and I'm a Proud Non Mormon and Proud Conservative
This is encouraging, and I like the last line, something like honest and wise.
BOTH parties need that kind of influence.
oh yes, i forgot 'good'.
I support everyone's right to believe what they will, but I'm having a
difficult time swallowing "the Democrat party's principles are in line
with LDS doctrine" claim. I'm not a big fan of the Republican party,
but to suggest to LDS's that the party that has pushed abortion and gay
marriage, pushed religion into the shadows in favor of secularism and atheism,
proposed dependency on the federal government (in lieu of offering a hand up,
not a hand-out), constantly seeks to curb individual liberties in favor of
government absolutism, produced Jim Crow throughout the South, honors (albeit
quietly) Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and other mass murderers as somehow enlightened
and worthy of our praise-- I just can't buy it. Again,
I'm not saying the Republicans epitomize LDS values, but to sell the
Democrat Party as a viable alternative... really? Try Independent, Libertarian
(though there are problems there as well) or another alternative that allows you
to get at the cream without swallowing a bucket of manure along with it.
That about sums up the problem with politics, and society in general. LABELS!
Why does anyone have to be a label. It boxes you in and does not allow you to be
something rather then someone. If we were just people who really cared, we
would take care of the pore and needy around us. We would love our neighbor as
ourselves. Label only divide a society and we worry to much what someone is
rather then who they are.
Why I'm not a democrat:-Abortion-Gay Marriage-Gun
Control-Higher Taxes (or what Obama calls "fair share")-Obamacare-No budget in 4 yearsAs long as democrats continue
to push for those issues, I will never be a democrat.
This is great! All 10 of us can get together and meet in someone's living
room. Maybe Harry Ried can come and give a talk. I'll bring Rice Crispy
In addition to issues like abortion and gay marriage that contradict LDS
doctrine, there is also a palpable hostility toward Mormons and religion in
general by many core Democrats. I question whether many Democrats would really
embrace Mormons into their party.
Where are they going to meet---in someone's home while the other party
meets at the high school? They'll have better luck on a national scale
than a local one.
LDS = Liberal Deficiency SyndromeI have no idea how a person could
follow the precepts of the modern Democrat party and abide by the teachings of
the LDS church.D&C 42:42 ..."The Idler shall not eat the
bread nor wear the garments of the laborer..."AbortionSame sex
marriageThe church teaches to avoid debt. Democrats can't seem
to speed fast enough."Thou Shalt Not Steel" But Democrats just
vote for a government official to do it for them.The Constitution is
inspired by God. To Democrats it is a "living document", which is one
way of saying that it does not mean what it says, it means anything I can twist
it into meaning; which means it is meaningless.I could go on and on
and on. LDS and Democrat are mutually exclusive terms.
I almost became a Democract 5 years ago. After Obama became elected and they
passed that health care act, I quickly realized that party is not for me. I
don't like any other party, so I am an independent. My ideals
are these:Small governmentNo taxes (ok, maybe a small amount
for certain things like DEFENSE)All moral issues are decided by the
churches you attend.
Well, if we can have Log Cabin Republicans, I suppose we can allow for Mormon
Democrats. Big tent and all that, you know...
The Republicans seem to feel the need to be more "inclusive" and are
trying to figure out what that means. Maybe the Democrate party would attract
more Mormons if the party's platform were more inclusive of the general LDS
values, like other posters have listed. Hey, maybe if both parties
became perfectly inclusive of everyone they could implode, standing for nothing,
or rather both standing for everything at the same time, making them irrelevant
- which seems to be the direction they are headed anyway. In the
end we vote for the individual that best represents our views. It really
doesn't matter what party we belong to.
Come on people, just because you consider yourself democrat or republican
doesn't mean you have to agree 100% with everything on that party's
platform. You can agree with democrats on immigration and fiscal policy yet
disagree on social issues such as abortion and gay marriage and still consider
yourself a democrat. Why does everyone assume that all democrats are pro
abortion or support same sex marriage? There are thousands of issues on which
the political parties differ, yet we always boil it down to these two. An active
mormon can agree 98% with democrats without supporting full fledged gay marriage
I'm a Mormon and a registered Democrat, I know that's an extremely
rare thing around here. I don't like everything about the Democratic party,
but overall I shared more beliefs with it than I did the Republican party. Truth
be told that actually makes me an independent more than anything, my political
beliefs range all over the place, but I chose to register as a Democrat so that
I could be more involved. It could very well change in the future as the
political parties continue to flux and transition. If the Republican party
chooses to change a few key things (which I won't go into here) I would
consider going back, until then I am lost in political no mans land.
I have been LDS for 40-plus years and an active Republican for longer than that.
I have never presumed, however, to tell anybody which party they must (or must
not) belong to in order to be an LDS Church member. Incidentally, the
conservative, Republican "group think" which I have observed among
Mormons is not any worse than the liberal Democratic group think which I
encountered previously among Unitarians.
@utcyclist"I question whether many Democrats would really embrace
Mormons into their party."Harry Reid? Tom Udall? Jon Huntsman
Jr.? Democrats are fine with Mormons as long as they aren't trying to
impose their religious rules on others (with regards to things like abortion, or
same-sex marriage). Their skepticism of LDS candidates that they aren't
familiar with is based on concern about that type of matter and the fact that
statistically the LDS church is 9% liberal based on a gallup poll, the lowest of
any faith in America, so they sorta assume an LDS candidate they don't know
much about is either conservative or a bluedog.
I am not LDSI used to be registered as a Democrat and traditionally
would vote pretty split party Yet, whatever flaws the Republican may have;
The Democratic Party has completely alienated me with their extremism and
intolerance and just plain weird passive/aggressive “I am tolerant because
I hate for all the fashionable reasons” vibe.I don’t see
how anyone can be a good Mormon and Democrat - but that’s merely because I
don’t see why anyone at all would be a Democrat as the party is currently
constituted. Maybe if they dump Reid, Pelosi, Obama, Boxer, Waters,
Schumer, etc and tell Matthews, Maddow and O'Donnell to go away - I will
re-consider: But I suspect ice-skating in Hades will happen first
Most Mormon democrats that I have talk with are dems because of dem's goals
of giving govt money to the poor. Helping the poor is a noble goal. But the
gospel doesn't ask govt to give money, it asks us to give. When the govt
does things, it invariably involves fraud, waste, and abuse. And, govt
antipoverty programs promote unwed parenthood, and have caused more damage to
the family than almost anything else.
So now the Demo's want to try to divide the members of the church? Man
these people can,t keep their hands out of anything. I for one am tired of it...
FairchildIV- This issue is not about minor policy disagreements. The LDS faith
views elective abortion (which accounts for 87-92% of abortions) as murder and
an absolute moral wrong. Gay marriage for the LDS faith denies those caught up
in its practice some of the most fundamental reasons why we live on this planet.
