Phenomenal effort. I was proud to have cheered the team on a great Sunday game
with fellow true fansI hope for more Sunday games against top 10
opponents, with just a few more pointsGood game guys! We are behind
Smells a lot like a three win season for the utes again in the PAC. With three
senior starters this doesn't look much like rebuilding. But you won more
cupcake games this year.
I will take this over being a nobody in a nobody conference anyday. With coach k
and loveridge the future is bright. People forget Jordan was playing high
school ball last year. For a true freshman I see plenty of upside. By his junior year we will be a force in the PAC 12.
It won't be long before their near misses turn into wins. Coach K is
rebuilding the team and doing it the right way.
You know times are tough in ute-ville when the fans are this happy after losing.
Washburn isn't happy with it, why should the fans be? I guess when all you
have is moral victories, you'll take anything.
The trolls really do know their basketball, don't they?Jan
6-7:Chris B's momma: "Both teams will beat you by double fidgets
on the hill. You won't be looked past by them again."Eddie:
"It looks as though teams are looking past the Utes and soon teams
won't be doing that and you will see these close losses turn to bigger
losses. All these teams are just looking beyond the bad Utes and until they
"upset" someone, no one is going to really take them too
seriously."And, of course, the hate-blinded sports
"expert" Duckhunter: "The 2nd time through will probably see much
larger margins of victory over utah for most of these teams as they will have
already seen it and will be better prepared for it... Look for ua to win by a
more significant margin next time."Utah's shown
consistently they can compete and be in position to beat anybody. Now just time
to get over the hump and do it.
I didn't learn anything new by reading the article: the Utes were close
once again, but ultimately fell short. And they seem to be closer to breaking
through.I did however, learn something new from reading the
comments: Stg2Slc seems to have weeks worth of comments/predictions saved he
hopes won't come true later. "Frantic and emotional" comes to mind.
@stgThey still LOST, and really had no chance to win.
Agarrett...do you understand anything about opponent strength? Utah lost to #9
AZ while Y beat #247 Portland...And you squawk about us being
excited about a 4 point loss to #9? I'm thinking about it and yes, a 4
point loss to #9 is better than a win against #247.
I guarantee that Arizona is not the #9 team in the country. They will make the
dance but be lucky to advance out of the first round.
@indycrimson"I'm thinking about it and yes, a 4 point loss
to #9 is better than a win against #247."Really? Losing is
"better" than winning? Only a loser program would make that claim. Tell
us indy are you willing to give back those 8 "wins" against teams ranked
in the 200's and 300's that actually make up the VAST majority of
utah's "wins" this season for some losses to some better teams?
After BYU's win they dropped to #62 in the Sag Rating and Portland dropped
to #250...Poor teams begat poor ranking...
Oh, and your conference is ranked worse than the A10 and Missouri Valley
"Stg2Slc seems to have weeks worth of comments/predictions saved he hopes
won't come true later."agb, actually the DNews does that
for me, and it's quite simple to look up.Duckhunter, please
keep those gems coming so you can continue to show you really don't know
what you're talking about.
Gee whiz, I thought for sure the utes would two in a row - sigh...
The Utes have gotten so much better this year. A ton of close losses
doesn't make their record look much better than last year. Close losses are
sometimes the tough to swallow pill. Hopefully next year the medicine kicks in
and the Utes learn how to win close games. The Utes have to keep
fighting because it's hard to believe you can win tight games against good
teams (or any team for that matter) until you do it. Doing it will be the test
that calls to keep grinding for the winning result in the end. Utah
has gone down to the wire with Arizona both at home and the road. The effort is
noted by me and many loyal Ute fans. Duckhunter wants to blast Ute
fans for not caring enough about their team and then blast them for being proud
of their team when they lose on the flipside. Go figure. Yes Duckhunter, you are
correct, Utah is a losing team. I believe they will overcome that soon with
Coach K. They might have already if they played Portland and most all other WCC
teams twice (except Gonzaga and St. Marys).
@ hedgelog "But you won more cupcake games this year"Yes,
and BYU won fewer cupcake games this year with their 130 SOS (Utah 80 SOS).
Careful whose schedule you are calling cupcake.EdGrady "Gee
whiz, I thought for sure the Utes would two in a row - sigh...Unfortunately Utah couldn't seem to get #250 Portland and #152 San
Francisco on the schedule back to back, otherwise they may have very well won
two conference games in a row. Heck, even BYU couldn't beat #250 and #152
Yeah, the Utes lost again... playing in the PAC is tough. Something BYU will
never know. Enjoy those Portland and Idaho teams Cougars, because we
all know... YOU HAVE A BRAND! Funny.Boise State is pretty good I
guess... They own all the Utah teams right?
