Comments about ‘My view: A path to citizenship’

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Published: Tuesday, Jan. 29 2013 12:00 a.m. MST

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lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

The phrase “pathway to citizenship” when referring to illegal immigrants is offensive and has no place in the conversation.

So Bishop, if the proposed amnesty is so difficult, what is to prevent the current illegal immigrants from just ignoring it? There have been no repercussions to their lawbreaking, why bother with the expense and hassle?

But really, it is akin to someone stealing a $60k car, driving it for a couple years, then paying a $2k fine and the back registration, learning how to chang the oil, and then they can keep the car.

As for they fill needed jobs – there are plenty of legal residents, Hispanic or otherwise, who are unemployed who would love the construction and service jobs currently being stolen by illegals.

Coming under the right terms, I might be amenable to some type of legal residency, but NO citizenship for those who have shown they have little respect for our laws.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Though I favor comprehensive immigration reform and keeping good folks here, I do not necessarily favor citizenship as the goal. For the young, definitely. For the mature folks here (raising families) maybe not. Perhaps permanent residency is sufficient and would be less of a lightning rod. To be politically palatable, any solution for those here will have to mean closing the door to more. The borders will have to be tight and employment verification will have to go into service nationwide.

mohokat
Ogden, UT

illegal's I believe are mostrly here to take advantage of the ability to earn more money. Legal immigrants are as much interested in freedom as creating wealth. By letting the illegals take advantage of staying here will reduce the amount of those who are waiting in line. This immigration issue as always is mostly for the benefit of the politicians.

JohnH
Cedar City, UT

When asking to enter someone else's home, isn't it appropriate to knock first, ask permission, then come through the front door? I don't think it's right at all to break in, then ask permission to stay.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

The problems of immigration could be solved, would be solved it the rich and powerful would allow America to return to an economic system where the little people had a means of creating sufficient wealth from their labors to survive and prosper.

Seems like most of the events, programs, and activities of our economic system have evolved into a one way ticket for wealth to the rich and powerful and the thought of redistribution is propagandized as evil and unnecessary.

People need jobs to convert their mental and physical labor into money. In other times this redistribution of wealth kept our economic system running. The advent of cheap labor only compounds the problems created by our technology and creativity.

America will not survive unless we can fix our economy. And the immigrants may end up worse off than they were before.

techpubs
Sioux City, IA

With all due respect there has been misinformation from the other side as well.
The fact that too many of those who have bypassed our immigration laws have also bypassed the laws against identity theft. A friend of mine in Tucson is currently attempting to clarify his 10 year old son's work record and explain that he doesn't owe taxes on the $25,000 that he made while working in CA last year drywalling houses. The problem is that the IRS insists that since it is his son's SSN that is listed by the employer then he had to be in CA drywalling instead of in school in Tucson.
Paying a fine and back taxes doesn't fix the ID theft, but the Gov't is willing to ignore that because they will only charge them with entering without permission.

wrz
Ogden, UT

"No human being, imbued with God-given rights, is illegal." - Article

Too funny, Bishop. You're mixing apples and cumquats. God has his/her laws and countries have theirs. And our country, the US, says if you want to come here, do so according to the laws of the land. As a matter of fact, some churches teach that people should respect and obey not only God's laws by the laws of the land as well.

Let's take a look at some facts... in 1986 the government decided that all illegals in the country at the time (about 1.5 million) should get automatic citizenship and not be send packing. And, to justify that action the borders would be secured. Well, the borders were not secured. Now we have about 11 million illegal immigrants wandering around the countryside wanting the same treatment... Citizenship and our jobs. And over the years the Hispanic population has grown to the point that they are beginning to tell us what our immigration policy should be... open borders... citizenship for everyone who comes here.

Alfred
Ogden, UT

Everybody says we need to secure the borders as a condition of citizenship for illegals. Securing the borders is a red herring. About 40 percent of illegals come here on legal visas but forget to go home. Which was likely the plan in the first place.

The author seems to think we need immigrants, illegal of otherwise to fill jobs. Wake up, guy. We have almost unprecedented high levels of unemployment... We have millions of Americans looking for jobs. We don't need immigrants to fill jobs. Furthermore, illegal immigrants are willing to work for less thus depressing wages to such low levels Americans have a tough time surviving.

