And yet Utah is a member of the PAC12, one of six power conferences while byu is
a mid-major playing in the lowly WCC and one of the three non-BCS football teams
in the Independent 1.3. With the exception Utah County, Utah, the
rest of the country recognizes Notre Dame as the only significant football
program playing independent of a league. They also recognize the *National
Championship from 1984 as an anomaly. A pre-Christmas lower-tier bowl game
against the 7th place BIG-10 team (tied for 6th with MSU but MSU beat Michigan).
Six Big-10 teams were invited to better bowl games. National Championship
before Christmas against a 6-5, 7th place team from a 10 team conference.For those byu fans counting final rankings, check this out. Top 5 finishes: Utah 2 and byu 2Top 10 finishes: Utah 3 and byu 4Undefeated seasons: Utah 2 and byu 1Football drives athletic
programs. Utah leads the series 56-34-4 and has won 13 of the past 20 games,
scoring 108 more points during those games. Utah's stronger football
program coupled with their strong research program lead to their PAC12
@ RockwellThe only reason volleyball is more attended than college
skiing is because it far more convenient (and warm) to watch a volleyball
match.As to which sport is more popular, consult the Olympics to see
which event gets more coverage...
"Can't tell if you're that sexist to discredit women's
athletics,..."Earth to StGtoSLC, he wasn't discrediting
women's athletics, he was discrediting Utah's men's athletics,
which are so pathetic that they've only won ONE national championship
without the aid of Utah's women, and that lone championship was over 30
years ago, in 1981.
skywalker: "BYU's men's teams have already more than doubled the
number of NCAA titles Utah's men's teams have won."Can't tell if you're that sexist to discredit women's
athletics, or just looking to contort every metric to your advantage. Some
choice arguments on this board today, it's been enlightening to say the
StGtoSLCBYU's men's teams have already more than doubled
the number of NCAA titles Utah's men's teams have won.U
should be more worried about actually doing something in football, where the
mighty weak Utes have only managed to finish in the AP Top 25 FIVE times; BYU
has more than three times as many AP Top 25 finishes, SEVENTEEN, including a
national championship.U still lag way behind BYU in the most
important college sport.
Rockwell, like I said, when their achievement of NCAA titles DOUBLES to come
within striking distance of Utah's, I'm all ears for that argument.
That truth is simple enough.
StGtoSLC"What does fan attendance have to do with skill level or
athleticism?"Nothing, but Utah fans are trying to make the
argument that winning NCAA championships shows that Utah's athletic
programs are "relevant". Check out the social media response
to BYU's win over UCLA in volleyball last night.Now compare
that to the social media response to Utah's latest NCAA championship
competition in skiing.Utah's big claim to fame, college skiing,
is so obscure that even Utah fans don't follow it.The simple
truth is, BYU's overall athletic program dwarfs Utah's overall
athletic program in both popularity and achievement.
Rockwell, to humor you, yes I can name two of Utah's skiiers from this year
alone that were fantastic athletes, Miles Havlek and Rose (can't think of
her last name), and last year Tii-Maria Romar was an awesome alpine skier.The D-I ski programs are Wisconsin-Green Bay, Boston College, Harvard,
New Hampshire, Brown, Dartmouth, Vermont, Colorado, Denver, Montana
State-Bozeman, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming.The last time I attended
an NCAA ski event was the Rocky Mountain Intercollegiate Skiing Association
championships at Soldier Hollow two years ago, and I watched a bit of nationals
SportsFan, names like Denver, Vermont and Dartmouth may not mean anything to
you, but in the skiing world, no it is not comparable to the Big Sky in
basketball or football, more like an all-SEC team.Of the teams you
mentioned in men's volleyball, 3 of them have .500 or worse records, and
are still ranked in the top 15. Just like skiing, there are only a handful of
relevant teams every year, due to such a small field. Very similar
comparison.What does fan attendance have to do with skill level or
athleticism? I would imagine roughly the same number of people nationwide know
who won the last men's volleyball championship as the last skiing
championship. Just as I assumed, yes you are trying to have your argument both
StGtoSLC"that is not the entire field of D-I NCAA ski
teams"Really? What other D-I schools compete in skiing?The truth is, nobody, including the kids on the hill, even follow the college
skiing.When was the last time you attended or even watched a
televised Utah ski meet?Without looking it up, could you name a
single skier who competed on Utah's ski team this year?There
were over 3,000 fans at the BYU-UCLA volleyball match last night, and many
thousands more watching the match on BYUtv. It wouldn't be surprising if
that's more fans than attended Utah ski meets during the entire year,
including the NCAA championship.