So, Dirk. What was the actual attendance? Not what Baghdad Bob said was
"announced" attendance. The root word for attendance is attend. If
there were 5,000 there I would be surprised.
Can't win half their games with either football, or basketball.Moral victories are great!
@stgDidn't you bring me up in this article? I wasn't even
going to post anything until then. But since you brought me here let's
discuss it.I find it hilarious that you guys celebrate losses.
That's right, for utah "fans" like yourself it is all about
"playing them close" and gaining "moral victories". They keep
losing, just baout every game they play, many of them are still absolute
poundings, yet when they manage to keep a game close, and still lose anyway,
utah "fans" act as if something has been accomplished. In a funny way I
suppose utah "fans" are correct, those are accomplishments for utah,
when you standard is so very low I guess playing a close game is cause for a
parade.It seems like the cheers we hear from the hill these days are
all celebrations of failure, stuff like "We're #2!" or "We
played them close!", or the all time chant from a school and
"fan"base that has nothing to celebrate of their own "We're in
@indycrimson - "I'm thinking about it and yes, a 4 point loss to #9 is
better than a win against #247."Oh, so my Cougars losing to
Notre Dame in football by 3 was really a good thing. Got it.@Roger
Jolly - "Enjoy those Portland and Idaho teams Cougars" What? BYU didn't play any Idaho teams. U are the one who played two
Idaho teams, including College of Idaho.Boylen's worst year at
Utah was 13 - 18. Krystkowiaks's best record in two years will not be
13-18 and yet Ute fans still believe they are on the way back. U will lose 3 of
your 4 leading scorers next year. This is not rebuilding. There is not another
Loveridge in the pipeline. Rebuilding would include more minutes for Bachynski
and Taylor, and less for Dubois and Washburn.BYU is rebuilding this
year with three Sophomore's starting and two Sophomore's as the next
two off the bench.
I'll take BYU's RPI ranking over Utah's RPI ranking any day:#68 BYU(19-8) #103 SOS > #166 Utah(11-14) #60 SOSDespite
all of their bluster about conference affiliation and moral victories, the
Utes' RPI would only be good enough for 7th in the WCC, ahead of only 3
teams; and not much better than their current 10th place standing in the PAC,
ahead of only 2 teams.Highest Ranked Teams in each conferenceWCC #3 Gonzaga (the Bulldogs JUMPED from #5 after beating SMC and SF)PAC #12 Arizona (the Wildcats DROPPED from #9 after squeaking past the sorry
Utes)The truth is, any team that struggles as much as the Wildcats
have against a weak team like Utah, simply isn't a Top 10 caliber team.
Utah fans just don't seem to understand that Utah's four RPI Top 100
wins are offset by Utah's FIVE RPI 150+ losses.It's funny
how they like to pretend that these never happened:#294 Sac St 71-74
at home#212 CSN 71-76 at home#191 SMU 55-62#188 WSU 65-75#172 OSU 64-82Fortunately, Willamette (NAIA) and College of Idaho
(D-II) aren't included in Utah's SOS, or it would be much lower. Unfortunately, their RPI also doesn't include those two
"wins". The Utes still don't have double-digit wins against D-I
opponents.Likely finish: 12-19, IF the Utes are lucky enough to win
their rematch with OSU, but not lucky enough to pull off an opening round upset
in the conference tourney.
Duckhunter: "That's right, for utah "fans" like yourself it is
all about "playing them close" and gaining "moral
victories"."When did I ever say I was happy with playing
teams close? Close games are always entertaining to watch, which is really what
sports is about, but I'm never happy with losing. Seeing so many games go
down to the wire has been a lot of fun this season, but the disproportionate
number of losses in those games is frustrating. The difference between BYU
"fans" like yourself and the BYU fans that I know is that the fans
don't disappear or deflect when all of their misguided predictions
don't come true, or make false character accusations against the opposing
team's players just because their team didn't play as well against
them as he/she expected them to.
"WCC #3 Gonzaga (the Bulldogs JUMPED from #5 after beating SMC and SF)PAC #12 Arizona (the Wildcats DROPPED from #9 after squeaking past the sorry
Utes)"Umm, actually, the Bulldogs "JUMPED" because #2
Duke and #4 Michigan both lost, and it appears that Arizona's squeaker
versus Utah didn't really affect them that much considering they had just
been blown out by Colorado and only lost 3 spots. It actually just proves the
parity in the conference that the team that went undefeated against the
MWC's, the ACC's and the SEC's best can still potentially lose to
any team in their conference. Think. Then type.
gdog3finally"The Utes have gotten so much better this
year."If improving from #270 to #166 is your idea of "so
much better," congratulations.The sad reality is the Utes will
be losing two of their three best players and half of their scoring from the
#244th worst scoring team in the country.Your best returning player
has only managed to score more than 14 points TWICE in conference play, while
being held to single-digits or scoreless in FIVE games.It'll be
back to the drawing board for another rebuilding year next season.
