From what I've read, not only does it take years, and money, and lots of
both, to become a citizen--but there's also the citizenship test that most
people born here couldn't pass without studying (I knew a CNA taking the
test--studied every free minute), and meanwhile, to do all this, the potential
citizen needs a job somewhere unless, of course, she is one of the blessed few
with connections. What's with that? Didn't take all that for our
foremothers and forefathers in the late 1800s, did it? My reading tells me
it's gotten worse. What, now there's a limit on ordinary people, we
allow only privileged individuals to be citizens, everyone else is limited to
resident noncitizens? Somebody change the poem on the Statue of Liberty...too
bad. I always felt so positive about the one that is there now.
The US gave out on average 250,000 green cards before 1976. Since then we have
given out over a million a year. Plus 3.3 million work visas last year. It
can't be that difficult. If a person wants to be a citizen, they do so
legally, even if they have to wait. (if Anything worth having is worth waiting
for) If they just want work, then there are plenty of work visas available. They
may not be dangerous, but they have been dishonest every day they are here,
committing multiple felonies. When do Americans get to pick a law to
ignore?The Senate has a law before it that would eliminate people
bringing extended family, and changed to only allow immediate family. This
would speed up the wait and the process.
Speaking as a Republican, I've been very frustrated by my party's
stance on immigration, which forced Mitt Romney to campaign contrary to his own
moderate views and lost him key voting blocs. People are choosing to cross the
razor-wire fences because that's actually EASIER to cross than the wall
we've created out of bureaucracy, delay and paperwork. Why have we done
this? Why don't we remember the positive ways in which the immigration of
the 19th Century impacted and transformed our nation? How can we take ourselves
seriously when we revere our immigrant ancestors and look with patriotic
admiration on the Statue of Liberty while simultaneously trying with all our
might to keep others out? Most of the people who come here illegally
aren't dangerous, and the barriers we put in their way are making it more
difficult to distinguish between them and those who actually do pose a threat.
Let's have the brains to look beyond the question of whether something is
illegal and try to think seriously about what OUGHT TO BE illegal.
Most of the people here illagelly do not pay taxes. But they do take advantage
of our services free of charge. Most citizens of the United States can't
get what the illeegals get for free.
I will start by saying that I am conservative. I believe that conservative
principles are what will help this nation move forward. But one problem I see in
some conservatives--not all--is blind intolerance. Just as Pres. Uchtdorf said,
the Church (and me, for that matter) do not condone individuals coming
illegally. However, the system that is currently in place is defined by hatred
and exclusion. Support of legal immigration should be bedrock conservative
policy. I hope that we can all be open-minded enough to allow for progress on
this issue. There are many who are willing to work, follow laws, and build a
better life for their families that would benefit from a chance to come here
legally. It's about time we allowed them to do so by reforming immigration
policy in a compassionate manner.
Sort of like casting pearls before swine.
To those citing that we should let the illegals in because Utah was Mexican
territory when the pioneers came, can you please inform me of what laws were
disregarded and broken my the pioneers.Also, about how many citizens of
the this Mexican territory lost jobs because of this new settlement and how much
did the existing citizenry have to pay in medical cost and welfare costs for the
early pioneers?Also, how did this land become a part of Mexico when
it was settled first by the Indians?
These guys have no more business in the nations' political affairs than a
voodoo priestess or druid. Keep the line of separation strong.
re:FlashbackDo I think Obama listened? HA! What do you think? Does
he EVER actually listen or is it all just a photo op? The man is cemented in his
ideology and that is burned into his DNA...nothing can or will change that.
Barack has an agenda for illegal immigration and it is based on getting as many
illegals to vote in the next election for the democratic party as possible and
the ends justify the means. Hard core left wing politics and nothing more.
Do you think Obama listened? Most likely he listened but didn't hear.
You send them back by taking away their reason for being here, jobs. Workplace
enforcement, E-verify with business penalties, welfare. We need a border we
defend into the cities. Once people get past the border, they should not be
given a free ride. It's not that difficult, when we have honest
leaders. Our laws are good, our leaders are bad.
It is easy to say we should send illegal immigrants back to their place of
birth, but think about that for a moment. How do you really do that? Do you
draft young people into the military to round up the tens of millions of people
this would impact. Sometimes it's easy to say something when you are the
one who has to implement your recommendations. My personal feeling is that you
reduce some of the incentives that encourage illegal immigration. I also feel
we need to build Mexico's economy and infrastructure so people will not
want to leave their families to seek a better life in America. However,we will
never find a solution when we are angry and seek retribution on people who
don't deserve such treatment. I agree that compassion comes first and that
people working together in such an environment will eventually find a solution.
My father immigrated to the U.S. legally. He was sponsored by kind strangers
that agreed to support him financially if he failed to support himself during
his first five years of residency. I will be forever grateful for their
Christ-like help.But much has changed since Dad's day. Our
current immigration system is a morass of contradictory policies that are unjust
and often unenforceable. In essence, our current immigration laws are immoral.
Insisting on holding people accountable for failing to obey such bizarre laws is
neither rational nor compassionate.Groups from various persuasions
have an interest in maintaining the status quo. This stands in the way of
developing moral and rational immigration laws. We need laws that are just. Then
we need to enforce those laws. But it that order.In the meantime we
need to deal with those that are here illegally in a healthy manner.
re:SameJerseythe Church is also sensitive toward the government of
Mexico and the pressure that they apply to the US toward the granting of amnesty
to illegals. Recall the speech the president of Mexico gave a few years ago here
in the US. I could see the government of Mexico putting pressure of the LDS
church to go soft of illegal immigration or suffer the consequences regarding
missionary work and temple building in Mexico.
