Herbert vetoes controversial gun carry bill

'We're not the wild and woolly West,' governor says


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    March 25, 2013 11:16 a.m.

    Not happy with this veto. I will now support another candidate to replace Herbert in the primaries next time around. This is a blow to the 2nd Amendment, I was a Herbert supporter but no longer.

  • Alfred Pheonix, AZ
    March 24, 2013 6:45 p.m.

    @Irony Guy:
    "None of these wild gun nuts has ever even tried to answer my 2A question: what is the meaning of 'well-regulated'?"

    It's opposite of poorly regulated which is akin to the Democrat party.

  • Sophie 62 spring city, UT
    March 24, 2013 4:50 p.m.

    To those who favor no infringement of any person to carry any kind of weapon anytime - You can be the first to pass out guns and ammmo to everyone in jail or prison, or all the people in mental institutions, or who have fragile mental and emotional health, or all the children on playgrounds.
    No infringement does mean everybody doesn't it?
    And surely it means any kind of weapon? If you're strong enough to carry it, you may?

    Enough of this chest-pounding and saber-rattling. Good grief.
    I can tell you that I do not feel safer knowing that any yahoo can carry a gun around in his pocket. Those guys in their tall trucks tailgating me when I'm going 65 in the slow lane? He's got a gun, along with his belligerent attitude? No thank you, I do not feel safer.
    Somewhere there has to be some common sense.
    Thanks Governor, for showing that.

  • Whiteshoes Hurricane, UT
    March 24, 2013 3:21 p.m.

    I support gun rights, but the governor is right on this. Our concealed permits serve a purpose. To be frank, I'd like to see some type of gun proficiency skill be a prerequisite for the permit. I would feel much better knowing those who choose to conceal are proficient with a weapon. I wish those with mental illness were prohibited from getting a weapon aw well.

  • GrandmaJulie Layton, UT
    March 24, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    I wonder how much of his decision was based on the state "fees" for Concealed Carry drying up?

    The state makes a lot of money on fees which would probably dry up if this became law. It probably was the main reason for the veto.

  • Oldy Glocks Orem, UT
    March 24, 2013 6:13 a.m.

    As usual, we see the division of the people regarding any constitutional right. I wonder why the Constitution is never mentioned. Is everyone so unsure of what it contains that they fear to bring it up in conversation?

  • provo.res Provo, UT
    March 24, 2013 12:27 a.m.

    Thank you, Gov. Herbert!

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    March 23, 2013 10:09 p.m.

    "WRZ - either it is wide open.... everyone gets to bear arms... no limitations what so ever.... or there are limitations."

    That's for legislators to decide... not you, not me, not the courts. The Founding Fathers wrote the Amendment... and they also wrote how to amend the Constitution should there be a need in succeeding generations.

    "You simply can't pick and choose parts that only fit your agenda."

    Who's picking the parts? The 2nd Amendment leaves no parts to pick. It plainly says 'shall not be infringed.' If you (or anyone) starts picking parts the Amendment is violated. And the Supreme Court has no choice but to rule that way. It cannot create law or change the Constitution. Only the Legislative Branch can do that.

    "Be really careful what you ask for. You might get exactly what you want, and a whole lot of what you don't want. It's called the law of unintended consequences.

    Don't blame me. Blame the Founding Fathers... and blame the US Congress for not solving the obvious problem with the 2nd Amendment you cite. Congress refuses mostly because they're loathe to tackling tough political problems.

  • SP Salt Lake City, UT
    March 23, 2013 9:41 p.m.

    Good job to the Governor. I hope the Legislature will use their time to deal with real issues that really improve lives. This bill was a waste of their limited time in session.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    March 23, 2013 8:59 p.m.

    WRZ - either it is wide open.... everyone gets to bear arms... no limitations what so ever.... or there are limitations. You can't say "no limitations for me", but this class of people, what ever they might be, felons, are excluded and don't have the same rights. You simple can't pick and choose parts that only fit your agenda. If you truly believe that there are no limitations, you have to go all the way.

    Be really careful what you ask for. You might get exactly what you want, and a whole lot of what you don't want. It's called the law of unintended consequences.

    You are about to legally arm a whole class of people who care a lot less about the sanctity of life than you... who will not have that mental pause deciding to I pull the trigger, or not.

    It goes along with screaming fire in a crowded movie house... just because you can. Or pornography.... if we want to go down the road of free speech. If we want to go down the road of literal translation, be really prepared for decency laws of all kind to be stricken down.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 23, 2013 8:33 p.m.