Homosexuality deeply and eternally injures the practitioner and influences
others to fall down the same rabbit hole. The Democrat war on religion (all
over the nation religion is being pushed out of public discourse) stifles
wholesome morals (yes a single-minded statement, but we're taking about one
group's beliefs). Governance by force is again disharmonious to LDS
doctrine ("teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves"
is laughable to the Liberal mindset of complete regulation and forced
tolerance/acceptance).Again, these are not minor policy
disagreements. Liberalism, which has become synonymous with Democrat, is a
whole philosophy that does not agree at its core with LDS doctrine or principle.
@FairchildIV,I listed fiscal concerns as well as social. Democrats
haven't passed a budget in 4 years and Obamacare is the worst fiscal
policy. I don't agree with democrats or republicans on immigration, I
support the Utah Compact. But there are some issues that I cannot just turn a
blind eye to - namely abortion, gay marriage, and gun control. If democrats
really want me to join their party, then they have a long way to go.
I find it beyond comprehension that the most liked posting contains the
following statement." ..., honors (albeit quietly) Pol Pot, Mao
Tse Tung and other mass murderers as somehow enlightened and worthy of our
praise--..."The ignorance approaches infinity.
@FairchildIV I would issue a challenge to you to tell me how "an active
mormon can agree 98% with democrats." If I could agree 98% with Democrats,
then I should be a Democrat instead of a registered Republican. And I say
"registered" Republican because I do not even agree with the Republicans
98% of the time, so how could I as an active Mormon possibly agree with the
Democrats 98% of the time?I guess here's the (apparent) 2% that
I don't agree with the Dems:*Gay marriage *abortion
*controlling people's lives (does this ring a bell?) *taking away moral
agency, like found in Obamacare (does this ring a bell?) *hostility to religion
*more taxes *more regulations *gun control *name-calling *supporting and allying
with dictators *cutting national defense *wanting open borders *welfare in all
of its forms *etc. etc. etc.So please tell me, what exactly is the
98% of the Dems policies that I as an active Mormon agree with?BTW,
I've asked the Utah LDS Dem caucus president to please tell me how their
views align with the church's doctrine and how I as a faithful Mormon could
join them. He never answered me.
PAC -- you may not be aware of it, but there actually are LDS members who are
currently Democrats. And as one, I for one, am tired of know-nothing members
who try to impose their political beliefs on me by implying that the Republican
Party is some holy, devinely inspired political party. The day the church
publishes something that tells me I must become a member of the Republican Party
(instead of their current statements that say there is good to be found in both
political parties) will be the day I think you are something other than out to
William Gronberg, You did not really specify what exactly you think
is ignorant about whom, but reading between the lines I think you are confused
why conservatives are upset at liberals for praising such "mass
murderer" leaders. If you do some research, you will easily find many in the
current administration that have indeed praised such "leaders" as Mao,
having praised him in public and written glowing papers on him. Also, there are
stories about a Christmas ornament on the white house tree with Mao's
likeness...Exactly who is ignorant about what?
I don't vote republican nor do I vote democrat. Both parties leave much to
be desired when it comes to gospel principles of following the constitution,
being self reliant, less government intervention and electing righteous non
All this focus on how much other members accept some member's political
views is reminiscent of seeking the praise of men.We aren't
judged by our political party, nor should it matter what other members think.
The ONLY thing that matters is whether our political views are calculated to
build up the Kingdom of God or not. I've learned that the more committed I
am in keeping the commandments, the less I care about what people think of my
doing so.RepublicanDemocratConservativeLiberalEtc, etc, etc...None of those mean very much. What's
important is our willingness to follow our Lord and our prophets.Free exercize of religionMarriageFamilyWhile not
popular, these things are the most fundamental for us to remain a free people
yet so many members of the church are being lead away by false doctrines of the
world. Why are people lead away? I suspect a great deal is because so many are
concerned with how they are viewed. Well, isn't that what these
organizations are all about?Start worrying about whether you're
promoting the Lord's commandments, not whether it's accepted to do so!
I'm an active LDS member and also a Democrat. The people I confide in
most are also Democrats. We visit together, share ideas, and find comfort
knowing we're not alone. However, I must agree, it's lonely and often
downright depressing to be held in such low esteem amid Mormon congregations. I
do believe, however, that there are more closeted Mormon Democrats than most
realize. Regarding abortion and gay marriage, if you don't
believe in abortion, don't have one. The Republican's platform of no
abortion even in the cases of incest and rape is unconscionable. And if you
don't believe in gay marriage, don't marry someone gay. Simple as
that. Do we believe in free agency or not?
Why am I a Democrat? Because of the teachings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Nephi,
Mormon, King Benjamin, Moroni, Jesus, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor,
Spencer Kimball, Bruce Mckonkie, Boyd Packer, Ezra Taft Benson, and James
Faust.Why am I not a Republican? Because Republicans treat people who are
black, brown,red, yellow, poor, female or disabled as somwhow less than they
They should make dingy harry their honory leader. He can tell them how to lie
and say anything to get elected. How to evolve with his principals by which way
the political wind is blowing.
Its awesome that LDS Republicans append an imaginary asterisk every time the LDS
Church emphasizes that it does not endorse political parties or candidates. The
First Presidency says every election that "Latter-day Saints as citizens are
to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise,
good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various
political parties." LDS republicans seem to think this is said tongue in
cheek and that Ol' Prez Monson elbows Eyring and they have a hearty laugh
afterwards. Mormons are instructed to vote on issues and people. The
democratic party is about more than abortion and gay marriage. Republicans are
about more than tax cuts and big guns.TL;DR, I'm a Mormon
Democrat and I still hold a temple recommend.
My hope is that their efforts can help radically reform the Democrat Party away
from such radical positions as supporting abortion including late term and
partial birth killing, same sex marriage, expanded government, spending out of
control, and so on. Good luck. I'd say that those who voted for Obama can
see what that has brought America (or perhaps they still can't see it).
Forget about the contrasting and polarizing issues of morality, sodomy, drugs,
guns, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or blaming conservatives of
wanting dirty air or outright destruction of the environment, in the past 40
years, I cannot remember a single Democrat who ever sought, professed,
accomplished, or even pursued a single real tax cut. I have a hard time finding
a single occurrence of a real spending reduction. 17 Trillion in debt is an
Obabanation beyond any belief to assume a fancy button or slogan could ever ever
make me consider becoming a Democrat. There were two plans presented
to God in the beginning, Obama's policies and actions mirrors the plan
rejected by 1/3 of the hosts of heaven, the Democrat party appears to provide
evidence for the hypothesis that some of them may have slipped through into
this, the second estate.
The LDS Church is against same-sex marriage, against abortion on demand, teaches
their members to be self reliant and fiscally responsible. Our current
administration supports same-sex marriage, and abortion on demand. They are not
fiscally responsible since the Democratic Senate has not passed a budget in more
than 4 years. Obama's version of self reliance is for the government to
take care of you. All of this goes against my LDS beliefs, so I won't be
switching to the Democratic Party anytime soon.
"Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who
will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible
with the gospel may be found in various political parties."It's awesome how LDS Republicans assume this is said tongue in cheek, and
that they know what the prophets REALLY mean when they say the church is
politically neutral. TL;DR: I became a Mormon Democrat by serving a
mission, attending BYU, and when I voted Democrat, they let me keep my temple
I think that its a positive thing that LDS Dems are organizing and getting
involved in the political process. In fact all LDS people should be glad that
other LDS people are contributing. After reading the comments I realized how mis
informed many are about LDS Dems. You can be an LDS Dem and you don't have
to agree with every issue. In fact most LDS Dems view in abortion is the exact
same as the LDS Church's official stance. On SS marriage it is a civil
issue, LDS people have the proclamation and that doesn't change, even if ss
people can unite under the law. If anything is strengthens our families as it
causes us to teach tolerance and non judgement. Those two issues are always
brought up when there are so MANY others. B4 you start judging LDS Dems find out
how they really think, you might be surprised that you agree on more than you
disagree on, I am sure that commenters will go off on what I've said. This
disconnect, not finding any common ground is indicative of our current politics,
find common ground and make compromises rather than just bicker!
Do you LDS Democrats want the Party to continue as it is going? Namely, going
total secular huminist liberal? Or would you like to influence it to become more
moderate like it used to be? I'd like to know before questioning your
It would be quite interesting to make a parallel between the teachings of the
gospel and the political parties. I have done it and I move more and more to the
left. To the point of not being able to understand how a sincere Christian can
be a Republican.The Republican party and their obsession with
attempting to force us to do what they think is right, instead of letting our
free agency govern our lives, looks more and more like the plan of you know
who.Democrats and Republicans are very close in their political and
socio-economic agenda. If we wanted real difference we would have more political
parties i.e. Communist, Socialist, Social Democrats, Libertarians, etc. etc.I declare myself a Democrat, not because I consider it the best party.
But, because I think of it as the lesser of the two evil.
@ Baccus0902Gee, it's sure sad to hear you think that the two
major political parties in this great country are both "evil". Maybe
you should try somewhere else to live.
I am a proud LDS Democrat. I was a Democrat LONG before I joined the LDS
Church. While some of the attitudes of some of the members do not coincide with
my values and principles, it's important to remember that the Church was
organized in a Socialist manner! Distinctly Democrat! As to
questions such as women's rights; gay rights, etc...the LDS Church has the
very best answer...AGENCY!I try to change the world by
following Jesus' example. If all of us did, there would be no need for
government intervention.Can't have it both ways, Republican
I saw an interesting comment on the back of a car some years ago..."A GOOD
Catholic cannot also be a GOOD Democrat" It struck me pretty forcibly as I
think a GOOD Latter-day Saint also cannot be a GOOD Democrat for the exact same
reason - the acceptance of abortion, socialized medicine, dependence on
government, and gay marriage. The Lord has not told us to judge anyone, but to
make a righteous judgment of ideas. I can see no bridge between the things I
have listed and our pathway to heaven. How can you stand and defend the murders
of 56,000,000 little children. And if you're going to ream me out about
this, I will already admit the line between Demos and Republicans is very thin.
It's time for us to look into our own lives and find the truth. If a
politicians mouth is moving, he/she is probably lying. We are caught in the
midst of evil.
A life-long family of Democrats, we have all dumped the party for
"Unaffiliated". The tail end of the bell curve has taken over the party.
We are not socialists, never have been, and never will be. The present
Democratic power structure and policies are damaging to the country.
I visited the ward I grew up in Logan. Someone attacked Obama in Sunday School.
I did not vote for Obamaa, however I felt compelled to defend him. Big
mistake. I thought some guy was coming across the room and assault me. In the
singles ward I attend a lady brought up the petition to succeed. I said no way
and she called Obama a Marxist. The concern I have is that many in the church
have become uncivil. I ought to be able to attend church , support Democrats
if I want to and feel safe. Right now I don't. Politics has become toxic.
Many view Republicans as being anti-Obma and not stand for anything. That is
one reason Mitt lost. Not all Dems support abortion, gay marriage or a
socialist welfare state. I am not Dem, more of a moderate republican. Talk
radio has to much influence on people. Start thinking for yourself and taking
everything Beck and others say as gospel.
To state that one is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, and also a Democrat is to be a total hypocrite! To my limited
knowledge, there is not one issue that the Democratic Party supports that is
compliant with policies and standards found in The LDS Church. I imagine that in
the population of The Book of Mormon, there were Gadiations who claimed to be
members of the Church at that time.
I don't love the GOP, but I can't understand why these people believe
the Democratic party has anything to offer a member of the church. Here are
just a few contradictions that I see:Mormons believe in God. The
Democrats had to vote THREE times at their convention to include 'God'
in their platform. And even then there was still doubt in the convention. Mormons believe in staying out of debt. The nation is $16 Trillion in
debt and the Democrats want to spend even more.Mormons believe in
the law of the harvest, you reap what you sow. The Democrats believe in
redistribution of wealth.Mormons believe in supporting the poor by
voluntary donations to a well-run welfare program. Democrats believe in
supporting the poor by confiscating tax dollars and sending them to a horribly
run, monstrous federal bureaucracy.The National Democratic party is
an irreparably damaged brand for Mormons. I like Jim Matheson, but I don't
like his friends. Please tell me how I would possibly reconcile this gap. I
don't think it can be done.
Anyone who genuinely wants to know how an LDS individual can be a Democrat, or a
Liberal can go to a number of face book groups that are out there and find out.
There are many LDS people who identify as Liberal and Democrat that you will
find are more than willing to have a civil discussion where they will share with
you why and how. I've met many and they are not only friendly they are
quite well educated, well educated in general as well as in Church doctrine. IF
you just want a fight, and to try to turn them away from their chosen political
field then don't go there. But if you really wonder and just want to see
the other side of the coin then that is a great place. In fact there are
Republicans in some of those groups that just chose to support the President for
re election, they aren't even Democrats. There are current General
Authorities and past that are Democrats, so please don't ever say that you
can't be a faithful member and be both, it is possible and many of us are!
Last election I decided to abandon talking heads and to read each party
platform. I went into this with an open mind. I wanted to see for myself if I
could be a Democrat.I disagreed with almost every major tenet of the
Democratic party platform.
as a 30 year government official I can attest to the massive fraud and waste in
government. I have earnestly tried to be a good steward with the $100 million
budget that I oversee...sadly most ALL of the politicians I have worked with are
simply obsessed with power and taking care of their friends. it is not about
helping or serving the public good. it is time for good people to get involved
or we will continue to be ruled by selfish fools.
The Democratic platform is becoming increasingly non-freedom of choice.
They're pro-choice on only one thing: abortion. When it comes to energy,
vehicles, light bulbs, toilets, guns, schools, etc., etc., they're
definitely against any rights of the individual to choose. Their platform is
basically, "We'll figure out what's best for you, and then
we'll tell you what to do." It doesn't take a particularly
observant person to see this. Yet they claim to be aligned with the principles
of Christianity? Better go back and read the scriptures again.