A careful reading of the immigration commission reports over the years (1981,
1994, 1997 and the 9/11 commission) reveal a sickening similarity. What they
recommended were:Better border enforcementBetter visa controlDeportation of those who are here without valid documentsSecure work
document verificationWe apparently lack the political will to
enforce the law. In fact, there is a fair amount of political pandering by our
elected officials who wish to curry favor with one group or another.It is not hard to conceive that the global mission of the church is at cross
purposes with the best interests of our nation. I speak of security, the
conservation of jobs, schools and social services for our own citizens and an
immigration policy that encourages skilled workers rather than relatives of
third world immigrants.To that end, I believe it is inappropriate
for church authorities to support amnesty. What suits the needs of undocumented
members conflicts with our national needs to enforce the law and deter future
Uchtdorf is a man of true character. He doesn't care what is popular, he
cares what is right.
radically_independentHere is the breakdown from Homeland securities
site. Family-sponsored preferences 234,931Immediate relatives of
U.S. citizens 453,158139,339.. Employment-based preferences25,251..
Priority workers68,831 ,,Professionals with advanced degrees or
aliens of exceptional ability37,216 ..Skilled workers, professionals, and
unskilled workers6701 ..Certain special immigrants3340..
Employment creation (investors)50,103 ..Diversity113,045
..Refugees55,4155 ..Asylees1147 ..??Parolees633 ..Children
born abroad to alien residents158 ..Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central
American Relief Act (NACARA)7,430 ..Cancellation of removal154..Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act 6,527 ..Othertotal
2011 green cards 1,062,040
heres117Most of our green cards go to families. For instance, of the
141,000 given to Mexico, 9,000 went towards work green cards that filled a need,
less than 100 went to the diversity green cards, and their site shows 6,000 as
other. Almost 90% went to family unification. We use to allow sponsorship to
only immediate family, but the laws were changed to extended families.
That's why we have long lines in 4 countries. It's not our fault that
everyone wants out, and wants to bring much of their countrymen with them. There are only so many seats in the movie house, and we can only sell
enough tickets to fill them. When people sneak into the show house, it denies
the honest their place.
The bottom line...If you sneak into Disneyland ...and are
caught...should we just say "oh well as long as you are here you might as
well just go ahead and ride all the rides as those that paid $175 to get
in...after all we need to be compassionate" ??NO!!! I think most of us would kindly report the fence jumper and then expect to see
him escorted - kindly - out the front gate with the expectation he would next
time 'earn' the money to come to Disneyland and pay at the front
ticket office just like all other non-fence jumpers in the park. I would say
that is a 'compassionate response'.
Re: UtahBlueDevil"The Mormon pioneers settled in Mexican land,
without permission. [This] 'became' legal through negotiations with
the federal government once the land was acquired at the end of the
Mexican-American war."Did the pioneers break Mexican law by
settling where they did? True, they might have settled without permission but
that doesn't mean they broke laws in the process. The Mormon pioneers
settled what became Utah during the Mexican-American War as you stated. However,
at the point that they settled, the war was winding down with the U.S. in
negotiations to obtain California and other land that included the future Utah.
So at worst the Mormon pioneers settled disputed territory that the U.S. was
actively taking from Mexico. Is it against the law to colonize disputed
territory? Did Mexico have laws that explicitly stated that U.S. colonists (the
Mormon Pioneers) could not settle that particular part of Mexican territory?
Mexico had an 1830 law that limited immigration into the Texas territory but
it's not clear if there were Mexican laws in force in 1847 that applied to
what became Utah.
I may gain some of you as enemies here, but I really hope not to: I admit that
I'm undocumented, illegal, lawbreaker- call it what you please. I
definitely agree and understand the concerns of those opposed to a comprehensive
immigration reform, but most of the people I have talked to are not well
informed. The immigration system is broken. Yes, thousands of legal immigrants
are given the opportunity to come here every year, and no, I know it's not
the obligation of the U.S. to open its doors to anyone wanting to come here.
People from my country, and other countries like the Philippines and China, have
an estimated wait time of 15-20+ years to immigrate legally; That's if you
are a skilled worker. Maybe this is one of the reasons why the option of simply
crossing illegally seems more do-able. The process of legally immigrating here
should be fixed and I guarantee that the number of people crossing will drop
dramatically- this is should be part of enhancing/updating the immigration
system. Every fellow undocumented person has their story, and it all comes
down to family. Why do we suffer and sacrifice all? Family.
Looking through rose colored glasses. Yes it seems so simple and compassionate
to just grant amnesty to all 11 million illegals and suddenly they instantly
turn into hard working productive tax paying citizens. Tell this to the poor
CITIZENS in Arizona who are trying so hard to keep their state afloat and from
being overrun by illegals who are robbing their budgets and clogging their
welfare roles and emergency rooms and class rooms...all at tax payers expense.
Oh and I forgot to mention all the violent crime that illegals bring with them.
Of course democrat's LOVE all the new VOTERS and guaranteed power for years
to come which is the main point anyway."We believe in honoring
,obeying and sustaining the law". What law? The laws of citizenship! Do
illegals believe or care about the laws of citizenship in the US? Ask the 11
million who sneaked across illegally in the dark. So if you sneak across the
border you are ... let's see... a criminal aren't you and you
AREN'T honoring or obeying the laws of the land are you. Here's a thought - go back home and come back legally!
Very impressive - makes a change from the right-wing spiel that you sometimes
read...yes, stick to the law...maybe the law, in this case, could work out a
Having a wife who is currently going through the process of getting a green card
I can say that I do not blame immigrants one bit for coming here illegally. The
process takes far too long, and far to much money for almost anyone to be able
to afford it. Unless the prospective immigrant is extremely well off, or has an
American person or family willing to sponsor them there is no way they could
afford to come here legally. Illegal immigrants pay nearly $50 billion in taxes
every year. It's worthless, ineffective border patrol that costs our
country money. In order to solve this problem, and in order to maximize the
benefit that immigrants provide to our country, the government must make it
easier for willing and worthy immigrants to come to America legally.
