Bill,The more you demonize people, the less inclined they are to
consider you a Christian, much less have any desire to "fellowship" with
you as a member of your Church.
Brahmabull: In a talk by Elder Dahlin H Oaks the following was stated "For
men shall be lovers of their own selves, … disobedient to parents,
unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, … despisers of those that
are good, … lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God” (2 Tim.
3:1–4). He also said that “evil men and seducers shall wax worse and
worse, deceiving, and being deceived” (2 Tim. 3:13). In a moment I will
discuss what Paul told young Timothy about how to avoid this wickedness.The Apostle gave another warning against being deceived by the devil and
his pawns:“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,“Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor.
6:9–10)."There are some on this board who are trying to
deceive the faithful who are not honest in the dealings or in what they say. So
yes they do become pawns of satan..
Bill in Nebraska - once again you like to quote yourself with the pawns of satan
quote. Those who disagree with the church and voice questions over doctrine and
history are not pawns of satan. They are honest people who have honest
questions, most of which cannot be answered. The only answers are pray, read the
scriptures and listen to the spirit - all of which don't apply to the
questions that are being asked. You coined the 'pawns of satan'
phrase, and you do not speak for the majority of the church (thank goodness). I
don't recall any apostle or prophet recently that has used 'pawn of
satan' so you are alone with that doctrine.
Rather than debate whether any religion is true or not, why not just try it out?
If it doesn't work, then fine. At least you haven't spent time and
energy procrastinating a decision. You'll be one step closer to finding
what is true for you.
I would have thought twice before quoting Harold Bloom's favorable comments
on Joseph Smith, since Bloom has said elsewhere that he feels the modern LDS
church has departed from the prophet's original "religious genius"
( I think that's how he pu iot).
@ Bill in Nebraska, baptism, You underestimate God’s grace. Luke 23:43,
verse(44 JST), Jesus on the cross, to the thief, "Today shalt thou be with
me in **paradise. Verse 46,Jesus called out with a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this,
he breathed his last. RE; Montana Mormon , Genesis 3:22-23 LXX) And
God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of *us, to know good and evil, and now
lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and
eat, and so he shall live forever, So the Lord God sent him forth Out of the
garden(**paradeisos, G, 3857) of delight to cultivate the ground out of which he
was taken.The Trinity in the O.T.. Let *us make man in ‘Our
Image’ image and likeness …”(Genesis 1:26)“So God
created man in His “OWN(spiritual) Image” Male and
Female…(Genesis 1:27) If there were more than one God it would read in
“their image .”.
RE; Montana Mormon , Genesis 3:22-23 LXX) And God said, Behold, Adam is become
as one of *us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth
his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever,
So the Lord God sent him forth Out of the garden(**paradeisos, G, 3857) of
delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.The
Trinity in the O.T.. Let *us make man in ‘Our Image’ image and
likeness …”(Genesis 1:26)“So God created man in His
“OWN(spiritual) Image” Male and Female…(Genesis 1:27) If there
were more than one God it would read in “their image .”@Bill in Nebraska, Baptism, You underestimate God’s grace,Luke 23:43,
verse(44JST), Jesus on the cross, to the thief, "Today shalt thou be with me
in **paradise. Verse 46,Jesus called out with a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this,
he breathed his last.
As stated before apostates become the strongest critics of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is as it has long be stated, "They can
leave the Church but they can't leave the Church alone." The Book of
Mormon is full of these type of individuals who constantly stated that they once
believed but don't now. They became Lamanities and fought against the
Church of Christ. In the end they were all vanquished in some way or another.
They are forgotten except as a paragraph in History but the works of the
Lord's Prophets stand firm and constant. Joseph Smith who was a falible
man, with faults and weaknesses as all men have rose above them and with the
help of the Lord translated the Book of Mormon, established the restored Church
again to the earth, wrote a book of Doctrine and Covenants (modern day
revelations) and stood on the side of truth.Those who fight against
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints become Satan pawns and nothing
less, and nothing more. Yet, faith, repentance, baptism by immersion and the
Gift of Holy Ghost is still there even for them.
Greg Smith has done some of the most exhaustive, in depth research to date on
Joseph Smith. Literally not one shred of evidence exists to disprove his
(Joseph's) associates' claims that Joseph was spiritually in crescendo
his entire life. Not one shred of evidence exists to substantiate claims that
plural families were entered into by LDS leaders for physical gratification.
Tired, worn-out claims glibly repeated over and over simply do not hold water
when attempting to discredit The Prophet Joseph as a divine instrument of the
Father and The Son in restoring the Gospel.
@Montana Mormon:"How does the Greek Septuagint translate Genesis
3:22? "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to
know good and evil." In this KJV verse, God uses the first person plural
prepositional pronoun.""us" is quite simply God the
Eternal Father [JEHOVAH] speaking to His Eternal Son [Jesus Christ], who is the
ONLY person born on earth to have had a pre-mortal existence in heaven. Very
easy to understand.
