Some day, when I'm old and gray, my grandsons will enjoy their hikes, their
Klondike Derbies, and their Philmont weeks without giving a passing thought to
which scouts and/o leaders are gay and which are straight. They will look at me
with puzzlement as I tell them that a lot of bigoted . . oops, I mean
"righteous" LDS folk threw a conniption when it became apparent the BSA
was going to stop excluding people because of sexual orientation. They'll
wonder why people back in grandpa's day were so mixed up. I'll tell
them "I have no idea" and be glad I was ahead of the curve.If (when) this rule-change passes, it will become the new normal and the
self-righteous bigots will eventually die off and be forgotten. I imagine if the
internet were available back in the 70's when the priesthood was extended
to all worthy males, the same chords would have been struck, and the same
scriptural rationale would have been used to claim the sky was falling.
You're losing and will continue to lose.
If Scouts allow gay people, then I'm resigning my calling as a scoutmaster.
The BSA has a right to their choices and no public official or hypocrite should
bully them into changing it.
Erin Burnett (CNN) earlier this week stated that 15% of all BSA memberships are
tied to the LDS faith (largest of any "demographic" block). Isn't interesting that the BSA has decided to delay their decision?
I've said it before and I'll say it again...why does sexuality come up
in the first place. I am heterosexual but I don't run around telling people
I am intimate with women. Why must a person even talk about their sexual
orientation? Just keep private things private. A gay scout leader is not any
more likely to hurt a young man than a straight leader. Gay does not equal
pedophile. My children have had straight mentors and gay mentors...some were
great, some not so much. None hurt my children and I never felt like I needed to
know who they shared their bed with.
Ya know what, folks.While you're all so worried about
"gays", you're not paying attention to your own families or
what's really going on.Have any of you read about the young
"good church boy" from Provo, who has been arrested for sexual abuse of
15 youngsters? Girls, boys, an infant. At a Boy Scout camp, at the Inn across
the street from the Manti Temple, on a trip to Southern Utah. A gigantic
predator in your midst!He is not gay. He is a pedophile, a
predator to ANY child.Just MAYBE you should start worrying about
your own children? One parent, when their two girls told them that Butcher
had abused them, just told him not to do it again! Wow!AGAIN:
learn about pedophiles and protect your children.
From the article--Jay L. Lenrow, the former national chairman of the Jewish
Committee on Scouting, told the Wall Street Journal continuing the ban violates
the Scouts' pluralistic mission. Continuing the ban is "absolutely
allowing the teachings of certain religious groups to trump the teachings of
other religious groups," he said. "These are not our principles."Well, Jay, by the same token, DIScontinuing the ban is "absolutely
allowing the teachings of certain religious groups to trump the teachings of
other religious groups" And your point is? No matter how your slice it,
somebody's principles are going to be ignored, eh?
I think that giving the process more time makes sense. However, I also believe
that the BSA proposal is fundamentally the correct choice. Allowing individual
units to make their own choice on this matter is a good compromise. The Boy
Scouts of America is such a large and perceived public organization that it
needs to be as inclusive as possible. Barring a significant portion of the
population damages the BSA's reputation of fairness and non-discrimination.
I hope the Church supports this proposal. It has come a long way in its effort
to build bridges with the gay community. It does not need to give them another
reason to criticize the church.
As a scouter for nearly 30 years, I had a bishop tell me once that the day would
come when the church would be forced to drop the BSA as its activity arm for
young men because they would eventually adopt a gay-inclusive policy. I would prefer that the church design its own program for young men because
scouting in the LDS Church doesn't function the way it's supposed to
in the real world. Non-church sponsored troops are sponsored and subsidized by
companies who claim the donation as a charitable contribution. Church sponsored
troops, on the other hand, are forced to earn their own money through
fund-raising, which takes time away from the pursuit of merit badges and
instills resentment in ward members who are constantly being asked to buy cookie
dough, pizzas, or flag displays.The "Friends of Scouting"
drive is a joke because the money doesn't go to help the boys at all, but
rather, it funds the obscene six-figure salaries of the big shots at corporate
headquarters while the real leaders volunteer their time. It's time for the
church to part ways with the BSA.
Date: Mon, 1911-07-31 This date celebrates the founding of
America’s first "Negro Boy Scout" troop in 1911. Opposition
was encountered immediately.Finally in 1971, after 53 years of being
"seperate but equal" - The BSA at the national level desegregated the
Boy Scouts.42 years later, the "negroes" didn't destroy
Scouting as was thought.I suspect the same bridge is about to be
Scoting is put to the test by the forces in the Gay community. Sustaining
members are put to the test also by withholding moderate support with the threat
of gay intrusion, as an excuse for not giving. There is only the threat by the
active gay forces and this is evil on their part. I know if they get into scout
leadership positions it will undermine the Scout Oath.In the
meantime I am giving all the encouragement to my special needs scouts as a
scoutmaster in helping two or three of them to finish their Eagle Scout Badges.