SLars.... UBD's son here - just for full disclosure.. i saw he was out of
post so I am replying for him."The Immigration Act of 1990
established the Diversity Visa (DV) program, where 55,000 immigrant visas would
be available in an annual lottery, starting in fiscal year 1995. The lottery
aims to diversify the immigrant population in the United States, by selecting
applicants mostly from countries with low rates of immigration to the United
States in the previous five years.Those born in any territory that
has sent more than 50,000 immigrants to the United States in the previous five
years are not eligible to receive a diversity visa. For DV-2014, natives of the
following nations were ineligible: Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, China
(mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Haiti,
India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, South Korea, United Kingdom
(except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam. The
entry period to apply for the DV-2014 is from October 2, 2012 to November 3,
2012."So no where near "millions" each year have been
admitted using the Diversity Visa program.
Immigration reform is needed, beginning with the debacle of legal immigration in
this country. My daughter-in-law is Japanese - had her green card when she and
children went to see her dying mother in Japan for summer, then my son lost his
job but had a ticket to help them return since travel to the USA is difficult
with children and the immigration folks at the airport terrify her (treating
every foreigner coming through like terrorist). My son got work teaching
English so they rented out their Utah home and stayed, still seeking work here.
Then the tsunami so they helped her now-widowed father with his crippled
business. The resulting financial strain prevented their return. Now he has a
job waiting for him in Utah and they won't reinstate her green card which
expired (more than 6 months out of USA). He has to leave her there but support
her while supporting and caring for children without their mom. Tax-paying
property owners, she entered the US legally. They'd have been better off
to abandon her family and return to the US living on welfare. Responsibility
and honor is respected there, but not here. The American way.
anti-liar:If President Uchtdorf was posting his personal opinion on
a blog, that'd be one thing, but he was sent to speak with President Obama
as an official representative of the Church and this is his response after
meeting with him in that capacity. Nice try, though.
I liked the approach President Utchdorf took. It was well balanced(compassion,
legality, common sense etc.) It's frustrating because a lot of the people
here try to argue as though we can't possibly come up with a solution that
is all of those without destroying one of those. Generally the argument is
Compassion v. Legality. Why can't we have both? As I see it we will
probably have to forgive some situations and get some cold hard justice
(it's really unfortunate that we see justice this way, after all people are
only getting what they sowed) for some situations. Both of those points of view
need to exist. As for which side I lean to...it is the government's job to
protect its citizens. I like compassion but I much rather ere on the side of
justice. People assume risks when they cross boarders illegally. It
shouldn't be our moral or legal responsibility to remove the risks or the
effects of the risks they took on. It doesn't take long for people to
realize they can use your compassion to their advantage and to your detriment,
but compassion still has it's place.
"At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a
Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly
understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single
occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant
to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught
that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such."(Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,
April, 2012, General Conference)
I haven't read all the posts, so this point may be old news, but President
Uchtdorf makes an error in his assertion that the illegals from 30 years ago are
somehow different from todays. In 1986 Congress and Reagan passed an amnesty
plan for those already in the country illegally. No need if they weren't
illegal then. What should happen is not kicking them out and seprating
families. Let them get in the "Back of the Line" with people from every
part of the world who want to come here and are waiting. They can live here
until they get citizenship in the few years it will take. Simple solution. You
might say, then why would they want citizenship at all with that deal? Well if
they want to live here as foreign nationals fine, they just can't vote.
Thats about the only thing citizenship gives anyway. Voting rights.
UtahBlueDevil--He gave you his source in a previous post. You're
forgetting several categories, like the diversity lottery. Its been well over a
million per year average this past decade. NeilT-- Your right, it
is about economics, and using cheap illegal labor to depress our wages. In that
respect, the Church can't claim to be impartial. As a holder of several
executive seats on the Salt Lake Chamber they are implicated by association. The
Chamber has been pushing for surplus labor for years. It seems to me
that compassion for those here illegally is rampant, but for the 23 million
looking for full time work, the taxpayer that subsidizes those here illegally,
those with their id stolen, those with depressed wages, etc, compassion is a
dirty word. That's the point that irritates. We are suppose to have
compassion for the criminal, while the victim is ignored.
People from South America work hard and will often do work which most of us
would not prefer. Some are here illegally to pursue illegal activities. People
who will work and need work should be given the opportunity. Those who sell
illegal drugs should be punished and deported.We need to correct any
of our laws which encourage illegal immigration. We need to open the boarder
where US citizens can travel to Mexico safely with Fair Mexican Law. The Laws
should be two way.
Illegal immigration is more abour economics than rule of law. We have a country
where poverty, crime, and government corruption are the norm bordering a
prosperous and wealthy country. and then we wonder why people sneak across the
border. The far right views illegal immigrants as undesireable, criminals, and
a burden on society. Everytime the D-News tries to put a human face on someone
here illegaly the far right crows foul. How dare we have compassion on someone
who broke our immigration. laws. The real reason many don't want a path to
citizenship is citizens can vote and conservatives are terrified they will vote
Democrat. Most hispanics have a strong work ethic and sense of family. That
goes agaisnt long held stereotypes of mexicans being lazy and criminals.
For those who are really concerned about "the law" and want to solve
this problem, go after the employers who are breaking the law by hiring them.
If there are no jobs, most of these people would not be here. Lets quit
focusing on one illegal action and ignoring the illegal action that is the
reason for the problem. The people coming here illegally are simply
trying to make a better life for their family. The people hiring them are
trying to make a buck at another human beings expense. Which is the greater
@prelax - Ummmm, not sure where you get your facts, but your statement is
completely wrong. Here are the facts.Family-based immigration
(green cards) is limited by statute to 480,000 persons per year. Family-based
immigration is governed by a formula that imposes a cap on every family-based
immigration category, with the exception of "immediate relatives"
(spouses, minor unmarried children, and parents of U.S. citizens). Employment-based immigration is limited by statute to 140,000 persons per
year. In most cases, before the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)
will issue an employment-based immigrant visa to a foreign-born individual, the
employer first must obtain a "labor certification" from the U.S.
