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Book of Mormon goes 'under the knife' in new humanist 'Bible'

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  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 18, 2013 1:35 p.m.

    I see three problems already.

    1) "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

    `` a) I believe any member of the LDS Church who's read the Book of Mormon and prays continually for guidance- would disagree with anyone calling this a "worst" part of the Bible.

    -------

    2) We LDS believe the Book of Mormon to be a record literally preserved by the Hand of God. Think about that for a second. It includes not only His commandments, but insight into imperfect man and how civilizations fell from righteousness.

    `` a) Those imperfections are something God may have intended for us to relate to our own lives like a warning.

    `` b) If God lead numerous men through painstaking, even deadly efforts, to bring us truth- then for us to consider part of it "worst" and "not of worth" is absolutely futile.

    -------

    And finally, I may feel that only part of a journal is of any worth, but someone else may find value in another part. Removal is NOT an act of preservation!

    People can think what they want, but this is not the work of God. It's exactly through acts like this that flaws alter sacred records!

  • John K Carmichael, CA
    Jan. 17, 2013 9:53 a.m.

    Pure laziness to avoid reading the entire texts.

  • gcrobmd GADSDEN, AL
    Jan. 16, 2013 6:49 p.m.

    The purpose of religion is to find happiness. Happiness is based on love for God, your neighbor and yourself. Religion shows how to live after the manner of happiness. After living two thirds of a century, I have repeatedly seen sorrow that could have been avoided by adhering to the precepts of religion. What were people thinking?

    When I became a member of the bishopric of my local ward, I was amazed at how much humanitarian effort goes on behind the scenes. Without an organization, very little would have been done. This is what organized religion does.

    Elder Neal A. Maxwell said, you can’t have the brotherhood of man without the Fatherhood of God; try as you might, the results will be cosmetic and will not last. Whether this humanist effort accomplishes much good remains to be seen.

    Social studies have shown that religious people are happier and more charitable than others. Why would we choose a path and stinginess and sorrow?

  • atrulson Bothell, WA
    Jan. 16, 2013 6:20 p.m.

    And he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile(2 Nephi 26:33)

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 6:17 p.m.

    RE: Canyontreker, If you find later in life that your interpretation of the Gospel was wrong, LDS or otherwise, it doesn't make it a hoax, only that your way of thinking of it was wrong.

    A of F 13,"If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, we seek after these things." Joseph Smith. whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.(Phil 4:8)

    The original articles of faith. #8 We believe in the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we also believe the Word of God recorded in the Book of Mormon, and in all other good books. See current #8.
    The KJV/3 Nephi Sermon on the Mount. LDS Scholar Dr. Larson finds 12 examples where JS copied the 1769 KJV errors.
    Mt 6:13 KJV and 3Nephi 13:13 Both have the doxology, For thine is he Kingdom and power and the glory forever amen. The KJV is based on 9th to 12th century texts. Earlier and better manuscripts do not contain the doxology. Only One example.

  • Canyontreker TAYLORSVILLE, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 4:20 p.m.

    very concerned, "there is no in-between when taking the whole of its words and teachings. Some would have us believe otherwise, but the black and white of the printed word will not allow it to the sincere person. The logic follows with Joseph Smith as well, either a prophet or a liar."

    It concerns me when we look at things as absolutes, as black and white. This logic would say that all other religions have to be perfect or be a hoax. Yet, we know when we feel truth and good. Wouldn't we want to live in a community of Faiths with active members even of other religions rather than most people lost in atheism?

    If you find later in life that your interpretation of the Gospel was wrong, LDS or otherwise, it doesn't make it a hoax, only that your way of thinking of it was wrong. I think the Book of Mormon calls this being "stiff-necked." Read the scriptures each time with a loose neck and opportunity of a different perspective.

    "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, we seek after these things." Joseph Smith

  • Canyontreker TAYLORSVILLE, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 4:00 p.m.

    LValfre "How can it be the most perfect book written when it's been changed and edited countless times?"

    Before you can answer this question you have to admit that "countless" is a big exaggeration. Changes have all been documented and the first edition is still available. Second, the most perfect book is only in English as translations into other languages have to be by "idea to idea" rather than "word for word" for the end result to make sense. Ideas and interpretations change and we find better ways to express ideas through language from time to time. Third most of the changes are in the references; chapter headings, footnotes, etc. The Introduction was the latest to change, but the verse itself did not. Third, chapters and verses were introduced in the 20th century. There is current study to see if these verse breaks are in the best places...get ready for another edition.