@Henry Drummond"It seems the focus of his life is artificially pushed
into one of two camps - either he was a fraud or he wasn't. Wouldn't
it be more insightful to simply agree that Joseph Smith believed in his
prophetic calling and write a biography from that perspective? "What you are suggesting would be closer to the perspectives used for Martin
Luther or John Wesley (though they didn't really see themselves as
prophets). However, there's one major problem with doing that for Joseph
Smith. It's the plates. The concept of the plates translated by Smith is a
very tangible thing that fits into a very definitive fact or fraud basis. With
Luther or Wesley you can consider their teachings inspired or not but you can at
least still consider them sincere even if you disagree with them. With Smith
though... the plates either existed or they didn't. The room for thinking
he was sincere but wrong is a lot smaller.
@sharrona:I recognize and appreciate the knowledge you appear to
have of the Greek Septuagint, so this question is out of genuine interest:How does the Greek Septuagint translate Genesis 3:22? "And the LORD
God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."
In this KJV verse, God uses the first person plural prepositional pronoun.I'm not asking this question to be confrontational; I just want to
draw on the scholarship you have demonstrated in your previous posts that I have
read, especially since you like to quote the Greek Septuagint.
Joseph Smith was a man with human faults however, called of God to do a work of
restoration. Bringing back the foundation of The Church of Jesus Christ namely
Apostles and Prophets with Jesus Christ as the Chief cornerstone. And so it is
Jesus Christ is the Head of his church. After Christ died his church continued
to grow until the people killed the Prophets and Apostles then the great
Apostasy happened (the dark ages) It was foretold by Prophets long ago it
doesn't matter that the Lord used Joseph Smith as an instrument to bring
about the restoration of all things just lay aside all your hatred for this man
and ask God if it is true. I'm sure the people in the days of Noah thought
he was a visionary man as well just full of hot air. Or Moses, Abraham, Issac,
Jacob, Isaiah, all became great men because their professor was God. I believe
not because of Joseph Smith I believe because, like him, I asked and received a
witness from the Holy Ghost, who bears witness of all truth.
gcrobmd,That’s quite an eloquent testimony.For me,
the power of Joseph’s words are not in what they reveal but in what they
envision, not for man’s ultimate destiny but of his yearnings and
aspirations. Whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet, his enduring legacy is a
vital and vibrant religion. The controversies of his life aside, that much is
self-evident to me.
My opinion only:1. Men are imperfect and prone to error;2. God
mercifully relies upon imperfect men to bring to pass His purposes;3.
Joseph was born into mortality with unique talents/capacities which God later
amplified. These spiritual gifts thinned the veil between this world and
God's presence (examination of Joseph Smith, Sr. and his descendants
reveals this trait may be somewhat hereditary, if vastly concentrated in Joseph
Jr.);4. Human talents and traits often have dual strengths and weaknesses.
Example: intensely creative personalities may be more spiritually receptive, but
also more emotionally passionate, reactive, impulsive, and fragile. Intensely
practical, rational personalities often find creativity and spiritual
discernment challenging and remote;5. On one hand, Joseph's gift for
being "spiritually-attuned" made guidance from beyond the veil uniquely
accessible to him;6. On the other hand, Joseph's gifts or aspects of
mind and personality left him prone to occasional impulsive errors of judgment
in some statements and actions;7. Thankfully, minor human flaws do not
prevent God from revealing His will through His chosen servants;8. More
than we, God is loving, understanding, compassionate, and merciful to forgive.
RE: Gcrobmd, The breadth and consistency of Joseph Smith’s words are
proof enough that he wasn’t a fraud. His words are tender?Joseph Smith,” In the very beginning the bible shows there is a
plurality of Gods. Beyond the power of refutation”.(Hof C v. 6 p.476).Genesis 1:1 Greek Septuagint In the beginning God (*o Theos, Grk. 2316).
Clearly God, singular. *Nominative singular article.Joseph Smith,
Lectures on Faith, Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of
power. (5:2.). What is the son? First, he is a personage of tabernacle.(John 4:24 Greek N.T.) God [is] Spirit. “Our Father
which art in Heaven with. The supreme being transcends space and time. The first
goes to pieces if you begin to apply the literal(Mormonism) meaning to it. How
can a sexual animal really be our father? How can it be in the sky? The *second
falls into no such traps. C.S. Lewis.
The breadth and consistency of Joseph Smith’s words are proof enough that
he wasn’t a fraud. His words are tender. They empower the individual.