Department of Labor confirming that there are an insufficient number of U.S.
workers able, qualified and willing to perform the work for which the
foreign-born individual is being hired.So no - millions are not
handed out. And no - farm owners are not getting green cards for their farm
labors. And the farm labor issue predates the 70's. This is not a new
problem - hardly.
@Dektol"Why is the President meeting with a German?"Well a German might know a bit more about the immigration process. He might
just be the person the LDS church selected as their representative to this
meeting in which case you'd have to take it up with them.
I sure wish Jesus would just come and save us all from our silliness, harshness,
unrighteous judgement and just plain stupidity. Frankly, we are all border
crossers. We cross the borders of decorum and class pretty much on a daily
basis. Utah County is turning into Unhappy Valley.
I invited discussion on the choices for the list of these fourteen entities
asked to discuss immigration issues with Mr Obama. No one seems to be
suspicious that a majority of views are perhaps being sought to justify the
Obama administration in doing what they plan to do already: to legitimize the
illegitimate, to reward illegality and fail to proceed against it, to
effectually grant amnesty.A discussion is welcome of course although
I have heard little about its content apart from the position of the LDS Church
on which the article gave a little information. Surely the views of all
participants on such an "advisory group" were known beforehand or easily
discoverable by those engineering the "debate". All that is needed is a
majority of opinions favorable to administration policy and one or two more
conservative entities to provide an appearance of genuine diversity and
fairness.The overwhelming majority of the nation appears to be
consistently against illegal immigration. Are the administration asking
illegal immigrants for their opinion - or those who represent them? That is how
our local television media proceeds btw.Any information on the other
selected presidential advisers Deseret News?
UtahBlueDevilUp until the mid 70's, we averaged 250,000 a year.
Now we give out over a million green cards a year. We have made it easier for
Whether the Utah Compact is a great document or not, the idea that it was used
to create the 4 immigration laws acted in Utah in 2011 is laughable. Look at the
first principle. They totally violate it.
WRZ... your comment lends itself to not knowing anything at all of the
political dynamics going on between Mexico and the US at that time. There was
no welcome mat set out for new settlers in Mexican territories, particularly
after the annexation of Texas from Mexico in 1845.Don't confuse
Mexico's inability to do anything about it, with they didn't care.
That was hardly the case. I have no idea where you came up with your
information. We celebrate the days of 47 - not 48. Utah didn't become
part of the undisputed until after the treaty of Guadalupe signed February 2nd
1848 - and wan't confirmed until July 4th, 1848. The fighting was done in
47, but the treaty was not signed, and the lands were not turned over to the
states legally when the US bought them for 3 million to settle debts by the
Mexican government.Uath was part of Mexico in 1847, and through half
of 1848. I am not sure what version of history you have that states
otherwise... but to claim Mexico didn't care.... good grief... there are a
whole lot of dead people who would say otherwise.
@John WIlson:You wrote:"I don't know if they had permission
per se, but they did settle with the full knowledge of the Mexican
Government."Illegals move to the U.S. with the full knowledge of
the U.S. government.Pharisees loved to follow the letter of the law.
Christ taught us to follow the spirit of the law. Before President David
O. Mc Kay all presidents of the church were teaching that new converts moved to
Zion (Utah)Everything is an evolution process until we get it
right.You may not like it, but we have 11 million people who are
undocumented. Are you going to deport them? Sorry, is not going to happen. A
liitle pragmatism please, and legalize them and take them out of the shadows and
make them participants members of society. Isn't that better?
Having lived in 3 Central American countries and 1 South American country, and
children who have lived in 3 different countries in Latin America, plus living
in Germany and the Philippines, there are more reasons people come to the United
States of America. They come because a lot of their countries don't enjoy
the freedoms that we do. We have marketed movies, commercials, products,
lifestyle and a myriad of items to these people over decades in all forms of
media format. They see the difference of good neighborhood, safety and security
in the homes, workplaces, and in public places. They see that even though we
may have corrupt leaders, with some getting caught and others not, in their
countries people get away with corruption and some die in the process. Having
seen people being pulled out of their living places and thrown into prison for
no apparent reason nor having public defenders on their side, those people
suffer. We have so much to be happy about, even in the worst of
situations. We have entitled people to have more than if they worked. The
people that come here, want to work and do many jobs for us, everywhere.
The Church isn't unified on this or many matters. Nor should it force
people into one view or another. There is an elephant in the room that is
ignored and that is political issues. Real honest debate and not neutrality is
the unifier. Otherwise it is crack and divide the Church. Look at Kirkland or
any other place where division led to distruction. The subject isn't so
much an issue other than any wedge issue has a thin edge of the wedge to divide.
I have my ideas on just how but that isn't the reason. Debate leads to
@Albert Maslar CPA (Retired)"'Give me your tired, your poor,
'your vote.''"Very clever, Albert. That's
what Obama is up to... maintain the Hispanic vote for the mid-term election in
the US House. He needs the House to turn Democrat in order to finish his work
of changing the US into... socialist state.wrz CPA (retired)@UtahBlueDevil"The Mormon pioneers settled in Mexican land,
without permission."There was no Mexican law against
settlement.The Mormons settled in what is now Utah at the end of the
Mexican-American War. Remember, the Mormon Battalion? Mormon men were selected
to form the battalion whilst on the trek to Utah. They left their families and
headed to Texas to join the war. When they got there the war was over... so
they headed north to Utah Territory."Citizenship should not be
free, nor easy, but a realistic path needs to be provided for... just like for
our ancestors."There currently is a realistic path... It's
called fill out the appropriate papers and get in line... And in the mean time,
ContinuedSince this is a sensitive topic, civilly and politically,
we should continue as citizens be more positive at the human side of this topic.