    The Introduction, chapter headings, bible dictionary and footnotes are not considered scripture but only aides.

    In any case, nothing has been omitted or added since the first edition and the verse itself has not changed.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Jan. 16, 2013 3:15 p.m.

    @John Wilson

    "The Book of Mormon is copyrighted. The other books are not. Cutting and pasting parts of the Book of Mormon cannot be legal without specific written authoriziation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I doubt the Church will authorize the partial use of the Book of Mormon."

    Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right?

  • John Wilson Idaho Falls, 00
    Jan. 16, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    The Book of Mormon is copyrighted. The other books are not. Cutting and pasting parts of the Book of Mormon cannot be legal without specific written authoriziation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I doubt the Church will authorize the partial use of the Book of Mormon.

  • SS MiddleofNowhere, Utah
    Jan. 16, 2013 1:19 p.m.

    @ Herbert Gravy,
    He did, the article just says that his book of abridged scripture was published in 1858.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 1:07 p.m.

    I like what President Marion G. Romney told religious educators:
    “When I drink from a spring I like to get the water where it comes out of the ground, not down the stream after the cattle have waded in it. … I appreciate other people’s interpretation, but when it comes to the gospel we ought to be acquainted with what the Lord says.”

    That goes for humanists' editing.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    Jan. 16, 2013 12:28 p.m.

    I thought Thomas Jefferson died in 1826 on the same day that John Adams did. Exactly 50 years after the Declaration of Independence?

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    Jan. 16, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    I once attended a lecture by an atheist who spoke about the Sermon on the Mount and what it meant to him. It was very insightful and nobody felt offended. I think what Jefferson and others saying is that there is something of great value in the scriptures, even for those who do not believe in the supernatural. I would hope my Mormon friends see this move by the Humanists to include selections of their scripture in their library as being in that vein.

  • SS MiddleofNowhere, Utah
    Jan. 16, 2013 12:23 p.m.

    This is my favorite Thomas Jefferson quote:
    I hold to the precepts of Jesus, as delivered by himself, to be the most pure, benevolent, and sublime which have ever been preached to man. I adhere to the principles of the first age; and consider all subsequent innovations as corruptions of this religion, having no foundation in what came from him . . . If the freedom of religion guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, truth will prevail over fanaticism, and the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests, will again be restored to their original purity. This reformation will advance with the other improvements of the human mind, but too late for me to witness it." Thomas Jefferson, 1820

  • very concerned Sandy, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 12:20 p.m.

    I've read only a little of the other religion's scriptures, so I don't claim to be an expert in them. I'm a little more familiar with the Book of Mormon and the Bible. They are overflowing with references to the spiritual side of life. They talk of Christ, His Godhood, His miracles, His superior teachings, His grace, His atonement, His resurrection. Without these, the Book of Mormon and the Bible are mere shadows of religion.

    I am glad that there are books that are superior to our current (natural man's) knowledge. Else what would we strive for? What *truths* would guide our lives for the better.

    Humanists and athiests can tear apart the Book of Mormon. It’s a free country. They may even have “joy for a season”, but in the end, they can’t stop the word of God from visiting the whole earth and from declaring the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ and the existence of an omniscient and omnipotent Father in Heaven.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    To "On the other hand" I hate to tell you this, but organized anti-religion has caused more deaths than organized religion.

    How many millions have been killed in the last century alone by Communists in their anti-religious political takeovers?

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:50 a.m.

    My favorite Thomas Jefferson quote:

    "A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering."

    Doesn't sound like a modern-day atheist.
    Sounds like a prediction that has come true today....

  • very concerned Sandy, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    Impossible, taking miracles, faith, prayer, the afterlife, revelation, the existence of a superior being, spirituality, etc. out of scriptures. It's akin to claiming there is common photosynthesis without light. To take the Godhood of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father out of the equation would require cutting out the heart of the scriptures.

    Either Jesus Christ was who He said He was (so many times and in so many ways) or He was a fraud - a huge fraud. One cannot separate His divinity from His wisdom. It is the same with the Book of Mormon. With its claims, either it is true or it is a grand hoax. There is no in-between when taking the whole of its words and teachings. Some would have us believe otherwise, but the black and white of the printed word will not allow it to the sincere person. The logic follows with Joseph Smith as well, either a prophet or a liar.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:35 a.m.