Re:JayTeeDemocrats believe we--as all Americans, citizens of the
world, should take care to preserve and protect the earth. One would think that
God believing Republicans would also think it important to preserve and protect
the earth, hence the focus on energy conservation. CONSERVatives no?Democrats are not pro-abortion. The Democratic 2012 platform
states:"Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a
woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians
or government to get in the way. We also recognize that health care and
education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also
reduce the need for abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a
woman's decision to have a child by providing affordable health care and
ensuring the availability of and access to programs that help women during
pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption
@ 2 many hatsAgency can be taken away in more than one way. People
get enslaved with too much government assistance giving them everything to live.
That takes away peoples ambition to achieve and accomplish something in life.
They become enslaved to the governments welfare state. The LDS Church knows
this and has known it for a long time. That's why the LDS Church welfare
program always expects something in return for assistance. The government
programs only ask for the vote.
Though the Democratic party, especially on the national level, supports things
contrary to LDS teachings, I have found that the Republican party to be equally
as guilty. Outside of the LDS corridor of the mountain west, the tea party is
very anti-mormon, even more so than the far left. And as for taxes, it's
time to raise them on everyone. The bill has come due and we have to pay the
debt off; raising taxes is required. To insist on not raising them is dishonest
- we have to pay our bills.
@alt134Thanks for informing me that only 9% of my fellow Mormons are
liberal. I was beginning to worry that a trend was beginning.
I've been a lifelong democrat and a faithful member of the church since I
was a teenager...served a mission, married in the temple, all my children have
served missions...I have never found it hard to be an active democrat and a
member of the church...I think the democratic party has more things in common
with the teachings of Christ than what the republicans preach and
practice...Yes, I don't agree with some of the platform of the democrats
but I find even more objectionable behavior and intolerance in the republican
party.Count me as LDS and a Democrat!
Why is it all or nothing?Cant one be fiscally conservative and
socially moderate?Cant a good Republican think that the Iraq war was
a huge mistake without being blackballed by the party?Cant someone
believe that we need smaller government but that universal background checks are
reasonable? Cant one believe that we need to cut spending while insuring that
the poorest Americans have food and health care?I want two strong,
reasonable political parties that act in good faith to enact legislation that is
best for all.We need the parties to provide a check and balance to
the extremes of the other party.There was a time when peoples party
affiliation was driven by their ideology. More and more, peoples ideology is
driven by their party.People have become so enamored with their
party that they begin to accept every party ideology.I see good and
bad in both parties. And I believe that the country is worse off when one party
has complete control.I find that these ideas get me branded as a
@A1994"Mormons believe in God. The Democrats had to vote THREE
times at their convention to include 'God' in their platform."Cant one believe in God without having God in the party platform? There
are plenty of people who believe that religion and government should be
separated. Why does that make them bad?"Mormons believe in
staying out of debt. The nation is $16 Trillion in debt and the Democrats want
to spend even more."Hate to break it to you but Republicans have
added significant amounts to our debt. Maybe more, or maybe less, but you would
be hard pressed to show a huge disparity."Mormons believe in the
law of the harvest, you reap what you sow. The Democrats believe in
redistribution of wealth."A good Fox news talking point but the
GOP is just as apt to "redistribute the wealth""Mormons
believe in supporting the poor by voluntary donations to a well-run welfare
program. "And that may work somewhat in utah. But I can assure
you that voluntary donations do not cover everyone.If you take the
blinders off, you will find that the parties are not that different in how they
Our country has been taken over evil, i.e., by bankster thieves that own and
control everything. Both parties have proven to be corrupt, if you keep track
on how they vote. They look out for the big coporations and banksters, and not
the people. These corporations that buy off most of our politicians are
destroying our country, our health, and our environment. I hope some day people
realize that both parties are ruled by the same globalist, and that lobbyist
from these big corporations hold the highest paying jobs within our government,
both Democratic and Republican positions. I am fed up with both political
parties, because they do NOT look out for what is best for the people, and they
buy into technologies that are destroying our health. I may be a registered
Republican, but after doing some research, they are not any more prolife when it
comes to allowing our foods, medications, water, etc., to be literally poisoned
with ingredients that will destroy our health. If you are prolife, you would
ensure the safety and the health of the people.
Re:AtwinThe sad truth is that Congress members spend more time
fundraising than in doing their jobs. Campaign financing has gotten way out of
control. The functioning of the legislature has changed dramatically over the
past 20 yrs. Legislators spend very little time legislating and debating the
merits of bills. Democrats in Congress are open to changing
campaign fundraising, instituting limits and more transparency. Republicans are
not. Govt waste is a problem--front and center is the Dept of
Defense whose accounts are in such disarray, it can't properly account for
a trillion in spending. Where is the outrage from Republicans? Democrats?
I have a hard time swallowing the idea that the Republican party is the party of
God. They always use abortion and gay rights as a way to bash anyone who dares
belong to the Democratic Party. Being a Democrat does not mean that you
automatically accept gay marriage or abortion. Some of us do believe, however,
that this country should be a place where a person has a right to choose for
himself or herself. As a gay person, I know what it can feel like being out of
place and I think that sometimes a person who is a democrat is often treated the
same way. that is why it is probably not a good idea to talk politics at church.
I don't say a lot in my own family because it gets too heated. Seriously,
we need both parties. It just wouldn't work with only one. I believe that
there are good people and ideas on both sides. If Huntsman would have ran for
President, i probably would have voted for him. Who says that I have to be one
or the other
I'm mostly a left-leaning Mormon, so I'm glad to see Utah politics may
be getting more balance. It's dangerous when all you hear are the same
ideas all the time, like being in an echo chamber. Especially when those ideas
tend to be so extreme and so ideological, which is where I think the center of
the Republican party is these days. I absolutely do not think God is a
Republican - that's absurd.I hope, however, we can all move
beyond political ideology, and start listening to each other and compromise to
find practical solutions. That's how democracy works, and why it isn't
working very well in America these days.
I just love it how people continue to equate forced confiscation of earnings and
property, and subsequent redistribution by the government. Oh yeah, I remember
the Savior advocating that the Roman government should pillage "the
rich" and then redistribute all their goods to "the poor" so that
people wouldn't have to be bothered with making voluntary choices
themselves. Yeah, and he also advocated that all the civilized populations go
out and absorb all other populations into theirs so they'd make sure those
other peoples were cared for in the style to which they'd like to become
accustomed. Uh huh. And the Tooth Fairy is asking the Easter Bunny to the
spring ball this year.
I found Harry Reid's attacks on Mitt Romney (e.g., tax cheat) anything but
honest or honorable.
Dante,I agree that Harry Reid was pathetic in saying that he had a
"source" that claims that Romney had not paid taxes in 10 years. Those
types of bombshells should be backed up.But, keep your eyes open.