    I consider myself a pretty hard core right winger and I'm definitely pro- 2nd Amendment but I actually applaud Gov Herbert for this veto. I think it was bad legislation. I don't have a concealed carry permit and I'm glad others do but I don't really feel the need to carry a concealed weapon except in my vehicle. I think I should have the right to carry a concealed weapon in my glovebox for example without a permit but I don't like the idea of anyone with no permit being allowed to carry concealed.

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    March 23, 2013 5:15 p.m.

    "It's a little comforting knowing those carrying now have at least been through CCP class, but it needs to get better as I said."

    How did you come by the 'comforting?' Do people who carry weapons say 'look folks, I've got a gun but not to worry, I have a permit to hide it?' I don't think so. You don't know who has a gun and who hasn't. Nor do you know who has had CCP training and who hasn't.

    "It doesn't say minors can't bring arms to school. It doesn't say you can carry a gun, except on commercial aviation."

    What it does say is that 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'

    "You really ready to go down the path of strict interpretation of that clause."

    If you don't go down the path of strict interpretation then the whole thing (Constitution) is open to a plethora of interpretations.

    If there is to be other than a strict interpretation, it's the job of the US Congress to modify the Amendment to permit amplifications. Until then, the 2nd Amendment stands.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    March 23, 2013 5:07 p.m.

    None of these wild gun nuts has ever even tried to answer my 2A question: what is the meaning of "well-regulated"?

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    March 23, 2013 4:37 p.m.

    "I think it would be a deterrent to crime, because more than ever criminals would have to wonder 'if I mess with this person, does he/she have a gun?'"

    How you gonna know if he/she had a gun? Permits are not displayed on the shirt/blouse.

    Requiring background checks/permits is meaningless because the 2nd Amendment says something like... 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If a person fails a background check or is refused a permit... he/she can still pack. The Constitution says so.

    What part of 'shall not be infringed' do people not understand?

  • Emajor_ Ogden, UT
    March 23, 2013 1:12 p.m.

    This state is amazing. A socially and fiscally conservative governor makes a common sense decision on a controversial bill and he is immediately pilloried as a RINO, anti-2nd Amendment, wimpy Democrat who will never receive another vote simply because he doesn't share their concealed-carry-without-permit fetish.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    March 23, 2013 12:16 p.m.

    @booshway - based on your comments, there should be no restrictions on what "arms" anyone should one, because the constitution doesn't say convicted felons cant have weapons. It doesn't say minors can't bring arms to school. It doesn't say you can carry a gun, except on commercial aviation.

    You really ready to go down the path of strict interpretation of that clause. Because you can't have it both ways. You cant say this right has no limitations, then complain that some extremist group in the area has RPGs or SAMs. If you have want to claim a very literal interpretation - so that it benefits what you want... be prepared for that precedent to be applied to all facets of daily life.

    Jefferson wrote "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." Taken to its limits, the state could not afford any religion any benefit or allow religion in any aspect of government life.

    Lets be careful before we run to extreme interpretations.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    March 23, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    Common sense prevailed. Good job, Governor Herbert. Thank you.

  • BYR Woods Cross, UT
    March 23, 2013 11:58 a.m.

    As a gun owner with a conceal permit, good on ya Gary. Had he signed this bill, the lack of training would have become a larger issue than actually carrying.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    March 23, 2013 11:45 a.m.

    I will back this bill when you show me where it saya you have to have the governments permission to carry. "Shall not be infringed" is the key to the whole issue.

  • joseywales Park City, UT
    March 23, 2013 11:32 a.m.

    I'm a gun guy and have let these forums know it. I do agree with those that say that we should tighten up the CCP. At my class, there were guys and gal fumbling with the gun like they were scared of it. It scared me, because if you treat a weapon that way, only bad things can happen. I would like to see some more handling and gun care involved in the CCP classes. A tougher test for sure. As much as I love guns, I agree that this law needed some more discussion and I'm not convinced it was a good idea anyway. Having anyone just putting a pistol in their pocket scares me. It's a little comforting knowing those carrying now have at least been through CCP class, but it needs to get better as I said.

    I know criminals don't care about laws, and they will do what they want, but that doesn't mean that we should have a law so that people who are unfamiliar with guns, can just carry as well. I know they can open carry, but at least then, you can avoid them.

  • Moabmom Moab, UT
    March 23, 2013 9:46 a.m.