StGtoSLC"Utah's men's basketball team has an NCAA
title."Yes, Utah's men's basketball team does have an
NCAA title, won almost 70 years ago in the most watered-down NCAA tournament in
history when the NCAA tournament was still the little sister to the NIT and the
vast majority of colleges had suspended their basketball programs.Unfortunately for U, even that wasn't a national championship.
StGtoSLCActually, BYU has MUCH tougher competition in men's
volleyball, than Utah has in skiing.Compare BYU, UCLA,
USC, Stanford, Ohio State, Penn State, Hawaii, Pepperdine, Long Beach State, UC
Irvine, UC Santa Barbara, UC San Diego, Pacific, and CS NorthridgetoUtah, Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming, New Mexico, and
DartmouthFrankly, there's no comparison.And
let's not forget, we're talking a men's competition that is
watched by thousands of fans versus a coed competition that is practically
non-existent as far as fans are concerned.
"Utah's coed skiing team hasn't won a national championship since
2003, and the only schools U have to beat are Denver, Colorado, Vermont,
Wyoming, New Mexico, and Dartmouth. If that were a football or basketball
conference, it would be on about the same level as the MAC or Big Sky, and
that's the ENTIRE field of Div 1 NCAA teams U have to compete against; some
competition."Umm this makes no sense whatsoever: "If that
were a football or basketball conference"? Apples to Oranges. Also, no that
is not the entire field of D-I NCAA ski teams, but the thing about a small field
of teams is the enormous ability of the athletes on each team, and subsequently
some fantastic performances. Having few college options means that each of the
powerhouse teams is stacked many of the best college-aged skiers in the world.
These students have more athletic ability in their little finger than some
"SportsFan" from Orem could dream of having in his/her lifetime.
2fer"It's not IF, but when. The university has announced
plans for both in the near future."Call us when the university
stops "planning" and starts "building"."I'm
looking to the future, not 30 years in the past."So far, that
future on the playing field isn't much to brag about in any sport.And your past, well...Utah's men have only won ONE solo
national championship, in skiing, in 1981.The Red Rocks haven't
won a national championship since 1995.Utah's coed skiing team
hasn't won a national championship since 2003, and the only schools U have
to beat are Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming, New Mexico, and Dartmouth. If
that were a football or basketball conference, it would be on about the same
level as the MAC or Big Sky, and that's the ENTIRE field of Div 1 NCAA
teams U have to compete against; some competition.
SportsFan, I checked my own research, and I was correct. You just said the same
thing I said in different words. Likewise to your disparagement, BYU only has a
handful of other teams to compete against in men's volleyball. Does that
devalue what they've accomplished? I say no, but let's hear your take.
Do you think you should have it both ways? Additionally, I'll mention it
just to laugh at the inevitable outrage: Utah's men's basketball team
has an NCAA title. Utah County may not want to acknowledge it, but the rest of
the world does.
StGtoSLC"Check your research on that. Skiing was a men's
only sport until the mid-80s."Check your own research:
Women's skiing was added in 1983. While women compete against one another
in their own events, there is a SINGLE team championship based on combined
men's and women's results. The ONLY national championship Utah's
men ever won solo, in any sport, was in 1981. Every other championship the Utes
have won has been in coed skiing or women's gymnastics.It's laughable that Utah fans beat their chests about skiing
championships, when your ONLY competition is Denver, Colorado, Vermont, Wyoming,
New Mexico and Dartmouth and 99.9% of Utah fans have never even been to a Utah
@ Solomon Levi- It's not IF, but when. The university has
announced plans for both in the near future.- RES and the JMHC will
be smaller, but nicer and more comfortable to see a game than their counterparts
in Provo.- Never say never. But either way that does not bother me.
I'm looking to the future, not 30 years in the past.- Utah
does have a track and field team, which is why the complex was built. Utah does
not have a men's T&F team though. Also, many Utah club sports utilize
the complex when the track is not practicing.
Continued: "BYU's men have won national championships in multiple
sports, including football, golf, track & field, cross country, volleyball,
and rugby."Check that research as well. The men didn't win
XC, the women did, and rugby is a club sport, not affiliated with varsity
athletics. Not saying this to diminish the accomplishments of the people that
actually did them (like you tried to), just to point out that your credibility
extends as far as your ability to keep facts straight.