Enforcing the current law is important but making sure the law takes in
consideration that each case of legal entry is gentler and fair as we show
compassion for people that have given viable work ethics while providing for
their family. Enforcement should be a common sense approach. That is not as
easy as distinct line in the sand but our bureaucracy should have a heart.
CONTINUEDHopefully, the immigrantion bill doesn’t mean that it
will be with the same tactics of the Obamacare bill process. The
leaders expressed their concerns over the impact the enforcement or lack of
enforcement of the immigration system is having on families throughout their
congregations.Since we have a federal government this issue is one
that will have to be resolved by the federal government. Citizens of the United
States of America and their individual states still don’t feel secure on
their borders. Countries for centuries had a policies and laws that
discourage entering their borders without legal documentation which is a civil
approach consistent with international law. The United States of America has
offered compassion for families but also according to precedence its commitment
to established laws.Individuals within Utah along with elected
officials, nationally, locally, and the state can be directly involved with any
legislation processes. This helps ensure the values citizens stand for are
presented in an orderly process nationally and hopefully that eventual
legislation will reflect those values.
This has definitely been a political issues since 1986 but those elected to
represent us have not wanted to do anything as the adverse effect of what
President Bush one did. No President nor person in Congress has wanted to touch
this issue due to the feelings expressed in this article. The Church cannot be
involved directly in the political scene so it will not state anything that
would jeopardize their relationship as a neutral entity.As President
Obama is a political person from the beginning, he will do and say those things
that are political and that will win him points. President Obama seemed
interested in what these religious figures had to say as immigration is a
political issue. In this format, if a religious entity spoke of anything but
neutrality, they would be subjected to adversary actions such as losing their
tax and business status. As usual this President’s White
House released a statement on the meeting, indicating that he reiterated his
strong commitment to working with Congress in a bipartisan manner so that they
can swiftly pass and send a common-sense immigration reform bill to his desk.
Yes, it is lawful to increase visa quotas and make the process easier. It is
also desirable.Those who oppose these reforms either think there is
something inferior about "outsiders" or believe newcomers are a burden.
They are not a burden. They improve the economy and bless our nation with
further growth. We were foolish not to have welcomed more of them in the
past.There is one legitimate reason why all conservatives, true
believers in free trade, competition, and the laws of supply and demand, should
be shaking in their boots at the prospect of more guest workers. Those guest
workers will work circles around us for less pay. They've already proven
that. At least the unskilled laborers with low education ought to be nervous.
They are one class of workers whose wages are slightly depressed with each new
wave of immigrants. All other categories of wages go up.
wrz:Immigrant labor picks the food you eat, cleans the facilities
you use, and builds the homes you'll live in. Immigrant labor puts money
into the Social Security and Medicare you'll be taking advantage of someday
(if you haven't already.) Unless you're willing to stop making use of
the fruits of their work, you come across as a bit of a hypocrite.And laws are changed and adapted all the time. Otherwise, women still
wouldn't be able to vote and slavery would still be legal. This is what
presidents and members of Congress are elected to to, and whining about
"faulty leadership" doesn't change that. Just because reality
doesn't function your bubble says it should doesn't mean the rest of
us should bury our heads in the sand just to make you feel better. Our current
immigration laws are clearly inadequate, so it's time to change them.
It's that simple.
@azresident:"Those who enter this country illegally are lawbreakers.
The question is--which lawbreakers get the 'get out of jail free'
card?"They all will. That's what 'comprehensive
immigration reform' is all about."Which laws will be
enforced?"None of the existing ones. They'll all
disappear.@JayTee"... with our massive unemployment, how
will all the people just walking in here find employment for their
families?"They'll take existing jobs. And how will they do
that, you ask? They'll work for less pay. And our American workers will go
home to their couches and TV clicker and collect unemployment benefits."With our deep record national bankruptcy, who will provide all the
'social services' for those who walk across our borders or come with a
visa and then just stay?"The government, who else? And where
will the government get the money, you ask? Print it, of course."Can we realistically accommodate the wants and needs of all those in the
entire world who want to simply move here and be citizens?"Don't worry... they'll stop coming when we become a broken, 3rd
world nation. We're almost there now, so sit tight.
@KJB1:"'He [President Obama] just said in this value process we
need to stand together and make sure the United States is still a place where
people can come, and once they come, feel not at fear. And do it, of course, in
a lawful way.' Okay, right-wingers from the DN boards. Your move."The key phrase... do it 'in a lawful way.'The
issue about those who are here and didn't do it 'in a lawful way'
is the unanswered question. No one seems to want to tackle that one. Which is
the mark of faulty leadership."The whole point of the President
and Congress working together on immigration reform is that the end result will
be 'lawful.'"Of course it will be 'lawful.'
Change the law and voila! it's lawful.But, wait! What will the
consequence of that action be? Hordes and more hordes of illegals pouring in.
That's what! We found that out when Reagan gave amnesty to millions in
'86. At that point Reagan only had 1.5 million to deal with... We now have
an estimated 11 to 20 million seeking amnesty.
Do you people praising the open borders rhetoric understand the ultimate outcome
of letting into this country anyone who wants to? This isn't about
compassion. And the people claiming it know so.There are three
groups who are most vocal in granting amnesty: the Democratic Party, businesses
that employ illegals, and churches competing for prospects. All three have
common goals relating to money and power. The least of their concerns is this
nation or the welfare of its legal citizens. This is selfishness at
its worst, masked by phony virtues. And your buying into it can mean that either
you're one of the interested parties or are easily swayed, a victim of the
non-stop propaganda.And shame on any church leader for telling his
followers to obey the law, then encourage the turning of blind eyes on those
breaking the law because you want to convert them.
As far as keeping families topgether is concerned, the illegals themselves have
already shown that they thought the extra money they could make by leaving their
families behind was more important!
Last year the US gave out 3.2 million work visas, and over a million green cards
(source: DHS 2011 yearbook). Coming here legally is not as hard as the
pro-illegal movement want you to think. Those here with immediate
family (over a million) have been granted a waiver by Obama. So that argument no
longer applies to the 10 million.