    Spineless! Absolutely spineless. At least any questions I had about just how "progressive" Gov. Herbert really is are now perfectly clear. He has proved himself to be just another pandering politician unwilling to stand against the lies and false rhetoric of the liberal left. Utah deserves better.

  • angie in bountiful BOUNTIFUL, UT
    March 23, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    Thank you Gov. Herbert. We need to be trained and the concealed carry law and training is working. Don't mess with it.

  • Christopher1820 Layton, UT
    March 23, 2013 7:50 a.m.

    Thank Goodness for moderation.

  • booshway Woods Cross, UT
    March 23, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    Too bad that the governor vetoed a bill that recognises what the U.S. Constitution says - the right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Nothing in the Constitution says anything about or allows for licenses, permits, fees, training (maybe the well-regulated part), restrictions or exclusions of any sort.

  • lex loci Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 23, 2013 7:28 a.m.

    Disappointing. There is no evidence that covering a gun that can now lawfully be openly carried will lead to greater gun violence. I am a responsible citizen trained to use guns in a hunter's safety course, who would like to carry a gun without creating a stir among others and I am not a CCP holder. I would would like to see a common sense extension to the already existing open carry laws. It seems this veto and the surrounding rational are based on fear of everyone all of the sudden carrying a gun rather than on evidence from Vermont, Alaska, Wyoming or Arizona. I can't respect a decision based on fear.

    I will be less likely to support this politician based on this veto.

  • Utah-expatriot Valley Center, KS
    March 23, 2013 6:48 a.m.

    Very disappointing.

  • Brax utah, UT
    March 23, 2013 6:37 a.m.

    Happy with the Govenor this far but sorely disappointed in this Govenor on this veto. He missed an opportunity to truely stand up for freedom here. Will vote him out next election. Bad move Govenor!

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    March 23, 2013 5:16 a.m.

    Good news, there are too many crazy's out there. It will save the legal conceal carrry holder some worries about having to defend himself from one of these "road rager" type. Another good move by a very good Governer. Folks, uit slamming the NRA, they are the best gun safety advocates we have.

    March 22, 2013 10:40 p.m.

    THANKS Governor Herbert for doing the right thing with your veto.

  • Walt Nicholes Orem, UT
    March 22, 2013 9:36 p.m.

    Herbert said. "I don't like the fact that it divides our state."

    Vetoing the bill did not remove that division.

    Making open carry advocates carry obvious did not remove that division.

    Taking the side of gun control nuts will not remove that distinction.

    G. Herbert has made a moral and political mistake.

  • SuziQ Springville, UT
    March 22, 2013 7:46 p.m.

    I get so tired of the rhetoric and fear-mongering. Why on earth would any of us welcome a bill that encourages more guns out in the public arena? I would think that it might matter to law abiding citizens that law enforcement was not in favor of the bill. Their job is hard enough without them having to wonder how many people are packing and why. I still wonder how anyone can identify the good guys from the bad guys when you are caught in the crosshairs of either one. It is like playing a giant game of chicken, wondering who is going to pull the trigger first. Does this mean that the only way to stay safe is to pack a gun? I sure hope not. I think that I would rather take my chances than feel obligated to carry a gun. What kind of society do we live in when fear is our dominant emotion?

  • seegum OREM, UT
    March 22, 2013 6:54 p.m.

    The Governor vetoed the bill after objections from law enforcement (among others), so I must ask: if we're in the business of making it harder for ordinary citizens to protect themselves in order to make it easier for police officers to protect themselves, then why do we have police officers in the first place? They seem like a privileged class living off of our vulnerability.

    As I see it, we should first determine how best to empower ordinary citizens to protect themselves -- the safety of law enforcement completely aside -- and only after we have done that should we address the safety of law enforcement with the remainder. If not, then they're cutting into our principle, so to speak, and that defeats the purpose.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    March 22, 2013 6:18 p.m.

    I understand the governor's office received thousands of phone calls and emails and other message both for and against the veto of this bill.

    Will DN provide a tally of those? How many Utah citizens supported and how many opposed the veto?

    That is very critical information.

    March 22, 2013 6:21 p.m.

    As an avid sportsman and hunter, I applaud the Governor's veto. Thanks GOV!

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    March 22, 2013 6:13 p.m.

    That was a needed veto.

  • Big Bubba Herriman, UT
    March 22, 2013 6:13 p.m.

    Three cheers for Governor Herbert.

    Hip Hip Hooray!
    Hip Hip Hooray!
    Hip Hip Hooray!

    Now what is wrong with our state legislators?

  • lwad PROVO, UT
    March 22, 2013 6:02 p.m.

