman felt she needed to
let this man know she was "a Mormon" is kind of strange. Why the need to
holds that theirs is the one church God himself authorized. Being a
‘chosen’ people is not exactly unprecedented in history. But a
divinely authorized sect persuaded of its divine destiny in an era when
Christian denominationalism has been waning unavoidably grates against the
larger Christian world.Mormons, of course, don’t see
themselves the way others see them. Who does?
atl134,My mistake. I should have said ''D&C 89
specifically lists that 'strong drinks' are not to be consumed"
instead of alcohol. Of course, modern LDS ecclesiastical leaders have
specifically stated what the term 'strong drinks' entails.
This about a man who converted to a church, said a church is true and believes
the Book of Mormon to be true. Why this woman felt she needed to let this
man know she was "a Mormon" is kind of strange. Why the need to
advertise? Four points about Christians: 1.)They come to God without a
cleaned up act, they come as sinners and admit and confess they are sinners. 2.)
They accept Christ as their Redeemer who suffered and died on the cross for
their sins (Christ didn't atone for our sins in the Garden). 3.) They
believe CHRIST is truth. Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the
life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6. 4.)This
person then calls themselves a CHRISTIAN.So did this man convert to a
CHURCH or to CHRIST? I never saw that stated although I know many will say infer
that. But every conversion or testimony I hear from a Mormon is that they
converted by "knowing the BOM was true" or that "I know the church
is true." Christ is always missing in those testimonies.
History has shown that the louder and longer the ridicule or persecution in a
given area, the faster the Church grows in that area. This play is being
performed all across the US so the work is progressing all across the US.
Kudos to Brother Marcus for seeking and following the truth, and especially to
the woman who had the courage to open her mouth to a friend about what she
believed.I would love to hear him speak about his conversion. Great
story. Thanks for sharing it. And shame on those who use the comments section
as their hobby horse for tangential and irrelevant stuff.
@killpack"D&C 89 specifically lists that alcohol is not to be
consumed."Actually... 5 That inasmuch as any man
drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in
the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up
your sacraments before him. 6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure
wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. 7 And, again, strong
drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.it
does still prescribe wine for the Sacrament. It wasn't until a long time
after 1833 that it was totally forbidden.
There are similar stories out of NYC after the musical open there. From personal
experience, much anti-Mormon literature sparks an interest to find out what all
the shouting is about.
Stories like these reconfirms my testimony of the Gospel and that this is the
Lord's church. Tears formed in my eyes as I read this article and could
commiserate with what he experienced.
Because of the way the Word of Wisdom came about, and because the Lord mentions,
"In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts
of conspiring men in the last days," I think there is a good chance that the
proscription of alcohol will be lifted when the time comes that there are no
longer "conspiring men" around. And I, for one, would welcome the
permission to enjoy a little wine with a good meal. But whether or not that
ever becomes the case, I frankly look at this as another indication of the
validity of the LDS Church; the claim is that the church is based on modern
revelation, appropriate for our time, and I certainly think this is appropriate
for our time.
Yes, we may likely be the only group in history that has this particular stance
on alcohol under direction of a prophet, but I believe it is inspired for our
day -- not as a temporal law for our "good health" but as a means to
develop spiritual strength and in being a light or example to others. (Matt.
5)I love the conversion story.
I for one never vilified this musical. I never watched and and probably
won't in the future. I knew any attention to the LDS Church would be good
because the truth and happiness of the Gospel will touch the hearts of those
looking for it.
Ah, the alcoholic beverage debate. Let's just get a few things straight.
Anciently, there does not appear to be any mandate to abstain from the
consumption of alcohol in the LDS Canon. Jesus, does in fact, appear to drink
wine, as do other Biblical and Book of Mormon characters. Modernly, on the other
hand, it is a completely different story. D&C 89 specifically lists that
alcohol is not to be consumed. Originally, as has been pointed out, this was
merely treated as a recommendation, a 'word of wisdom' to live by.
Currently, however, LDS ecclesiastical leaders have clearly stated that sobriety
is not only wise council, it is a REQUIREMENT to be in good standing in the eyes
of The Church. If you don't believe in The D&C or in modern LDS
leadership, that's fine. You can believe in whatever you want to believe
in. But drinking alcohol is most definitely inconsistent with current, modern
LDS doctrine, however much it may have been acceptable in the past. And some
LDS, if not many, will struggle with that. I certainly did for awhile. Thank
God, I no longer do.
My friend and I were brought into the Church through anti-Mormon literature that
piqued our interest to know more. We've both been happily married for
decades - each with 7 healthy children.
donn, you can make the scriptures appear to support just about cause you want
them to, and you could still be wrong, but then I think you already know that.