StGtoSLCNice spin, but bottom line is the best team in the WCC is
currently ranked almost 10 places higher than the best team in the PAC 12.Of course, "parity" isn't just confined to conference play,
considering how a middle-of-the-road Big Sky team, ranked #294th, or a bottom of
the barrel Big West team, ranked #212, could knock off a bottom of the barrel
PAC team, ranked #166, on their home court.
Marked, what "spin?" When a team wins their games, they move ahead of
the teams that did lose. That's how it works. And yeah, the Utes are a very
inconsistent team that can play up or down to any level of competition, who has
Does byu have a victory this season against the RPI Top-50?UTAH has
2 such victories [current #'s 21 and 42] and 2 more against current
#'s 70 and 84....And we're in the first year of rebuilding and have
done so against currently the #60 ranked SOS.Is it true that byu has
won two games in the tourney only once since '81, when they had Ainge and
registered the only year byu has ever won three games, yet never, ever reached
the final four, correct? Just curious....Thanks.
@ Rockwell"PAC #12 Arizona (the Wildcats DROPPED from #9 after
squeaking past the sorry Utes)"Really? You don't think
Zona's drop could be due to the fact that they lost two games in a row
before playing Utah?
StGtoSLCWe all get it.Losing by only a few points or
only dropping a little in the polls are now considered marks of excellence by
the PAC 10.2.
Wasn't ND's QB out when they played byu, but in when they played PITT,
which played ND far more competitively?
AZUTE1Is it true that Utah basketball has all but disappeared from
the national landscape during the Dave Rose era?Is it true that the
Utes haven't won a NCAA tournament game in almost a decade?20+
Win SeasonsRose 8Utah 1Losing SeasonsRose 0Utah 6NCAA TournamentsRose 6Utah 1NCAA
Tournament RecordRose 4-6Utah 0-1Overall RecordRose 204-62(77%)Utah 112-133(46%)Head-to-headRose 12
(including 11 of the last 12)Utah 3The Utes have gotten so bad
that they won't even schedule Utah State and Weber State anymore. Not
because the Utes think they're too good for their instate rivals, but
because they're scared to death of being embarrassed by them.A
disappointing 20+ win, NCAA/NIT tournament, rebuilding year for BYU would be
considered a monumental breakthrough by our little brothers on the hill.U can deny that if it helps you sleep at night, but that's the
AZUTE1Wasn't Notre Dame still ranked in the Top 5 and still
playing at home when BYU played them? Is a Top 5 team really so
fragile that they don't have a capable backup to replace an injured
starter?The spin Utah fans have to put on things to help them feel
better about themselves is truly laughable.
2ferArizona's loss to California was already accounted for in
their drop from #7 to #9 in the previous week's polls.A road
win over a good team would have offset Arizona's road loss to Colorado and
probably kept the Wildcats in the Top 10. Unfortunately for Arizona, Utah
isn't a good team, so the Wildcats dropped even further, from #9 to #12.
@stg"Close games are always entertaining to watch,"Uh....no they aren't. Have you actually watched utah play this year?
There's nothing "entertaining" about it. Their style of play,
designed to keep them from getting blown out, not really as a means to win, is
awful to behold, booring beyond belief, almost painful to tell you the truth.But you have posted on here may times how happy you are with this type
of play and how good it has been, blah, blah, blah. Anyone can play a slowdown
hackfest and keep a game close purely by not having either team score all that
much, but "entertaining" is the last thing anyone other than a utah
"fan" would call it. Most of the rest of us prefer exciting and high
scoring games, that more than 2/3rds of the time still actually result in wins
rather than painfully slow foulfests that still usually end up in losses."We played them close! We're #2! PAC12 is us!"
Yep! It's worth taking a beating for the extra money of the pac. It pads
the amount of wins to help others reach a bowl, or NCAA tournament.Hmm? Now I see why BYU wasn't selected.
Ah yet another my brother can beat up your brother of BYU vs U. Guys this was an article about the U and UA. How does BYU get thrown in? I
am a BYU fan but root for the U and I am in Arizona. Did I miss something or
was BYU not even mentioned? Too bad the Utes lost but I am glad they
gave them all they could want. UA is suppose to be very good. 1 or 2 seed. I
think Utah is a few plays of being a much better team than their record
suggests. Looks like they are on the right track guess time will tell. I for
one want them to do well and I am more Blue than Red. Good teams make good teams
around them. How about we focus on this game and not another team.
