Off course they want LBGT's to stay with the church, they need to keep
collecting their tithing so they can keep financing Luxurious constructions like
the City Creek while destroying The Olympic Legacy Plaza.
Can I say that relationships are more than sex. That is just part of it.
Everyone who who is in a relationship should know that. I have friends who went
back to the Church. One is married. I know that for different reasons, that is
what they had to do. They pay a heavy price! There are many ways to deal with
it. I was raised in the Church and being honest meant that I shouldn't
deceive somebody. There was no way for me to hide and even now, it would not be
a good thing for me to do what they want. No, I can honestly say that it would
kill me! Being gay is no accident! I have been happy with my partner. It has
always felt right! The sadness has come from the loss I feel from losing friends
and from having people view me as something less than I am. Before people knew,
they openly talked about spiritual things. After, I could see the very moment
that they tune me out. What should we expect? Leave room to bend! I don't
know if I will ever feel like I once did about the Church.
Warm and fuzzy websites will not repair the damage in the relationship between
Mormons and gay and lesbian Americans. Ending discrimination will.The Mormons could start by ending their blackmail of the Boy Scouts of
America. The Mormons have held the Scouts hostage to their theological beliefs
by insisting on the expulsion of gay men and gay teens. At a time of epidemic
suicides of gay teens, this borders on criminal.We are a two-dad
family, both former Scouts, and would love to have our son join the BSA. But
thanks to Mormon intransigence liberals flee and corporate funding dries up.
Soon we will rename it the Boy Scouts of Mormons, Southern Baptists, and the
Catholic Hierarchy.I quote Lord Baden Powell, the gay Englishman who
founded the Boy Scouts:"Buddha has said: 'There is only one
way of driving out Hate in the world and that is by bringing in Love.'
Scouting's aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both
sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self interest, personal, political,
sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of
self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity."Amen.
Not sure why someone would want to stay in a religion that will not allow them
to marry the person they love or grant them access to the highest levels of
their heaven? Seems like the church will always consider gays and lesbians as
sub-par and not equal to other members.
Being a person who has dealt with sexual sin myself, I can say that this is much
needed. More for members of the church than anything. I let a sexual addiction
get completely out of hand largely due to a fear of what people would think of
me if I came out. When I finally did, I realized that there are A LOT of people
who just do not understand what it is like to have everything inside you telling
you one thing and then to be expected to do another.I'm not gay
but I have tendencies to act out in other sexual activities outside the
boundaries of the commandments of God. I have had these tendencies ever since I
can remember encountering sexual feelings and the tendencies are not wrong.
Acting on them is.I know that I cannot fully understand what same
sex attraction would be like but I feel that my situation is about as close as
one can get. The experiences I have encountered with this have only strengthened
my conviction that we are here to bear one another's burdens. I sincerely
hope this website will help move church members in this direction.
@TwinLights;I respect your opinions. Thank you for sharing.@VAggie;Not angry, all I see though is more self-serving
hoopla from "the church".@Ophelia;Peace.@wrz;All we're asking is to be able to "pick
one".@OnlyhtheCross; Now there's a real
"loving" response to Ophelia. Wow.@Flashback;Certain genes express at different times during development. Not all
identical twins will both be gay, but they will both be gay more frequently than
fraternal twins, an indicator that there is a genetic component.@JonathanPDX;If the church is true, why would God make some people
gay and then ask them to deny themselves for their ENTIRE lives? An explanation
would certainly be welcome.@BillInNE;Your churches
recognition is not required, but thanks anyway.
Counter Intelligence says:"... a much bigger problem are those who
simply cannot tolerate non-compliance to gay dogma (Ranchhand)..."You clearly don't understand what I've been saying all this time.
It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not someone is gay and chooses to
live a celibate life. What matters is that you've made that choice and it
applies TO YOU. You seem to think it is okay for you, since you made that
choice, to deny other gays the choice to marry because, well, celibacy is
working for you - why not every gay, and well, "god says so".Be celibate and alone, that's okay with me. Just stop trying to force
other gays to live the life you've chosen for yourself. I'm not
fighting to make you live "the gay lifestyle". I'm fighting to
prevent you from making other gays live the life you've chosen for yourself
and to make sure that gays know they're perfect just the way they are.@Lane Myer;Excellent comments. Thank you.@ThirdTryScreenName;Perhaps we don't want "fellowship
with the (judgemental) saints".
@One Human Family"The truth is that the Mormon church has been
abusing gay people for a very long time. You can pretty it up all your want, but
it is still abuse (as an example look up electro shock therapy and BYU)."----------BYU was not the inventor of shock therapy as a treatment
for homosexuality, and there were many institutions that used it. BYU ceased use
of shock therapy well before the American Psychological Association stopped
recommending the practice.@One Human Family"Gay people are
still being forced to choose between love and religion. To any gay
people reading this, run as fast and as far away from the church as you can. The
grass is truly greener on the other side. ... Don't confuse Mormonism with
God. They are not the same."-----------I know several gay
people - some married, some not, that are active, happy members of the LDS
Church. I fully trust they know what they are doing and are happy in their
choice to live their lives as Latter-Day Saints. Maybe not all will choose this.
But these people I know are the first to defend the church and their choice to
remain in it.
Instead of the "love the sinner--hate the sin" mentality of many Mormon
Church members (which is certainly the tone of this website, which I have
researched btw) I prefer to adopt the "love the sinner and hate the sin
inside of "myself." With that much to concentrate on, I'm sure I
could learn to keep my nose out of other peoples lives and bedrooms.
To Mint Julip: That is what this site is all about to allow the closet
individual that has same-sex attraction know that there is away that is better
than trying to be someone he/she is not. It gives them hope to understand that
what the world says is not always the way it is. This site will help those that
have this attraction understand that even being honest with themselves and
seeing those who have the attraction and how they have dealt with it. The Lord
is not going to change his laws to accomodate man. Most religions try to bring
the Lord to the people where The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
tries to bring individuals to the Lord. What you are suggesting is the
world's way not the Lord's way.As to your comments to
Killpack. If this was to happen and they wanted baptism, they would be required
to give up the lifestyle otherwise no baptism. If you look at the world's
perspective then it is breaking up a family now. If you look at the eternal
perspective, the family is already destroyed.
It is true that some with SSA cannot resist acting on that attraction--on their
own. The same is true for those who fall prey to other forms of destructive
behavior. Many cannot, on their own power, overcome their attraction to
pornography, their hot tempers, or their practice of mentally abusing their
familyBut I also know that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we
who have such behavioral problems can be blessed by a power greater than our
own. It is happening in my life and I know it can happen for anyone else who
wants it. For details, look up the Addiction Recovery Program of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has been adapted from Alcoholics
Anonymous.Ether 12:27 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto
them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my
grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they
humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things
become strong unto them.Miracles happen.
@Killpack,What about the non-LDS couple who legally marries in their
state and then adopts a couple kids. After 10 years of building a relationship
and raising their children, they are met by Mormon Missionaries. They read the
BOM and come to believe it is true. They want to be baptized into the church.
How do you advise they proceed? Divorce? Split up the family? What?@Bill,I am troubled that you seem to think living a lie isn't
a problem, but living honestly in a committed relationship is. How can a
closeted homosexual be honest in all their dealings when they aren't even
being honest with themselves?
