Proposing opening leadership positions to men with expressed same gender
attraction in a morally straight young male exclusive organization flies in the
face of logic. It's just not a wise thing to do. Parents are well advised
to consider the potential for regrettable consequences. Overnight campouts and
such. Safety must be the overriding consideration.
I agree. I have already pulled my annual contributions as I felt they lost their
way several years ago.
"Proposing opening leadership positions to men with expressed same gender
attraction in a morally straight young male exclusive organization flies in the
face of logic. "Are you suggesting that heterosexual women
should not be leaders in a boy scout troop either?Or heterosexual
males working with the girl scouts?Time and time again, people seem
to confuse same sex attraction with pedophilia. This is not supported by
Kicking out Scouts who are coming to grips with who they are is wrong. It sends
exactly the wrong message to them-- that who they are is bad, no matter their
faith, no matter their behavior, that society has a point in stigmatizing and
harming them.I first became aware that I was gay around age 10, and
by age 14, I was able to write in my journal "I am a homosexual."That that honesty and self-recognition would be grounds for being kicked
out of an organization designed to instill moral values, including honesty and
personal integrity, simply astounds me.NO 14 year old should be
sexually active, and that isn't what this debate is about. It's about
honesty-- that sexual orientation simply is. It isn't chosen and, with few
exceptions, seems pretty immutable (it certainly was in my case, and I was
exceptionally motivated NOT to be gay).It's time to stop
sending mixed signals to young gay people. Are they accepted and loved for who
they are or not?
The BAA has to make a decision. Do you want Intel's money or do you want
tostand by your principles and keep the rank and file. If they pass this,
Friends of Scouting will drop like a rock and many of us who have volunteered
hundreds of hours will redirect our efforts to other causes. Part of the
attraction of the BSA is that they have stuck by their principles even whendoing
so is hard. If they make the change, they are telling every scout that it is ok
to cave when you feel the heat.
Changing this policy would be a grave error.
Religious organizations will always have the legal right to discriminate in
order to promote and remain true to their religious beliefs and protect freedom
of religion that is so important to our society. And that will always be seen
as acceptable by society. And while civic organizations, like BSA, also have a
legal right to discriminate, such discrimination increasingly is becoming
unacceptable to society. BSA will need to decide whether it wants to be a civic
organization that supports and accommodates all varieties of religious belief,
including non-belief, or if it wants to be a civic organization that is
supported largely by specific religious organizations and supports and upholds
the values and beliefs of those organizations --we have reached that fork in the
road in which a decision has to be made. Given that choice, seems as obvious to
me what choice they should and will make.
If they pass this, I will not give one more can to food drives--I will take it
to the bank myself, and I will never donate a single dollar more to the Boy
Joe Blow, do some research on gay men. Facts are stubborn. How many
'partners' do they on average have during their lifetime? You can
start there. Not even close to heterosexual males or females. Here's what I hope happens, Joe Blow. The BSA is cowardly and will make
a non-decision other than letting local councils decide. Membership will drop
like a rock. Those left standing will allow gay scoutmasters. Cases involving
gay scoutmasters will hit the legal system. Parents will sue the BSA for
allowing gay scoutmasters to the tune of million$. It will put the BSA out of
business and traditional scouters will find out who the board of directors are
and will boycott their businesses.BTW, this isn't about gay
rights, the gays want to put the BSA out of business. Period. Payback for what
they consider bias against their lifestyle. They could care less about any
boys. IT's all payback and the board of directors apparently aren't
smart enough to figure out the 'end game'.
Now the President has put his political prowess into the mix, it will be
interesting to see what the Boy Scouts of America do with his unwavering hand as
with a lot of other things this President has done. I am sure religious
organizations have loved what he has done for abortion and for contraception
with his benevolent acts of kindness for the whole world. We will
endure but trials of life have never been easy when it comes to morality of
people and places.
"Proposing opening leadership positions to men with expressed same gender
attraction in a morally straight young male exclusive organization flies in the
face of logic."--JOnathan Eddy, first post on this string.According to the Boy Scout Handbook, Morally Straight means: To be a person of
strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You
should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and
actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice
as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.I
dont think "morally straight" has anything to do with sexual orientation
according to the Boy Scout Manual. But it does says "faithful in your
religious beliefs." Even the Boy Scouts seem to recognize that we all
don't have the same religious beliefs. But if this flies against your
religious beliefs, by all means, leave the Boy Scouts. Otherwise, you can still
run your scout org. the way you've always done it.