    @che1968

    "What ever happened to the statement " The Book of Mormon is the most perfect book written, and a man will come closer to God, through it, than any other." Dissecting it will not make it less so."

    How can it be the most perfect book written when it's been changed and edited countless times?

  • Suburbs of SLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:33 a.m.

    When I was trying to put myself through the process of finding out if the Book of Mormon was true, something much like this helped me the most. I was exhausted from leaders and advisors telling me how to read the Book of Mormon ('Underline every time it says 'Jesus Christ,' or 'Lord'; Mark everything related to the Atonement; Mark everything related to repentance, etc). So, when I decided I was sick of those experiments, I picked up a completely blank copy, read it as fast as I could, and only marked the verses I really, really liked. There was no rhyme or reason as to why I liked them, just ones that struck me as particularly great on a really fast read through.

    For me, that was what it took for me to actually give the book of chance. It didn't in and of itself convince me the book was true, but it helped me lose some of my biases against it by helping me see that, if nothing else, there was a lot of good in it. That gave me the time and the right attitude I needed to eventually find out it is true.

  • Twin Sister LINDON, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:31 a.m.

    No Esquire. Actually, and ironically, this is exactly what these Humanists are doing when they choose to chop up the Bible, Book of Mormon, and other inspired writings, and then THEY are calling evil good and good evil and putting darkness for light and light for darkness.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    James E. Talmage broke up the Book of Mormon into chapter and verse. Some of these should not have been broken. Try reading two verses as one or two chapters as one verse. You can get a perspective closer to the 19th century students of scripture.

    I don't find any fault in reading scripture out of the original context if you find truth in it.

  • A Wise Guy Spokane, WA
    Jan. 16, 2013 10:16 a.m.

    Or perhaps, Thomas Jefferson's work was just one way he had to study the Bible. Perhaps he didn't intend to change it all. It is the practice of many scholars to examine things by pulling our groups or parts of it to look at in a different order. I have underlines in my Bible. That doesn't mean I don't believe the part I didn't underline!!!

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:57 a.m.

    There are definitely passages in the book of mormon that make me wince, and the one quoted as one of the worst is definitely one that qualified in my mind too.

    Interesting that the Book of Mormon is being considered at this global level, good for them. I agree it contains a great deal of wisdom--even words of life.

  • Terrie Bittner Warminster, PA
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:19 a.m.

    It's interesting that anyone wishes to emulate a book apparently written for a rather insulting purpose (if you're a Native American). The trouble with taking a scripture out of context or time frame is that it is then subject to misinterpretation. To understand the scriptures, you have to read them all and study the complete message. When people read these statements out of context, with no understanding of the situation or complete meaning,and they know little of the faith that offers it, they come to inaccurate conclusions about the faith--and that leads to persecution, in many cases. If you want to understand a religion, read the complete books of scripture and learn their teachings from believers who can help you understand context.

  • I-am-I South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:18 a.m.

    i'm fine with people doing what they please, and I even find it kind of flattering that they have recognized the BoM as a good book of ethical guidelines, but but as just good books of ethical guidelines all these books have failed their purpose.

  • Innovate Spanish Fork, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:13 a.m.

    JoeCapitalist2,

    The point you bring up is understood with some differences you might consider:

    The abridgement of the Book of Mormon record was done by a prophet of God who had seen Christ and knew of His divine work.

    The humanists are seeking to remove information about the devine Sonship of Christ by dispelling the miracles that seem unbelievable. Such an effort distorts truth in much the same way politics and influencing public perception does.

    There are differences of context when the dialog of the Book of Mormon is rearranged for the purpose of providing a doctrinal response to a different religion that chooses to remove Christ and God from scripture. Such a response removes the essence and meaning of each scriptural text meaning for the reader.

  • Grundle West Jordan, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    I found this article interesting and can't wait to read their results. I would love also to see what their collection of the worst quotes would be from all the works.

    That being said...One of the trends in our society is to completely separate our public life from God. I understand that desire as there are many interpretations and morals codes derive thereof.

    However...The very basic tenant of our existence as a republic and national entity is our belief that the rights that we are afforded in the constitution and the subsequent Bill of Rights (and Amendments) is that these rights are INALIENABLE. That word is a very important part of our history.

    The US Declaration of Independence states that God Himself bestowed our rights and liberties upon us. Not man. This protects us.

    These are natural rights... not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government.