@ESAABG is my FAMThis is from The Family: A Proclamation to the
World, which is considered an official statement of the LDS Church: "We
further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are
to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and
wife." I'm pretty sure that anyone known to be in violation of this
statement has put his or her membership in jeopardy, regardless of what a
man-made judicial body somewhere has determined to be legal. In response to your
second question regarding heterosexual couples not married in the temple but
civilly married, I would say this. They are NOT enjoying what LDS Church
membership has to offer. IMO, the whole point of LDS membership is to marry in
the temple. I'm not married, but if I didn't plan to someday marry in
the temple, I would remain single. Getting baptized, going to church every
Sunday, paying tithing, staying out of bars, etc., etc., just to be a good LDS
isn't very appealing to me, let alone civil marriage with children. To me,
the LDS Church is little else without temple marriage, relatively speaking.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints DOES NOT recognize any of the
same-sex marriages performed across the world or the United States. The
marriages do not meet the definition of marriage as defined by the laws of our
Heavenly Father. This means that you can come to our meetings and all else.
You would be welcomed but in the end the result is that you would need to meet
the law of chasity that all members meet. Which is that unless you are lawfully
wedded, as man and woman, you must obey the the law. If you doubt that then
further research on the new website would explain that. As someone
has already stated, 'nothing has really changed." As in another thread
it isn't for those who are already living the gay lifestyle and want to
live the gay lifestyle. It is for those who want to live something else other
than this lifestyle. Who understand there is more to life than accepting what
the world has stated, "you have no choice, just be who you are and be
happy." This site gives hope where the world says there is no hope.
Third try screen name: Openly gay or in the closet, as long as you are living
the law of chastity I am sure you can be baptized.
I have a question, that I would like respectful answers to: if a gay couple is
legally married (for instance, in Washington this past weekend, many couples
were married), can they enjoy full membership in the Church? Heterosexual
couples that are civilly married, but not in the temple, can be full members
@banderson"Gays can not procreate with each other. It requires a
female."First off, lesbians exist. Secondly, adoption and
in-vitro fertilization, and surrogate parenting exist (we even had a state rep
who was a surrogate mother for a same-sex couple). Thirdly, gay people are gay,
they aren't going to have opposite gender sex (unless they're bisexual
rather than gay) so stopping gay marriage isn't going to get you more kids
out of it.@One Human Family"This website changes
absolutely nothing"It seems more willing to acknowledge sexual
orientation as a trait one is born with and is a bit more assertive about trying
to not shun the individual, but it changes nothing with regards to what they
expect from members who are attracted to people of the same-sex.
The same old rhetoric that says nothing substantial in hundreds of words. It
sounds like a desperate plea to keep gay members on their rolls. The traditional
family is the only avenue for ultimate exaltation in the church and it has
virtually nothing to offer to single heterosexuals like me or to homosexuals.
Real compassion and acceptance is not expecting someone to remain celebate all
of their life or opposing a legal committment by a loving same-sex couple.
The title of this article should say "Stay with us, we won't hit you
again *wink*." The truth is that the Mormon church has been
abusing gay people for a very long time. You can pretty it up all your want,
but it is still abuse (as an example look up electro shock therapy and BYU).
This website changes absolutely nothing, so I wish people would stop gushing
over it. Nothing has changed. Gay people are still being forced to
choose between love and religion. Love always wins in the end and the church
will continue to lose amazing, remarkable people because of it. Your loss, not
ours. To any gay people reading this, run as fast and as far away
from the church as you can. The grass is truly greener on the other side. There
are many people, groups, religions that will love and accept you for who you
are. Don't confuse Mormonism with God. They are not the same.
This is fantastic? Truly this is a move in the right direction, yet I find it
odd that God and his church are always trailing the society that they live in.
Doesn't God give his leaders on earth any forsight? This should have
happened years ago.
Despite this web site (and arguably because of it), the LDS Church continues to
be on the wrong side of this debate, and this fact will continue to tarnish the
Church's public image.
I hope that this can help all of us take steps to reevaluate how we treat each
"What you don't have the right to do is to push those beliefs into law
to the detriment of your fellow human beings."Define law and
define detriment. First of all, I can't change natural laws. I suppose I
could change man-made laws to a degree, but why would I want to do that? I am
vehemently opposed to our corrupt, man-made government. I wish I could abolish
it, not expand its existing, overreaching powers. Some might consider that
detrimental, as in those who would like to see gay marriage endorsed by the
government. It isn't the government's place to endorse or oppose
marriage. In fact, I will oppose any effort of the government to do so, either
way. I don't think they should exist in the first place, so I will never
endorse any of their 'laws' that to me have no moral authority. So
don't worry, I won't push my beliefs into 'law,' as in
corrupt, man-made statutes. God's laws are what I answer to. They already
exist, so I won't do any pushing to have them changed either.
budhenson, you inspired me, so I got the whole thing: We believe all that
God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things
pertaining to the Kingdom of God.I'm not God...or
even Jesus. Having said that, I can state only one other thing for
certain--while it is possible the doctrine could modify and/or change through
revelation, I definitely can't tell you if, when, or how much. And, not
being God or even Jesus, and knowing that my Heavenly Father, in the
preexistence gave free agency to all His children to choose which plan to follow
here, and being sure His heart broke, as any parent's would, when many
chose not to choose His plan, I don't see where I have the right to tell
anyone what they should do. I still can't get to bed early enough to be
alert on Sunday morning. Show me an LDS gay person with that as the worst
problem in the world, and I'll eat my ol' drill, cord and all.
It's said that we'll never be given a burden greater than we can bear.
Everyone will face challenges in their lives, some greater than others, &
all will require faith in & guidance from our Heavenly Father to overcome.
The hardest thing for many people to understand is that feelings are
just as real for those who experience same-sex attraction (SSA) as for those who
experience opposite-sex attraction. Some think it is simply a choice made at
some point in their lives, but it's not...no more than a choice was made by
anyone attracted to those of the opposite gender.However, for ALL
who believe in the Church, the challenge is not that the feelings aren't
real, it's whether the Church is real & true. If it is, then those who
experience (SSA) are faced with a more difficult road to travel by recognizing
& understanding but not acting upon those feelings.So it's
important to know that regardless of the things our mortal bodies tell us, we
must maintain & strengthen our faith in our Heavenly Father & do his
will that he will help us in our greatest hour of need.
@killpack,You have the right to believe whatever you want and you
have the right to share those beliefs. What you don't have the right to do
is to push those beliefs into law to the detriment of your fellow human
beings.@snarc,There is a difference between heterosexual
people that are not married because they CAN get married to a person they have
feelings for (assuming they are of age and available of course). Homosexual
people do not have that option no matter what the situation. All gay people
want is equality.
I know a set of Identical (mirror image) twins. One was a homosexual, the other
wasn't. Due to that, for me, the jury is still out on whether or not it is
learned, chosen, or born with it. Two people with identical DNA, no way one was
born with it and one wasn't.That fact aside, that doesn't
stop us hetero folks from practicing the Golden Rule, no not the one that says
"He who has the gold makes the rules"(although that is true in the world
of Soros), we should treat people as they want to be treated. If it is a
morality issue, that is what the Bishops are for. Otherwise, leave them alone.
Be good examples of Christ like love.Based on my previous rantings,
can you believe I just said that?
I think engaging in homosexual activity is wrong. I was born that way. And no
one has the right to change the way I feel about that. And no one ever will. As
Pink Floyd once said, 'we don't need no thought control.' I have
the right, as a human being, to think or believe WHATEVER it is I want to think
or believe. In this country, I also have the right to share my beliefs with
others. And as long as I live, I will continue to share my beliefs with others.
And no one is going to stop me, no authoritarian judiciary and their goon
squads, no supposed religious teacher, and none of my gay family members. Amen.