Nationally, enrollment in scouts is down double digits in the last few years and
their homophobic position was cited by their own leaders as one of the main
reasons. We would not let our son join the scouts because of the BSA's
position as we felt it was anti-Christan and exclusive of the norms of greater
society. Most major coporations changed their position years ago and even offer
benefits to same sex couples. The BSA is only responding to the realities of
our society as we have progressed and become more embracing of diversity.
Christ would welcome it.
Delay the vote???? Why? Let's vote now!Uphold the Scout
Oath!!! Raise the Title of Liberty. The time is at hand.
We have become a nation of whining victims.
is this what you want for the future of BSA? the real question i want you BSA
to ask and answer for the future of BSA is: are you going to compromise for
political gain and finacial assistance from other parties and please man or are
you going to take a stand in these dark days and stand for God and please Him
and rely on His sovereignty to meet all the needs for BSA? i pray to God for
you BSA that you will do what is right not in the sight of man but in the sight
of God and what He says about making compromises against His Law, Precepts and
Statutes. -- grace to you and peace from God our Father and
the Lord Jesus Christ
I'm not sure why the need for a delay on deciding how to deal with this
issue. It's not as if no one has ever given it any thought or formulated a
policy on the matter.
I wouldn't let my boys go on campouts if the leaders were women, it
provides an environment where something inappropriate could happen. Similarly,
I would not allow my boys to go on a campout where a homosexual man is going to
be the leader. If this goes through, it is time for the LDS church to drop
scouting. Long overdue. I get sick of contributing to the friends of scouting
when the district executives make six figure incomes.
Why do people always feel they have to talk for God. If God exists, he/she/it
will have the final say, according to most beliefs. And, according to most
beliefs, if this were to pass, it would be because of God, not in spite of God.
Unless most of you only think God makes the decisions you deem are the correct
There is indeed wisdom in carefully and without undue haste consider any propsed
change. Why should a stampeded demand to change the rules and regulation of any
organization be tolerated without thoughtful and meaningful consideration? One
may wisely wait to hear what President Monson and other BSA officials have to
say concerning this matter.
Voting to allow homosexuals to participate in any aspect of Scouting is the
biggest mistake that the Boy Scouts of America could make, and bowing to
"pressure" from two board members is pathetic. The two board members of
B.S.A. who are pushing this "agenda" should be removed from the Scouting
Board of Directors and any funds their companies have donated returned. There
are enough decent people and companies in this country to more than make up for
the lost funding. The Boy Scouts should never have allowed this to become an
issue, and it they take a firm stand now, they will send the right message.
The Scouts were originally a non-sectarian group for ALL families, not just
Christian conservatives. The Scouts elsewhere (UK, Canada, France, Mexico, etc.)
do NOT discriminate.We can each believe that the other is immoral. I
believe that people who drive giant gas-guzzling SUV’s are immoral. But I
don’t have any desire to keep them or their kids out of the Scouts. We are a two-dad family and we have no objection to our kids hanging
with Mormon or Baptist parents or their kids. If we meet at the Jamboree after
the ban is gone, please introduce yourselves. You’ll see that this two-dad
family is not terribly different from your own. Baden Powell himself
defined the universal spirit of Scouting. In his words:"Buddha
has said: 'There is only one way of driving out Hate in the world and that
is by bringing in Love.' Scouting's aim is to produce healthy, happy,
helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self
interest, personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it
a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity."
It would seem the BSA National Board has the cart before the horse.They are apparently prepared to vote to change the policy on membership when
prior consideration of a different issue seems appropriate.Before
the BSA can legitimately change its membership policy it should first consider
changing/repealing the Scout Oath from:On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.To:On my honor I
will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the
Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself
physically strong, mentally awake, and morally confused.The
gay community has long used the word straight to refer to others. The whole gay
rights movement is all about societal approval of unstraight behavior. The lawyers are right. Changing the national policy will eventually allow
courts to declare local councils that maintain the ban to be at variance with
statutes/ordinances governing discrimination.
We allow gay and lesbians full membership and fellowship in the LDS church.So, shouldn't we show that same level standard with our affiliation
with the Boy Scouts?