Its a good thing to have some inspired guidance. Read 2Ne.9:28-29
RE: Rational. Wine was used by Noah, Gen 9:20,21. Melchizedek, Gen 14:18.
Isaac Gen 27:25. John 2:1-11, Jesus turns water into wine not wine into water,
And see Mt 11:19 (wine bibber/drinker). Mogen David is popular for the Jewish
Passover in modern times. The wine that was used in the New
Testament by our Lord and the early disciples was alcoholic or else the saints
couldn't have gotten drunk on it during communion (1Co 11:21).But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of
"In the scriptures it talks a lot about new wine(commonly referred to our
day as grape juice)"Do you sincerely believe that during
Biblical times that they drank grape juice instead of wine? Well, if that makes
you sleep better.Wine and beer have historically been safer to store
than water. Water, left for a while will become unsafe to drink. Beer and wine
came about in part for those reasons.The additional
"characteristics" were a bonus....
donn"It is possible to drink in moderation and never violate the
teachings of Scripture."I'll bet it is possible to cross
the freeway on foot, too, Donn, but it isn't a safe bet.
For wjutjck,Biblical wine was fermented and it was alcoholic. For
you to call it just "grape juice" is either a misunderstanding or
disingenuous. Even BYU publications confirm this fact. (See "Wine at Masada
and in the New Testament" among many others.) Yes, Jesus drank alcoholic
wine. Also, in the Book of Mormon it is clear that the Nephites had
wine.The Word of Wisdom as you and I know it wasn't revealed
until after the Restoration and even then wasn't enforced as a measure of
worthiness until the beginning of the 20th Century.
First that other story, now this…Parker and Stone's efforts are
seriously backfiring, it would seem. And I couldn't be happier about it.
great story! Good man.
For Donn,In the scriptures it talks a lot about new wine(commonly
referred to our day as grape juice). Grape Juice(unfermented) has the good
nutrients our bodies can use to help us be more healthy.
I’ve heard unusual conversion stories from many different faiths and while
The Book of Mormon musical may seem like an unlikely instrument of conversion,
don’t scoff. It’s convenient to dismiss it by saying you can talk
yourself into believing just about anything you want to believe. But the
conversion experience is often very real and lifechanging as it is inexplicable
to those who have it."The wind blows wherever it pleases. You
hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So
it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:8)
Does it matter the length of his hair, or the color of his tie, or the status of
his life? What matters is that he has decided to make a change, to follow a
beautiful intention of his heart, and to make his life a bit better than it was
before. For all purposes...he, like others who are members of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a missionary. I'm sure the
creators were not thinking "conversion to 'Mormonism'" when
they created this play. Interesting how good can come out of something like
I understand how you might feel this is all great and wonderful but it kind of
feels like reading the name of a lottery winner in the news. No one considers
the names of everyone who didn't win, or buy in as is the case here.
Miracles do happen, but no less so when the powerball kicks in.
Well written story, Emmilie. Thank you for sharing it.I am grateful
for the transformation we call conversion.
To JoeBlow: No, unless he was going to become a missionary.
A very nice story. The Lord is calling in the elect in preparation for the
second coming. Those who humble themselves and sincerely ask will learn of its
truth through the power of the Spirit.
What a great story. Touched my heart today. Thanks!
I would not go to the musical, but for those who have not discovered the LDS
church, it seems as though in many cases, that negative is turning into a
positive. The Lord is so able to sift through and find those who are seeking.
What a wonderful man and he is really serving with his heart, mind and soul.
Congrats to him.
I love these stories about people who have been converted as a result of the
musical. Missionary work definately comes in different, and even unintended,
A wonderful and beautiful account. Thank you very much for sharing!
I'm not at all surprised by the stories coming out about converts from the
Book of Mormon Musical. It's just like the Godmakers. It will bring a lot
of people to the truth although that was not the intention of the writers and
producers. I have no doubt we will start to hear stories flooding in about more
conversions from those who get their curiosity peaked and are lead to the truth.
Brother Gorbett also has my admiration. What a missionary he was!
This story reminds me of my own mother's. She saw the anti-Mormon film,
'The God Makers'. It gave her a MUCH bigger desire to learn more. As
a result, she married a member of the 'Mormon' church and has raised
all her children as members of the church. Four of her children served missions
and four of her grandchildren have served or are serving missions for the
A wonderful account that touched my heart. Thank you.
Miracles are still happening and lives are being touched and change for the
better. Though many will still scoff and mock, the truth will continue to break
forth and permeate the lives of those who are sincerely seeking for answers.
Thanks for sharing this beautiful story.