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Comments about ‘BYU, Ute baseball: Cougars thump Utah 9-3 to nab win No. 20’

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Published: Tuesday, April 23 2013 11:16 p.m. MDT

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Solomon Levi
Alpine, UT

Naval Vet

"Utah has the superior academic and cultural qualities, and as for athletics, it was a football decision."

The PAC 12 is an ATHLETIC conference and it's not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah, including football, where the Utes are nothing but a flash-in-the-pan, johnny-come-lately program that has already proven that they're not good enough to compete in the PAC 12. U still haven't beaten a single PAC 12 team with a winning record.

"Superior academics" is a joke. BYU has the exact "High Research" standing as several Big 12 South teams that the PAC 10 were ready to accept with open arms until Texas A&M scuttled the deal. And in undergraduate programs, BYU dwarfs Utah.

The simple truth is, BYU wasn't invited to join the PAC 12 because of the religious bigotry of a few PAC 10 members and BYU's no Sunday play policy.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Solomon Levi, if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading the overall athletics head to head matchups this year, no? But they are not, they have been beaten 6-4 so far throughout the year. I'd say that leaves plenty of room for debate, and that the debate is pretty useless except to insecure fans. In my opinion they're pretty even overall, and both have a long way to go to be nationally respectable in overall athletic prowess. As far as the rivalry's annual champion, Utah gets the bragging rights this time, so better luck next year at having your "MUCH better" talk actually trying to have some substance.

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

StGtoSLC

"...if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading the overall athletics head to head matchups this year, no?"

Even though our friends on the hill like to pretend otherwise, head-to-head success DOES NOT measure overall success.

The Deseret Duel doesn't measure ALL Sports; for that, we turn to the National Association of College Directors of Athletics Cup, which measures ALL sports.

Current 2012-2013 Standings - through April 11th, not including the Women's Gymnastics or Men's Volleyball - #54 BYU, #78 Utah

Average Finish Since 1993-94 - #30 BYU, #61 Utah

Last 10 Years
2002-2003 BYU 45, Utah 56
2003-2004 BYU 29, Utah 55
2004-2005 BYU 27, Utah 55
2005-2006 BYU 31, Utah 56
2006-2007 BYU 26, Utah 60
2007-2008 BYU 41, Utah 82
2008-2009 BYU 47, Utah 51
2009-2010 BYU 36, Utah 75
2010-2011 BYU 37, Utah 71
2011-2012 BYU 43, Utah 74
2012-2013 BYU 54, Utah 78

Since 1993-1994 when the NACDA Cup was started, Utah has NEVER finished ahead of BYU in the Director's Cup.

BlueCoug
Orem, UT

phoenix

You might also point out that BYU's AVERAGE finish in the Director's Cup, 30th, is 7 places higher, than Utah's BEST finish, 37th, in 1997-1998.

On average, BYU has finished 31 places higher than Utah for the last 20 years, 29 places higher during the last 10 years. Only once has Utah been less than 10 places lower than BYU, in 2008-2009, when BYU placed 47th and Utah placed 51st. Of course, the next season returned to normal, with BYU finishing 39 places higher than Utah, with BYU 37th and Utah 75th.

As Solomon Levi correctly stated, it's not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah.

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@StGtoSLC "if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading the overall athletics head to head matchups this year, no?"

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while, right? Since the inception of the Deseret Duel, BYU has won four times, Utah now has won twice (and this is the first time in the last three years that Utah has won it, even though they have won the football part all three years, which is significant, since the football aspect is worth the most points).

Also, BYU's athletic teams won 140 championships while in the MWC.

Utah's athletic teams won 49.

So Solomon Levi had it right. It's not even debatable who has the better athletics program. Phoenix gives a great synopsis of that, too.

We'll give U this year. Ute fans need a little bit of positive news for their sports programs after no postseason in football or MBB and after the mess that is going on with the swimming program and the rugby program.

Hope that it all works out!

Who am I sir?
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@worf

"Utah is over their heads in the PAC 12"

Many would agree with what you say. For nearly two years now, Utah has finished in the bottom half of the league in almost all sports. (Almost never have they finished last!!)