You will find that sort of dishonesty almost daily on both sides of the
I have learned you have to have a balance. I voted for Bush both times, because
I could not support gay marriage or abortion. What I got was 8 years of absolute
disaster - huge debts, two terrible wars of questionable benefit, a Supreme
Court that has made disastrous decisions, etc. Obamacare: Jesus said
take care of the poor and needy. That doesn't mean you just give them a
blank check. However, with one sixth of Americans without health care, and about
the same number too poor to get all the food they need, you have to have
balance. Obamacare will not be perfect, but we need to give it a try. Health
insurance costs continue to rise - we need to get poor people out of emergency
rooms and into much cheaper preventative care.Climate change. There
is overwhelming evidence that we are causing climate change. Also destroying and
polluting our planet. God said to be stewards of his earth, not to trash it and
greedily exploit it. D&C 49:20: "But it is not given that one man should
possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin."
I would really like to see a large number of LDS voters join the Democratic
Party in Utah. Of course, it would create a shift in the local party values,
and ultimately a schism between the true Democrats and the true LDS. The only
way this could be beneficial to the Utah Democratic Party would be if many LDS
joined the party and at the same time adopted the values of the state party
leaders.It parallels the old expression: "You can take the boy
out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy."In this case: You can take the LDS out of the Republican Party, but you
can't take the Republican Party out of the LDS.
The honoring of Pol Pot and Mao are alleged to be a common idea that unite
Democrats. This absurd assertion is found in the MOST popular post to this
article. I will take the liberty of changing one word in the title of another
DN article in the Friday Deseret News. Can the cycle of
"ignorance" be broken?
@ SCfanclearfield, UT You wrote:"@ Baccus0902Gee, it's sure sad to hear you think that the two major political parties
in this great country are both "evil". Maybe you should try somewhere
else to live."Is that a broken record of limited minded
conservatives?On the contrary my dear SCfan, Capitalism is
inherently corrupted by greed, interest groups, etc. But it doesn't mean we
shouldn't challenge the status quo. Actually, as a Christian I think is our
obligation to be a light to the world and work for social justice.To
live in another country? Is there any country where its political parties are
not corrupt? In more or less degree wherever men look for power there is always
corruption.Besides, I don't believe in running away. I believe
in democracy and change. Therefore, I always try to do my part as a force for
change.SCfan, as the nation moves to a more fair and equal society
you may feel uncomfortable. Please don't leave. We always need an open
discourse with a variety of ideas.
Never have I felt so marginalized and ashamed of our people. All that is we are
missing is a rameumptom from which we can hurl our superior views towards those
I'm left enough that even the Dems are too far right for me. But I'd
rather vote Dem than GOP, because even though they are both beholden to the
plutocrats and bigwigs who think they should be allowed to run the country just
because they have more money than the rest of us, the Dems at least make an
effort to make government help all Americans. Policies that the GOP has offered
up and implemented seem designed only to help the rich, and to heck with
everyone else. As for things like abortion and same-sex marriage,
"banning" them doesn't work. Most people nowadays don't
remember what things were like before Roe v. Wade. I'd rather women had
safe legal abortions than unsafe illegal ones that killed and maimed them. And
I'd rather gay and lesbian people were encouraged to have long-term
monogamous relationships than for them to have more promiscuous lifestyles.
I am profoundly saddened by the realization who some of those who call
themselves my brothers and sisters in Christ really are. Most of the comments
above are by Mormon Republicans (although Democrats are certainly not immune)
who are spewing such negativity and condemnation, standing in self-righteous
judgment of fellow Saints who happen to support the other major political party
in this country. I have a hard time believing that these comments are prompted
and inspired by the Holy Spirit of Promise or that the One we serve would
approve of the animosity and intolerance displayed by your claims. As an African
American Mormon convert, I understand all too well why the Church is having such
difficulty attracting and retaining minority converts--the challenge is harder
when members vocally condemn and view as less worthy any brothers and sisters
who do not share their Republican ideology. During election years I always feel
like I need to stop coming to church until the election is over to avoid losing
my respect for many of the brethren and my testimony that the Church is true. I
certainly pray that nonmember friends don't hear this unChristianlike
You don't have to be a member of the GOP to be a Mormon but I honestly
don't see how you could be a Democrat and be a Mormon seeing that the party
platform is built on abortion - even late term abortion as well as homosexual
marriage. If you find yourself not wanting to be a member of the GOP and you
can't tolerate the out right anti Christian culture of the Democrat party
then choose to be an Independent!!
Dear SouthernPalm'I hope you can pray just as hard for those
who support abortion, nationalized socialism of our health care, loss of the
first and second amendments, and destruction of the financial stability of our
nations with never increasing debt, immorality and debauchery..... and the list
goes on and on and on ….
@ SouthernPalmThank you for bringing some perspective into this
debate. But I can assure you you that they started it :)Peace and love to all!!
Why I am not a Republican: materialism, greed, disregard for the poor,
corruption, hypocrisy (no welfare for the poor but plenty for big business)Why I am not a Democrat: hatred of religion, moral relativism,
"tolerance" only for those they agree with, destruction of moral values
our country was founded onAs a lifelong democrat, I cannot honestly
call myself one anymore. My party has left me. But I cannot honestly align with
the republicans either. Solution: Study the issues by looking at
both sides, prayerfully vote my conscience based on the issues most important to
me, and follow Christ (who does not affiliate with a political party
SouthernPalm:Thank you for your comments. I truly hope that our
fellow brothers and sisters will read them with an open heart and mind. Republicanism does not equal Mormonism. Until we as Latter-Day Saints
rise above the world and live as disciples of Christ in all we do, we will not
be seen as a "light upon the hill".Eternal life is far more
important than winning some petty, temporal, political arguments.
@Rick for Truth:I pray for all people equally. We are
all children of a loving Heavenly Father. Jesus Christ atoned for
the sins of everyone.
Like many here I am no fan of today's GOP. However, after skimming many of
the comments here from democrat mormons I am amazed at the powers of self
delusion we humans possess. In the ward I grew up in we had a very sweet elderly
sister of German decent. She spoke to us on a few occasions of her and her
first husbands membership in the Nazi party and told us of how her husband was
killed in action fighting for Germany. Mind you, they did not agree with
rounding up Jews and murdering them. They never did that themselves. They just
liked how Hitler was going to fix their economy and make them proud to be German
again. That is what I see now here. "If your against abortion don't
have one", or "I don't personally support gay marriage and
abortion, but... " It seems to me that when you support and give power to
people who will do these things it is as good as. What truly frightens me is
that these statements are just a hop, skip and jump from "I was just
I'm actually very disappointed that so many Mormons in the western US (it
isn't like this everywhere, honest!) are so automatically knee-jerk
Republicans. For the last 30 years, the Republican party has been all about
Mammon, not God; and when they DO invoke God on "moral issues" (which
seem always only to be abortion and homosexuality, never, for example, the
immorality of poverty), it's a God I don't want any part of. No, the
Dems are far from perfect; but I wish Mormon Republicans would step back, and
take a serious hard look at what elected Republicans have ACTUALLY DONE in the
last decade or so. Like starting two wars and cutting taxes at the same time,
which is now responsible for at least half of the US total debt. Like making it
harder for people to vote. Like bringing in laws of dubious constitutionality
that infringe on our freedoms (e.g. the PATRIOT Act). Honestly, that one Jon
McNaughton painting should have shown W. holding the burning constitution, not
@ Redwing:You wrote;"Eternal life is far more important
than winning some petty, temporal, political arguments." I agree
100 % with you. However, I say is not important (at least for me) to win or
loose an argument. But being able to express yourself and learn from others how
you/they perceive God in ourlife. The problem, from my point of view
is that our religious and political lives don't need be inconsistents .