My position is that any immigrant who did not come via legal procedures should never get citizenship papers... unless, of course, they are willing to get in line and wait their turn. They can stay on, but no pathway to citizenship.

NedGrimley
Brigham City, UT

JohnH made a comment about entering ones house, which I understand, and makes sense in its own sphere. But I think you also have to throw in the following idea: If you have, for years, made it known that your house is open to anyone, and it is not necessary to knock before entering. And for years you provide snacks and drinks to everyone that enters, as well as letting them know they can come and go as they please. And have accepted their quaters in the jar as compensation for the goodies, it seems totally inappropriate to suddenly one day complain that there are a bunch of freeloaders in your house and call the police and have them all arrested.

Our government (both sides of the divide) has, for years, turned a blind eye and allowed the situation we now have. We can maon about it all day, but we need to have some serious discussions about how we re-hang the "knock before entering" sign and begin again. But I have to question the idea of suddenly complaining about freeloaders when our government left the door open a long time ago.

I can hear the responses now...

Mr. Bean
Ogden, UT

@NedGrimley:
"I can hear the responses now..."

Well, Ned. Back in the day they were not arriving in hordes as they seem to be now and we could assimilate them. Now, we can't. Our government has evolved where everybody's getting government handouts. Illegals have caught on and want a share. Plus, they want our jobs and are willing to accept less pay and under the table, which employers love.

Furthermore, illegals seem to be coming mostly from our south, Latino country. And are gathering in such numbers they are even influencing U.S. immigration policy. We know that (Latinos) influenced our recent presidential elections. Which is why Obama got elected and Romney didn't. Obama announced (contrary to the law of the land) that certain illegals could have amnesty... a two-year hiatus on deportation with the promise to extend indefinitely. That got him elected.

We are skating on dangerous grounds when we let a particular ethnicity get enough of a majority to control things. That's what's happening now. If Congress opens the door to citizenship we will see even more massive numbers coming in for the same treatment. Then, God help us.

Well Read
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

In comparing Obama's plan with the Senators plan one thing stand out loud and clear. The plan put forth by the senators will delay for years giving a path to citizenship to those in the country without papers. While Obama's makes the path much clearer and much shorter.

The senators plan will not provide a path for citizenship until the borders between Mexico and the US are so tight as to allow no one to cross the border without papers. Unless a wall similar to the wall the Russians put up in Berlin is built across the whole border with check points similar to those in Germany those in the US without papers will never be allowed citizenship in the US.

As long as the economic opportunities in the US are so much greater than those in Mexico the people would come. They will not be stopped without a wall such as that in Germany spoken of in the above paragraph.

The Republicans will become more of a minority party as long as they stick with the plan outlined by the senators. The election of 2014 and 2016 will not be pretty for the Republicans.

wrz
Ogden, UT

@Well Read:
"The senators plan will not provide a path for citizenship until the borders between Mexico and the US are so tight as to allow no one to cross the border without papers."

Dear Well Read...

Consider the following...

The borders will never be secured. Never. There are two many ways around it... flying over it for example. Or accessing the US through Canada. Further, if the border becomes secured one day, the next day it could be unsecured... based on several factors including lack of funding. Then what? Cancel all green cards?

And still further... over 40 percent of illegals come on legal visas but overstay. How does a secured border solve that illegal immigration problem?

Eric Samuelsen
Provo, UT

Excellent letter. And let's face some uncomfortable facts. First, there's simply no effective way to 'secure' our borders. Build a ten foot fence, and folks desperate for a job will bring an eleven foot ladder. Second, why on earth would we want to keep folks out whose only crime is economic desperation. Immigrants are a net economic plus in this country, whether they arrive legally or illegally. Third, the 'let them come in the front door' completely ignores the realities of the situation. Getting a green card is a lottery--this isn't a question of morality, it's pure blind luck. Open the borders. We have a demographic problem in our country anyway, open borders is the solution.

