EternalPerspective,I think you would be hard pressed to justify what
you wrote with canonized scriptures.
Craig Clark"The perplexing question is, if man's destiny is
to become like God, why would God give Adam and Eve the commandment?"God gave Adam and Eve two commandments. The first was to multiply and
replenish the earth, while the second was to not eat the fruit from the Tree of
Knowledge of Good and Evil. Genesis says they were naked but not ashamed until
after they ate the fruit. Adam and Eve were innocent, not yet
mortal, and could not have children until after eating the forbidden fruit.
This makes sense if you understand what the scriptures say that we lived with
God as His spirit children before coming to earth.Adam and Eve could
not progress in their innocent state without knowing good and evil by exercising
choice for themselves. The forbidden fruit represented becoming mortal to gain
firsthand knowledge through opposition in mortality that was needed to become
like God.Eve partook of the fruit first, thereby she followed the
greater commandment to multiply and replenish the earth after realizing they
could not in their innocent state. Their "Fall" was a
"transgression" to give bodies for God's spirit children on earth.
I commend Robert Millet for encouraging us to look for what we have in common
with those we don’t agree with on many things. The world could more of
that spirit of seeking common purpose with our fellow man.
RE: Craig Clark,The LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from
any tree in the garden..(Gen 2:16), “but you must “Not” eat
from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you
will ‘Certainly DIE." (Gen 2:17).RE: Arm of Orion, Did
Satan lie? Yes,eat and Live forever(v. 22), Sin results in death(Romans 6:23),
(James 1:14-15) cuts the sinner off from God’s gift of eternal life. In a
terrible perverted way Satan’s prediction (v. 5)came true.@
EternalPerspective, The discernment of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Same Greek
word(pneuma).Test,whether or not a spirit is of God. Jesus,false prophets are known by their fruit – Fruit can be (false
doctrine) Mt 7 :15-20, Does their confession match the truth of God's Word?
(I John 4:1-3).If someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus (exalted
man) other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from
the Spirit you received, or a different gospel…. 2 Cor 11:4.@ Gal 1:8.
Overall, Christians find common ground in judging and condemning the
nonbelievers, such as myself.In this regard, Mormons excel.
Arm of Orion,"....It seems to me that not only was Satan correct
in saying that eating said fruit will make man like God, God himself admitted as
question is, if man's destiny is to become like God, why would God give
Adam and Eve the commandment?
sharronaKnowing God's correct principles and truths
doesn't come from reading the scriptures alone. It first requires one to
"pick up their cross" and follow Christ to understand the nature and
will of God revealed by the Holy Ghost, not according to human interpretation
that lacks context of God's eternal plan.The scriptures bear
record of God's word, but without the discernment of the Holy Ghost that
comes by way of faith and obedience to His commandments, which is living the
Gospel of Jesus Christ in its true form, the rest is simply an academic pursuit.
When the doctrine of Christ is given in its pure form, the world can't see
those truths. The same conditions of today were in abundance during the mortal
ministry of Christ in Jerusalem.The Pharisees of that day proclaimed
the letter of the law as to preserve their craft, but denied the more important
parts (i.e. scriptures combined with man-made precepts to exalt man above God).
All the law and the prophets hang off the first two great commandments. If one
is not filled with charity to love and serve God and His children, all is vain.
Sharrona I don't see how what you quoted disproves my point. In fact it
supports it. For now man is like god knowing good and evil? Is this a bad thing?
Our two quotes mean exactly the same thing. You supply quotes but without
qualifying explanation. I am trying to understand at the least your theology.
Did Satan lie when he said that partaking of this fruit will make them like God?
If he did not lie then what was the lie? Further is it wrong to be like God and
Christ? Is it wrong to strive towards perfection? Is it wrong to have the loving
attributes of Christ? Is it wrong to seek the knowledge of God? In short is it
wrong to be like God?
Theological differences among Christian denominations are as important as we let
them be. Christians have never all thought alike on what Jesus was about. The
earliest squabbles are recorded in the New Testament. Let’s try the
minimalist approach and go back to the very beginning. What was it that
initially made Jesus’ disciples Christians?I boil it down to
two essential components. First was the belief that Jesus was the Messiah.
Second was the belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Those two core
beliefs formed the basis of what became Christianity. That’s our common
ground.Then came theology and with it came dissension. What began as
Jesus announcing that the kingdom of God was at hand became a debate over
salvation, atonement, grace, the trinity, the church.
RE: Arm of Orion, Genesis 3:22 , Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to*know [how to distinguish between] good and
evil….*H3045 – yada. @ Don Bugg, Google my quote.