RRB @ salt lake city wrote: "work visas by returning home, going to
the back of the line, and coming back legally. This would help to deter future
law breakers" Favorite line used by right wingers which is just
incorrect at best and fantasy at worst. Returning home means maybe a ten year
wait for just an answer to know if you qualify for a work visa, and if the
person has more than two speeding tickets they will be refused. Plus only 50k
odd work visas are available per year, and they are handed out in that lottery
which takes another two odd years to process IF your number comes up for one of
the 50k vacancies. Because of all that an illegal is better of risking
deportation but staying where they are today because going to the back of the
line will ruin and break up families. If caught they simply return illegally a
few months later crossing the boarder. The fact that they have to wait so long
and then go into a lottery actually deters people from coming here legally.
We as a people have long believed the punishment should fit the crime. If I were
to sneak into a movie theater without a ticket, would I be banned for 10 years?
If I were to get on TRAX without a ticket, would I be told, "That's it.
You won't be riding on this train for the next five years"? Further,
that comparison does not take into account how hard it is for them to get their
"tickets" before they came without them. Would we tell someone wanting a
ticket to the movie to file for it a few years in advance? Would we tell them
that since they are not on the list of already approved ticket holders, they
must pay a one-time fee of $95? Would we tell them that if they wanted a ticket,
they probably ought to see a lawyer first, so he could tell them how to get one?
We are not reasonable in what we expect of these immigrants. -- John Jackson
"As I made a preliminary inspection of the list presented at the end of the
article, I thought that the specific selection of 'counselors' for Mr
Obama in this matter may be an issue for discussion."Why?
Because it represents a broad spectrum faiths? Does it really make a
difference if you are catholic, baptist, non-denominational, or, holding breath,
even Muslim. What it is that we are really seeing here that raises this to the
level of needing further discussion?
@ KJB1,I'll agree with you that what Pres. Obama said
concerning immigration sounds good. However, with Obama, saying and doing are
two very different things.
compassion, family cohesion, respect for law and common sense......Yeah, right.
How is it compassionate to legalize millions of new low wage workers when our
own college grads are doing survival jobs? How is sending the entire family home
together hurting family cohesion? They can all go home, where they are citizens,
know the language and see the rest of their extended family. It's a win
win. Respect for the law? Really? How about obeying and enforcing the laws we
actually have. That would show common sense respect for the law.
When will we hear from our Church leaders this? There is nothing unchristian
about getting rid of illegals!!!
This is a very hot topic, with many very strongly held views. That being said,
I think it is cool that President Uchtdorf was invited to the discussion.
@UtahBlueDevil - "The Mormon pioneers settled in Mexican land, without
permission."It is my understanding from the study of the history
of that period, that the LDS Church leaders were in discussion with the
Government of Mexico concerning their settling in that part of what was then
Mexico. I don't know if they had permission per se, but they did settle
with the full knowledge of the Mexican Government.
Why is the President meeting with a German?
Thank you President Uchtdorf. We need men of wisdom and high ethics to
facilitate solutions to the complicated problems of immigration. It’s not
an easy issue, but having my Church emphasize a Christian approach with
compassion and reason is the best way forward. I urge all thinking Utahns to
support viable solutions to this challenge. The simple-minded and/or hateful
racism expressed by so many Utahns is truly a shame. Now with our immigrant
member of the First Presidency taking wise steps in solidarity with our
nation’s President, Barack Obama, makes a forward movement more possible
nationally. May the suffering of the oppressed diminish and the strengthening of
Wonder what stake President De Visser would say on this subject? I support
President Uchtdorf's stance on this...what a kind and compassionate man.
He is the perfect ambassador for the church! I think this is something all
reasonable people can support. God bless the leadership of the church and all
leaders in Washington to come up with a compassionate way to resolve this issue.
Perfect way to help those who are in the shadows of life. They are our fellow
brothers and sisters and should be viewed as such first and foremost!
Mormonism changes as much as the seasons.
I was comforted to hear, for the first time in my case, that that the LDS
Church's policy is always to discourage anyone from entering any country
without legal documentation. I was glad to be reassured that I was not of an
opposing view to that of my Church.I have to agree that a uniform
law of naturalization should be applied by the federal government, and that
would include I suppose the appropriate enforcement of said laws.As
I made a preliminary inspection of the list presented at the end of the article,
I thought that the specific selection of 'counselors' for Mr Obama in
this matter may be an issue for discussion.
Why is it that as a conservative that this must be placed as liberal versus
conservative. I for one agree with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints position. This is a human trajedy. To separate families for any reason
isn't always necessary. I spent twenty years in the military and had
numerous assignments where I couldn't take my family. The difference was
that I knew my family was taken care of while I was gone. How, by my faith and
those who were assigned to look after my family. I do understand that not
everyone has this and even those who are assigned don't always do it.
However, it worked in my case and still to this day.Families are the
heart and sole of society. If we continue to destroy the family architecture
then we will be the ones to pay. Look again at the LDS Church's stand and
really take a hard look. This isn't a conservative or liberal issue. This
is a society issue.
RRB,I am with you all the way we need to quit rewarding dishonest
actions or the problem will never stop. I say put all those people who are
hiring these folks that are here illegally in jail and make them pay a hefty
fine, otherwise this problem will never end. They should not be rewarded for
breaking the law just so they can make an extra buck.