Right now, there is nothing else out there which can replace the BSA with LDS
scouts. Becoming an Eagle Scout is still a lofty goal for my special needs
friends, and for the pure in heart, so don't throw cold water on such a
good thing folks while the forces of evel are at work to kill it.
I am sure that this change will happen at some point. I do think it will make
the scouting program stronger, smaller but stronger. Instead of being scouts out
of duty, it will become something done out of want. The 6 and 7 figure salaries
that the upper leaders get will disappear and that also will be a good thing.
When scouts are done because of a love of what it is, it becomes a great thing
for the boys. Right now at least in the LDS church it becomes more of a drudgery
and misses the mark of its true potential.
The real reason for the delay, the "Friends of Scouting" fund drive, it
starts now and ends in April, gosh I guess they saw the loss of $ more imprtant
than the Gay issues. I will not be donating this year until after they say what
their position is. Sorry Bishop.
y71; I love your comment, it gave me a great laugh, but the drive is in
It is much easier to deal with having a gay Scout in a troop than it would be in
allowing gay Scoutmasters, as most Scouts are younger than 16 and would not know
what it means to be "morally straight."I pose a question to
anyone who thinks having gay Scout leaders is acceptable. Suppose the scenario
is changed slightly --> Your 12 year-old daughter's Girl Scout troop
has decided to change its leadership and will now have two "straight"
men in charge. Would you allow your daughter to go camping for the weekend with
only male supervision?I dare say the number of parents favoring this
scenario would be a round number -- zero.
I think this is a wise choice. Organizational change is difficult. It is even
more difficulty when it involves core beliefs. While I think that there is
value in the BSA being more inclusive, sponsoring organizations need time to
discuss and plan for change should that be the decision. Legal implications of
a potential change need to be explored as do the possible responses of parents
and boys. To rush into such a change or no change is to assure a greater number
of problems than needs be. A three month exploration process seems both
reasonable and wise.
I predict that the quantity of NEW Eagle Scouts in UT will decrease
significantly in the next 2 years. The LDS church has already started to push
away from the scouting program as signified by the Duty To God requirements
released several years ago. This will be the straw that broke camels back. What
the church does to replace it will be interesting, but I am pretty sure the
discussions related to it have been going on at the highest levels of the church
for several years at least.
As a 30 year veteran scout/scouter, Eagle Scout, Silver Beaver, Wood Badge
trained and having been to LDS week at Philmont twice in recent years, I am not
ready to say I think the LDS Church will react one way or another to any
decision yet to be made on this issue. I am fully confident any decision for
the LDS Church's affiliation will be weighed heavily and guided by
inspiration. I will choose to follow one I esteem to be a Prophet of God.I am however tremendously disappointed in those who seem to be overly
anxious for the Church to disassociate with the BSA. Some perhaps begrudge
requests to give money in support, some will not serve, others have served or
are serving but refuse to become trained and/or to know and follow the
prescribed programs as outlined. Those who are trained, who know and follow the
programs know of the tremendous value Scouting has been to the Church. Anyone
who has heard President Monson talk of Scouting knows the church is in it for
the Aaronic Priesthood development of our young men and for all boys and young
men regardless of their faith.
The Boy Scouts of America need to stand tall and state clearly that homosexuals
will not be permitted in Scouting under any circumstance. How hard is it to
live up to the principles upon which Scouting and normal people abide by? They
also need to remove those from the Scouting Board of Directors who disagree with
this position. Time to take a clear unambiguous stand!
Honest, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.How is this a complex decision?
The Boy Scouts I grew with would have given a quick thumbs down.Let
the gays start their own program.
There is more to morally straight than sexual orientation just as there is more
to living a clean life than basic hygiene. Both are not exclusive of each other.
Too often well meaning adults and young men in Scouting parse and parcel the
Scout Oath and Scout Law to fit a particular world view. We must remember that
both work together to produce the type of young men that will make a difference
in the lives of others. We must also remember that there are millions of young
men who are not Eagle Scouts or Boy Scouts that do great things. Membership or a
patch do not make great young men it is the values, principles, and dedication
that make great young men. The Boy Scouts are not for everyone and National
would do well to remember that. No organization can be all things to all people
or their ideological philosophies. National would also do well to remember that
it is the opinion of registered, active members that matters most. Outside
groups may mean well but they have no vested interest in the program. Membership
should be determined by members only.