Duckhunter: "But you have posted on here may times how happy you are with
this type of play"Give me actual quotes on how "happy" I
am after losses instead of your made up "Pac 12 is us" quotes. Keep your
NBA all-star game style of play, I'll take coaching and strategy over
pick-up ball. No one is asking you to watch, and it's obvious you
haven't watched much, so the frequent commentary on games you never saw are
a little puzzling. But I guess to each his own obsession.
What school is this? We Lost to Sacramento State on our home floor this year...
Lost to Cal Northridge on our home floor this year ... and we are 1 win and 11
losses against a team only 40 miles to the south over the past 7 years...
Attendance is very weak to all of our home games unless we are playing the team
40 miles to the South which has dominated us and even then the Center fills with
mostly their fans...Our team has played the University of Arizona
very close the past two times that we have played them while the team 40 miles
to the south has beaten the U of A team by a combined total of 52 points the
last two times they have played them within the past 4 years... 30 points on the
U of Arizona Floor and 22 points on the Jazz's home floor... Give up?
What happened to Utah no playing at home on Sunday? I thought Utah had
something worked out with the Pac-12. Even the NBA schedules the Jazz away on
shortsIt's obvious that Chris Hill and the PAC 10.2
couldn't care less if half the lower bowl is empty because all of those
good LDS season ticket holders are doing what they're supposed to be doing
on the Sabbath.
They just can't get over the hump, but after last year; certainly moving in
the right direction. I think it's quite commical. All of the BYU fans (aka
Utah Haters) taking shots at the Utes. Mean while BYU hasn't beaten a
decent team all season and is destin for the NIT (best case).
Spokane UteBYU is all but guaranteed an NIT berth. Best case
scenario for BYU would be sweeping their last four regular season games, winning
the WCC tourney, and getting the NCAA auto bid.Meanwhile, despite
all of your chest beating about beating or losing close games to good teams,
Utah is still ranked almost a hundred places below BYU. Care to
explain that?#69 BYU#167 UtahOh, and don't
waste our time with some lame excuse about playing a tougher schedule. SOS is
already included in the RPI calculation.
@Spokane UteUtah is improving, but close losses are still losses,
and your 4 good wins over RPI Top 100 teams don't mean nearly as much when
you have 6 bad losses to RPI 100+ teams.Utah's other five D-1
wins have come against RPI 150+ teams:#333 Idaho State#289
Texas State#259 Central Michigan#192 SMU#152 Wright State#102 USCBesides, since BYU beat Utah this year, it wouldn't
matter if BYU finished 1-30 and Utah finished 30-1, BYU would still better than
U, wouldn't they?
Correction#102 USC was actually a bad loss.
@ UtehaterI stand corrected (and so will you); best case scenerio
for both teams is an NCAA bid, since both play in a conference tourney.Chest
beating? Care to explain? Stating that "Utah can't get over the
hump" is far from that, but nice job of putting words in my mouth. Strength
of schedule? Get your facts straight. Both RPI and Sagarin rankings, have a
seperate rating for the strength of schedule item. Per Saragin: BYU = 128, Utah
= 73. Per RPI: BYU = 98, Utah = 65. It's pretty amussing when you pop off,
yet don't have a clue. @The Sports Authority.Rank
Utah and BYU best 5 wins. Let's see 'em. Of course Utah's had bad
losses; did I say otherwise? When BYU finishes 30-1 and Utah finishes 1-30, we
can address the question. That would be what they call a fluke, and yes on that
day; Utah would be the better team. It's called winning on the playing
field. A concept you have trouble grasping; at least when it doesn't fit
Why didnt' you two actually address my comment/statement?"BYU hasn't beaten a decent team all season"I guess
the truth hurts. It's easier to deflect, and put words in others mouth,
then actually respond honestly and have a civil debate. Pretty sad; but
certainly par for the course.
Spokane UteWhen are U going to learn that SOS is MEANINGLESS if U
don't WIN!The reality that U seem to be struggling to grasp is
that teams are judged by the ENTIRETY of their season, not just a single win or
even several wins. You have to balance the wins against the losses and the
SOS.Regardless of RPI or Sagarin, football or basketball, BYU has
been ranked higher than Utah in both football and basketball during the last two
seasons. What further proof do you need that BYU has been better in both
football and basketball during the Independent/WCC/PAC era?Current
RPI/Sagarin Basketball Rankings#69/#62 BYU > #167/#134 UtahWhen are Utah fans going to stop using SOS as a convenient excuse for
Spokane Ute"BYU hasn't beaten a decent team all
season"BYU beat U didn't we? Oh wait, you said
"decent" team.BYU beat #92 Santa Clara twice. Every team in
the RPI Top 100 is considered a decent team.BYU is a decent team,
but not a great team this year. Most of the decent teams the Cougars have lost
to have been road/neutral site games. The only home game BYU lost to a decent
team was that half-court buzzer beater to SMC.Now answer this
one:How does a team lose to #213 CS Northridge and #294 Sacramento
St at home, but then beat #83 Washington on the road?