Yet we see inconsistencies. I'm reminded of the words by John.1 john
4:20 "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.
For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot
love God, whom they have not seen".When in our self righteouness
we condemn other brothers or sisters because they don't live our same life
style, or don't believe what we believe. We consider them not good LDS or
whatever....it just shows how human and weak we are.If we are
Democrats, Republicans,or whatever, we should be able to put that sectarianism
notion aside for the well being of our country.
It's offensive that they would use their religion label to push politics.
Could you imagine the uproar, especially in Utah if LDS Republicans did the same
thing. "I'm a Mormon and Republican" or "LDS
Republican".Typical do as I say and not as I do.
I'm active LDS, a temple rec holder, and I am a registered Dem. I accept
that being a Democrat and a Mormon occasionally presents problems for a
believer, but so does being a Republican and a Mormon (pre-emptive war, tax cuts
for the rich, reverence for wealth, lack of charity for immigrants, etc.,
etc.).For me, it's not a question of which party aligns with
the Gospel, because neither do. I would guess that both the Repub and Dem
parties are an offense to God, and far from the Zion ideal. So for me, it's
a question of which party is LESS offensive--to me, not to you. It's a
choice between two evils. And for me--as a believing Mormon and descendant of
Hyrum Smith on one side of my family, and pioneers and church leaders on the
other--that party is the Democratic party. But I'm perfectly fine and happy
that a majority of the people I sit with, say, in High Priests Group meeting on
Sunday have come to a different conclusion. It's okay.
To LDS who challenge me with, "How do you reconcile being a Dem with being a
Mormon also"...well, I generally do not answer. I might just as easily flip
the question and turn it back on my interlocutor. But what would be the point?
Of course, to any who are genuinely interested in dialogue and understanding, I
am happy to open up with.
As I explain in my blog series entitled, Why Mormons are Conservative
Republicans, I do not think it is possible to be a Democrat and a Mormon in this
day and age.I'm a 7th generation Utah Mormon, although I do not
currently live in Utah. Also, I hold a Ph.D. in government and taught as a
professor, in political science departments, for about ten years. (My health
does not currently allow me to work full-time.)My blog series is a
reasoned analysis. There is no partisan, emotional rhetoric in it. Just Google
my name and blog title and you will find my series.
Hi, Krista Cook,There are other people (Hugh Nibley, for example, a
well know Democrat), just as qualified as you, who have looked at the question
and come up with a different answer. My wife (though she is an artist and not a
political scientist or anything like that) was born into a European socialist
democracy, and would probably today identify as a socialist (she votes Dem). We
sometimes return to her country or origin so she can get healthcare that is
available to her there that is not here. She is mostly amused at the penchant of
some of her LDS brothers and sisters who tell her it is not possible to be a Dem
and good Mormon (She will usually say something like, "Well, I am proof you
are wrong," and then smile). I say she is amused, but sometimes--for
example, during the 2008 election--it was alarming to her.
Maybe its time we dump both parties since they are basically the same now.
In the context of this article and comments, the following Hugh Nibley quote is
interesting:"Nothing is easier than to identify one’s own
favorite political...convictions with the gospel.... If my ideas are the true
ones...to oppose them is to play the role of Satan. This is simply insisting
that our way is God’s way, and therefore the only way. It is the height of
impertinence." - Hugh Nibley
Interesting Krista Cook, there are LDS Democrats in the leadership of the
Church. Leadership on all levels including General Authorities, there always
have been also. I think that the Lord knows that they are Democrats but still
called them to serve in the highest offices of his Church. I guess that you know
more about it then they do right?Just because your blog contains
"reasoned analysis" and "no partisan, emotional rhetoric"
doesn't mean that you are correct or not mistaken, or that you aren't
writing with a specific agenda.
It is evident to me that people making comments about my comment have not read
my blog series. I've already addressed their points in my blog and
won't address them in this forum.People claim to be of one
party or another but when you analyze their ideology it is often different than
the label they claim for themselves. This often results from family
tradition.Looking at voting records of Mormon Democrats usually
reveals they vote more Republican than most Republicans.
I checked my blog and the series has had no hits since I posted on this forum.
So, none of you are criticizing my actual ideas.Since I wrote my
blog the Salt Lake Tribune published an article in December 2012 entitled,
"Top Mormon church posts dominated by registered Republicans."Here are some quotes:Eleven of the 15 apostles of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — including LDS President Thomas S.
Monson — are registered Republicans, according to public records obtained
by The Salt Lake Tribune.The other four did not affiliate with any
political party when they registered to vote and none of them voted in this
year's Democratic primary. All 15 voted this November. . . .The four
politically unaffiliated apostles are the governing First Presidency's
second counselor, Dieter F. Uchtdorf; and David A. Bednar, Quentin L. Cook and
D. Todd Christofferson, of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles...Uchtdorf — who
was born in the Czech Republic and only recently became a U.S. citizen —
did, however, register as a Republican to vote in the primary this year and then
changed his registration back to unaffiliated.
I hold a PhD in literature and languages, am a registered Democrat, and am an
active, believing Mormon. Principles of the Gospel exist in the
party platforms of both major US parties. For those of us who have lived
outside the United States for any amount of time, we understand that in the
global sense, the US political parties have inconsequential differences between
each other, and our adherence to them is more an expression of nuance than any
serious philosophical differences. We also understand that principles of the
Gospel exist in a vast array of political traditions throughout the world.I knew an elder on my mission who was from Europe. In a guarded,
private conversation, he confessed that he was a member of the Socialist Party
in his country, but he could never tell a Utah Republican that because the Utah
Republican would have acted in a very un-Christian manner toward him.Let us, by all means, seek the nuance we're most comfortable with, and
preserve our adherence to the Gospel even in the midst of political
disagreements. Besides, political diversity is good for the Church, and
politically diverse Mormons are good for their respective countries.
Actually I did look at it, I wouldn't call it a scholarly analysis, at
least not compared to others that I've read. There are a lot of statements
in there that don't seem to be backed up. It is an opinion piece, it is
broken into about ten different categories so it is easy to read. The LDS Church
is a worldwide organization. There are members in countries that have a variety
of different political systems. You can be an active faithful LDS person and be
a Democrat at the same time. The Liberal perspective can be justified with
scripture and doctrine as easily as the conservative perspective can be. You can
easily find both on line on numerous blogs if you look. Also, to the commenter
who said that the Democratic party is built on abortion, not true. Most LDS Dems
view on the subject is the same as the LDS Church's. Late term, is only
done in emergency situations, the SCOTUS ruled on this years ago. It is only
done to save a life and even then it is still the Mother's choice. There
are other choices btw, like adoption!