How can LEGAL U.S. citizens NOT be skeptical of anything Obama says relative to
immigration enforcement?He's done a pretty poor job enforcing
immigration now. Border patrol agents have actually had to file a lawsuit to
compel this administration to allow them to do their jobs. His administration
released almost 7000 illegal aliens a week ago claiming "budget
problems".How can he (Obama)claim to want to help 20 million
LEGAL Americans find work, while at the same time, put 11 million illegal aliens
The law treats breaking different laws on a spectrum....kill someone and we may
kill you....speed in your car and we'll give you a ticket. Different
crimes deserve different punishments. I've often wondered why
those on the far right think illegal immigration is a crime significantly closer
to murder rather than being closer to a speeding ticket. Ask
yourself, where on the spectrum should illegal immigration fit? Is it really
so bad?? Wouldn't you do the same thing put in their shoes? And if
you're Mormon you should ask yourself this - if The Church won't
baptize people who break the law, why then do they allow illegals to get
baptized? Could it be that Church leaders don't find illegal immigration
to be a bid deal? And could it be that they are right?
Illegal imigration is not about just Mexican imigrants, but it is the largest
part of the issue. A thought;What if,while this may go agaist the average
persons idea of possibility,I think it would be interesting to see. Just suppose
America worked with Mexico, not to take over but to assist with a 60 mile depth
border Inside Mexico. With in this border area would be cities designated for
those who will be required to reurn to Mexico and the back of the line per say
of Immigration. That border area would become like a breaze way that,then could
have a US/Meican legal system that protects them while they wait and perhaps
might come to like it there,becoming a prosperous region of sorts. Why would
Mexicon allow this??? Because we would refuse to trade with them unless they are
on board. This buffer would help to protect Americans at the US border. Our
Military then could be close to home In that Area and Address the Drug Cartells
as well. There are other ideas out there. So I would like to see more, rather
than just bashing everyone out there. I am FOR Legal Immigration.
Beneath the smoke and mirrors, religion and churches are business organizations
created for the same purposes as other business operations. And it is their
giant financial power that enables them to have the special privileges accorded
to their imaginary product. Their divergent aspects points to the
falsity of their claims along with the refusal to provide any reasonable proof
or support for their product. Yet they readily join together to foster their
commercial interests. Their stand on immigration seems much more toward cheap
labor than just helping people. “Asked how the LDS Church is
directly affected by U.S. immigration policy, President Uchtdorf said that
isn’t really the point.” “I’m not talking about the
organization of the church,” he said. “I’m talking about
individuals. As a church, we are concerned about individuals. We care about
every member who is impacted in a negative way by this. We need to be of help.
We need to support in a moral way."Yet the individuals referred
to seem to exclude the American workers and their families that are destroyed by
the cheap labor.
Fine, then the Christian thing to do is deport all of the families, parents and
children. Although the Church says it doesn't get involved in politics, yes
it does. How many illegals have been named to positions of leadership in Spanish
branches and how many have been caught and deported? Two? This speaks volumes as
to how the Church has allowed illegals to feel safe in our country by affording
them a sanctuary. The Christian thing to do is remove all freebies and force all
illegals to vacate the premises and return to their countries of origin with
every member of their family. There are more negatives than positives by
allowing 12 million illegals to live among us. Reports are stating that since
the Dream Act the number of infiltrators sneaking over the borders on a daily
basis have increased by 4 times the usual amount. Of course. We allow 12
million, another 12 million will come over. Enough is enough! I do not support
the Church's position. Law is law and it must be enforced.
I am very right wing, but I choose to follow the Prophet. His move.
Following the meeting on Immigration, Our Congreeman Jason Chaffetz is quoted as
saying: "The only way we get to where the church wants to be is when we get
Democrats and Republicans agreeing, And when we do have common ground we should
vote and pass that and move to the next step." This is good policy. However,
Chaffetz and his far right wing ilk want to take down the whole elephant when it
comes to economic reform. Which are we to believe? The "Finding common
ground," "one step at-a-time" Chaffetz? Or the one we see now, with
Senator Mike Lee, leading the obstruction in Washington -- helping to create
fiscal chaos so that they can blame the president (and there is plenty of blame
there -- on both sides)? We don't need large, long-reaching and deep
changes in policy right now. We need large, long-reaching and deep changes in
personnel -- elected personnel. We need to find someone who will indeed work
together to find common ground, and then "...vote and pass that and move on
to the next step." Right now they aren't there.
For those referencing the military family situation in relation to the
deportation issue see the internet post on "The Impact of Deployment on U.S.
Military Families" (DN does not seem to allow a post of a link).Food for thought.We need comprehensive immigration reform that
addresses all of the problems. I agree that border security is a major concern.
Enforcement is another major concern, but so is the fate of those already here
- as President Uchtdorf said some of them for 20-30 years, coming at a time when
we demonstrated a pretty "open door" attitude about things. Do we now
just write off the last 30 years of their lives and their families? Not as far
as I'm concerned. Comprehensive immigration reform needs to adress that
very real issue in a humane and fair way.Back of the line - I can
agree with that --- bust up the families - not so much. It is interesting how
much we tend to assimilate ourselves to Darwinism (survival of the fittest) when
it comes to looking at a solution to these types of issues.
Would they treat us the same in New Zealand if we wanted to become a citizen
there?No.Check out there rules on that.Then comment.
We are sometimes guilty of ascribing the status of revelation to everything the
Brethren say. In fact, most of what the General Authorities say is not
revelation at all. When they go around the world to train they use the
Handbooks and the Scriptures. They are triangulating their words with the
revelations.I accept the fact that President Uchtdorf is making an
administrative statement here. Since there are tens of thousands of baptisms
around the world of people who are unlawfully present, this issue becomes a
problem for the institutional arm of the Church.Administratively they have
taken a position that the undocumented can serve missions. There was no grand
announcement in Conference about it (unlike the mission age change). The
Brethren simply got the word out and they began doing it. It wasn't
revelation. It was done in a corner, not from the pulpit.Elder
Christofferson's remarks in April of 2012 will help us understand who holds
the keys of revelation for the Church and how they are communicated to the
It is my hope that all American entities, including the LDS and other religions,
will do everything they can to discourage people from coming to this country or
staying in this country illegally because of the distinct possibility it will
impact their families, and the longer they are allowed to stay, the more
children they will have, and the more impact will be felt when the rule of law
catches up to them.As long as we operate under laws, entities,
especially churches, should try to discourage families from breaking those laws.