Spokane Ute"When BYU finishes 30-1 and Utah finishes 1-30, we
can address the question. That would be what they call a fluke, and yes on that
day; Utah would be the better team. It's called winning on the playing
field. A concept you have trouble grasping; at least when it doesn't fit
your agenda."It's laughable that you turned my example
completely around, and then still dodged the question by deferring your answer
to another day.You seem to be struggling with the concept that one
game does not a season make. Even you referred to a 30-win team losing to a
1-win team as a "fluke", but then still tried to defend your illogical
position by claiming that the team that wins "on the field" is ALWAYS
the "better" team, even though you then qualified your statement by
stating that was only for "that day".It's not a
question of agenda; it's simply an acknowledgement of reason.You won't find a single BYU fan who claims that BYU's 1-25 team was
"better" than Utah State, even though the Cougars beat the Aggies on the
court "that day".
"How does a team lose to #213 CS Northridge and #294 Sacramento St at home,
but then beat #83 Washington on the road?"Sounds like a fluke -
the road win, that is.
@Spokane Ute"Why didn't you two actually address my
comment/statement? BYU hasn't beaten a decent team all season"It's interesting that you're so obsessed with BYU beating decent
teams, now that Utah has had a couple of breakthrough wins in basketball, when
you were so completely unconcerned with Utah's complete lack of beating
decent teams in football, except, of course, Utah's only win over a decent
team, BYU.Of course that begs the question: "How
could BYU be considered a decent team and still not be considered better than a
team with a losing record that couldn't even remotely be considered a
Class is in session:Marked it Down: Just stating Utah has played a tougher
schedule; and they have. Sorry if the facts and figurse back it up; but deal
with it; it's the truth."SOS is meaningless if you don't
win" Kind of like going 0-5 vs. top 50 teams and losing to #155 San Fran and
#165 San Diego? That' Karma; mark that down.Y's little
Brother."#93 Santa Clara is a decent team". No need to continue;
that says it all. You are excused from class today.TheSportsspinnerI
can't make it any simplier than I already have. When a team wins by scoring
more points they are the better team. Now, once in a while a huge shocker comes
along; Chaminade beating Virginia in hoops when UVa had Sampson; or Appy State
knocking of Michigan in the Big House. The fact of the matter is that Utah was
better than BYU (the last 3 years) in football, and BYU was, and is, better than
Utah in basketball. When was BYU 1-25?
ScottWho's on who's thread? Is this a BYU or a Utah
article? I find it extremely amussing that by origionally stating that Utah
can't get over the hump and that BYU hasn't beaten a good team all
season, all of the Utah Haters get so riled up. It's true. It's not a
spin; it's just the facts. I noticed Utnymous ran off pretty quick when I
countered his post that was completely wrong and unfounded, with facts and
statistics. I've also noticed that the sportsauthority refuses to answer my
question; and rank each team best 5 wins? Now that's curious.
Spokane Ute"#93 Santa Clara is a decent team". No need to
continue"It's laughable that you're so blinded by your
PAC 10.2 arrogance.Here's a little summary from a game played
earlier this season that might open your eyes a little."Duke
faced its first big test as a top-ranked team this season, and its three key
seniors made sure the Blue Devils passed it. Five minutes into the 2nd half,
Santa Clara led 45-41, before Seth Curry scored 12 of his season-high 31 points
during a late run that helped No. 1 Duke pull away for a 90-77 victory over
pesky Santa Clara on Saturday."
Outspoken UteI can't make it any simpler than has already been
stated ad nauseam. When a team wins by scoring more points, they win the game.
That doesn't PROVE they're the better team. That's why some games
are accurately described as UPSETS, because the majority of fans recognize that
the better team did not win.Better teams establish themselves by
being better throughout an entire season, not for just one game.Is
Sacramento State better than Utah?Is CS Northridge better than Utah?Is Washington State better than Utah?Answer those questions
truthfully and accurately, without any qualifiers, and you'll have your
answer as to why one game does not a season make.