Here are some considerations:
1) According to Wall Street article Utah made twice the revenue and profit compared to the Y last year - with only 50% share of TV and $0 from PAC-12 network.
2) As a result of #1 and donations they 1) built a softball stadium 2) built a track 3) will finish a state-of-th-art football/sports complex 4) started a basketball practice facility & 5) announced a student center with 3 pools plus anticipate expansion of football facilities.
3) Colorado came from the BCS Big 12. Utah is the only addition coming from a "mid major" conference.
4) The conference claims to be the Conference of Champions. And back it up with over 100 more national titles than any other conference. The competition is intense. ie. The men's tennis team will play the nations 18th ranked team - which is seeded 4th in the conference tournament. (to be continued)

Who am I sir?
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@worf

(continued from above)
The woman's basketball finished 6th. All 5 teams above them were ranked in the nation's top 25 teams. And on and on. In the past Utah could only dream of scheduling such teams maybe once or twice in a year.
4) Arizona has been in the PAC-10/12 for 30+ years. Never to have been in the Rose Bowl. Would they ever go back to a lesser conference? Consider "Independence"? Never and Never.
5) As a former Y basketball player, announcing the Y vs. Colorado State basketball game where Colorado was greaterly overmatched. From memory, This is what players dream of and play for. Playing in front of crowds against top opponents. (end semi-quote)
6) In short - for Utah fans, it is better to be in water that can be over our heads than to wade in water knee deep!

PS. If the Y is still independent in football in two years - it will be Army and BYU - no others. Perhaps it would help scheduling for each school to have three games and then play each other in the best of 9. Think of the all-independent team possibilities.

Y's little brother
Sandy, UT

whoami

Despite Utah's increased revenue, it'll take years/decades/perhaps never for Utah to match the facilities already in place at BYU, and even then, the Utes will still lag far behind most of the PAC 12 in facilities.

The conference "claims" to be the "conference of champions", yet Utah hasn't won a single national championship in any sport THIS CENTURY, and Utah's record of winning football conference championships during the last half-century is pathetic. Since 1958 (4 years before the WAC was created), Utah has only won SIX conference championships - 1964, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2004, and 2008.

BYU, by contrast, has won several National Championships this century, and has already won several conference championships since leaving the MWC, including the MPSF championship in 2013, THE undisputed best men's volleyball conference in the country.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Let me know when you get to 20 NCAA titles.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Y's little brother

"Despite Utah's increased revenue, it'll take years/decades/perhaps never for Utah to match the facilities already in place at BYU, and even then, the Utes will still lag far behind most of the PAC 12 in facilities."

That is incorrect. Utah's brand new track and softball complex is every bit as nice as BYU track and softball complex and both are definitely in the top half of the PAC-12. Utah's new football facility will be nicer than BYU's and will rank in the top half of the PAC-12. Likewise, the RES renovation will make it bigger than all but 5 PAC-12 stadiums. The Huntsman is already the biggest basketball arena in the PAC-12 and is about to undergo a renovation that will make it, once again, the nicest college basketball arena in the state. That renovation will also include the construction of a brand new basketball training facility. Will Utah ever match Oregon's facilities? Probably not. But the facilities at the U will be more than adequate to compete in the PAC-12, and will be probably be the best in the beehive state when all is said and done.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Two For Flinching, to be fair, no Utah's track is not as nice as BYU's is, but without a men's team, it doesn't really need to be, as long as it is serviceable. I don't know what the softball facility at BYU is like, but I know that Utah's new softball stadium will be very competitive with most of the best college softball facilities. The new HPER facility will be built to the same level as the football facility, just not as large, and with the new student life center having broken ground already, the HPER will be utilized only by University athletics, no more campus rec or ESSF classes. And finally I've heard the baseball program has been approved to build an on-campus stadium.

Solomon Levi
Alpine, UT

StGtoSLC

"Let me know when you get to 20 NCAA titles."

Let us know when Utah's men win a single national championship without the aid of the Utah women - all of Utah's national championships have come in coed skiing (against powerhouses like Denver, Vermont, and Dartmouth) and in women's gymnastics.

BYU's men have won national championships in multiple sports, including football, golf, track & field, cross country, volleyball, and rugby.

Solomon Levi
Alpine, UT

2fer

"...RES renovation will make it bigger than all but 5 PAC-12 stadiums. The Huntsman is already the biggest basketball arena in the PAC-12 and is about to undergo a renovation that will make it, once again, the nicest college basketball arena in the state."