@Ophelia,I just want to thank you for your beautiful comments about
your gay son. I also spent years trying to pray and fast away the gay as well
as years of reparative therapy and finally realized that God loves me just the
way I am. It is very encouraging that your son has such a supportive and
wonderful mother!I also found this new website to be more
discouraging than encouraging. I am saddened that after 20 years since I left
the church, gay kids are still being taught that they are not ok just the way
they are. The options of living a life alone or marrying someone of the
opposite sex are just not viable or realistic options for most. Can you imagine
if heterosexual men or women were told to marry someone of the same sex? How
many would stay in the church? Anyway, thanks again for your
beautiful comments and support! Your son is very lucky to have you!
Baccus. My reasoning is quitte simple. Italy will be desolate late this
century based on current population trends. I believe in family. Gays can not
procreate with each other. It requires a female. I don't believe in the
trend line that promotes a no growth policy, which includes gay marraige. So, I
defend the family and marraige between a man and a women because I want to take
an active interest in the future of our children, something that isn't
apparent with gay marraige advocates, regardless of the means they want to
promote that doesn't include the most plausible method for growth.
Ophelia, don't be bitter. God's Word says we're all sinners.
Either accept the blood of Jesus as your sacrifice for sin, or find another
religion. You can accept of reject His offer. But you cannot redefine His
message and Word millenia later. Give Jesus a chance. He died for
the opportinity. Read Ephesians 4:17-32. He indwells His Children of Light and
brings them peace and joy as He conforms them to His image. It's a choice;
don't gamble with your Eternity based on what others tell you. Go to the
original source and ask God. You can find peace and life through Christ.
God love for us is very special. It's more valuable than any social
institution or political view. We can contend and show rudeness or we can show
childlike love and kindness to each other. Our differences in views can never
justify negating the existence of that choice. Satan wants us to believe that we
should stand up, shout our beliefs, and continue shouting no matter what the
cost. His plan is to stir contention and fighting among us and sometimes it even
feels as though he has won. The truth is that God's plan will not fail and
Satan will eventually be powerless.Some will contend and fight, but
none of it is of God. We can live rightly and do the work that will secure us an
eternal inheritance. We either do the work God has promised His blessings in
return for- or we work against God. That doesn't mean we all have to agree
all the time. We're all learning line upon line, etc. But contending and
fighting about it? That certainly doesn't profit any of us in the end.This site will help many. The Lord's peaceful work continues!
It would be a good thing if people could learn to live and let live and to mind
their own business and leave their neigbor in peace.
@ wrzyou wrote:"Besides which... humans have a higher calling,
part of which is to overcome/temper human cravings/urges. Don't ask me why.
Ask some church authority". What about "The glory of God is
intelligence"? Don't you have the power to reason on your own?you wrote:"They don't. They subdue their natural urges and
instead pick one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in accordance
with societal norms and church teachings."What is the difference
of what you describe with what LGBT people are asking?They are
asking for the right to share their lives with the person they love and being
recognized as a society as full citizens. They want their children to have two
parents and that their family is protected under the law.They are
asking for the same rights that any other contributing member of society is
entitled to receive. Nothing more nothing less.
The church has taken a great deal of critisim in recent years on this and same
sex marriage. Like it or not this is a signal that the church is softening its
stand and moderating its view. Not that it is changing its moral stance, but it
seems clear that it is reevaluating that in some way.
Again if you go to the website you will see that nothing has changed except how
we are to perceive the individual. The doctrine remains the same. Homosexual
activity is a grievious sin and one that is forgiveable. The website reaffirms
that marriage is between man and woman, not of the same sex. It reaffirms that
we are to be sensitive and loving of those who have same-sex attraction. It
reaffirms that there are many challenges of same-sex attraction but it also
states that if one acts on the attraction they are going against the law of our
Heavenly Father. Those who are saying this new website and such is a change in
approach is really more of a change in perspective and action of members. The
site affirms that it isn't medical nor is it a illness but an attraction.
Yet, it reaffirms that when one acts on this attraction they are doing a
grievious sin. It is no different than one who commits adultry or has sexual
relations outside of the Church's definition of marriage.
OpheliaBountiful, UTI think this whole thing is being more
directed toward the so-called "good" Latter-Day Saints - who berate,
put-down, ostersize, and shun "different" members into being more
tolerent, compassionate, understanding, and accepting -- like you and I and many
'other' LDS have become.Jesus Christ would never treat
other this way - and we truely ARE his disciples, neither should any of us!Besides - I think we as Latter-Day Saints have a much bigger and more
serious issue with PORNOGRAPHY and pharaceutical addictions than this one.He who is without sin, cast that 1st stone....speaking of stone
throwing - People who live in glass houses...
The LDS church is both revolutionary and evolutionary. It isn't static and
will respond to both external forces as well as revelation (if you believe in
such)."...and we believe that God will yet reveal many great and
important things..." isn't an idle Article of Faith.One of the
leading apostles said in a meeting I attended that, "There are more things
that are relative than we generally imagine." One could tell some major
issues were being discussed by the leaders. One wonders if the church
membership in general may be the roadblock that keeps things from progressing
much more quickly. Didn't Brigham Young once say that we had to learn the
"A, B, C's" before we could progress to the next letters?
"I know some heterosexual guys who'd love to make it with a room full
of females. They don't. They subdue their natural urges and instead pick
one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in accordance with
societal norms and church teachings. Why can't SSA's do the same and
be happy and content?"------------Now, if you had
said that these men who want every woman refuse to marry anyone and will never
partner with someone for the rest of their lives, I would agree that they are
then doing the same thing as gays.If you want gays to marry and have
children, you are asking a lot from their spouses who will never feel like they
are wanted, cherished and desired. Do you have a few children that you would
like to have marry a gay person?Until we realize that being gay is
so very different than anything we have experienced, we cannot understand what
they go though. Please, let's have a little empathy for them.
This seems like a pretty big step forward for a church that has "one man and
one woman" as a core doctrine. Let's give credit where credit is due.
@Claudio:"There are homosexual animals, of virtually every species, on
land, in air, under the sea."They're not homo...
they're likely bi at best.Besides which... humans have a higher
calling, part of which is to overcome/temper human cravings/urges. Don't
ask me why. Ask some church authority."Those who have SSA are
born with it. It's not a question, it's a fact."It's not a scientific fact. The jury is still out on the question.
Besides, how would a researcher interview a bird or a whale on the subject?"Are there examples of people with SSA who go on to live in a
heterosexual relationship? Yes. Does this mean they no longer have SSA? No it
does not."I know some heterosexual guys who'd love to make
it with a room full of females. They don't. They subdue their natural
urges and instead pick one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in
accordance with societal norms and church teachings. Why can't SSA's
do the same and be happy and content?
Over There, CA People are NOT born that way. To say that would be
saying that God took their agency away, something that He will never do.
Alfred, Left and Right handedness is wired to diffident degrees, depending on
the combination of genetics you receive from you parents. Left handed people
have their speech center on the left side of the brain, right handed people have
it on the right. The right side of your body is controlled by the left side of
the brain and vice versa. Fully left handed people who are forced as children
to use their right hand, quite often develop speech impediments. My left handed
mother was forced in Catholic school to use her right hand, she stuttered well
into her 50's. As we learn more about human biology, we find out there are
reasons for a lot of things that we use to blame on evil spirits or madness or
sinning. Left handed people were meant to be left handed and homosexuals were
meant to love the same sex. Going against what nature intended usually causes
other problems.Scientificamerican web site has a great articular on
As the LDS mother of a gay son -- who is in a committed relationship with a
wonderful man -- I find all of this more discouraging than encouraging. The
change seems to be "love the sinners," instead of "you are justified
in despising the sinners." It still makes me sad...and mad...that my
awesome, loving son is considered a sinner. After years of praying
and fasting away the gay, sending my son to reparative therapy for two years at
the behest of priesthood leaders -- and then realizing the therapy is
psychological malpractice -- plus hearing ward, stake, and general ecclesiastic
leaders berate LGBT individuals, it's hard for me to see this as anything
more than beautifully sugar-coated prejudice. I'm sorry this sounds so
bitter. I guess it's because I am.