@spokane ute"Who's on who's thread? Is this a BYU or a
Utah article?"Who made you thread monitor?"I've also noticed that the SportsAuthority refuses to answer my
question; and rank each team best 5 wins?"Why don't you
start by ranking each team's worst 5 losses? Losses count just as much as
wins."Both RPI and Sagarin rankings, have a seperate [sic]
rating for the strength of schedule..."Why are you so obsessed
with SOS? SOS doesn't measure how good a team is, it simply measures how
good their competition is. If you really want to compare two teams, you should
be comparing their overall rankings, which include SOS and records against good
and bad teams.Current RPI/Sagarin Basketball Rankings#69/#62 BYU > #167/#134 UtahIf you're only willing to
cherry-pick the highlights of Utah's season, without considering the
lowlights, you'll never understand why Utah is ranked almost 100 places
LOWER than BYU in the only rankings that really count.It's
going to be a travesty if UCLA gets into the Big Dance, but Cal Poly is left on
the outside looking in, considering Cal Poly is BETTER than UCLA.
In closing:Sorry Riddler, but Santa Clara is not a good team, they
won't make the NCAA and will be lucky to make the NIT. If you would like to
base there greatness on a half of a game, and a loss against Duke, so be it. We
can agree to disagree.PAC, yes, yes and yes. They beat us on the court.
Would we beat them today? probably. Did they beat us? Of course. One is opinion,
the other is fact. Did I ever say one game makes a season? I do agree, the
better team doesn't always win, it's called an upset. Personally,
I'd rather have the win then the popular vote. Troy Town, I have to
work tomorrow, can you provide cliff notes?Wow, what a reaction.
Simply for stating that I hope Utah get's over the hump and that BYU
hasn't beaten any good teams. Both are true! Everyone take a double chill
pill dose...........and have a good evening. Don't take comments
personally, just fans supporting differen't teams, with different opinions.
PAC manYour argument is much too logical for Spokane Ute to
respond.I do find it interesting that he's willing to concede
that "once in a while a huge shocker comes along" that completely
invalidates his hard and fast rule that the team that wins on the field or on
the hardwood is ALWAYS the better team.Next time you're
interested knowing who the better team is, don't check the records or the
polls, just ask Spokane Ute. He's the keeper of the super secret formula
that determines when the rule does or does not apply.
Spokane UteSo you agree with Troy Town that it will be a travesty if
UCLA gets into the Big Dance, but Cal Poly is left on the outside looking in,
since #183 Cal Poly(12-11) beat #41 UCLA(19-7) on UCLA's home court and is
therefore a BETTER team than UCLA?Isn't it amazing how
convoluted things can get when you abandon all reason.
deductive reasoningI did respond, tough time reading? You are right,
head to head competition means absolutely nothing. It's the popular vote
that determines who's better. Kind of like gymnastics. Do you feel better
now?Mussning around, troy town, and any other name you use,Convoluted? not to me. Who said that one game determines who goes to the big
dance? Nice job of putting words in my mouth again though. Sheeeesh!
@spokane ute"Who said that one game determines who goes to the
big dance?"Who said that one game determines who the better team
is?Granted, if two teams have similar won/loss records and similar
rankings, the head-to-head is often used as the tie-breaker, but when one team
has a better record and higher ranking than the other, head-to-head is
meaningless except for head-to-head bragging rights.Upsets happen.
Better teams lose to lesser teams all the time. But, rankings are
based on the overall body of work throughout the entire season. Better teams
rise to the top. Lesser teams sink to the bottom.It's laughable
that you cite SOS of rankings as gospel, but then completely ignore team
rankings because they're "subjective". Here's a
clue. SOS rankings are nothing more than a compilation of the
opponents' team rankings. If the team rankings are invalid, so are the SOS
rankings.In 2011, BYU finished higher in the rankings than Utah, and
was therefore considered a better team.In 2012, the difference was even
greater.Higher ranking = Better teamDeal with it!
So if BYU would have lost to Utah State by 20 points last night, they would
still be the better team, right? The game means absolutely nothing. BYU is
ranked higher; so BYU is the better team, even when they lose. What a concept.
Now who needs to get a clue?Too Funny!
So in 2011, BYU was beaten by Utah, at home, 54-10. Yet they were still the
better team because the Saragin rankings say so? There goes your credibility.
Deal with it!
Spokane Ute"So if BYU would have lost to Utah State by 20 points
last night, they would still be the better team, right?"I'll answer your question with a two-part question.#2
Miami(22-3) LOST to unranked Florida Gulf Coast(19-9) 51-63RPI/Sagarin Rankings#2/#10 Miami vs #105/#150 Florida Gulf
CoastWhich team is better and why?