Gay activists are the bullies here! The irony of all this is watching them
discriminate and bully anyone of faith while claiming victimization by the very
people who believe in choice. If they could just learn to live with their
decisions, whether they believe its by choice or not, they would suffer like
everybody else in society that has burdens and crosses to bear, but don't
spend their whole lives announcing to the world how discriminated and burdened
they feel. Grow up! For the record, let their be no mistake, this isn't
about the Boy Scouts or corporate America; its about elimination from any
societal institution the belief in God, which, for them, must also be
eliminated. God is compassionate and merciful, but He won't be mocked.
It's time to extricate the scouting movement from religion.
"Facts are stubborn. How many 'partners' do they on average have
during their lifetime?"In light of the current discussion,
wouldn't it be more relevant to determine how many sexually abuse younger
boys? Just saying...And what you describe in your post. Is this
sincerely what you "hope happens"?Pretty sad, I must say.
For all of my LDS friends and fellow Scouters can you not see the parallel here?
The LDS church has "softened" its stand on homosexuality and this will
spill over into Scouting as well. If the vote to allow homosexuals doesn't
happen this year, it will happen in years to follow. The LDS church will come
out with an official endorsement of Scouting and life will move on. To the
pedophile issue. As long as "two-deep" leadership principals are
followed, young men should still be safe.
' I am sure religious organizations have loved what he (President Obama)
has done for abortion and for contraception with his benevolent acts of kindness
for the whole world.' - JWB Title: 'After 40
years, Roe v. Wade's legacy is deep divide across U.S.' - By David
Crary - 01/21/2013 By the Deseret news. So, President
Obama was elected in 2008. Abortion has been legal in America since
1973. So please, do not 'blame Obama' for abortion. It makes you look uninformed.
Question to my fellow LDS: If a gay person can be a member of the Church and
hold a temple recommend, then why can't a gay boy be a Scout? Be careful
and thoughtful with your answer.
Safety must be the overriding consideration. - Jonathan Eddy
'Boy Scout Files Give Glimpse Into 20 Years of Abuse' - By KIRK
JOHNSON - NY Times - 10/18/12 'Officials with the Boy Scouts
fought in the courts for years to prevent the release of the documents —
more than 15,000 pages detailing accusations of abuse against 1,247 scout
leaders between 1965 and 1985, with thousands of victims involved...' 1200 cases of child abuse reported in the BSA. Zero gays
allowed in the BSA. If safety is your main concern then why, are you
concerned with a group that cannot even join? When 1200 cases of a
abuse are reported WITHOUT them? Dear Deseret News staff. You
allowed this comment on other stories. Choose a standard.
@xscribe"Why do people always feel they have to talk for God. If
God exists........."Your last post is simply false or a lack of
knowledge on the subject of God and or religion on your part. We are not
robots, nor are we controlled in any way. There is a freedom to make your own
choice To whatever that decision may be, it results in a consequence or maybe a
reward. Are there better paths than others? Absolutely!! Can you rebound from
a bad choice or that consequence? Absolutely! To say that the final choice is
God's and to say if it pass's it is because of God to believers, and
too imply to many that God is only the answer of good choices is completely
regurgitated to spark argument. I would think that the BSA is not on God's
priority list and he is leaving this up to the people. What we do from there
and how we and the BSA respond is completely up to us as well. Just a guess,
but come on. Don't look for the opportunity to start fire, look for ways
to control one set or put it out.
@Open Minded MormonOnly if they are not actively pursuing their
selected behavior. They have to be a non-practicing gay to hold callings.@bandersenVery well said!@HutteriteI
rarely ever agree with anything you say, but your last post is dead on accurate.
It should be taken out of religion.If the BSA wants to imply
religion, support God and religion, that is fine. But get scouts away from
religious organizations that run the troops, packs, etc.
Satan has long desired to defeat the BSA. Perhaps the time has come.
Utahbruin: Maybe you need to go back through and read all the posts and see how
often God is mentioned. And I will go out on a limb right now and say that
there will be posters, if this does not pass, that say it was because of God!
People thought God played a role in the Super Bowl, for crying out loud!
BSA should stick to their principles the bullying by the left wing press
especially the Washington Post and major corporate sponsors to cave is enormous
but don't cave. The Scout Moto and Scout Oath and the whole scouting
moovement will be jeopardized and cultural bullies will have scored another
triumph. Having served for decades in scouting I'm alarmed at how quickly
morality and decency has evaporated but until now BSA was a pilar of integrity.