Solomon Levi: "Let us know when Utah's men win a single national
championship without the aid of the Utah women - all of Utah's national
championships have come in coed skiing (against powerhouses like Denver,
Vermont, and Dartmouth) and in women's gymnastics."A. Check
your research on that. Skiing was a men's only sport until the mid-80s.B. 20 NCAA titles is 20 NCAA titles. 9 NCAA titles is still 11 less.
Like I said, let me know.
2fer"...RES renovation will make it bigger than all but 5 PAC-12
stadiums. The Huntsman is already the biggest basketball arena in the PAC-12 and
is about to undergo a renovation that will make it, once again, the nicest
college basketball arena in the state."Even IF these
improvements are completed someday, RES will still be 10,000+ smaller than
LaVell Edwards Stadium and the Huntsman will still be 6,000+ smaller than the
Marriott Center.The most glaring deficiency, however, will be in
Utah's Sports Hall of Fame closet, which will still be bereft of a Crystal
Football National Championship Trophy - no matter how much U get from the PAC
10.2 gravy train, it will never buy U a Crystal Football Trophy.btw,
what is Utah going to use its brand new track and field for, since the Utes
don't have a track and field team???
StGtoSLC"Let me know when you get to 20 NCAA titles."Let us know when Utah's men win a single national championship
without the aid of the Utah women - all of Utah's national championships
have come in coed skiing (against powerhouses like Denver, Vermont, and
Dartmouth) and in women's gymnastics.BYU's men have won
national championships in multiple sports, including football, golf, track &
field, cross country, volleyball, and rugby.
Two For Flinching, to be fair, no Utah's track is not as nice as BYU's
is, but without a men's team, it doesn't really need to be, as long as
it is serviceable. I don't know what the softball facility at BYU is like,
but I know that Utah's new softball stadium will be very competitive with
most of the best college softball facilities. The new HPER facility will be
built to the same level as the football facility, just not as large, and with
the new student life center having broken ground already, the HPER will be
utilized only by University athletics, no more campus rec or ESSF classes. And
finally I've heard the baseball program has been approved to build an
@ Y's little brother"Despite Utah's increased revenue,
it'll take years/decades/perhaps never for Utah to match the facilities
already in place at BYU, and even then, the Utes will still lag far behind most
of the PAC 12 in facilities."That is incorrect. Utah's
brand new track and softball complex is every bit as nice as BYU track and
softball complex and both are definitely in the top half of the PAC-12.
Utah's new football facility will be nicer than BYU's and will rank in
the top half of the PAC-12. Likewise, the RES renovation will make it bigger
than all but 5 PAC-12 stadiums. The Huntsman is already the biggest basketball
arena in the PAC-12 and is about to undergo a renovation that will make it, once
again, the nicest college basketball arena in the state. That renovation will
also include the construction of a brand new basketball training facility. Will
Utah ever match Oregon's facilities? Probably not. But the facilities at
the U will be more than adequate to compete in the PAC-12, and will be probably
be the best in the beehive state when all is said and done.
Let me know when you get to 20 NCAA titles.
whoamiDespite Utah's increased revenue, it'll take
years/decades/perhaps never for Utah to match the facilities already in place at
BYU, and even then, the Utes will still lag far behind most of the PAC 12 in
facilities.The conference "claims" to be the "conference
of champions", yet Utah hasn't won a single national championship in
any sport THIS CENTURY, and Utah's record of winning football conference
championships during the last half-century is pathetic. Since 1958 (4 years
before the WAC was created), Utah has only won SIX conference championships -
1964, 1995, 1999, 2003, 2004, and 2008.BYU, by contrast, has won
several National Championships this century, and has already won several
conference championships since leaving the MWC, including the MPSF championship
in 2013, THE undisputed best men's volleyball conference in the country.
@worf(continued from above)The woman's basketball
finished 6th. All 5 teams above them were ranked in the nation's top 25
teams. And on and on. In the past Utah could only dream of scheduling such
teams maybe once or twice in a year.4) Arizona has been in the PAC-10/12
for 30+ years. Never to have been in the Rose Bowl. Would they ever go back to
a lesser conference? Consider "Independence"? Never and Never.5)
As a former Y basketball player, announcing the Y vs. Colorado State basketball
game where Colorado was greaterly overmatched. From memory, This is what
players dream of and play for. Playing in front of crowds against top
opponents. (end semi-quote) 6) In short - for Utah fans, it is better to
be in water that can be over our heads than to wade in water knee deep!PS. If the Y is still independent in football in two years - it will be Army
and BYU - no others. Perhaps it would help scheduling for each school to have
three games and then play each other in the best of 9. Think of the
all-independent team possibilities.