Jeff, I simply asked the rhetorical question as a means to suggest that choosing
the gay lifestyle, which is the one under discussion, would not be likely to be
something someone might do, for reasons stated. I don't know what your
politics are, but I don't mind disagreeing on an adult level...I'm
used to being a minority! I prefer to do it with folks who want to share
viewpoints, though, as in, sharing both directions. (Virtual)handshakes
Alfred, Please read this: "August 1, 2007 National Geographic NewsThe gene most closely linked to left-handedness has been found, experts
announced this week. The gene, called LRRTM1, is also associated
with a slight increase in developing certain mental illnesses such as
schizophrenia. "You actually are born that way.
Alfred--I feel like sayin, Just like a man. But I won't. I'm a
left-handed Mom, 3 left-handed kids out of 4. I put their utensils and cups in
the center, to let them all choose, since I had been the only leftie out of five
children and two rightie parents. The only one who became right-handed was the
youngest, and she was also the only one who had trouble deciding. Now, tell me,
why are most of my children left-handed? They were born that way! I would not
blame me--oh, their dad was right-handed, too. Yes, there are lefties on both
sides of the family. Of course, it is possible to do things with the
non-dominant hand, we do that all the time. Oh, btw, I learned from the surgeon
when I had a brain angiogram that lefties are not always right-brain-dominant.
Something else to put in your knowledge bank. Now next time you think someone
wasn't "born that way" check it out first, please.
@ Andersenyou wrote;"ATL, NH, Vt, Me are very well just like
Denmark. Low crime, but hardly one to emulate, unless, of course, you like the
idea of a people eventually becoming extinct".This is an honest
question. How do you reach that conclusion? If LGBT are allowed the same rights
that you (I assume) have as heterosexual. How do you make the connection to
extinction?Heterosexuals will stop having sex? Are you insinuating that
heterosexuals secretly want to be gay but don't want to break the law or
the mores of our society? There is something missing in your thinking process
about this issue.If homosexuality is not your cup of tea just
don't drink from that cup.
@ dwaynerichards: Are you writing in euphemism when you equate
""intimacy or companionship" with sex, or do you really believe that
the Church denies intimacy and companionship to everyone who isn't
heterosexual and married? I believe that it's possible to have
both intimacy and companionship without sexuality, and you are simply wrong that
the Church denies that to anyone.If by "gay" you mean
someone who is sexually attracted exclusively to someone of the same sex, then
the Church's position is simply that a "gay" person--the same as a
heterosexual person--should not have sexual relations outside marriage. You may
disagree on whether or not the Church should oppose same-gender marriage, but
there is nothing in Church doctrine or practice to suggest that non-sexual
intimacy or companionship is denied to anyone.@ kargirl: A
rhetorical question is useful, but it doesn't sustain an argument. There
may be a number of reasons why someone chooses a lifestyle that "puts them
on the outs." I'm not sure what you mean by the
"political and geographical." I live in California, so we share both
politics and geography. I hope that gives me permission to disagree with you.
I'm bringing something I read in a different source: The Bible is a book
about God is not a book about Science. Therfore, you will find well intentioned
men with no knowledge of Science stating a lot of errors in that field. The
Bible is not a book about sex. Therefore, you cannot pretend that the Bible
teach you about sex.Romans 1:24 - 27 Perhaps the most insidious
passage in the Bible about homosexuality.As I said before, the Bible
is a book about God. Here Paul is talking about people who abandoned God to
worship idols (goddesses Diana, Aphrodite and other fertility gods)some of their
rituals were to castrate themselves, or have a variety of sexual
manifestations.Heterosexual men and women abandoned their
"natural" desires to worship idols.Look at the verses and
you will find words such as abandoned, exchanged. LGBT people have
not abandoned God. They have not exchanged heterosexuality for homosexuality.
They were never heterosexuals in the first place to abandon it or exchange
it.LGBT people are normal people. They love God and God loves them.
God loves them so much that He has made many, many gays.It's a beautiful
To those who think SSA is a choice--why would someone purposely choose something
that would put them on the outs with so many parts of society, and withdraw them
from participation in so much of its benefits? Really, would you, my
well-meaning friends? I doubt it, not too likely. And please, please, some of
you--and you know who you are--take it out of the political and geographical.
You don't appreciate it if others bash you for things not related to where
you live or your political stance, and neither do the rest of us. Thank you for
The actions of sexual immorality have always been sin, whether heterosexual or
homosexual. A couple who live together, cohabitating with sexual conduct, cannot
be baptized -- matters not whether they are heterosexual or homosexual. More
than 51% of households are not married in America, basically committing sexual
sin. We seem to have gotten pretty used to it by now. Over 70% of high school
seniors have been sexually active. We seem to be very tolerant of all kinds of
sexual immorality. Even Church discipline has become more tolerant of sexual
sin, except for a certain few categories. We should be more courageous in
denouncing this behavior -- last I checked, sexual sin was #3 on the list of
most abominable sins to the Lord, and very few even venture to #2 and #1. Being
'gay' is not biologically, physiologically, psychologically
'natural' - we just ain't wired or constructed that way. But it
is powerfully 'real' to each one who feels that attraction. Feelings
beget behavior begets feelings. We need to do a lot of research, without
judgment. Love is the key to all relationships in this human existence.
Personally Im proud of the Church leaders making the effort to improve
understanding among the membership. I do not see this as a political move
reflecting our changing society, rather I believe its a Christ like move to
understanding and acceptance. Im convinced our Church leaders were inspired to
open this dialog.
@Ernest T. Bass:"It's not a choice. Just like people are born
left handed..."I grew up writing left-handed and trained myself
later in life to do it right-handed. Not an easy task but doable. Much of life
is not easy but doable. "...it's not understood why a small
minority are born left handed, they didn't choose it, being left hand
dominant just feels right..."Because the mom didn't pay
attention to the child's left/right hand activities in the formative years.
Could be related to the placement of eating utensils at meal times or perhaps
even to breastfeeding on one side or the other."...they are born
that way."No proof of that."Treat them with the
respect they deserve."Agreed.
I thought for sure I remembered a General Authority say that faithful gays will
wake up on resurrection morning with "normal attraction" for the
opposite sex.Or was I imagining that?Anyone remember
Hafen's remarks on this subject?
"I think that's what God is saying: stay with me."What
God aughta be saying is 'what causes it,' and 'how to fix
it.'This is critical due to church philosophy re life after
death... that the best of which is only available to the married.
If you would welcome LGBT people in your sacrament meeting, please join my
Facebook event. You don't actually have to do anything. Joining just shows
that you support their attendance at church. Look for the EVENT--Sit With Me
I'm not LDS but I have had a lot of Mormon kids in my classes including
Gays who are have great difficulty with their situation. I'm glad to see
the Church reaching out in a constructive way. It will save lives. Count on it.
I support same sex marriage, but I wish more people who agreed with my view were
more tolerant. The mormon church is trying to help it's members be more
tolerant, and somehow people are angry about it? It's counter productive to
change, if we want change, then we need to re-brand as showing people that those
who are gays and lesbians are actual people who happen to be attracted to
something different. Trying to be an angry radical activist will only hurt the
cause. The anger over this seems similar to how this summer the debate was
brought down to chicken vs. the Muppets.