They reveal human greatness through the love of God, and how evil thrives when
people focus on personal gain. They reveal a God of more compassion, mercy, and
justice than imagined since the end of the first century CE. His words answer
the greatest questions of man’s destiny, the kingdom of heaven, and
God’s dealing with His children. Joseph’s words reveal a loving
heavenly Father who wants more than anything else that His children will be
happy. I trust my feelings that faithfully loving, protecting, and
providing for my wife and family is worthwhile. I trust my feelings that being
honest and charitable is good. I trust my feelings that people can achieve
greatness as communities and nations. Lastly, I trust my feelings that God
lives and is good and that I love Him, and that Joseph Smith and others are His
prophets. If I can’t trust my feelings for the last, then how can I trust
my feelings for all the other stuff?
@the truthI don't have to discredit a single claim -- it's
already been done by numerous credible scholars. Do your own research rather
than expect me to do it for you on a comment board. If you attempt it, you will
find it.That's the truth.
@Weber State GraduateYet you failed to discredit a single claim.Nor even attempt it.
Henry Drummond - "Most Mormons tell me that their belief in
Joseph Smith is based on faith, yet they insist that history empirically proves
his prophetic claims. I've never understood that."I
don't either, and I'm Mormon. There's supporting evidence, but
also evidence the other way. Biases lean us to one or the other, but ultimately
it all has to boil down to faith. "Unfortunately I fear such a
biography would only draw fire from those obsessed with "proving" or
"disproving" faith while missing the magnificent life of a unique
American."I think Bushman comes fairly close, but ultimately
anything by a believing Mormon will ever be acceptably neutral. At least
Bushman's upfront that he is a believer. There are some non-LDS historians
openly admire Joseph Smith and his role in American history without trying to
prove or disprove anything (Remini, Davies, DW Howe), but I'm a little
surprised at how many people just absolutely have to pick sides. Then again, that his name is "had for good or evil" as Moroni promised
might be another sign that it's all true! ;) (Sorry, couldn't help
taking a jab with my own biases!)
The Scientist,I don’t feel I have done anything other than
play defense. But I am sorry if you were offended.Tyler D,It is the advantage of time zones . . . And thanks.
Kirtland Bank. Age of wives. Nauvoo Expositor, Book of Abraham papyrus.
The Scientist – “Twin Lights… How biased, closed-minded, and
inconsiderate of others whose views do not exactly match your own.”Based on some of your past comments I recall, you and I are probably
much closer in our worldviews (atheist/agnostic, science as the means to
objective knowledge, etc…) then I am with Twin Lights (TL), but despite
that fact I have never known TL to be any of these characterizations –
with the possible exception of biased (but we’re all biased). Even following your last exchange with TL (Jainism article), despite the tone
being a bit strident, I thought it was a good hard hitting debate.But this comment is not only disappointing, it’s lazy and beneath
you.Everyone has a bad day, but in the spirit of being a positive
participant in the marketplace of ideas, try to keep it above the belt. Wagging finger stopped… dismounting high horse.PS
– Did get a good chuckle out of TL’s comment as it was clever
“preemptive strike” against the JS critics, but that tactic can go
both ways (e.g., “here comes the JS love fest…
@The ScientistWow! Project much?
Shimlau wrote:"Twin Lights: How right you are!"Twin Lights: How wrong you are! How biased, closed-minded, and inconsiderate
of others whose views do not exactly match your own.
Twin Lights: How right you are!
Henry Drummond,I concur with your views on Richard Bushman’s
and Fawn Brodie’s biographies of Joseph Smith. Rough Stone Rolling is a
remarkable achievement that can be held to rigorously high standards of
scholarship with the author holding firm to his religious faith.In
my view, Fawn Brodie’s biography has been unjustly pilloried by faithful
LDS since it was published. It’s clearly the work of a Mormon who has lost
her faith but I found it sympathetic to Joseph on a human level. It remains the
most influential and groundbreaking of the bios about Joseph Smith.
I am not LDS but I find Joseph Smith to be a fascinating individual. I have read both Dr. Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling" as well as
Professor Brodie's "No Man Knows My History." Some have dismissed
Richard Bushman's work as nothing more than apologia from a believing
Mormon. Likewise, others disdain Fawn Brodie's book as the disgruntled
writings of a lapsed Mormon. Reading both books for their content rather than
serving up polemical attacks on their respective authors is far more insightful.