    Way to go, Governor Herbert!

  • IRS Agent PROVO, UT
    March 22, 2013 5:16 p.m.

    So much for representing the people. That's the problem with our Gov representatives. They think they need to protect us and look out for us, not represent us. The fact that the SLC Sheriff has already said he will enforce unconstitutional dictates from the White House over his sworn duty to defend the constitution shows just how broke our system is. Utah is not as far right as people think. The people are just asleep - "All is well in Zion".

  • Chase Saint George, UT
    March 22, 2013 5:04 p.m.

    As John Eddy stated above, laws that put criminals on higher ground than law abiding citizens is not common sense.
    Does the public know that open carry is already permitted? Somehow they feel safer? If the law is changed, MORE law abiding citizens will carry. Do you think more criminals will carry because the law permits them? Since when do criminals regard laws?

    How many times must it be said that criminals will conseal no matter what the laws are? Does that resonate with anyone?

    Current law gives criminals the upper hand. THIS is common sense.

  • Economist Salt Lake City, UT
    March 22, 2013 5:00 p.m.

    Gov. Herbert said, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
    Wonder if that saying goes for vetoing any legislation that would move the Draper Prison from the POint of the Mountain as well?

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    March 22, 2013 4:59 p.m.

    "The criminal element already carries concealed without a permit. The law abiding citizen is at a marked disadvantage, therefore, the system is broken. "

    Wonderful logic.... if people are doing wrong things, lets legalize those things so everyone can do what the bad people are doing.

    And exactly how many people in the state of Utah were randomly shot by bad people last year? This "leveling of the playing field".... was needed because of what need? Is there a chronic murder problem where people are being attacked with gun wielding bandits on the way to coctco?

    Maybe there is.... I never particularly feel threatened ....

  • Faded Glory Taylorsville, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:26 p.m.

    Thank you Governor!!!! It was absolutely the right thing to do.

  • 1conservative WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    I wish Herbie would have advised us that he would be voting against 2nd amendment issues when he was campaigning for office.

    We seeem to have more than a few RINO's in Utah who are opposed to the 2nd amendment.

    Too bad our RINO Republicans are afraid of taking a stand on the principles they campaigned on!

  • Instereo Eureka, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    He did the right thing. If the legislature overrides his veto, they will have done the wrong thing. I'm glad they put the issue out there to be discussed but his veto should settle it because he represents the will of the people and they don't.

  • Sophie 62 spring city, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:18 p.m.

    Well done, Governor Herbert. Thank you.

  • Doogie South Jordan, Utah
    March 22, 2013 4:16 p.m.

    let the legislature vote and I hope they over ride the veto, this governor is too wishy washy for my tastes. He needs to represent what the majority of Utahans want. Seems to me that the vocal minority is against this bill while the majority that do want it don't speak out because they are conservatives. It is a conservative's nature to let things pass, but things need to change. Liberals base their arguments on emotion while conservatives have facts on their side. Liberals believe everything the mainstream media propaganda machine publishes. In essence they let that propaganda do their thinking for them.

  • Wasatch Al South Jordan, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:14 p.m.

    It's good that we seem to elect level-headed governors. What I don't understand is how a majority of the legislators actually passed this law. They must be afraid of the gun lovers and ignore the vast majority of their constituents who oppose this law.

  • Steve Cottrell Centerville, UT
    March 22, 2013 4:06 p.m.

    It seems like a good move to me. I hope my legislator does not vote to override.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    March 22, 2013 3:59 p.m.

    Pathetic governor. Go join the weak-kneed, whimpy Democrats who will sell their souls for a pot of message.

  • flyrod Salt Lake City, UT
    March 22, 2013 3:53 p.m.

    by the Governors logic then Wyoming Arizona and Alaska must have blood just running in the streets. the only problem with the law was it was not an absolute constitutional carry bill. now lets see if the veto proof majority that passed it can step up and override the gov .

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    March 22, 2013 3:47 p.m.

    my guess is 2/3 of legislature will override the veto

  • Jonathan Eddy Payson, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:58 p.m.

    The criminal element already carries concealed without a permit. The law abiding citizen is at a marked disadvantage, therefore, the system is broken.

    Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, a potentially tyrannical government, because of regulatory infringements and dossiers, know who are the first that can easily become disarmed. If I am I tyrant, I would be happy with the Governor's frame of mind.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. Conspiracies in the USA and especially in Utah do not exist and tyranny would never happen in this era of peace, but what if?

  • andyjaggy American Fork, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:59 p.m.