Re: ". . . one day their marriages will be performed in the temple.""Their" marriages have been performed in temples since there
were temples.Husbands to wives, and wives to husbands. And the vast
majority are very happy and productive marriages, because "they" live
the life God wants them to live. "They" are us. Good people
with temptations to sin -- like all of us -- but who choose to live elevated,
rather than debased lives.But if you're betting same-sex
marriages will someday be solemnized in the Lord's house, I'll take as
much of that action as you'll give.And, lest anyone chastise me
for gambling -- a wager that Church-sponsored temple marriage will always be
between members of opposite sexes is a sure thing. There's not the
slightest risk involved.
@BelchingCowLooking at some of the comments about the "radical
gays," it appears that some fear we are far scarier than an angry straight
man.As for what spiritual abuse is, spiritual abuse is the
maltreatment of a person in the name of a god, deity, faith, cult-religion, or
church. Regarding your comment on modern day prophets offering
guidance, this website is more a product of modern day media than revelation.
Believers and nonbelievers alike agree that there's no new doctrine in this
webpage. When the heavens open up and give some new revelation to the church on
the matter, I'll encourage those with questions to listen to what your
modern day prophets have to say.
From the website itself: "The Church’s approach to this issue stands
apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can
and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the
Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s
law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of
what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change
— is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they
encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members,
or elsewhere."Hopefully, this clears up some of the so called
misunderstanding. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not
changing doctrine nor is it making it acceptable to do acts the Lord's
finds immoral. Just as heterolsexuals must obey the law of chasity, so do those
who have same-sex attraction. Nothing has changed in that regards.
ATL, NH, Vt, Me are very well just like Denmark. Low crime, but hardly one to
emulate, unless, of course, you like the idea of a people eventually becoming
Perhaps an understanding of the pain caring family members endure on behalf of
someone who has rejected the Lord's proclamtion on marraige and gender
would bring some peace to those who have rejected it.
I'll never be able to understand how -->
@UtahDemocrat"But if I ever see one of you spiritually abusing a young
person who is struggling to figure out how he or she fits into Gods plan, you
will learn first hand what an angry gay man looks like."Umm.. do
tell, what do they look like? I would think they look the same as an angry
straight man. I'm not sure what you mean by spiritually
abusing but any young person who is struggling to figure out how he or she fits
into Gods plan can find out by listening to modern day prophets.
RE: JeffThank you for your review, I see where we may differ. My
syllogism is more based on deductive reasoning while perhaps in contrast with
your syllogism inductive reasoning you may be justifying from your point of
view of what you want to see. It is common in religious rationalizations. I hope
you always imagine good thoughts as they help make good deeds.
I believe that this website is a good thing. It is a needed discussion and
demonstrates one reason why modern day prophets are necessary - to help
God's children with contemporary issues. It has been helpful to me in
understanding those who are dealing with this issue. However, like many have
commented - from a doctrinal perspective there is really nothing new here. As
members of God's church we should treat all of our "brother and
sisters" with kindness and understanding.Having said all that
MAKE NO MISTAKE - the LDS Church is not "softening" it's stance on
homosexuality and it never will. God does not change. The act of homosexuality
is and always will be contrary to God's will. This weakness is no different
than any other weakness. Men (and women) are given weakness to grow from, and
like all other weakness can be overcome. "Men are that they might have
joy" - if you follow God's commandments you will be happy.
To "LDS Liberal" I would accept a gay person in those rolls that you
list. However, you should know a gay single man will not be bishop, nor will any
unmarried man.I know LDS members that are pushing the limits of
apostacy, but I still accept them.You are the one who seems to be
having a hard time accepting me, and the fact that the church has not changed
its stance on gays for 20 years possibly 40 years.Why are you now
throwing race into argument? Could it be that so far you look hateful and
bitter and are attacking me because you resent the fact that I present a kinder
gentler truth than the harsh bigoted lies you live with?
If all churches demanded these values from those that choose to be within the
faith and didn't require those outside to live by them, this wouldn't
be an issue, at all. I lived in SLC for six years and found the Mormon people
to be wonderful, many, at least in SLC to be live and let live and that comes
from the perspective of an atheist. For those people who choose to be a part of
Mormonism, this web site is a good thing. I can't imagine a life of
celibacy, the companionship that comes with romantic love and planing an old age
with that person, but if that works for them, fine.One day, just like the
black issue in the 70's, they will deal with gays and one day their
marriages will be performed in the temple. If you just grasped your chest in
horror, someone like you grasped their chest 70 years ago when they heard blacks
could be married in the temple. It will be the moral thing to do.
So thinking about being immoral isn't a sin? Only if I act on it? Good to
@ skeptic: I don't accept your syllogism (Religion is politics and
politics is money and power so the Mormon church will make changes). First, I
don't accept the premise that "religion is politics." If you
qualified it: "religion can be political," then I would agree, but that
destroys your conclusion. Your second premise, "politics is money"
problematic for the same reason. Your conclusion, based on incorrect premises,
is invalid.Your efforts to make such a syllogism betray a bias
against the Church that overwhelms your ability to reason properly.Does the Church make changes? Of course. If those changes are motivated by
money, there would be more direct evidence than one could find for most of the
Church's changes in practice. An argument could be made for the
discontinuance of plural marriage, but certainly not for expansion of the
priesthood, elimination of some budget requirements, creation of the LDS welfare
system, issuance of the new editions of the scriptures, suspension of the law of
consecration, and others.Further, if you look at the subject a
little more carefully, you will see that there is almost always a prophetic
precedent for any "changes.
"....there is no such thing as principle, power, wisdom, knowledge, life,
position, or anything that can be imagined, that remains stationary-they must
increase or decrease." - Brigham Young____________________Eternal progression is a religious tenet unique to Mormonism. While
truth is unchanging, that doesn’t mean that one’s individual
UNDERSTANDING of truth is perfect. Indeed, the very concept of eternal
progression assumes that there is much we have yet to learn.I, for
example, don’t understand what causes sexual orientations that appear
aberrant to the norm the world accepts. Maybe someday science will bring a more
definitive answer to these issues that are troubling to many. But I do believe
that Christ would not treat gays as pariahs, social outcasts, or as inferiors.
RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UT20 years ago the church said
homosexual relationships were wrong, and they still are considered wrong today.
They said to love those with SSA issues and help them feel welcomed, and they
are still saying that today. The message is still the same, just the method of
delivery has changed.8:59 a.m. Dec. 7, 2012=================== I knew people who left the LDS Church back in
1978 when the Prophet changed policy toward "blacks".It's
been nearly 35 years since then, and I know "Saints" who are STILL
members who are uncomfortable with "them". I have a question
for you RedShirt.Would you accept a Gay member as your home teacher?Your Quorum President?Your Bishop?How about a Temple worker,
or standing in a prayer circle?I'm COMPLETELY fine with it.I have Gay members in my family.It's part of how I have
formed my "Liberal" opinion.Try being away of how someone else
feels for a change.It's called compassion.Bledding hearts tend
to be that way.
Religion is politics and politics is money and power so the Mormon church will
make changes favorable to changing times the same as they have done time after
time when it was deemed past doctrine made no sense to modern times.
Yesterday's church is not today's church and tomorrow's church
will be much different than today's. So be patient and wait and eventually
the church will come to common sense. In the meantime be loving and charitable
to your fellow man and wish for the best and struggle to do good and defeat
There is a lot of misinformation running around on this thread, we can only hope
the Church is going to be accurate and get some of it cleared up. For one
thing, to the gentleman who claims there is ZERO evidence that children are born
with their orientation already set (kind of like we are born to grow teeth and
body hair one day, those aren't choices, right?), you are misinformed.