@PGVIkingDadA gay person can be a member and hold a temple
recommend. A practicing gay person can be a member of the church but cannot
hold a TR. A gay boy can be a Scout, even still today before the vote. Its a
gay leader who is not permitted. I assume, why? Well, MY answer. Scouts is
affiliated with many religions, as stated in the article. Many, not just LDS
wards and stakes. Scouts was founded on certain principals. One of them being
belief and faith in God and the standards set by religions. Many religions do
not agree with gay practices, I will say me included. I believe it is a choice,
not something you are born with. However, since churches do not agree with it,
I think they fear the idea of it being pushed on the boys. Is this true, does
it happen, I don't know. But I understand the fear. Just as you
don't want your kids hanging out with those who do drugs, you don't
want them to involved with gays. It is what is percieved as wrong by some that
they choose to stay away from. Just my thoughts.
Pagan,"1200 cases of child abuse reported in the BSA. Zero gays allowed in the BSA."And yet some people hide their
orientation and get into the Boy Scouts anyways. The very definition of a
heterosexual precludes them from ever abusing a Boy Scout.Again, by
definition of nature, only a homosexual(or bisexual) is capable of abusing a boy
scout. Heterosexual men are only attracted to women.Yes, some have
lied by hiding their orientation.And it is these cases we are trying
to prevenet.Its all about scout safety. That ia paramount.
To PGViking Dad and Open minded Mormon:You forgot(or at least failed
to mention one big point). People who have homosexual feels yet dont ACT on
those feelings are welcome with open arms in the church. Gays who are actively
dating members of the same sex are NOT open to all rights that other Mormons
have. No, they can't enter the temple. No, they can't hold any
calling they could otherwsie. No, they can't hold a temple recommend. Now, if the policy you are suggesting the Boy Scouts implement is
similar then perhaps you have a point. But if you're propsoing the Boy
Scouts welcome "acting" homosexuals, then no you couldnt be more wrong
comparing your proposed plan to the current church structure. Sorry.
PGVikingDad -Here is my thoughtful response to your question to
which I affix my name, noticing as I do, that you did not affix yours to your
thoughtful question:You are partially right in posing your question
and partially wrong: A person who claims same-sex attraction is allowed full
fellowship in the Church and can receive a temple recommend. But such a person
who acts on those attractions can be denied both a temple recommend and full
fellowship. Under current national Scout policy a person in either
category is prohibited from serving as a scout leader or from being a Scout.To make the Scout policy aligned with the LDS policy, the BSA would have
to say: It's okay to believe you are gay, but if you act out you are not
able to participate. No person with same sex attraction should be
called to serve as a youth leader for those of the same sex. Unlike some troops
of the BSA, LDS sponsoring organizations do not call women to lead Boy Scouts.
Nor do we call men to serve as youth leaders in the Young Women's
organization. We have good reasons for so doing.
UtahBruinSaratoga Springs, UTTed H.Midvale, UTTo
PGViking Dad and Open minded Mormon:You forgot(or at least failed to
mention one big point). ==========I did not forget, nor
did I fail to mention it.I said, and I quote"...same level standard
..."here it is again:Open Minded MormonEverett, 00We allow gay and lesbians full membership and fellowship in
the LDS church.So, shouldn't we show that same level standard
with our affiliation with the Boy Scouts?9:56 a.m. Feb. 5, 2013--------BTW - I look forward to your reactions, when the LDS
Church comes out with a policy Statement in-line and no different that what I
and Obama10 nd other "open minded" commentors have already mentioned.
One last comment, and I'm out...We have Mormons who are gay.We have Mormons who are single.We have Mormons who are alcoholics.You can be single, gay or an alcoholic and still be a Mormon in good
standing.Telling someone they don't belong on account of who
they ARE is just plain wrong and is the greater sin.In the words of
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr:"I have a dream that my four children
will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of
their skin [or age, or gender, or religion or sexual orientaltion] but by the
content of their character." I think he was onto something
there.I firmly believe those words were inspired from Heaven above.I think - that is what a Christian, a follower and disciple of Christ -
should also believe and do as well.Think, Ponder and Pray, that your
hearts and minds might be opened.
Obama10, 'Two deep' leadership is an obvious safety mechanism, is it
not? However, what if the two deep are both gay? Let's get to bottom line
about this and a host of other issues parading before us by the amoral crowd:
There is no right or wrong, tolerate anything, and teaching morals is
irrelevant, whether honesty, or sexual preference. I beg to differ. You
can't create trust by not having laws based on right and wrong. Without
it, chaos ensures, which is exactly what will happen to BSA if they don't
stand up for a 'morally straight' campout!