    I believe that there is a movement, nefarious by some, ignorance by most, meant to undermine that concept. Once undermined, then all the rights we now enjoy become LEGAL right. That is to say... bestowed on us by a given legal system.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:02 a.m.

    The motivation behind this effort appears to be an attempt to answer the question, “Do we have to believe in magic and superstition in order to follow the example of great men like Jesus and other sages throughout history?” My personal view is “no, we do not” so from that perspective this may have a lot of appeal (in separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak).

    On the other hand, given the vast library of ethical (far superior to the barbarism found in the some of these “unedited” books) and even spiritual teachings found outside of these works, I can’t help but wonder “why go there?” If believing in supernatural stories gives people comfort and provides the motivation to change their lives for the better, why undertake a project that may be perceived as disrespectful to what they cherish?

  • Cowboy Dude SAINT GEORGE, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:58 a.m.

    Jefferson was no Atheist. He loved scripture especially the teachings of Jesus. He cut and pasted what he wanted to learn to make him better today. In letters he stated himself in certain times of his life as an Epicurean and/or Unitarian. He didn't claim to be Deist or Agnostic, but had writings that supported this.

    Put it all together and you have a man that wanted to be better. As Epicurean's believed, man is a free agent, the body is of God (a temple)to experience pleasure and pain, the universe is Eternal (no beginning or end), happiness is the aim in life, virtue is the foundation of happiness, and indulgence is the opposite of self-discipline robbing your agency and happiness.

    Jefferson searched and found no modern religion that had the original Gospel. Yet, he fought for the Freedom of Religion (laying a path for the Gospel to be restored.)

    Jefferson died in 1825 less than five years before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints was established.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    The Book of Mormon is already a "cut and paste" book. Mormon abridged a large collection of ancient records along with a generous amount of his own commentary to put it together. In many places it clearly states that "less than a hundredth part" of the total original record was included.

    So yes, someone could do the same thing with all the holy scriptures we have today - distill them down to a much smaller book with only the "best parts". The real question becomes: Who is deciding what those best parts are and what is not really needed?

    Mormons believe that Mormon was a prophet with the spirit of revelation and was guided by God to perform the work. They certainly trust his judgement much more than a humanist today who denies the very power of God and instead relies upon his own reason to judge what is worthy and what is not.

  • darinraycousineau Boise, ID
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:44 a.m.

    Typically, President Brigham Young spoke sternly concerning popularity and what can be its ruining acclaim:

    “I do not want ‘Mormonism’ to become popular. … I would rather pass through all the misery and sorrow, the troubles and trials of the Saints, than to have the religion of Christ become popular with the world” (in Journal of Discourses, 10:297).

  • Innovate Spanish Fork, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:41 a.m.

    I have an issue with taking scriptures out of context in order to create a different dialog for discussion. Isn't this what happened to the Bible over the centuries? Can such a book that removes the context of miracles become dangerous for christianity and for other religious faiths in terms of rearranging context to create a humanistic doctrine. I am grately concerned about the implications of taking scripture (the word of God) and removing such context to create false doctrine.

  • coleman51 Orem, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:26 a.m.

    I doubt that they will make many sales of these books. Perhaps they should spend their time more wisely spending their time directly denying God and leave the scriptures for others to judge the merits of each passage.

  • timpClimber Provo, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 8:21 a.m.

    I have had some noble and special friends who are humanists and I have some very religious friends who can look through a key hole with both eyes. But to pick and choose what should be in a holy book leaves out the essential essence of its being. I will be interested to find out how much of the first chapter of Moroni made it through the humanist knife.

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 7:45 a.m.

    Fern RL ,
    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. (Book of Mormon, 2Nephi 15:20 )actually (Isaiah 5:20)
    I love that quote, and wouldn't mind a cut and paste job(Some-one did) of favorite parts of the Book of Mormon or other scriptures, but I would also like to see the flip-side of the coin--all of the parts that didn't make the cut.

  • Fern RL LAYTON, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 6:51 a.m.

    "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Book of Mormon).

    I love that quote, and wouldn't mind a cut and paste job of favorite parts of the Book of Mormon or other scriptures, but I would also like to see the flip-side of the coin--all of the parts that didn't make the cut.

    As to Esquire's judgment: "Sounds like the Republican Party!" that sounds like a very good example of prejudice to me.