Twin studies have proven there is a genetic predisposition to being gay. Of
course that isn't proof, but it would be called EVIDENCE. Then there is the
evidence that nearly all gays, millions and millions of them, claim it
wasn't a choice, if fact they fought it, but to no avail. Then there is the
evidence that those that are claiming it's a choice are either bisexual or
they didn't have a choice, right?
Everyone sins. Why is this sin worse than others? What is your sin? None? do
RanchHand,Understood. That is you. So this website is not really
aimed at you and nor were my comments. But there ARE those that struggle, true?
And for them, this can make a difference. My comments were simply in support
of them and our reaching out to them.Peace. I meant no disrespect.
Re: "The Church's stance has been "changing" over the last 10
years, and I know you believe God and his church never change."You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to make up your own
facts.Fact is, I can attest -- from personal experience in various
positions of Church leadership -- that the Church's position has not
changed, at least in the last 42 years.In times before that, there
probably was no specific position or pronouncement on homosexuality, apart from
those on sin, in general, since it wasn't really an issue back then.
People's inherent sense of modesty had not yet been overcome by the
"sexual revolution," and real people just didn't identify
themselves with, or even talk about their sex lives.But we do know
that going back to the Savior's time, His mission was to retrieve and bless
the lives of sinners, saving them from sin, not in sin.This most
recent announcement differs in no way from that.
To "LDS Liberal" 20 years ago I was in a branch presidency, and had
access to the Handbook of Instructions given to branch, ward, and stake leaders.
In there it was quite clear that Gay people were to be welcomed into the church
and were to follow the same standards as any other member. The Church's
position has not changed, only their way of communicating it has.20
years ago the church said homosexual relationships were wrong, and they still
are considered wrong today. They said to love those with SSA issues and help
them feel welcomed, and they are still saying that today. The message is still
the same, just the method of delivery has changed.
@Jeff in NCThe message doesn't work for you. You say it's
a 'bad message.' Yeah, well that's just like your opinion man.
Where love is, there God is also. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is love and that
is what His Father gave us when Jesus Christ came on earth to teach us and even
die for us.He gave us His only begotten Son, that whoso believeth in
him should not perish. That is found in going to Church and being involved in
important safety links to get us back to Heavenly Father. The
Apostles and Prophets live in our day to help us learn how to do that. This is
a message of love they want to share with all people. There is not a family in
the Church that is not impacted by people of all types and philosophies.Christ told us to love everyone and that may be hard but I have learned
in these situations that love breaks down barriers, slowly but surely from
personal experiences. It is the same for all of God's commandments that we
should live and follow.I do know we need principles to live by and
not become as some ancient peoples and want to be like other nations and be
popular in a world that is not godly.
I grew up faithful LDS. Were it not for my same sex attraction, I'm
confident I would still be an active member. Ironically, it was my belief in LDS
doctrine about the importance of having a family that ultimately led me to leave
the church. I've had plenty of experience with LDS who struggle to figure
out how to deal with me. They want to simultaneously communicate both their
belief that I am sinning and that I am a child of God worthy of his love. Well
brothers and sisters, I'm good with God. That struggle you feel is not
about how God wants you to communicate with me. It's about God trying to
communicate with you. How you respond to that internal dilemma is your cross to
bear. But if I ever see one of you spiritually abusing a young person who is
struggling to figure out how he or she fits into Gods plan, you will learn first
hand what an angry gay man looks like.
"....This message doesn't work for me. Let's face it, gays and the
mormon church are two different shapes...."____________________This is less about changing people than it is about acceptance of others
whom you have differences with.
I hope this helps some people who are still LDS and gay.However,
most formerly LDS gay members will never want anything to do with the LDS church
again. Once they are free, there is no reason to ever want to ever go back.The only thing they want from the LDS church is freedom from its
influence over their lives. If the LDS Church doesn't believe in allowing
every citizen to get married, they shouldn't perform them in their churches
and temples. However, they shouldn't use their influence to deny another
human being their civil rights to obtain a civil marriage license. Best of luck with the website and I hope it helps people, but the primary
motivator is another attempt at repairing the damage done to the LDS
Church's brand after the vitriolic Amendment 8 campaign. It will be
decades before the damage from that will be repaired, if ever.
I think this is an insincere attempt for the church to "modernize"
itself. What can a loving gay couple who has adopted two beautiful children take
away from this? The website is full of the message that family is SOOO
important. But in order for this gay couple to "stay with us (i.e., the
church)" they would have to totally blow up their family and send their
children to orphanages? Maybe one of the parents gets to keep the kids and the
other parent can come to visit on weekends...but he has to sleep on the couch.
This message doesn't work for me. Let's face it, gays and the mormon
church are two different shapes. Can't fit a square peg into a round hole
unless you mutilate the square peg and make it fit. Bad message.
Small step - important one and a good one - but still a long way to go.
@Redshirt1701;I'm sure you married someone you found sexually
repulsive , right?@patriot;Actually, humans ARE
animals.Kingdom: AnimaliaPhylum: ChordataClass:
SynapsidaClass: MammaliaOrder: PrimatesFamily: HominidaeTribe: HomininiGenus: HomoSpecies: H. sapiens@TwinLights:FYI. I do not "struggle mightily" with my
gayness. I struggle mightily with the bigotry that makes someone else tell me I
need to "change", God made me as I am and I've no need to change
myself to meet someone elses expectations.Thirdtryscreenname
says:"...at the end of the day they MUST either change or
abstain." Wrong! At the end of the day, YOU must stop the
bigotry, that is where the "change" needs to occur.
Celibacy isn't the end of the world. Some make it sound like a death
sentence. Might be hard, especially for those who are sexually
active, but chastity is one of God's expectations on his saints. To be a
better person, mastering that part of oneself is paramount. The
world makes it sound like not having sex will kill you. It's the same lie
the boyfriend tells his girlfriend to get her to give in to be unchaste. Homosexual activists are trying to convince those that have any
inclination in their direction that if they don't have sex with them, they
will be unhappy forever. The Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that
while sex is a blessed gift when shared between a married/committed man and
woman, it is NOT the only source of happiness. That expectation of
chastity weighs equally upon both man and woman no matter their inclinations.
We reach out to people looking for a deeper-more real joy.
Redemption. It is not hopeless. The moment a person abandons that
all-or-nothing thinking, is when joy thrives. To those without faith this seems
hard, but those of faith rejoice.
A lot of you are missing the point. There are many out there who feel ostracized
from the church because of the way they are or feel (regardless of its chosen or
innate). This is a message about love and about not condemning the individual.
@TallGuyYou said: I know a few people who are not married, and they
likely will never be married. They have desires, but are also counseled not to
act on them. How is it any different?The difference is that the
straight single members of the LDS church are at least given a little bit of
hope that they can marry. They aren't judged when they date someone. They
have a support group within the church. I don't see that for the homosexual
members of the church.
@non believer"So it is ok to have the desires, but as soon as
you act on them, you are out?"No, you are not out. Many times
members of the church choose to go "out" because they feel the church
won't accept them, which is just not true. There are people in the church
who slip up (or act) and make mistakes and commit sins, but the atonement of
Christ can help them feel the peace of forgiveness through sincere repentance.
We all have sinned so each of us needs the atonement to be cleansed from sin and
to overcome it. Satan would have someone believe that there is no way back. When
you "act" upon sin, you are out only if you choose to go out. The church
is asking those individuals to stay.