If this vote goes through at the change in policy is approved; what"s next?
The Scout Oath of morally straight would be thrown out. The next big push would
be "Duty to God". The scouts would have already shown they will buckle
under pressure. So what will change next? Ths core beliefs of Scouting is on the
precipice. If the BSA is swayed they will cease to exist as an organization.
What will all the 6 figure salaried administrators do?
BSA has always welcomed boys regardless of sexual orientation. The difference
is that they ask the boys not be open about it or engage in homosexual behavior.
They also expect straight members to be morally clean, suppressing their
natural desires towards girls. That's what a boy needs to do to achieve
true manhood. Since marriage is traditionally (and in my view correctly) viewed
as only between a man and a woman, talk of same gender romance would be more
disruptive in BSA's same-gender units than traditional opposite-gender
romance. Current BSA policy should not change.Regarding those units
who might keep to old policy if BSA does allow open gay membership, I can't
see how it would work. Such policy would differ among units. How could one
unit participate with others in Jamborees, etc. where they would be exposed to
and be living among leaders with different standards?
@Open Minded MormonBecause your name is stating you MAY be open
minded, you are not so open minded as you argue only one side of the principal.
To call me or anyone else out with your quotes "other open minded". For
you to ASSUME I am not open minded because I don't agree with gay
principals. Also, you don't even understand your own statement. You
say...I did not forget, nor did I fail to mention it.I said,
and I quote"...same level standard ..."here it is again:We allow gay and lesbians full membership and fellowship in the LDS
church.So, shouldn't we show that same level standard with our
affiliation with the Boy Scouts?The same "level standard" is
already applied. If you are gay, please come to church and scouts. If you are
a practicing gay person/member, by all means, please still come to church but
know that you cannot hold a temple recommend or be a scout leader. Same applies
to someone who is an adulterer, drug dealer, committing mail or tax fraud,
etc.Being open minded means being "OPEN", not arguing one
side, but seeing both sides.
If BSA allows charter orgs to have gay leaders, my 25 years of volunteering in
Scouting are over, my Eagle gets returned, and I pull all my boys out of
Scouting. Enough said.
To "Obama10" I hate to break it to you, but the LDS chuch has not
softened its stance on gays. 20 years ago in the Handbook of Instructions that
all LDS leaders have, it said that gays are welcome in the church, and the only
prohibition that they had that was different than other members was that if they
had a sex change they could not participate in Temple ordinances.To
"UtahBruin" you realize that if you take the BSA away from scouts, you
lose 70% of scouts?
I'll follow President Monson's advise. I can see legitimate moral and
logical arguments on both sides of this argument. Lord Baden-Powell's
vision is between a rock and a hard-place. A supporter of scouting? To be, or
not to be? I'll leave it up to The Lord, to tell us through His servant,
For many, the issue to seems to be one of 'progress' in society. Such
has 'progress' seems to have a simple definition - anything which
lowers standards, is more inclusive of all possible ideologies, opinions and
personalities must be a good thing. Soon we will be voting to allow fish to
live out of water; which is only fair.What is interesting is that
the more 'inclusive' we become, we become increasingly intolerant
towards those who prefer their current value systems. At one time gay bashing
was unfortunately common. Now, bashing those who don't accept gay ideals is
vogue. I still do not understand why it is so important for a
faction of society to demand admittance into an organizations who's core
beliefs are contrary to their own. It seems more to me that the issue is not
about wanting to be a scout so much as it is wanting to conquer an establishment
that dares to say 'no'.
My son was in Boy Scouts and attained Eagle status. My grandson is now in
scouting. During all this time, I can't remember anything asking whether
they are homosexual or straight. Maybe I'm just being naive? Does it
really matter? My granddaughter wants to be part of scouting, and she
isn't allowed. She does everything we do with the grandson, except camping
and scout meetings. We have to do those on our own, but when she finishes the
merit badge requirements, we recognize her also. I think there are too many
organizations getting involved in things they have no business being involved in
-- the Pride organization, ACLU, NAACP, etc. What does this have to do with
them? The one I saw talking about this on TV from the Pride whatever was
female. What does this have to do with her? She can't get in.