    I've been very impressed with the levelheadedness of Gov. Herbert lately. If people like Herbert and Chris Christie stay around I might just vote Republican again in the future.

  • DHan Syracuse, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:31 p.m.

    Good for him. We need common sense when it comes to gun control laws.

  • lket Bluffdale, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:21 p.m.

    sometimes are leaders are so far right i want to move away. our govorner gives me hope for utah and common sense.

  • cmbennett1 OGDEN, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:16 p.m.

    Thank you Governor Herbert! You will continue to get my vote in the future.

  • jean22 Bountiful, UT
    March 22, 2013 2:06 p.m.

    Thank you, Governor Herbert!

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    March 22, 2013 1:57 p.m.

    @DN Subscriber
    I've heard Mrs. Lockhart interviewed, on conservative and "liberal" radio shows. I'm not sure she's the insane person you are looking for. She actually seems to use common sense, so she's out. Same with Chafetz, while he's a conservative, I don't think he's a nut either. Mike Lee probably would have, Rob Bishop would never run, he would actually have to have a position on an issue instead of collecting campaign donations from military contractors. IDK about Mia, she might actually fit the bill.

  • Monk Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 22, 2013 1:48 p.m.

    Never thought I would say this. But, good work Gary!!

  • Francis LeGuarde Sandy, UT
    March 22, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    I'm encouraged by the veto, but still nervous about the prospect of an override. Utah faces many grave and serious challenges. Our legislators should stop wasting time with sophomoric "message" bills. Wouldn't the state be better off if we focused this intense energy and enthusiasm on something like education?

  • dave4197 Redding, CA
    March 22, 2013 1:43 p.m.

    Good move, Gov Herbert. The right decision, the right opinion, the right action. We need more responsible gun ownership and carrying, not less. This bill was clearly a cry from the nra's leader, a dismal man with no worthwhile goals. Your veto of this terrible bill is welcome to me.

  • Harry-T Davis, UT
    March 22, 2013 1:34 p.m.

    If this bill does pass, I know I will be packing. I do not have a concealed weapons permit; however, I have been thinking about getting one for the sole purpose of protection. Since this bill would legally allow any Joe Schmo to carry a gun, you better believe I would too.

    If this bill does pass, the requirement to notify law enforcement whither or not a driver is carrying a concealed weapon better remain.

  • digitalcamotim Council Bluffs, IA
    March 22, 2013 1:21 p.m.

    Too bad the people of Utah do not have the iniative to bring this to the ballot.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    March 22, 2013 1:13 p.m.

    I don't agree with much of what he does, but this was a great thing. Probably his best moment so far as Gov.

  • Ace Farmington, UT
    March 22, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    Bravo! Sensible government prevails over reactionary message bills.

  • tigger AMERICAN FORK, UT
    March 22, 2013 12:44 p.m.

    Yay. Hope other Republican officials recognize that the majority of the Republicans are not as Right-Wing as some vocal members are.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    March 22, 2013 12:31 p.m.


  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 22, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    Sounds like we need to elect a governor who will actually support gun rights, like they promised in their campaign.

    Gov. Herbert is a good guy, and has been pretty good, but he is wrong on this one and perhaps has become a pandering politician afraid to stand on principle and more flexible to appeal to "moderates" who stand for nothing.

    Our system IS broken. We infringe on the inherent right of self defense by mandating a permit, something not required every in Vermont, or in Alaska for the last 10 years, or Arizona for the last 3 years or Wyoming for 2 years. Although the usual opponents scream about shootouts over parking spots and similar hysteria, actual experience in those states prove that such fears are unfounded.

    I bet that a Governor Rob Bishop, or Jason Chaffetz, or Mike Lee, or Mia Love would have signed this bill, or even a Gov. Becky Lockhart! Let the campaign begin to replace Gov. Herbert.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    March 22, 2013 12:18 p.m.

    Herbert will never get my vote again.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    March 22, 2013 12:14 p.m.

    EXCELLENT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Now let's tighten up on requirements for training for the CCP so that criminals will not only have to wonder if the person they're planning to mess with has gun, but does he or she actually know how to use it?

  • jdub1942 PROVO, UT
    March 22, 2013 11:59 a.m.

    He's got a point with the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" however I wish this bill would pass. I think it would be a deterrent to crime, because more than ever criminals would have to wonder "if I mess with this person, does he/she have a gun?"

  • The Skeptical Chymist SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 22, 2013 11:54 a.m.

    Bravo, Governor Herbert!