    I don't believe there is one true political party. Even if there were such a thing, all of us are mere mortals capable of making huge mistakes based on faulty understanding.

  • Albert Maslar CPA (Retired) Absecon, NJ
    Jan. 16, 2013 6:07 a.m.

    Original documents are best left alone as they are the basis for their target audience, whoever that happens to be. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Quran, and others must be allowed to stand or fall on their own truth and merits. Truth is 100% and the most effective falsehoods contain some percentage of that truth, otherwise no one would accept the blatant falsehood. Satan is known as the father of lies and presents an often believable mix of truth and falsehood to beguile even the most astute. Selective cutting and pasting is used indiscriminately to see the falsehood, a favorite political ploy of the day which today might be presenting young children as a backdrop to the gun control controversy. Well and good, but who will sit in for the 1.2 Million children aborted in the US each year since the 1973 Supreme Court Roe v. Wade Decision legalizing abortion on demand for any reason, and today offered at taxpayer objectionable cost? Is that not a lie as well?

  • che1968 Exton, PA
    Jan. 16, 2013 4:14 a.m.

    What ever happened to the statement " The Book of Mormon is the most perfect book written, and a man will come closer to God, through it, than any other." Dissecting it will not make it less so.

  • Red Headed Stranger Billy Bobs, TX
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:52 p.m.

    "Organized love is better than generalized concern." Neal A. Maxwell

    I cannot fault others for being atheists. At one time, I perhaps was one also. I thought that I was clever, and almost managed to clever myself out of the kingdom. Then I rediscovered prayer. It is difficult to ignore God when you start to receive answers to prayer. It is a usually a marvelous experience, sometimes it is scary when your answer is "no", but the answers are real. No, I can't "prove" it to anyone else. Yes, some people mock or don't understand.

    Regardless of what others say, my membership in an Organized Religion has thoroughly, repeatedly blessed my life. This membership is one of the things that I value most. I can't help it if Ms. Winston doesn't put the same effort into actually doing what the Book of Mormon recommends, and instead cuts and pastes what they like. It is kind of like buying a moist, gooey cinnamon roll, unrolling the dough and scraping off the cinnamon filling with a knife. Yes, you are left something that can be eaten, but is rather unsatisfying and removes what made the original interesting.

  • golfjazzute farmington, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:19 p.m.

    Jefferson was a Deist. He believed in God so there is no denial of God. Religious Dogma is what needs to be eliminated. Its tough to argue scripture such as "doing good to thy neighbor" its when we start to decide what has to be done to qualify for Gods grace, and we have the truth statements by most religions that can cause hatred, pride, violence, and poor treatment of others. I hope this "New Bible" will foster tolerance and help people see the similarities of spiritual peoples of all cultures.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:48 p.m.

    to On the other hand

    I don't disagree. Truthfully, OrgRel's influence on humanity IMO is a push.

    Like Jefferson, I'm a Deist. OrgRel makes no rational sense to me and will leave it at that

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:37 p.m.

    Thomas Jefferson was once asked about his philosophy of life. He said "I am an Epicurean". Research the philosophy of Epicurus to see what that means.

  • On the other hand Riverdale, MD
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:26 p.m.

    @Hank Pym,

    Organized religion does no more damage than organized anti-religion i.e. My Denial of God > Your God.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:18 p.m.

    re: patriot & A1994

    Humanism is prefering individual thought and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over doctrine or faith

    Jefferson was a Deist. As such, he believed God gave us reason not religion.

    When you eliminate the "metaphysical", you have a book of ethics so to speak. Stripping out all the basis for feelings/emotions could eliminate damage that organized religion does i.e. My God > Your God

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:01 p.m.

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Book of Mormon). Whoa! Sounds like the Republican Party!

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 7:20 p.m.

    It sounds like Thomas Jefferson was a bit of a doubting Thomas. (Pun intended.)

    I have no problem with people taking passages from the Book of Mormon to add to their collection of favorites. We have mastery scriptures that kids learn in seminary.

    Of course, when you seek to eliminate the 'supernatural' parts of the Book of Mormon or the Bible, you then have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 5:46 p.m.

    My feeling is they are delving into something they do not understand and in my opinion they do not have a right to do that. No matter what they change it will not interfer with what we as members know is right, know what was originally written. They know not the ramifications of their choice to make changes....

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 5:21 p.m.

    Humanist and Bible don't exactly go together. One implies atheism and the other God. Perhaps Humanist chop job would be a better description.