Well Read
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

wrz - The borders will never be secured. Never. There are two many ways around it... flying over it for example. Or accessing the US through Canada. Further, if the border becomes secured one day, the next day it could be unsecured... based on several factors including lack of funding. Then what? Cancel all green cards?

That is my point. The Senators plan is only a ploy to make it look like the senators are sincere about immigration.

Saying a path to citizenship will only occur after the boarders are tight is the same as saying we will never provide a path tp cu=itizedship.

The senators plan will not provide a path for citizenship until the borders between Mexico and the US are so tight as to allow no one to cross the border without papers. Unless a wall similar to the wall the Russians put up in Berlin is built across the whole border with check points similar to those in Germany those in the US without papers will never be allowed citizenship in the US.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Eric,

I am no fan of open borders but I think that any proposal for them would be a poison pill for any legislation.

I think conservatives expect a regulated border. I cannot see legislation that does not include that.

As to your point about the 10 ft. fence. We may end up with a DMZ type situation. They can secure it if there is political will (perfect no, secure yes).

SLars
Provo, UT

There is a huge lack of compassion towards America's workers, and taxpayers from American churches and the open border movement.

Business should not get free cheap labor.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1)

SLars
Provo, UT

You secure the border by enforcing the laws inside the country. You make it difficult for business to hire those who overstayed their visa, or made it past the border. E-verify would do this if a business license was at stake after the third offense. You return people caught here illegally. You remove handouts to people who are not suppose to be here.

That will go a long way to enforce our borders. It's not just done at border, it's done in the cities also.

Look at Israels new laws, if caught by police or their immigration people, they are deported without trial. You need to take away it being profitable to break the laws with deterrents.

prelax
Murray, UT

The 1996 reform act included bans on people caught here illegally. Rewarding them with amnesty destroys any benefit of previous reforms. A person here illegally needs to return home and stand in line, and the 3-10 year ban needs to stand. Go home, come back legally.

As far as service and construction jobs, I know people out of work in those fields. They deserve the jobs as citizens of this country first. Then we have visas for those who come here legally.

Families are not "broken" if they live in other countries. The decision to separate families is made by a criminal act. They already have a waiver.

A person has an illegal presence if here without lawful permission. Amnesty and unlawful presence, as well as criminal all fit those who break immigration laws. They do great harm to wages, id theft, unemployment of citizens, use of taxpayers money without the taxpayers permission.

Some government position holders, business, church leaders and the powerful open border people do send out invitations. I assure you the citizens of this country want our laws enforced.

We gave out 4.3 million green cards and visas last year. There are lawful channels.

RichardB
Murray, UT

Bishop, since you did not use your title, I assume these are your personal opinions. Let me explain mine.

People who tolerate illegal immigration undermines all of our labor. It rips at our countries social fabric. "It's a race to the bottom". The one who plays by the rules is penalized..." (Vernon Briggs, Cornell University labor economics professor).

We are hurting this countries poor, and fattening the pockets of business by bloating this countries labor. By supporting illegal immigration, people are encouraging business and individuals to break our laws (and Gods commandments).

Let's encourage people to come here under the law. The road is long but the rewards will be great.

anti-liar
Salt Lake City, UT

@Eric Samuelsen

"...there's simply no effective way to 'secure' our borders."

Somehow, I don't think you're going to like it.... but.... here's a solution:

"We don't have a fence on the border. In the absence of a fence, laws are the only way we have of protecting our border. Laws [and the enforcement thereof] discourage illegal entry into the U.S., just as a proper fence would, although not always as effectively. Lacking a fence, the law is all we have. The law is our fence. Take away the law, and you erase our border altogether." (Arizona Senator Sylvia Allen)

"Second, why on earth would we want to keep folks out whose only crime is economic desperation."

Why on earth would we want to prosecute bank robbers or shoplifters, whose only crime is economic desperation?

Parents are free to take their children with them. Families need not be "broken up."

@Bishop Wester

"The 'lawbreaker' charge is a powerful sound bite..."

And the term "undocumented" is a convenient euphemism, and obfuscation, isn't it.

"...creates conditions which encourage illegal immigration and lawbreaking."

The primary condition is disrespect for the United States, its sovereignty, and its laws.

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