I don't struggle with same-sex attraction as much as I struggle with being
brought up to conditionally "love" myself. We were a perfect
(bishop's) family taught to earn our worth with achievement and/or keeping
up appearances. But, of all my many siblings, I may be the lucky one. At least
the Church is now saying "Love one another" in direct relation to LGBT
brothers and sisters. When will they help some of my brothers who broke down
striving to be perfect presiding Church leaders, world-class career men, and
dutiful husbands and fathers? Have we really learned the gospel if our thoughts
and feelings have to be balanced by medication?
"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people.
The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals
DO NOT CHOOSE to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them.
With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children,
including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."I applaud
this small progress in the stance of LDS church's official position. The
Prop 8 campaign was a low point for the church and left many scars even for
those of us who are not gay. Personally, it won't feel right until our gay
monogamous friends can worship side-by-side with us and partake of the
They had to because do many are committing suicide and being tormented because
"they struggle with same gender attraction" I think it is interesting
that the stance remains the same but they now have a location for discussion. Do
they understand that this is opening up comments similar to the statement that
we love others even if they are not the same as Mormons. This continued judging
that is typical of Mormon culture now has an authorized location for
mis-information and ignorance. The stereo typing continues and is seeming to be
endorsed by the church with this site. It is not a place for strength support
love or positive community for either side of the issue. It is a way to make a
larger connection to an audience that is more family oriented better set in life
and a way of saying we offer support but in all reality I see a place where they
are saying LGBTQ is your bolder and Christ will help you push it out of the way.
I say "Christ" if real would be saying come around that boulder be loved
and love as you are.
@VA SaintI suppose that is what puzzles me. Yes, we need to help them
with the struggle, but at the end of the day they must either change or abstain.
If they are unable/unwilling to do so, they cannot enjoy fellowship with the
saints.The problem with reconciliation seems to be that the militant ones
are insisting that we take them just the way they are. Doctrinally that
position in incompatible. They must ultimately abandon the homosexual
lifestyle.Someone who struggles with same sex attraction is no different
than any of us struggling with our sins. It's done privately and quietly.
No Bishop has ever told me to go ahead and sin. If I fail, he helps me try
again.But if I rebel and insist on living the sinful life, I'm on my
own. And if I spread my rebellion around the congregation, I'm subject to
some serious sanctions. Even if I openly talk about my sins, the Bishop will
tell me to stop.Would someone with an SSA problem be treated any
I just hope that this can reach out to some of our members who struggle so
mightily. May God bless them to know they are loved. May God bless the rest of
us to love them a bit more. May God bless us all that rancor and ill will do
not poison this well that could give some of our Father in Heaven's
children a bit of relief.
Third attempt to post.Judge not, lest ye be judged.Love thy
neighbor as thy self. Love ye one another.Let he without sin cast
the first stone.The Gospel of Tollerance.The Gospel of love and
acceptance.Hetrosexuals are not tacked on to the commands above. I
believe it means to include all people.We tend to pick and choose those
commandments that we want to follow and try to prove that those commandmentsthat we do not want to follow are off set by seemingly contradictory
commandments in other scriptures.It seems to me, that we should
follow the dictates of our own conscience and allow others to do the same
without passing judgement. Be a friend.
I have read all the comments. I see a relief from frustration in some of the
post while I also see a a new much higher stress level for others.In
my opinion, if a member of the Church can feel that, in spiite of the fact
that about 10% of humans, world wide, and within the USA,are born with
Homosexual tendancies, they just can not accept this as acceptable behavior,
this is okay, as long as they do not try to pass judgment against those that
feel compassion for those that our different.Those of us that
rejoyce with the Church's stand at this time, can find happiness that we
are now openly sensative to the needs and desires of all people regardless of
their sexual preference, as long as we do not condem others within our flock
that are not yet ready, and perhaps never will be ready, for this big step of
SS,"There will always be something to accuse and attack for
them." It seems like you are turning this around so that those
who the church has attacked for years are now the ones somehow attacking the
church because they disagree with its position. It is nice your church leaders
are now calling for tolerance, compassion and respect for others but Christ did
that in the Bible so its hardly something new. This site is really an appeal to
live the gospel as taught in the Bible. The issue most gays and those who
understand this issue have with the church isn't intolerance or
discrimination of narrow minded members of the church instead it's their
position on homosexuality in general. Claiming acting on homosexual feelings is
a sin is to doom homosexuals to a life of celibacy and loneliness. Something
they never ask heterosexual members who may always have hope of married life if
they find someone and it actively helps them achieve it. Its nice they moved
away from counseling members who are gay to marry the opposite sex but they
replace it with counseling to remain celibate or change something they
Hey!Score one for progession!Utah Republican Mormons are
going to flipping out over this.I can hardly wait to watch!2RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTo "Craig Clark" that is
what the Prophets of God have said. That is not my idea.I am not
judging, just relaying information that you apparently didn't have.1:22 p.m. Dec. 6, 2012==========Yes you are
judging,I'm ccurious to see how you'll react to this RedShirt -
it runs diametrically opposed to everything you post and believe.The
Church's stance has been "changing" over the last 10 years, and I know you believe God and his church never change.I follow
the Prophets and Apostles.too bad ET Benson isn't here to witness
@RedShirt and patriotThis post is really late but if you are looking
for biological support, why don't you try looking at a lecture from Bill
Bradshaw given at BYU entitled, "Biological Origin of Homosexuality"It is not saying that all homosexuals are "born that way" there
are definitely some people that will experiment or choose the lifestyle, but
there are many that are born that way. Please listen to the lecture. It is
@Third Try Screen Name - Read the Proclamation of the Family and you will have
your questions answered. The Church is just asking for members to have more
empathy and understanding, but it doesn't change the Church's
viewpoint on traditional, eternal marriage.
Patriot- you comments are so ridiculous. This is like saying- There
is one group who suppresses their urges to fit the mormon norm,VS those who
choose to LIVE THIER LIVES and not hide who they are to fit the norm. You postulate that those who are "moral" will stay with the church and
not become those "militant gays: who act on their feelings... This is hatred, and completely intolerant. You are aware that much of nature
is homosexual, right? That the only reason you call it "immoral" is
because a supernatural, unproven deity has told you so. Or better yet, books
written thousands of years ago, in a different, intolerant time, tell you to.
This is ridiculous. I hope you also follow this law: People who have
flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God~Leviticus
21:17-18No? Ridiculous you say? So is the repression of homosexual
tendencies or the inference that they are immoral if they act on them.
With all due respect, I don't see anything new in this website. Still
proclaiming the idea of changing something that doesn't need to be
changed.If you are heterosexual good for you. If you are homosexual
good for you.Even though I consider this nothing new from the
leaders of the church, I have always found LDS leaders tobe respectful, loving
and genuinely caring. I don't see this site as bringing more LGBT people to
the church. However, I think is wonderful to see that the church is taking this
step to teach its own members to be more sensisitive with human differences.
Particularly with a subject that has divided so many LDS families."8.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated
correctly; ...." I think Christianity still base their aversion to
homosexuality in incorrect translations of the Bible. Unfortunately, this forum
doesn't allow a more clear explanation, but a more detailed study of the NT
and the historical background of its time would and will clarify our errors in
The Elephant in the room wants to know. If a GLT couple who is legally and
lawfully married in their state, are they welcome to worship in an LDS Chapel?
If this question were being asked in Canada where (gay marriage) it is the law
of the land would this be an issue still?
'Stay with us' and be mocked and abused forever. The church needs
you. You don't need the church.
Attraction does not demand action. Just as if one is attracted to another
persons spouse,The honorable thing is to avoid contact and get on withactions that God endorses, in my view.