Bottom line, C.S Lewis believed in One God. He talked about gods (really little)
gods. See, The three personal God. Mere Christianity p. 140.@EternalPerspective, Priesthood/Authority . In(D&C 110: 1-16) Elias and
Elijah appear to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person. The KJV
translators attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there isn’t
a Greek character for the English letter J. To avoid confusion, modern
translations: NIV, NJKV, Catholic Bible have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt
11:14,; Luke 1:17)JS was unaware. Faith is only as good as the
object(JS)of that faith, Or the”Church Stands or Falls with Joseph
Smith“ J Fielding Smith. Doctrines of Salvation. Authority But
to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority, privilege,
right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in His
name.( John 1:12)
laggieNot an "us versus them". Persecutions yield potential
for bonds across Christiandom, but not exclusively. We are all God's
children and he esteems no one person greater than the other. There is nothing
political in my views. Rather, an observation that Christians will increasingly
need to come together to stand united as the antichrists of the world
converge.sharronaFrom postings on this site, you
obviously have a love of the scriptures and a solid academic understanding of
them (meant as a compliment). However, do you think as was proclaimed by
creedal Christians and many who followed, that God's word and works to the
children of men ended with the Apostles and all we have left is the Bible to
bear witness of God's truths? Truths of the Bible was written by
revelation to those having Priesthood authority to act in the name of God. We
know God gives according to the faith of His children. So, I invite you to
prove truth or fallacy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by
firsthand immersion, rather than seek to discredit solely by way of doctrinal
references and vicarious perceptions.
@ Windsor and EternalPerspectiveIt sounds as though you see this as
a political or "us versus them" exercise. I hope this is not the case.
I think Wastintime's question, whether the goal should be to seek common
ground with everybody (rather than just other Christians), is important for our
leaders, and us as members, to consider.
I think what brother Millet said is sound advice for all of us. My wife grew up
methodist and her father is a pastor. Sitting with her in sacrament meeting
singing hymns and enjoying testimonies we've concluded that the true
spirit of goodness taught her more about the gospel in LDS terms than anything.
I think it's truely our hope that the church could meet needs and I feel it
does for us.We know people ofcourse who are predisposed. We
can't make everyone like us, and especially during this last political go
around we don't even consider trying. Sometimes God allows tragedy to
strike like what happened 2 hours ago up in Boston. In those cases, we find
opportunities to serve and uplift.
I believe Sharrona is guilty of misinterpreting C S Lewis. Consider this quote
from The Weight of Glory:It is a serious thing to live in a society
of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting
person you talk to may one day be a creature which,if you say it now, you would
be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you
now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree
helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light
of these overwhelming possibilites, it is with the awe and the circumspection
proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all
friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people.
You have never talked to a mere mortal. nations, cultures, arts, civilizations -
These are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is
immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal
horrors or everlasting splendors.
@Rikitikitavi"No need for name-calling, bigotry, and conflict within
the Christian community."I suspect that some of that is always
going to exist though when denominations act with some degree of exclusivity
(like the Catholic church not accepting LDS baptisms as valid and
vice-versa).@windsor"President Obama's changed
position on SSM and insistence that companies provide abortion solutions for
their employees gave them cause to re-examine the views of LDS and found they
had a whole lot more in common with us than they did the current president.
"Unity on opposition to equal rights for same-sex couples is a
lousy basis on which to build. The Prop 8 and Romney stuff are both gone. Is
there really a relationship or was it merely a temporary alliance of
To Wastintime--The reason to reach out to other Christian, and non Christian
religions as well, is to work together and stand together for things we have in
common.I lived in Tulsa, in the Biblebelt for a long time and cannot
tell you how surreal it was in the last presidential election to see blogs
called 'Evangelicals For Mitt' or Facebook pages called 'Baptists
For Mitt'. Even fairly recently, I COULD NEVER have imagined that EVER
happening.Once our deepest resenters and those who distrusted,
despised and even hated Mormons were now lining up with us. President Obama's changed position on SSM and insistence that companies
provide abortion solutions for their employees gave them cause to re-examine the
views of LDS and found they had a whole lot more in common with us than they did
the current president. As the defense of marriage continues, and
other moral decay increases, those who have moral convictions and moral values
will continue to see that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and will
increase in joining with LDS on matters of importance to us both.
Sharrona, if it is your contention that man cannot become like God or that this
becoming like God was the original lie how do you explain Genesis 3:22 where God
states that man has become as one of us knowing good from evil? It seems to me
that not only was Satan correct in saying that eating said fruit will make man
like God, God himself admitted as much.
What this has done is erect a wall between the "traditional" Christian
adherents and the Latter-Day Saints. The main purpose of Bro. Millet's
presentation, as I see it, is to break down that wall.There are
other walls between non-Christians and believers as well. The purpose of the
presentation was not intended to address these issues specifically.