PAC, if it seems to you that members of the church are being divided, it
isn't the Democrats (or the Republicans, for that matter) who are doing it.
It is the choice being made by the individuals themselves. It's called
"agency". Now, the reason I choose the party I do is not because it
"pushes" this or that thing certain belief groups don't like. It is
that I, or you, do not have the right to tell others not of our faith or belief
system what they should think is right or wrong. Nor can we say with certainty
if certain things are or are not so, what will or will not be necessary in
someone else's life, and who does or does not have the last word on what
God does or doesn't want besides Him. Until we get a giant helping of
humility in not only our leaders, but in the rest of us, there will be these
unfortunate divisions. The parties are simply convenient scapegoats.
Krista,You have obviously gone to great lengths to show that the LDS
church leaders are not "democrats".Does that prove your
point? From a religious standpoint, you may be obsessing with
things that don't matter.Me? I think it is best to leave
religion out of politics. And vice versa
With the majority of the world's Mormons now living outside the United
States, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to make a uniform judgment as
to where Mormons would (or should) fit into their respective political systems.
I have my political and moral perspective (and reasons why I personally do not
feel welcome in the Democratic Party). Nonetheless, I would not presume to make
across-the-board political judgments for Mormons in Great Britain, India,
Germany, Ukraine, the Congo, South Africa, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, or New
Caledonia. Being in the "hip pocket" of one political party in the US
will not do us much good when it comes to going forth "boldly, nobly and
independent," and witnessing for Christ and the Gospel in the far corners
and reaches of the earth
I read that list and no one really knows who the General Authorities, their
wives, or families, vote for, even if their voter affiliation is known. And,
frankly, it is nobody's business. That's what is meant by a secret
ballot. One may, if one wishes, share that information. But even declaring
support for a candidate doesn't guarantee the actual vote, does it? For all
we know, the entire Bush family voted for Ron Paul in '08, or maybe even
for President Obama...or Alfred E. Newman! My point is, there is a place in time
when an individual's contribution to democracy is truly personal. And none
of yours, mine, or anyone's business.
This article has a lot of pomp and circumstance trying to gain support but it
lacks credible evidence as to how the democratic party is good for Latter-day
Saints and what LDS members can gain by being a part of its empty handed
endeavors. When I was on my mission, I found out that my mission president was
in fact a demo and my jaw just dropped and shattered into a gazillion pieces. I
thought how can somebody who has been entrusted to be an example to missionaries
and members subscribe to such liberal views that contradict church principles
and doctrines? When he came home and became a stake patriarch, I again thought
how can someone who dances with the political and oftentimes religious/spiritual
adversary be entrusted to give members one of the most sacred blessings in their
lives? He seems to agree in small amounts with conservative views but I wonder
how willing to cross the line he remains.
@Tahoemormon70: keep pondering and wrestling with that question...it might take
a few years, but you might eventually have an earth-shattering revelation and
realize that a lot of what you "knew" to be true is actually not true at
all. You might have an experience or two that makes suddenly makes it all very
clear to you how a mission president and patriarch can be a liberal as well.
Even if you never come around to accepting his political beliefs, you might at
least have a deeper appreciation for why good people can have significantly
different points of view.I know of what I speak here. As a young
return missionary, I was about as conservative as they came. But time and
experience has changed my perspectives considerably and I now identify as a
pretty liberal Democrat - a change that would have shocked me to my core had I
known 20 years ago that this is where I would be today.
I was raised to be a good member of the LDS church and democratic party. My
grandparents and parents have shown me the way. I will continue in our
independent and thoughtful traditions.
You mean moderates, right?
So LDS folk support the Republican Party because they think the Republican party
shares their values? Really? I just don't think it's
congruent with Mormon values to support a party that launched a war with bogus
claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. This ill-advised war
has cost the U.S. over $800 billion dollars. Add the war that the Republicans
started in Afghanistan, and you have war costs racking up to over $1.4 trillion.
Remember too that Bill Clinton, a Democrat, gave the country a
balanced budget. The Republicans took over, promptly cut taxes for the rich,
started two wars and ran the economy into the ground. These are not Mormon
Well, I'm convinced after reading all the comments that to be Democrat and
LDS is not compatible. I'll have to change one of them. DN
promotes Republican candidates, stances and parties further bolstering the idea
that the Republican platform aligns more closely with the LDS church.re:KristaCookFeedback to your blogDemocrats believe in
a strong military for defensive purposes. Democrats believe in personal
responsibility recognizing that few people in life never need assistance from
outside sources. Luck plays a large role in determining success in life. Democrats believe religion and charity, in addition to the govt. can and
should play a role in providing/helping the disadvantaged. The Catholic Church,
which does a tremendous amt of charity work, also believes govt. have a role to
play in relieving suffering. Was King Benjamin talking about all
taxes being evil OR was he talking about taxes that are imposed to personally
enrich those in power as evil? Were the key words "lawyers and
judges" or were the key words "unrighteous?" It seems you are
suggesting a majority of lawyers and judges are unrighteous, hence the reason
many donate to Democrats. Your conclusions reveal quite a leap of
"It would also contradict the intent and purpose of the Church, which
acknowledges and protects the moral agency of each of God's children,
President Uchtdorf added. "As disciples of Jesus Christ, we are united in
our testimony of the restored gospel and our commitment to keep God's
commandments. But we are diverse in our cultural, social and political
preferences.""The Church thrives when members take advantage of this
diversity and encourage each other to develop and use talents to strengthen one
another, he said."@Krista Cook - See above. I hope you're
paying attention to General Conference.
Can they escape extreme, dogmatic, emotional nineteen fifty based mentality?
Can they turn off Hannity and Limbaugh?
There are conflicts with gospel principles within both parties. In my opinion,
the Democratic party has gone way too far left on basic moral issues. The
Republicans have gone too far to the right. I see distortions and downright
lies from both parties. Therefore, I vote for the person based on his values,
rather than the party's values. Most often, this has led me to vote
Republican or third party, with three or four local and state-level Democrats
over the last 35 years. Occasionally, I have written in a name when no
acceptable candidate could be found.While it is probably true that
more of the apostles are registered Republicans than registered Democrats, I
know of a few in recent history that have been Democrats. President Faust was
an example, proving that you can be a good member of the Church and a Democrat.
The evidence indicates that party affiliation doesn't matter as much as
whether or not you stand up for the things you value the most. Instead of
condemning your fellowmen because of party affiliation, we should praise them
for working within the party of their choice to change the party for the better.