@Chris B."However, I'll add that its is impossible to be an
active homosexual and morally straight."Which is pretty
irrelevant when talking about kids at scout camps. @patriot"Is it as far as the LDS church is concerned....and the catholic church
...and every other church that sponsors BSA."The LDS church has
been quite clear that having same-sex attractions is not a sin, only acting on
it. Merely being a homosexual is not a sin by LDS standards and thus I see no
reason why the LDS church wouldn't be okay with letting chaste homosexuals
in the Boy Scouts since that's exactly what they call for in their own
faith, same as for chaste heterosexuals. Other churches (the southern baptists
definitely) disagree on the matter.
@ChrisB 1:30You wrote: "However, I'll add that its is impossible
to be an active homosexual and morally straight. Its just not what nature
intended".I have no idea what you mean by that. You see.... I am
homosexual 24/7 I can be praying, working, reading, resting, sleeping, I can be
celibate, but I'm still homosexual and active, until I die.You
consider your self and others "morally straight" if you abstain from
vices and I assume abstain from sex until you marry. Actually, I can agree with
that definition. The exception that validate the rule would be that gay men and
women should abstain from vices and be celibate until they find the companion
with whom they would share the rest of their lives. Unless, of course you
already live in a state that allows SSM.But this is more than a
semantic's game. This is an issue of fairness and equality. Besides, if you
find that the Boy Scouts are a force for good, shouldn't all kids
participate, especially those who are at risk?
My daughter is friends with a boy at her school who is gay. When I first heard
about him, my daughter told me her friends made fun of him. At the time I told
her again what I have always told her, to go out of her way to befriend him and
she did. She really likes him for a friend. He comes often to our house as her
friend. I don't know if he would want to join scouts, but I think it would
be great if he did. It would be a good experience for him assuming the boys
treated him as they ought.I have greater reservations about the
leaders though. I do believe most gay leaders would do the right thing, but I
also know temptation is temptation. Boy scouts are at the age where many have
already experienced puberty so they are young men, not children. As such gay men
would be attracted to them which would add a factor of risk.
Being morally straight is not just "opposite of gay". It means that you
will stick to your moral principles even if it becomes fashionable to abandon
them. "Everyone is doing it!", "No one will know!", or "We
will lose money if we don't!" are not valid reasons for doing something
immoral. Caving into political correctness or changing policy because a bunch of
radical protesters are picketing your headquarters aren't valid reasons
either.Times change and moral values can shift, so not much is cast
in stone these days, but is nothing sacred anymore?Just like my
daughter will not be camping with men, my sons will not be doing that with guys
who openly announce their sexual attraction to them. If that means none of my
son's earn their Eagle Scout Award, then so be it.
@andyjaggyI could not agree with your post more. I agree with you
100%. Scouts is a racket anyway, when the main leader over all scouts is
sitting in Texas bringing down $2MM plus a year and the Utah head guy bringing
down over $1MM a year, in a donation driven program. It is just wrong. The
reason the SLC council wants to delay the vote is they are scrambling for ways
to save their jobs. When and if the church does pull out, they will not need as
many scout staff here. It's a racket and I have never supported scouts
either way, gay or straight.
Watch what happens at the April general conference. The Church could put
together a youth program that would make BSA look pathetic.
Re: "You do realize the phrase morally straight is not a reference to
sexuality right?""Morally straight" IS a reference to
sexuality. And to honesty. And decency. And to integrity and consistency with
one's values. The oath requires scouts to do their duty to God, as well.
Those principles have formed the bedrock of the scouting movement since its
inception.The fact that the National Board even contemplates
destroying that foundation, and is now insisting it needs several months to
think about it, is sending a clear message to the real people that have quietly
and proudly staffed and funded scouting for years.And, it's a
message I suspect the National Board will quickly begin to feel in the wallet.
Fine, I might as well delay my donation for the result. Very simple. My simple
answer here, just say NO.
@atl134"You do realize the phrase morally straight is not a reference
to sexuality right?"Morallity includes sexual behavior. So, by
all means don't interpret the term "straight" as sexual
orientation. It doesn't change the fact that "morally straight"
includes sexual purity, and because the BSA is a God based organization, and
because 70% of it's members belong to religious organization, we can define
sexual purity as found in scripture (and for those who are LDS, as defined by
modern prophets).So, based on the principles BSA has stood for and taught
for the last 100+ years, "morally straight" is in fact a reference to
sexuallity and sexual behavior.
re:atl134Is it as far as the LDS church is concerned....and the
catholic church ...and every other church that sponsors BSA. Being
'mortally straight' to a godless, atheistic liberal society might
mean one thing but to a Christian being morally straight DOES imply New
Testament morality as taught by The Savior which has as its very core sexual
purity. The Scouts can say what ever they want ...they are free to choose ...
but the sponsors of scouting don't have to accept their
interpretation...and they won't if the Scouts allow gays as scout masters.