Even IF these improvements are completed someday, RES will still be 10,000+ smaller than LaVell Edwards Stadium and the Huntsman will still be 6,000+ smaller than the Marriott Center.

The most glaring deficiency, however, will be in Utah's Sports Hall of Fame closet, which will still be bereft of a Crystal Football National Championship Trophy - no matter how much U get from the PAC 10.2 gravy train, it will never buy U a Crystal Football Trophy.

btw, what is Utah going to use its brand new track and field for, since the Utes don't have a track and field team???

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Solomon Levi: "Let us know when Utah's men win a single national championship without the aid of the Utah women - all of Utah's national championships have come in coed skiing (against powerhouses like Denver, Vermont, and Dartmouth) and in women's gymnastics."

A. Check your research on that. Skiing was a men's only sport until the mid-80s.

B. 20 NCAA titles is 20 NCAA titles. 9 NCAA titles is still 11 less. Like I said, let me know.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Continued: "BYU's men have won national championships in multiple sports, including football, golf, track & field, cross country, volleyball, and rugby."

Check that research as well. The men didn't win XC, the women did, and rugby is a club sport, not affiliated with varsity athletics. Not saying this to diminish the accomplishments of the people that actually did them (like you tried to), just to point out that your credibility extends as far as your ability to keep facts straight.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Solomon Levi

- It's not IF, but when. The university has announced plans for both in the near future.

- RES and the JMHC will be smaller, but nicer and more comfortable to see a game than their counterparts in Provo.

- Never say never. But either way that does not bother me. I'm looking to the future, not 30 years in the past.

- Utah does have a track and field team, which is why the complex was built. Utah does not have a men's T&F team though. Also, many Utah club sports utilize the complex when the track is not practicing.

SportsFan
Orem, UT

StGtoSLC

"Check your research on that. Skiing was a men's only sport until the mid-80s."

Check your own research: Women's skiing was added in 1983. While women compete against one another in their own events, there is a SINGLE team championship based on combined men's and women's results. The ONLY national championship Utah's men ever won solo, in any sport, was in 1981. Every other championship the Utes have won has been in coed skiing or women's gymnastics.

It's laughable that Utah fans beat their chests about skiing championships, when your ONLY competition is Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming, New Mexico and Dartmouth and 99.9% of Utah fans have never even been to a Utah skiing competition.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

SportsFan, I checked my own research, and I was correct. You just said the same thing I said in different words. Likewise to your disparagement, BYU only has a handful of other teams to compete against in men's volleyball. Does that devalue what they've accomplished? I say no, but let's hear your take. Do you think you should have it both ways? Additionally, I'll mention it just to laugh at the inevitable outrage: Utah's men's basketball team has an NCAA title. Utah County may not want to acknowledge it, but the rest of the world does.

SportsFan
Orem, UT

2fer

"It's not IF, but when. The university has announced plans for both in the near future."

Call us when the university stops "planning" and starts "building".

"I'm looking to the future, not 30 years in the past."

So far, that future on the playing field isn't much to brag about in any sport.

And your past, well...

Utah's men have only won ONE solo national championship, in skiing, in 1981.

The Red Rocks haven't won a national championship since 1995.

Utah's coed skiing team hasn't won a national championship since 2003, and the only schools U have to beat are Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming, New Mexico, and Dartmouth. If that were a football or basketball conference, it would be on about the same level as the MAC or Big Sky, and that's the ENTIRE field of Div 1 NCAA teams U have to compete against; some competition.

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

"Utah's coed skiing team hasn't won a national championship since 2003, and the only schools U have to beat are Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming, New Mexico, and Dartmouth. If that were a football or basketball conference, it would be on about the same level as the MAC or Big Sky, and that's the ENTIRE field of Div 1 NCAA teams U have to compete against; some competition."

Umm this makes no sense whatsoever: "If that were a football or basketball conference"? Apples to Oranges. Also, no that is not the entire field of D-I NCAA ski teams, but the thing about a small field of teams is the enormous ability of the athletes on each team, and subsequently some fantastic performances. Having few college options means that each of the powerhouse teams is stacked many of the best college-aged skiers in the world. These students have more athletic ability in their little finger than some "SportsFan" from Orem could dream of having in his/her lifetime.

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