@worf"Utah is over their heads in the PAC 12" Many would agree with what you say. For nearly two years now, Utah has
finished in the bottom half of the league in almost all sports. (Almost never
have they finished last!!)Here are some considerations:1)
According to Wall Street article Utah made twice the revenue and profit compared
to the Y last year - with only 50% share of TV and $0 from PAC-12 network. 2) As a result of #1 and donations they 1) built a softball stadium 2) built
a track 3) will finish a state-of-th-art football/sports complex 4) started a
basketball practice facility & 5) announced a student center with 3 pools
plus anticipate expansion of football facilities.3) Colorado came from the
BCS Big 12. Utah is the only addition coming from a "mid major"
conference.4) The conference claims to be the Conference of Champions.
And back it up with over 100 more national titles than any other conference.
The competition is intense. ie. The men's tennis team will play the
nations 18th ranked team - which is seeded 4th in the conference tournament.
(to be continued)
@StGtoSLC "if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better
overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading the overall
athletics head to head matchups this year, no?"Even a blind
squirrel finds an acorn once in a while, right? Since the inception of the
Deseret Duel, BYU has won four times, Utah now has won twice (and this is the
first time in the last three years that Utah has won it, even though they have
won the football part all three years, which is significant, since the football
aspect is worth the most points).Also, BYU's athletic teams won
140 championships while in the MWC. Utah's athletic teams won
49.So Solomon Levi had it right. It's not even debatable who
has the better athletics program. Phoenix gives a great synopsis of that,
too.We'll give U this year. Ute fans need a little bit of
positive news for their sports programs after no postseason in football or MBB
and after the mess that is going on with the swimming program and the rugby
program.Hope that it all works out!
phoenixYou might also point out that BYU's AVERAGE finish in
the Director's Cup, 30th, is 7 places higher, than Utah's BEST finish,
37th, in 1997-1998.On average, BYU has finished 31 places higher
than Utah for the last 20 years, 29 places higher during the last 10 years. Only
once has Utah been less than 10 places lower than BYU, in 2008-2009, when BYU
placed 47th and Utah placed 51st. Of course, the next season returned to normal,
with BYU finishing 39 places higher than Utah, with BYU 37th and Utah 75th.As Solomon Levi correctly stated, it's not even debatable that BYU
has a MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah.
StGtoSLC"...if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a
MUCH better overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading
the overall athletics head to head matchups this year, no?"Even
though our friends on the hill like to pretend otherwise, head-to-head success
DOES NOT measure overall success.The Deseret Duel doesn't
measure ALL Sports; for that, we turn to the National Association of College
Directors of Athletics Cup, which measures ALL sports.Current
2012-2013 Standings - through April 11th, not including the Women's
Gymnastics or Men's Volleyball - #54 BYU, #78 UtahAverage
Finish Since 1993-94 - #30 BYU, #61 UtahLast 10 Years2002-2003
BYU 45, Utah 562003-2004 BYU 29, Utah 552004-2005 BYU 27, Utah 552005-2006 BYU 31, Utah 562006-2007 BYU 26, Utah 602007-2008 BYU
41, Utah 822008-2009 BYU 47, Utah 512009-2010 BYU 36, Utah 752010-2011 BYU 37, Utah 712011-2012 BYU 43, Utah 742012-2013 BYU
54, Utah 78Since 1993-1994 when the NACDA Cup was started, Utah has
NEVER finished ahead of BYU in the Director's Cup.