Here is some things that many members and those not of our faith don't
know. One many of those who have same-sex attraction who have not acted upon
this attraction have been scouts, Eagle Scouts at that, leaders and have had
other callings. Many of you may not have even known the individual had same-sex
attraction because it wasn't broadcast. However, once they have acted upon
those attractions they have been requested not to attend scouts, have been
removed from leadership roles and in the most severe cases have been
excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.This has been the case for many years. The so called softening of the LDS
Church is just that rumor and propaganda. There are many who have had same-sex
attraction who have remained chaste and have obeyed the commandments and
covenants they have made. They have chosen to do so against very stiff odds but
it is a choice many have made to remain close to their loving Heavenly Father
regardless what Pagan and others state. They hold temple recommends, have
leadership roles and all other rewards a member in good standing has.
My experience in Scouting, and as a Leader for the last 25 years was to teach
the boys to help one another.No one does it alone.TeamworkCooperationSkillsConfidenceSharingWe never
talked about sex in ANY fashion - except the BSA required discussions about
inappropriate touching from ANYONE (male/female, friends/relatives, Church
Leaders/School Teachers, etc...as far the the BSA handbook and policy are
concerned, it doesn't matter WHO or single out ANYONE).Pedaphiles can be anyone.Living in Utah - I'm more worried
about middle-age female Teachers having sex with these boys.BTW -
Statistics don'tlie. Most pedaphiles are heterosexual.
I have been involved in scouting for many years. Not once has anybody inquired
about my sexual orientation. I am not aware of any place on the leadership
application OR the youth application that asks about sexual orientation. I
guess I am confused about this so-called "ban on gays" in scouting.
Someone please shed some light on this for me.
@ Healthy SkepticIt's a sure thing that many with same sex
attraction have gone through the scouting program successfully with no problems.
It used to be something no one talked about or revealed about themselves. But
now with this new emphasis on "coming out" and proclaiming ones sexual
preference as well as the encouragment to act on it from the LGBT community,
there is a greater chance of it becoming a problem. It has the potential of
becoming something that's focused on, discussed, distracting from the
rules, morality and goals of scouting. And a huge distraction it would be!
I have donated to BSA every year of my working career even though it was not
$200,000, if they change their policy, they would see no more money from me, and
I am sure there are a number of donors who feel the same way that I do, more
than the money that the BSA is losing from Intel or UPS.
If Sandusky was in Boy Scouts he would have been associating with other leaders
who might have seen in abhorrent behavior and stopped it in its tracks. He was
his own organization, leader and oversight. He was good at lying and leading
others to believe him for years. Again, the power of a Penn State coach and
assistant coach is far different than the BSA rules and regulations of honor and
morality. It is unfortunate to have one abuse case in that kind of organization
but the BSA tries to protect young men and also their leaders by insisting two
leaders or parents always be present at BSA activities with youth.As
with Sandusky, the truth can come out years later, unfortunate but justice sort
of comes to the rescue.
@banderson"There is no right or wrong, tolerate anything, and teaching
morals is irrelevant"The girl scouts still teach morals, even
with lesbian and atheist members.
@mightyhunterhaha"If this vote goes through at the change in policy is
approved; what"s next? The Scout Oath of morally straight would be thrown
out."Okay, first off morally straight is not talking about
straight in the sense of sexuality. Secondly, if you already know that, why
would morals be out the window just because there'd be gay members?
It's like what a lot of people say about atheists. You can easily have
morals while being homosexual or atheist otherwise this wouldn't still
exist..."I will do my best to be honest and fair,friendly
and helpful, considerate and caring,courageous and strong, and responsible
for what I say and do,and to respect myself and others, respect
authority,use resources wisely, make the world a better place, andbe
a sister to every Girl Scout."Or do you want to argue that the
Girl Scouts aren't moral?
I'm fed up with special interests forcing their views on private
The Boy Scouts are free to make their own decisions, and rules. BSA is not the
only option for young boys.Our fellow citizens don't understand
liberty, and wish a government take over. What a shame.My neighbor
has a new car, and nicer house then I do. Rather then whine for equality, or beg
for a new car, I can form my own decisions, and work for the same thing.It's the American thing to do. At least the America I grew up
in.To our gay friends, start your engines, and make your lives as
you see fit.
However, this isn't so much about same-sex attraction as it is about acting
upon this attraction and living the lifestyle that Pagan and others promote.