@Clifton Brown, So you came home off of your mission being as hard-core
conservative as you probably ever were. Through your life's experiences,
you slowly swung your personal pendulum over to the liberal(maybe, demo) side.
Were those experiences due to a desire to be more like the Savior or where they
because you didn't want seem affiliated with the typical conservative
Republican member of the Church? Also, the Church in an official sense states
political neutrality although when it comes to questions of moral matters, it
will pick a side(same-sex attraction and marriage, abortion, cloning, etc...).
Can you tell me, did your internal paradigm shift have anything to do with those
matters that the Church has told its members to vote for or against? If yes,
how can you reconcile personal choice with the Church's stance on
socio-political issues? That is the thing I have with my mission president is,
is yes, he does have his right to choose his political views, but being a
liberal democrat, he can only venture so far before his views start to polarize
greatly with that of the Church's.
TahoeIt is disingenuous to state that the Church instructed its
members to vote on a specific issue in a particular way. If you are thinking of
Prop 8, Elder Clayton of the Presidency of the 70, the leader specifically
tasked with dealing with that issue, explicitly stated that members in CA should
feel free to vote on the issue as they wish and would be temple-worthy, members
in full fellowship regardless of how they voted.
There are Democrats in my ward (in Seattle) and I try to understand them, but
can't. One said that he followed what King Benjamin said but I see a
difference between individual charity and government enforced charity just as
there is a difference between freely doing good and being forced to do good (so
that none shall be lost). I won't say IMHO who wants the honor.
Re:GreggWeberAgency gives us all the ability to choose our thoughts,
attitudes, feelings no matter the circumstances in which we live.You
live in a democracy and get to vote your conscience, though there may be
policies and laws enacted which you don't agree with. Left or right, we
all experience frustration when things don't go our way. You
have the choice to view the taxes you pay designated to help the poor, elderly,
disabled and children as forced charity. I choose differently. If the
taxes i pay are used to feed a child, give an elderly or disabled person a
measure of dignity it is well spent and i am glad for a system that requires
everybody to "chip-in" because a totally volunteer system would result
in much suffering and death. I also believe that paying taxes isn't
enough--volunteer charity is essential as well. That said, we ought
to remain vigilant to make sure our taxes are used for good purposes and not for
Truthseeker, I'm sorry, but you have a distorted view of
"agency". The definition of agency is "the state of being in action
or exerting power". I can't say I have agency if I don't have the
power to give my own, hard-earned money freely to the charity or cause of my
choice, no matter how hard I try to justify it. The government is taking enough
of my income now that I am limited in my own personal cash donations. If I
choose to be stingy and not give anything, then that is what I am judged on. Free agency is not a state of mind-either you are able to make your own
choices or you are not. Just because you "agree" with the big government
spending mentality doesn't mean I "choose" it, and I really
can't convince myself otherwise like you can. Government wastes
an exorbitant amount of money with a lot of fraud involved. Poverty,
unemployment, food stamp use, etc. is very high. You should look into it. We are
a welfare state.
Re:LovelifeI recommend you read Dallin H. Oak, "Free Agency and
Freedom" where he states;"First, because free agency is a
God-given precondition to the purpose of mortal life, no person or organization
can take away our free agency in mortality.Second, what can be taken
away or reduced by the conditions of mortality is our freedom, the power to act
upon our choices. Free agency is absolute, but in the circumstances of mortality
freedom is always qualified.Freedom may be qualified or taken away
(1) by physical laws, including the physical limitations with which we are born,
(2) by our own action, and (3) by the action of others, including
governments........Interferences with our freedom do not deprive us of our free
agency. When Pharaoh put Joseph in prison, he restricted Joseph's freedom,
but he did not take away his free agency. "
Truthseeker, which best describes a “free agent” in sports?One who is free to decide which team he’d like to pursue and try out
for?One who has been traded to another team, with no input, even if he
likes the new team? Doctrine & Covenants 134:2 says “We
believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and
held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of
conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of
life.” How can I be judged on my works if I am forced to pay
higher taxes for “welfare”, especially knowing that the money is
being mishandled (i.e. green energy companies)?You want to exercise
your free agency after you’ve given up your freedom. Your interpretation
of Elder Oaks' talk could justify communism. I want to keep my freedom
(complete with consequences and laws that preserve individual rights, as Elder
Oaks said, “some government limitations) and exercise my free agency
accordingly. Another good read would be Marion G. Romney “Is
Socialism the United Order?” from April 1966.
Re:LoveLifeYou have choices. You simply don't like the
consequences of all the choices. You could choose to not pay taxes, and risk
being put in prison. You could choose to move to another country with a tax
system more to your liking. You could choose to vote for different leaders.
You can choose to become involved in fighting fraud. You could choose to become
more involved with charitable organizations etc. Finally, you can choose to
look at the issue differently. Every American pays for things they
don't use or agree with. Childless couples pay taxes to educate children.
Pacificists pay for the big military complex and the wars we wage--(one of the
biggest sources of fraud and waste in our economy). The list goes on. We live
in a democracy, are free to donate to political campaigns and exercise our
choices via the ballot box.
Obama can say, “I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good
for everybody” and “I do think at a certain point you've made
enough money”. He can win elections by promising other people’s
money. Am I supposed to lie to myself and say that my money is going
to a good cause when there is absolutely no evidence of that? This man who
promised to fight for the poor with the money of “the rich” yet goes
on $8 million vacations? Or I go to jail? I have done several things
you mentioned. I now have less disposable income to contribute to political
causes. Convenient, isn’t it? Elder Oaks (same talk):
“We ought to focus on the legality or wisdom of a proposed restriction of
our freedom.”So I still don’t take Elder Oaks’
words to mean we just lay down with a “good attitude” when
government takes away our freedoms. I’ll keep fighting the good fight, but
I will not leave my birth country whose Constitution protects my inalienable
What I don't understand is why it is that where the Church is crazy neutral
on most political things why it is that a political group would come together
and try to compromise that stance by associating their political group with the
Church.I can understand how you people can jump to believing the
teachings of Jesus Christ fall in line with the democratic party. I don't
consider myself a republican but I prefer to associate with their political
ideas. As conservatives we often overlook the fact that we tend to stifle
personal liberties as well they just happen to be different personal liberties.
Both sides of the political spectrum just tend to think their personal liberty
stifling is justified. I share a common hate for all political
parties. I really wish we could get rid of them. I also really wish
organizations such as this one that try to associate with something that is not
associated with them would go away.
I also think the all or nothing argument that has shown up in here is important.
I think it is really unhealthy (as a country or specifically as LDS Church
members) to become so aligned with political parties. Each situation is
different. Each situation needs to have some measure of variability in how we
approach its resolution. Aligning so strongly with parties limits our ability
as a nation to resolve problems. Aside from it limiting our ability
to solve problems it also makes us hate each other. From this hate stems some
pretty outlandish stereotypes. If you don't believe me just read the
comments on this article(some of them are pretty good though). God is not a
republican, nor is he a democrat. He's also not a (*insert any other
political affiliation or non-affiliation).