Solomon Levi, if it were "not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH better
overall athletic program than Utah," then BYU should be leading the overall
athletics head to head matchups this year, no? But they are not, they have been
beaten 6-4 so far throughout the year. I'd say that leaves plenty of room
for debate, and that the debate is pretty useless except to insecure fans. In my
opinion they're pretty even overall, and both have a long way to go to be
nationally respectable in overall athletic prowess. As far as the rivalry's
annual champion, Utah gets the bragging rights this time, so better luck next
year at having your "MUCH better" talk actually trying to have some
Naval Vet"Utah has the superior academic and cultural qualities,
and as for athletics, it was a football decision."The PAC 12 is
an ATHLETIC conference and it's not even debatable that BYU has a MUCH
better overall athletic program than Utah, including football, where the Utes
are nothing but a flash-in-the-pan, johnny-come-lately program that has already
proven that they're not good enough to compete in the PAC 12. U still
haven't beaten a single PAC 12 team with a winning record."Superior academics" is a joke. BYU has the exact "High
Research" standing as several Big 12 South teams that the PAC 10 were ready
to accept with open arms until Texas A&M scuttled the deal. And in
undergraduate programs, BYU dwarfs Utah.The simple truth is, BYU
wasn't invited to join the PAC 12 because of the religious bigotry of a few
PAC 10 members and BYU's no Sunday play policy.
Kosta Fesenko and Y Grad, the first tiebreaker scenario is counting the total
number of individual Deseret Duel team trophies won by each school. If BYU wins
out all the remaining games this season, they will tie Utah in that category
with 6 (BYU currently sits at 4). The second tiebreaker, as decided by the
schools' representatives, is the winner of the football game. This is why
Utah has already clinched the year's all sports trophy.
Utah is over their heads in the PAC 12. Sad!
The Deseret Dual has already been awarded to Utah. It was presented to the
athletes at halftime of the spring game. BYU can come back and tie in the
overall points if they manage to win the next two games in baseball and the
softball game, but the tiebreaker (which I honestly dont know what it is) has
been given to Utah.
@CougFaninTXEloquent! As you say, "..BYU is in a different
league than the Utes." For two years now I have included that thought in my
daily prayers as I consider my blessings.
GrunaoProvo, UTThat's a good question, and I'll
admit right up front, I don't know the answer.Gotta think BYU
is leading though. Desert Dual is about more than football.
Glad to see utah lost.
Who is currently leading the Deseret First Duel Challenge? Tommy (Holmoe) needs
to start focusing on beating the school up north and winning the Duel before
worrying about national relevance.
Some days are like that; the ball bounces your way (or in this case, flies
away).What doesn't make sense though is this is not supposed to
happen based upon the conference affiliations of both teams. How is it possible
that a WCC team beats a PAC 12 team? That probably can be explained by the
caliber of each team, coaches and overall athletic program. But, some days you
win and some days you lose.
@Navel vetSuperior academic qualities at Utah? Superior to what, SLCC? By
any undergraduate metric, and undergraduates are the ones playing
intercollegiate sports, BYU is ahead. Cultural qualities? BYU has more bilingual
students than any other US university.
Real Bass:No, they took the right one. Utah has the superior
academic and cultural qualities, and as for athletics, it was a football
decision. Football is where the money is. Not baseball. Unless you have an
NC-caliber baseball team, nobody cares about that sport. I don't think
Colorado even HAS a baseball team.Have fun down there in the WCC.
233-109. Pretty lopsided rivalry! One moe evidence that the PAC took the wrong
They own Utah in baseball too?
Although BYU started their top three pitchers for the first four innings
Tuesday, the Tuesday night games never really matches up the best pitchers. It
would be interesting to see a three game weekend series with each teams top
pitchers throwing. Then, we might get a better feel for braggging rights.
Always fun to watch!!
Series now tied at one win each. Having watched both games, BYU puts a better
product on the field (expecially on the offensive side). But, give some credit
to the Utes because they do scrap and battle. Looking forward to the next two
games. And, the pictures by Tom Smart and descriptions aren't even close
to being accurate. Somebody needs to pay better attention!!!
Always good when the cougs beat the utes.
Utes' starting pitching has been struggling lately and the offense has been
slow in getting going. Get that corrected and there's still time to make a
decent season to continue to build off of. Good game to BYU, though.
Congratulations Cougars on a dominating win over the Utes!
Great victory over the utes! I liked the homer on the first pitch and the final
score was indicative of how much better the Cougars are than the utes. Keep it
Umm...233-109-2 all time series lead??? Dang, sounds like those so called
Sunday School boys can play ball after all! Great job guys!Go
Give the Utes the edge in football where they have won 3 of the last four, with
3 of the four games coming down to the final play. But for total athletic
program, BYU is in a different league than the Utes. It's great
being able to cheer for the Cougs and know they can compete at the highest
levels in every sport (Volleyball, Rugby, Basketball, Track and the list goes
on) not just two sports (football and gymnastics).Congrats on a nice