Go Big Blue!!! said, "In the wise words of Geddy Lee "If you choose not
to decide you still have made a choice"." - Actually, Geddy
Lee just sang the words. Neil Peart wrote them (and played the drums).
Nevertheless, still a true and apropos comment.
@alt,While I agree with the scout oath including "morally
straigth" was created, it is unlikely those who founded Scouting could
foresee the fall or morals such that acceptance of homosexuality ever crossed
their minds.However, I'll add that its is impossible to be an
active homosexual and morally straight. Its just not what nature intended.
The Scout Oath specifically states that a scout is "morally straight".
Are they going to change the Oath also? Please know that my donations to
Friends of Scouting and other Scout fundraisers will be eliminated if gay scouts
are allowed. On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to
God and my countryand to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at
all times;To keep myself physically strong,mentally awake, and
@patriot"How hard is it to decide whether you want to keep the
"morally straight" "You do realize the phrase morally
straight is not a reference to sexuality right?
Remember two of the National Board Members are from the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints. This will give the Church of Jesus Christ time to
determine what their reaction will be. If the LDS leaves scouting which for
many is a fore gone conclusion then the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists
and many other evangletical congregations will follow suit. That will spell the
end of the Boy Scouts of America. Especially since most of the funding for the
scouts comes from this 70% of scouts in this nation.As has been
stated members with same-sex attraction have already been members of scouts and
earned Eagle and been leaders. This change is not about them but about those
who are actually practicing homosexuality which is counted as immoral and a
grievous sin before our Heavenly Father. As some lawyers have stated courts
will be inundated with lawsuits forcing many of these organizations to fold or
capitualate to the general feelings of society. If scouts continue to stand for
morality or whether they cross the line to immorality where determine whether
scouting survives in the United States.
Why do we have to bring gay to everything? What's wrong with being just
scout period! When the kids get home they can do whatever they want.
re:Liberal TedYou are 100% correct. BSA has the right to make their
decision - so why don't they just DO IT ALREADY???? How hard is it to
decide whether you want to keep the "morally straight" oath? I
personally think they already know what they are going to do - allow gays- and
they are trying to find some monetary way to survive after the decision. Maybe
Obama will now provide a friends of scouting tax at the federal level.
You know if it takes you 4 months to decide between right and wrong it is
probably time to cut ties with BSA from the LDS Church's standpoint. What
is there to consider over this 4 month period?? Is BSA hoping to convince the
LDS church to stick with them along with their money contributions? Not gonna
happen. Is BSA trying to find some fall back after the LDS church dumps them? I
am not impressed. Being morally straight doesn't take 4 months to figure
out. Either you are or you aren't and I suspect BSA is caving to PC and
deciding that sticking to Christian ideals isn't what they want going
forward. I say fine... go ahead and make that decision but it certainly
doesn't take 4 months to do it. Time for the Church to DUMP BSA and do
their own thing with the young men of the Church. I for one will NOT contribute
or serve anymore with anything with regards to BSA regardless. How
Either way the Boy Scouts is a private organization and has the right to make
the rules for membership.
Hey Go Big Blue, although Geddy Lee sings that song Neal Pert (the drummer)
actually penned it. Great song by the way.
There always have been gays in the Boy Scouts and their leaders. What type of
change are you afraid will take place when they are "officially"
accepted?We know how crazy these gay guys get when they together.
I'm sure they will re-decorate the tents and for sure they will attempt to
change those boring uniforms. The ned is near, the end is near.LOL
In the wise words of Geddy Lee "If you choose not to decide you still have
made a choice".
I hope they choose to change their policy, not necessarily because I agree
either way, but because then the church will get out of scouting and we can have
a better and more focused program for the young men.
I support this change and look forward to the day when we allow gay youth to
participate, but if delaying the decision a few months helps more people get
used to the idea then I'm ok with it. There are a lot of people threatening
to hold their sons and out of the program over this and some churches
threatening to disband their troops if this change goes through. I think this
change is inevitable, but I also want to see the scouting family stay together
as we move forward.
Newsflash - Man delays decision on whether to continue donating to Friends of
Sadly we see from stories like Sandusky how much damage one person can do. We need to do all we can(and even then admittedly we can't be 100%
positive) that we only surround our Scouts by good examples and by morally
straight(as the Scout oath says) people.
Conveniently postponing the decision until this year's Friends of Scouting
drive has been completed.