This is where many draw the line and which has kept or banned others from
participating when they state I'm living with my partner who is of the
same-sex. This is what President Obama and others are promoting the Boy Scouts
to accept and that is not morally clean or correct. This is the problem which
the Church of Jesus Christ will not bow down to. If the Church continues to
hold to scouting it will be with complete exclusion of the scouts from certain
aspects. This would mean only complete scout camps for LDS Troops and etc. No
so called gay scout leaders who are actively living the lifestyle or engaging in
other acts that the LDS Church finds immoral. It is this basic reason why the
LDS Church doesn't support the Girl Scouts. So if anyone expects the LDS
Church capitulate they will be waiting for a long time.
The LDS Church should just go independent with their YM's program. Walk
away from Scouting, the Scouting house is on fire and there are no fire truck in
sight. Develop a new program which develops Aaronic priesthood quorums...
deacons, teachers and priests. They could serve their fellow human beings,
engage in outdoor activities and without the scouting regalia, it would be MUCH
less expensive for the Church and the parents. (We need the money for all of the
missionaries!) It would also allow the YM's program to be a global program.
When I was 12 years old and new member of our scout troop in our ward.....I was
molested on a Klondike Derby by scout leader. The only person I have ever told
this to is my wife. It has been and still is a difficult thing for me to
overcome.......It makes me ill to think that the BSA is considering this move.
The questions posed by the clueless are transparently silly. No one is saying
anything negative about the value or contribution of gay people. It is when
they, or heterosexuals, violate children that there are issues. There have been
excellent gay leaders who remained quiet about their sexual orientation because
their sex lives have nothing to do with scouting programs. DADT (Don't Ask
Don't Tell) worked well in the military... until a violation occured.Just who sneaked in and violated 1200 boy scouts? Pedophiles are
predators from both orientations. Protection is the pre-eminent issue.Why does the Catholic Church have such a huge problem with pedophile priests?
No accountability, no consequences.The issue here is about the private
camping trips, not the public merit badge activities. Stop obfuscating the
common sense issue of safey with liberal, amoral drama and topic switch. BSA- Give up your funding and remain true to your original purpose.
Either way they are in trouble. If they don't change with the rest of the
world they will be perceived as backwards, and become irrelevant. If they do
change they will lose a lot of support from a large population of bigots (e.g.
see previous comments).
If this is about the scouts, I don't see why people would be offended if a
gay 15 year old wanted to learn 1st aid or how to tie knots...In terms of
leaders I dont blame anyone for not feeling comfortable sending their kid out
camping with an adult who may be attracted to their child, whether it be a
heterosexual female or a homosexual man. But openly gay kids should be allowed
Who says that any organization needs the BSA? Organizations can have/start their
own Boy's programs. AARP is an example of something that went wrong. Start
something of a program that works for you. Let the Gay community have their own
organization. Let the non-Gay community have their own organization. Why must we
mix apple and oranges? We don't need too!
Kids that are of Scouting age, can't wait for another organization to form.
For that reason my kids will continue attending a LDS or local troop no matter
what they vote. My vote is for my child and he needs Scouting today not
tomorrow. That logic is some of the logic that parents from either side of this
debate feel.Bottom line Scouting is a choice, a good choice from
what the studies show. High 90's approval rating from those who participant
and high 80's from their parents. There is no program like it, nor is there
one that can could handle a influx of the number of boy's who's
parents would make them leave. For sure there are not the same number of boys
who would join if this passes. Same goes for the money. Although there will be
many parents who send their boys to camp but refuse to help give money locally
to help make the camps better. I don't get that?
DADT (Don't Ask Don't Tell) worked well in the military... until a
violation occured. - Filo Doughboy Under DADT (Don't Ask
Don't Tell) we lost $1.3 billion of our tax dollars. For a x17
year policy... that discharged over 32,000 troops.
What tangible benefit is there to that? DADT worked?
That is an absurd claim. Just like the claim we are concerned about
the 'safety' of our children in the BSA with gays... AFTER
1200 reported cases of abuse, with a ban on gays in place.
Pushing back making a decision just kicks the "scouting membership
cliff" further down the road. Make a decision and then make a decision that
it is final. For goodness sake don't decide to decide later. It not only
doesn't make sense but it is absolutely unfair to people who might donate
time or money only to find out the organization isn't what it was when they
donated.Kick that can down the road and donations will go down the
I predict the. Vote will end in allowing each council the right to determine its
gay policy. This way they appease the left but still giv some bite to the right.