I don't know what the argument is. BYU is better than Utah. This does not
make BYU good. Beating good teams would make an argument that BYU is any good,
but it hasn't happened, so there is no argument. Utah is not very good.
Having more than a couple bad losses despite a few good wins shows that. BYU has
shown to be the best team in a state of bad basketball this year. There's
your medal, what else is there to discuss?
"So in 2011, BYU was beaten by Utah, at home, 54-10. Yet they were still the
better team because the Saragin [sic] rankings say so?"In 2011
Oklahoma St(12-1) LOST to Iowa St(8-5) 31-37.Oklahoma St finished #3
in AP and Coaches; Iowa St finished unranked.In 2011 BYU(10-3) LOST
to Utah(8-5) 10-54Coaches/AP/Sagarin Final Rankings#25/#26/#34 BYU > unranked/#39 UtahNot only did Sagarin rank
BYU higher, so did the AP and Coaches Polls.That's the kind of
thing that happens when you lose to a 10-loss team on your home field in the
last regular season game of the season.Choosing to ignore the
rankings when you don't agree with them, destroys your credibility when you
beat your chest about beating ranked teams. Either the polls are credible or
they're not. You can't cite poll results only when they fit your
StGtoSLCLooks like you're arguing with yourself. Who's to say whether a team ranked #62 in RPI and Sagarin is good or
mediocre.I haven't read a single post from any BYU fan claiming
that BYU is a great or even a very good team this season, but, they are a lot
better overall than their instate rivals.
Marked, how am I arguing with myself? What in "BYU has shown to be the best
team in a state of bad basketball this year" says anything different than
what you said, or what I already said. YOU are arguing for the sake of arguing,
which still makes me wonder... what's to argue? Hilarious.
@StGtoSLCAmen! Spot on!Markeditdown and backpacnYou chose to ignore head to head results when it fits your agenda.
I'll do the same and ignore obscure rankings. When I look in the top 25 I
don't see either team. When the NCAA field is announced I won't see
either team. BYU hasn't beaten a good team but they have beaten up the cup
cakes in the WCC. Utah has beaten good teams, but has way too many loses to both
good and bad teams. I will Fed-ex you a Brownie button if you forward me your
address though. Would that help ease your anger and angst?
Spokane UteIt's not a question of ignoring head-to-head
results; it's simply an acknowledgement of common sense that a single game
is not the measuring stick for an entire season.Anybody who tries to
claim that a 3-10 team is better than an 8-5 team simply because the 10-loss
team won the head-to-head game is simply blowing smoke.NOBODY, not
even you, actually believes that.It's laughable that you put so
much stock in SOS ratings, yet choose to ignore team ratings when it's
convenient.The ratings aren't obscure. It's just your
feeble attempt to ignore reality that is clouding your ability see clearly.
Spokane UteI noticed you're still dodging my question?#2 Miami(22-3) LOST to unranked Florida Gulf Coast(19-9) 51-63Current RPI/Sagarin Rankings#2/#10 Miami vs #105/#150 Florida Gulf
CoastWhich team is better and why?
Spokane Ute"You chose to ignore head to head results when it
fits your agenda. I'll do the same and ignore obscure rankings."Nobody is ignoring the head-to-head results, it's you who seems to
be ignoring the fact that seasons aren't judged by only examining 1/12th of
the season.The "obscure rankings" you so casually dismiss
are produced by the exact same folks who produce the strength of schedule
rankings that you so frequently cite.If you're not going to
accept the validity of Sagarin's team rankings, then stop using
Sagarin's SOS rankings to prove that U played a tougher schedule.BYU played FIVE Top 25 teams in 2012. Utah only played TWO.PROOF
that BYU played a tougher schedule and still finished with a better record than
Oviously, we can agree to disagree.Who was better at the end of the
season? Probably the team with the higher ranking, but that's an
opinion.Who was better the day they played? The team that won the game!
That's a FACT, not an opinion. It is an iteresting question though,
and I do see both sides of it. Personally, I would rather be ranked higher and
win the head to head game. So was BYU beater in 2011 when they lost 54-10? No
way, No how! The only true way to determine who's better at season's
end is to play each other. It's the same reason they need a playoff. No
other champion is determined by a popular vote. Every other champion is
determined in a playoff format. Were the Baltimore Ravens the best team in the
NFL last year? It doens't matter what any poll or opinion says; they were
crowned World Champs! See the difference?
Spokane UteA playoff is the best way of determining a national
champion, but it needs to include all legitimate contenders. A four-team play
simply isn't enough. 16 teams would be best, but the most likely scenario
will be an 8-team playoff, hopefully starting by 2016.As far as
rankings and which teams are better, almost everyone agrees that final rankings
are the only rankings that count. It doesn't matter whether a team begins
the season ranked #1 or unranked, the only ranking that counts is the final
ranking.As far as better team, head-to-head should be the first
factor, but not the only factor. Upsets happen. Better teams sometimes lose to
lesser teams.Regardless, the same standard applies to all teams.