I think everyone needs to take a step backward on the legal issue, and realize
we each break laws. Some minor like traffic laws, some more serious like tax
evasion and taking payments under the table. We also need to realize that most
of our relatives did exactly what these people are doing, they picked up their
families and moved to new areas to give their kids a better chance in life. The Mormon pioneers settled in Mexican land, without permission. The
settlement of these lands "became" legal through negotiations with the
federal government once the land was acquired at the end of the Mexican-American
war. A path to "statehood" was negotiated... where these new citizens
had to change certain things to come under compliance with US law. We still see
those in Utah who still have not or will not obey these laws.So
before we spend too much time up on our bully pulpits casting stones, we need to
remember our paths, separated by 150 years, were and are driven by similar
needs.Citizenship should not be free, nor easy, but a realistic path
needs to be provided for... just like for our ancestors.
What Obama and the liberals want to do is NUTS and illegal.It's
like me breaking into the White House and Obama saying "welcome" and
giving me a free room, free food, free education, and spending money!I'm going to sneak into a movie and, if caught, say I am an
Law vs. compassion and mercy? I'll take the latter. I think the church
leadership gets it on this one. Too bad the conservative crowd doesn't.
When caught in a public venue without a ticket, the penalty is ejection or the
required purchase of the ticket but in the US, illegal entry is rewarded on the
understanding of quid pro quo and a distortion on a bronze plaque hung in the
Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor, "your vote." As
long as that is the ultimate purpose of unfettered amnesty, the problem can only
The term "compassion," as regards the way we view illegal aliens, really
doesn't belong in the discussion at all. This is because compassion really
is not at issue -- there is no actual shortage of compassion towards the illegal
alien to speak of. The real issue, instead, is that some are
hijacking, perverting, and co-opting the principle of compassion in a devious
effort to persuade us to look the other way at chronic illegality, contrary to
our knowledge of right and wrong.
Wonderful to read this story. As President Obama has said, America should be a
place where people can come, and when they come, not feel at fear. Many who
advocate help for the immigrant continue to urge that the help should be
achieved in a legal fashion. Congressional legislation, then, would be
wonderful. It would also be wonderful to see at least some of Utah's
delegation aiding the cause, helping to create a path for citizenship for those
who are already here, a path that is quick and that does not require them to be
separated from their families here for any extended period of time. I do think
it interesting that what we once called "amnesty" is now being dubbed
"a pathway to citizenship." Still, all it amounts to is forgiving
someone for not having paperwork. I have no problem with that. -- John Jackson
I think most of us like the idea of compassion and charity. However, with our
massive unemployment, how will all the people just walking in here find
employment for their families? With our deep record national bankruptcy, who
will provide all the "social services" for those who walk across our
borders or come with a visa and then just stay? Can we realistically
accommodate the wants and needs of all those in the entire world who want to
simply move here and be citizens? What do you tell those well-qualified and
educated foreigners who follow all the rules, wait many years, pay thousands of
dollars in legal fees, and then get preempted by those who simply walk across
the border and stay? If border "security" doesn't become a serious
priority, how long will it be before we simply cease to be a nation? Talk is
great, but the bottom line is, who's going to pay for it all, and how? I
would urge all civic and ecclesiastical leaders to address these questions,
because they're real and they're not going to be wished away
regardless of anyone's good intentions or high hopes.
The only way people are invited to work, is with a work visa, and they expire.
We need to care about everyone, including those citizens out of work, or
had their id's stolen, lost jobs to the depressing of wages by surplus
labor. They are the forgotten people in this debate. If families are separated,
it's by their choice. These churches should of been preaching to
their business owners, and the illegal aliens years ago. Now it looks like a
push for cheap labor for their business owner members. me me me, I
live in a different country from my family, a choice I made. I don't need
counseling. Half of my family lives in another country, we are not broken.
And the law prohibits shoplifting, robbing a convenience store, and squatting in
vacant homes. Yet some who are homeless break these laws to support their
families. In the interest of supporting families and keeping
families together are these laws and these lawbreakers to be ignored? Those who enter this country illegally are lawbreakers. The question is--which
lawbreakers get the "get out of jail free" card? Which laws will be
RRB...being an active duty wife myself I feel I can answer this question. Yes
the answer is yes. We military families have much needed counseling after
deployment, to repair the broken pieces. Our kids pay the hefty price for
freedom. Deployments take a toll on families. Some work it out...Some never
Chris B.The whole point of the President and Congress working
together on immigration reform is that the end result will be "lawful."
It's going to be fun watching you guys tie yourselves into
knots over this one.
Here's to a speedy and fair resolution. This is an important step to
figuring out the best option available. One thing that makes America great is
diversity, we just need to figure out how to help immigrants do it correctly.
KJB,"do it in a lawful way"your move.
Little by little Obama will meet in the middle?
Shepherds teach right from wrong. I don't see that here.
Pres U perfect man of Faith there, being born in Czech, raised in Germany, now
of US, a very compassionate man who also understands importance of rule of law.
Kudos to Pres Obama for seeking this participation of men of Faith.
"He [President Obama] just said in this value process we need to stand
together and make sure the United States is still a place where people can come,
and once they come, feel not at fear. And do it, of course, in a lawful way. He
was talking about his principles and what he said is totally in line with our
values."-President Dieter F. UchtdorfOkay,
right-wingers from the DN boards. Your move.
Sounds like fun.
Christianity at work. The shepperds doing what they were called to do.
Rewarding dishonest actions will never stop the problem. Only enforcement will.
Give them a path to citizenship/work visas by returning home, going to the back
of the line, and coming back legally. This would help to deter future law
breakers. Family is not an issue, as separation by borders does not
break up a family. Do our servicemen overseas have broken families?