Both deserve respect for their scholarship.Most Mormons tell me that
their belief in Joseph Smith is based on faith, yet they insist that history
empirically proves his prophetic claims. I've never understood that. It
seems the focus of his life is artificially pushed into one of two camps -
either he was a fraud or he wasn't. Wouldn't it be more insightful to
simply agree that Joseph Smith believed in his prophetic calling and write a
biography from that perspective? Unfortunately I fear such a
biography would only draw fire from those obsessed with "proving" or
"disproving" faith while missing the magnificent life of a unique
@Craig Clark, what claims are you referring to? Those recorded in the standard
Joseph’s claim to be a prophet of God surpasses traditions of Luther,
Calvin, and Zwingli whose claims as leading figures of the Reformation were
based on human reason. But what need is there for a theologian if you have a
prophet delivering the word of God? Joseph Smith should be held to more exacting
standards considering the audacity of his claims. There’s nothing unfair
@BrahmabullYour premise is grossly incorrect. It doesn't matter what
was in Joseph Smith's mind...you have to compare what he recorded with what
is in the Bible. If you record what others said with the Bible, you would have
a very difficult time suggesting they were equally a prophet as Joseph Smith
was. People die for all sorts of crazy reasons...not a good premise for your
RE: Craig Clark, Joseph Smith was certainly not shallow. His intutitive
intelligence transcended much of his deficiencies in formal *education. But his
claims and his **character are fair game for biographers and historians to
consider.*(JS)"Don't employ lawyers, or pay them money for
their knowledge, for I have learned that they don't know anything. I know
more than they all." (D.H.C.. vol. 5. p. 467).**(JS)I have more
to Boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to
keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the
whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I
boast that no man ever did such a work as I.(HofC. Vol 6. pp 408-,409.**(JS)God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He
will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and
if you don't like it, you must lump it." HofC, vol. 6. pp. 319, 320
Just because Joseph Smith may have believed he was doesn't mean that he
really was. You also can't conclude that because he was a good person and
did good that he was a prophet. How many men of that time were good men? That
doesn't make them prophets either nor does it validate any of there
visionary claims. Many people die for their religion because they KNOW that it
is true. Many are also incarcerated because of their beliefs. Just because they
are right in their mind doesn't make it true. Many people since Joseph
Smith have claimed they werer prophets. Well they can believe it all their
lives, but I don't.
Great analysis of the prophet's influence and position. In a simple to
read description of the prophets efforts and what his revelation brought to my
understanding about the Bible I've written "Day of Defense: Positive
Talking Points for the Latter Days".
"The notion of Joseph Smith as a lazy, scheming, yarn-spinning
ne'er-do-well without a single serious idea in his head simply can’t
withstand scrutiny."In this respect, Peterson is accurate.
Joseph Smith was an extraordinarily talented individual, very clever, and
insightfully shrewd with an uncanny ability for understanding much of the
religious thinking of his time.Many LDS critics casually dismiss
Joseph Smith's ability, discount his contribution to religious thought, and
try and paint him as a religious charlatan with surreptitious goals for personal
power. I believe this is a mistake and it perpetuates an unfortunate ad hominem
fallacy. Many of Joseph Smith's claims can be discredited easily enough
without attacking him personally.The mistake Peterson makes is to
advance an irrelevant association and correlate it with the veracity of
Smith's prophetic claims. Peterson's use of "honor by
association" fallacy is no different than Smith's ad hominem critics
employing the old "guilt by association" trick. Both reasoning is
equally flawed.Smith shares many of the same qualities as Ann Lee,
Charles Taze Russell, Ron Hubbard, Elijah Muhammad, and Mary Baker Eddy. Such
qualities don't necessarily validate their prophetic claims either.
Your writing is always enlightening and fun to read. Thanks Bro. Peterson.
Somewhere along the line I may buy a couple of your books. LOL
As a non-believer, I would echo Bloom’s analysis. And even
assuming good motives, do I think Joseph was talking to real entities and
apprehend objective knowledge? No. But the same goes for every other visionary,
mystic or prophet so it’s not meant to disparage.But the
criticism of Joseph the man should not be casually swept under rug. Brodie may
have cherry picked and made wholly negative assumptions, but it doesn’t
make her wrong. Although Grant Palmer and Richard Bushman probably do a better
overall job in their biographies – the main difference being that Bushman
assumes Joseph was who he said he was, and Palmer does not. For me,
he was a deeply flawed visionary and charismatic religious genius. Fair?
@Whos Life RU Living?"Well this comment board is like North
Korea. Enjoy."Now there's some truth. Freedom of speech
doesn't apply here ... very biased moderation.
Well this comment board is like North Korea. Enjoy.
Joseph Smith was certainly not shallow. His intutitive intelligence transcended
much of his deficiencies in formal eduction. But his claims and his character
are fair game for biographers and historians to consider.
A wonderful analsys and presentation. Thank you Brother Peterson. No matter
how many detractors attack Joseph, they will never be able to stop God's
work or the stone rolling forth.
Another great defense of the prophet Joseph Smith by Daniel Peterson. Your
insights are always understandable and thought provoking. I can never get
enough. Thank you.
And now for the litany of common complaints recycled post after post (despite
many being disproved) by those who simply cannot abide the thought of anyone
saying anything nice about Joseph. 3 . . 2 . . 1