They cant afford to offend the lds church who sponsors 1/3 of all scouts in the
usa. Now the church will have a bigger problem on its hands. How to have a
policy of no sexually active gays holding positions in scouting. I predict the
church will avoid the tornado and drop scouting all together. They dont have
scouting in foreign countries. Make it uniform to not have it in th usa. Bsa loses 1/3 of its support and scales down to a much smaller organization
that is more secular and less religious focused. Thats how i see it.
The Boy Scout organization should not discriminate against boys, unless a Scout
is advocating sexual activity (either homosexual or heterosexual) prior to
marriage. Please note this is not practicing discrimination, only insisting on
adherence to the moral elements of the Scout Law and Oath. How can any company
object to this policy for Scouts?
If it ain't broke don't fix it. There is a difference between broke
and and poor. I have no sympathy for the devil.
I am glad they are going to wait until May to get the real input and not just
the Presidential power to play in this process.
This will be an extremely hard decision for the BSA. Churches are one of the
largest area of support for chartered organizations throughout the BSA. The BSA
rely on Churches of all denominations in chartering and supporting with
donations from their members to meet their mission statement and goals. Even
though some Churches may have support from their members prior to this decision
potentially in May, now the various people and organizations have more time than
the news announcement made it out to be. Maybe the President of the BSA will
sign an executive order as the outgoing Secretaries in the Cabinet are doing to
make it effective today. That would be a disaster as some of the executive
orders will be also. We live in a time of declining morals at all levels of
government and in the nation, as a whole. The BSA was founded and based on
moral values in their oath and law, including motto. These are values are
families and especially the young men need in their lives today. The Super Bowl
designed for men and young men showed the decline in values just the other day
during half-time, with entertainment for families.
To "mountain man" they already have policies that would prevent a gay
man who engages in homosexual activities from being a scout master.A
gay man who is married to a woman and is sexually active with her, and only her,
theoretically could be a scout master.If a gay man is involved in a
sexual homosexual relationship, he would be at least disfellowshipped, possibly
ex-communicated. Either one would prevent him from being called as the scout
@dustmanNampa, ID"Proposing opening leadership positions
to men with expressed same gender attraction in a morally straight young male
exclusive organization flies in the face of logic."--JOnathan Eddy, first
post on this string.According to the Boy Scout Handbook, Morally
Straight means: To be a person of strong character, your relationships with
others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of
all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your
religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life
of virtue and self-reliance.I dont think "morally straight"
has anything to do with sexual orientation according to the Boy Scout Manual.
But it does says "faithful in your religious beliefs." Even the Boy
Scouts seem to recognize that we all don't have the same religious beliefs.
But if this flies against your religious beliefs, by all means, leave the Boy
Scouts. Otherwise, you can still run your scout org. the way you've always
I have concerns with the proposed change in policy. I think it unwise to permit
those who suffer from same gender attraction to be placed in a position of
leadership or influence over young men. As we mature we expand our circle of
influential adults from parents and close kin to include others not related by
blood. This expanding mix of people influence our choices and actions. I am
not comfortable to have homosexual adults or peers placed where they could
isolate and adversely influence or harm young men who do not suffer from same
gender attraction. The gay agenda is not one I wish to follow nor wish to
influence my kin. The rise of the Liberal-Progressive-Humanist
movement challenges the basic tenets of our society under various feel-good
slogans and the homosexual movement is only one facet of the battle for control
of American Society.I fully expect BSA to cave in to the Politically
Correct agenda. Lord Baden-Powell must be ashamed of the present Scouting
It's not an issue of "liberal" or "political correctness"
PC gets a bad rap because proponents are nit- picky. This is a much deeper issue
and is more about learning to be able to let people live their lives and
accepting that some people have different views, on a variety of issues.
LDS Church DOES NOT allow gay and lesbian couples full fellowship in the Church.
Full fellowship ONLY APPLIES to persons with SSA NOT involved with a partner.
@dustman"I dont think "morally straight" has anything to
do with sexual orientation according to the Boy Scout Manual. But it does says
"faithful in your religious beliefs." Even the Boy Scouts seem to
recognize that we all don't have the same religious beliefs. But if this
flies against your religious beliefs, by all means, leave the Boy Scouts.
Otherwise, you can still run your scout org. the way you've always done
it."It doesn't have anything to do with orientation.
That's just religion breathing down the back of organizations that are
serving 'everyone' without discrimination.