Each team is judged by the outcome of every game. Better teams are ranked higher
at the end of the season. A playoff will only determine the champion. The order
of finish for every other team will still be determined by the final polls.
UfanFor the most part, I totally agree. I would settle for an 8 team
playoff. Rankings don't always paint an accurate picture though. When
Tennessee won the National Championship, the first year of the BCS, they were
the only undefeated team and beat FSU in the championship. The sagarin rankings
didn't have them #1. Look at the current Saragin basketball rankings. Both
Syracuse and Arizona have identical records (22-4). Ariaona has played a tougher
schedule (#27) then Syracuse (#49). Yet Syracuse is ranked hieger (#8), the
Arizona (#27). How is that possible?. Question, in 2011, Utah beat BYU 54-10,
yet finished ranked slightly lower. Do you honestly believe BYU had a better
Spokane UteHere's an example of why using a snap-shot view of
one game to determine the better team doesn't work:Oct 20, 2001
- Colorado is DESTROYED at Texas 7-41.Which team is better?
Obviously Texas. But, wait.Dec 1, 2001 - Colorado BEATS Texas 39-37
in the Big 12 Championship game.Current records: Colorado(10-2);
Texas(10-2)Now which team is better? Colorado has a very good
argument that they're better, since they're tied head-to-head and the
Buffaloes won the conference championship.Bowl results:Oregon DESTROYS Colorado in the Fiesta Bowl 16-38.Texas beats Washington
in the Holiday Bowl 47-43.Now which team is better?Even
though the two teams split their head-to-head games and Colorado won the
conference championship, the final poll results provide the final answer:#5/#5 Texas(11-2)#9/#9 Colorado(10-3)Which team would
have been ranked higher if the bowl results were reversed?
Spokane Ute"Question, in 2011, Utah beat BYU 54-10, yet finished
ranked slightly lower. Do you honestly believe BYU had a better team?"Yes!1stThe teams were more evenly matched than
the final score might indicate. Even after Heaps' fumble into his own
end-zone on BYU's first possession gave Utah its first TD, BYU lead 10-7
until the final minute of the 1st half when Utah scored to take a narrow 14-10
halftime lead.Six 2nd-half turnovers, many unforced, starting with a
fumbled kickoff at BYU's 3-yd line, gave Utah some easy scores, killed
every BYU drive, and made the final score so lopsided. Final stats show that the
game was much more competitive.1st DownsBYU 20Utah 20Total YardsBYU 354Utah 481------2ndUtah lost at home to 10-loss ColoradoBYU's only
other losses were at Texas(16-17) and at TCU(28-38)------3rdBYU finished with a better record, beat a better bowl opponent,
and finished higher in the polls and Sagarin.Coaches/AP/SagarinBYU(10-3) #25/#26/#34 Utah(8-5) unranked/#39 (Utah didn't
receive any votes in either poll)
UfanTeam A finishes ranked #39 with a schedule strength of #49Team B finishes ranked #34 with a schedule strength of #90Team A
beat's Team B 54-10, on the road. Not 14-10, 54-10! They didn't get
beat, they got smashed!Team B is better than Team A? Yeah, right.
You may have convinced your self, but there is no way in the world you will
convince me. Next up, you are going to tell me how the 2008-2009 BYU team was
better. Unbelieveable!The subject has been beaten into the ground;
have a good day!
Spokane UteYou're ignoring the fact that the very SOS rankings
you're quoting were compiled from adding up the individual rankings of each
of the teams that BYU and Utah played.In other words, why are you
citing Sagarin's SOS rankings as givens, but questioning Sagarin's
team rankings, which are actually much more significant?You're
also ignoring the fact that the AP and Coaches polls also had BYU ranked much
higher than Utah - BYU #25/#26, Utah no votes in either poll.From a
national perspective, BYU was considered a better team than Utah in both 2011
and 2012.On the bright side, Utah fans can brag about having a
resounding win against a Top 25 opponent in 2011.
@Spokane Ute"You may have convinced your self, but there is no
way in the world you will convince me."That's alright. BYU
convinced the only ones who really matter, the poll voters and the ranking
services.It's a matter of record at this point. Whenever fans peruse the list of teams that finished the 2011 season ranked in
the Top 25, they'll see that BYU was good enough to be included on the
list, and Utah wasn't. And as everyone knows, it's better to be
ranked, than not.