@the truth, What is God trying to accomplish?When Abram was
ninety-nine years old, the LORD(YHWH) appeared to him and said, “I am
El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty.’ Serve me faithfully and live a
*blameless life. ["complete”] = without blame, sincere, wholly
devoted to the LORD, or "be ye perfect”(Gen 17:1).Jesus
did not create a new standard, for God has never had any other standard for man
other than ‘perfect holiness ‘(see Lev 11:44,& 1 Peter 1:15;
16.).@: I believe what God revealed to Moses 1:39. Do you believe?
Moses 8:18 giants, which follows the KJV Gen 6: 4 giants S/B Gen 6:4 NIV
,The Nephi-lim ( fallen H 5303).RE: An EternalPerspective. A few of
God’s Incommunicable (non-moral) attributes Self-Existent, God never has
or will depend on another thing for His own existence. He is the uncaused
cause. (Ps. 92:1-2; Is. 43:13). Divine Transcendence – God is
distinct, above and separate from all earthly and heavenly creation, unknowable
apart from his graceful self-revelation. (Gen. 1:1, John 1:7, 9, 18)
Wastintime:Christians generally understand God is no respector of
persons and loves all of His children, irrespective of their beliefs, pratices,
sins, and so forth. However, the need to promote interfaith relationships of
outreach directed specifically at Christian sets has to due with the rise of the
"antichrist" in these last days as prophesized. Christians all over the
world are being attacked from violent means to the more subtle ways in the west
with attempts to eliminate public freedoms of speech and expression, while
trying to force a compromise of values in the name of tolerance (which is really
conformity to secular patterns of contrary ways to God).sharrona:When the Pharisees so strongly fought against Jesus Christ when He came
to earth in the flesh, why do you think they couldn't see He was the
Messiah, the Son of God, who came to redeem God's children? Could it be
because they were trying to protect the craft of men, whom they stood to lose
the most as more people believed the Savior's teachings? How is today any
different with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the
"Pharisees" of "worldliness"?
@sharronaI disagree with your interpretations.So why is
standard so high for us?What is the point of standard?IS
God just imposing these things for fun?What is God trying to
accomplish?I believe what God revealed to Moses, Moses 1:39"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man."'eternal' - of
God, existing like God, God-like, God's existance,'immortality' is different from 'eternal'SO we
will have agree to disagree. Regardless, we do have much in common
when it comes values, morals, ans principles.SO we need to get past
our different understandings of scripture.
I contend that the problem is that members of the church don't really know
who we are. We are like those who were of the "House of Chloe," whom
Paul has to chasen because they had virtually the same issue. Said he: "for
it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the
houwe of Chloe, that there are contentions among you."Now this I
say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul;[Mormon] and I of Apollos
[Christian] and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.Is Christ divided? was
Paul [Mormon]crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor.
1:11-13)We have the same problem today. People of other religious
sects don't know who we really are because we answer by so many names that
are not mentioned anywhere in neither the Old or New Testament. Paul indicated
that we are called to be saints. v2 The Lord did not restore a
Christian Church, nor a Mormon one, He restored the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints. We must accept this or other sects will continue to shun us.
@Rikitikitavi, The Christian community rejects Mormon teachings:RE:
"be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect'
(Matthew 5:48) Christs sets up the high ideal of perfect love(see vv 43-47)This
is God’s high standard for us.Love is an communicable moral
attribute like, grace, mercy; holiness, righteousness, justice.… ye might be partakers( koinōnos)of the divine nature' (2
Peter 1:4), (G2844 communion[via Holy Spirit]). The Apostles creed. I believe in
the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic=(universal) Church, the communion of
saints.'when he shall appear, we shall be like him' (1
John 3:2).verse 3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth(agios)
himself, even as he is pure(agios)=(G#40,(Holy/Sanctified).RE: C.S.
Lewis inferred in his work “Mere Christianity” that opportunities to
grow toward God could continue beyond the grave.C. S. Lewis: “What
Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea that they could be
‘like gods”. “The case” ….
You ask valid questions and maybe I can attempt to provide (my) answers. When
common beliefs are discovered, understanding and mutual respect are most always
the result. Groups of people who can share some common positive ground and
mutually respect one another can build a much more civil, peaceful society.
That's all good in my view. No need for name-calling, bigotry, and conflict
within the Christian community. You raise a highly valid point about being more
inclusive regardless of the origin of ones common values in our society. Again
much more civility and peace is shared with those around us.
Also, why exclude non-Christians and people of no religious belief? Can't
common ground, if that is a desirable goal, be found with everybody? I believe
many of the precepts of Christianity also are held by most human beings.
What is the purpose or objective of looking for common beliefs with other
Christians (this is not explained in the article)?