I was introduced into homosexuality at 11. When reintroduced in college I fell
into deep depression. After surviving a suicide attempt; I found a (reparative)
therapist who was able to put many of my feelings into perspective. He pointed
out that it is perfectly normal for adolescents to want to be with their own
gender and that my feelings had been sexualized, etc. I did not choose to
be gay and I will never be “cured”; but I have felt too much
movement (not reversal) on the Kinsey scale to say that I am born that way. I
can choose to better understand my feelings and reject extremism. For example;
the current effort to ban reparative therapy because it “harms” gays
is like banning water because some people drown. Perhaps those introduced to
homosexuality through abuse could claim to be harmed by pro-gay therapy and ban
it too. I advocate more information. While it is tedious to deal with people who
view me as morally depraved, a much bigger problem are those who simply cannot
tolerate non-compliance to gay dogma (Ranchhand) or who think they are tolerant
merely because they hate (advocate banning reparative therapy) for fashionable
@Redshirt1701"so then you agree with me. Heterosexual people must also
control their urges the same as SSA people."I disagree that
it's the same since heterosexual people have an out they can use where they
can act on those urges, SSA people do not. There's a difference between
celibacy-til-marriage and celibacy-forever. I imagine straight members would
find the latter to be much more difficult to accept than the former."I remember some recent news stories about LDS SSA people that are married
and have children."We call those people bisexuals.@patriot"but when one speaks of morality alt134 they usually mean
the biblical moral code of chastity or the law of chastity"The
notion of morality is not owned by any particular religion. "define your moral compass according to the secular godless world then I
guess just about anything goes." NH, VT, and ME have the three
lowest crime rates and the three highest rates of atheism. Now, if you look at
all 50 states there's no correlation with crime/religion, but your notion
that secularists are immoral isn't backed by the data.
WE don't why know some have homosexual desires, but God has
given us weaknesses for a reason.God Has has us each trails ans
tribulation which we must overcome.YOu can let sexual desries and
behaviour define you, or you can let righeousness and love of God define you.The Choice is always yours.Christ has said, talking of
Marriage in Matthew 19 11-12:11 But he said unto them, All men
cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For
there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and
there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs,
which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He
that is able to receive it, let him receive it.I am not so sure some
should be demanding marriage, even Christ indocates not all will be able to
recieve marriage in this life.But we must stay steadfast in the
@patriot Humans are not animals? really in what fantasy world? why does
alt have to prove anything? you rely solely on your mythical (unproven) beliefs
to justify your position. I would say evidence that homosexuality exist
throughout the natural world is far more convincing anyway. Also when you talk
about morality you are talking abut the new testament and your interpretation of
it that is not necessarily what "people" talking about when they say
Patriot,Last time I checked, humans were animals. That's the
scientific family we belong to. We aren't plants, fungi, or bacteria. A
basic biology course would clear that up... I think I learned it in 7th grade.
Since your premise is faulty, I don't see the need to argue about the rest
of your point, which overgeneralizes too much anyway to be cogent. Due to DN's 4 post restrictions, this is it for me. I recommend you read
my third post. It very clearly explains my beliefs on this issue. If you
disagree with that, by all means go for it. I wish you all the best, despite
your inaccurate characterizations that I am Godless, secular-minded, etc.
re:atl134Monogamy? You mean an individual that has only one spouse
during their lifetime or at any one time? I suppose you could stretch monogamy
into morality since polygamy is morally wrong today but when one speaks of
morality alt134 they usually mean the biblical moral code of chastity or the law
of chastity as defined by the New Testament Lord which strictly prohibits
adultery and homosexuality. One can be gay but not participate in homosexual
behavior which was the point that I was trying to make. Most gays (not all)
reject any New Testament moral code or commandments. I believe Muslims, Jews and
most other main stream religions also prohibit both adultery and homosexuality?
Now if you throw out religion and define your moral compass according to the
secular godless world then I guess just about anything goes.
RE: Craig Clark, same sex attraction is not a sin. The sin is acting on those
urges." God doesn't need a self-annointed surrogate to certify what is
a sin. Let's leave it to him to judge. OK,You have heard that it was
said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone
who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his
heart( MT 5: 27-28)James 4:17 declares, "Anyone, then, who knows
the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." A sin of omission is
a sin that is the result of not doing something God’s Word teaches that we
should do.For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one
point is guilty of breaking all of it. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet
stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.God does grade
on a curve, you must be 100%.
re:ClaudioLast time I checked Claudio Humans are NOT animals.
Secondly you really have to show proof of HUMAN homosexual genes or other
homosexual behavior at birth and there is NONE that exist at least none in the
world of science. Set aside your political correctness just for moment and at
least consider facts. I understand the need for liberals to somehow re-write the
homosexual story all the way back to birth for the sake of "being fair"
or perhaps shaping things into their secular world but again facts are facts.
There is no human homosexual gene and there is no biological proof of
homosexuality at birth.... period. You are however free to believe in whatever
you choose I suppose.
Well, Ted, I don't see that in any way, shape or form in my posts, so I
don't know who you were directing your thoughts to. What I do
see from the new website and from the words of LDS Church leaders and common
sense is that those with SSA are indeed supposed to be "embraced,
supported" and treated as normal as anyone else with trials and difficulties
in life. I'm sorry you seem to feel otherwise. Good luck with keeping
that commandment...how does it go... "love one another as I hath loved
you," does that sound right?
I am glad we are receiving more clarification on this issue and more
exhortations to love and not discriminate because of someone's tendencies
and/or choices. We would all do better to love others and work on our own
imperfections before trying to "fix" someone else. Regardless of what
you believe, this is a big step in the right direction. @Final Word
- I think you may have misunderstood Midwest Mom's point. I believe she was
making a point against immoral hypocrites. You know, "this immoral act is
bad and it's disgusting, but the fact I'm cheating on my wife
isn't AS bad and disgusting." I think that's what she was saying.
Claudio,My point was that proving something can be seen in nature is
hardly good justification that such behavior should be embraced, supported, or
seen as normal.
The Final WordI think you missed what MW Mom was saying. There is
such a difference between putting yourself above others (as many LDS members do
- especially with gay people) and loving those brothers and sisters with SSA,
admitting that you cannot possibly understand what they are feeling or where
they are coming from. Accepting that they are different than you and that you
are not their judge.So many times we simply think that gays should
just avoid the temptation. YOU try being alone and unpartnered for the rest of
your life. It is not a natural state of being for most humans. We like to pair
up. That is a normal response and action. So they not only must fight the urge
to be attracted to someone of the same sex, they also must fight the feeling of
wanting to partner. Then they have to put up with us members telling them that
we too have temptations. It is not even close. It sounds like a hell on earth
to me...how about you?
To "atl134" so then you agree with me. Heterosexual people must also
control their urges the same as SSA people.To "RanchHand"
who is preventing a SSA person from getting married. I remember some recent
news stories about LDS SSA people that are married and have children.
@Midwest Mom"Let the hetero-sexual population make their own
houses chaste, before they try remodeling their neighbors."So,
only perfect people can help or give direction to other people?Well,
that leaves exactly zero people to help one another. Last I checked we are all
imperfect.The world and church are filled with imperfect people but
that doesn't render everyone incapable of helping, guiding, or giving
direction.A parent has faults/weaknesses so that means they
can't instruct their children on the same weakness? Perhaps it actually
gives them additional insight into overcoming or preventing that particular
issue. It hardly disqualifies them.Seems like someone might be
using the "other people aren't worthy to give me correction so
whatever they say is worthless" excuse.
I would encourage anyone posting on this thread to read over it and just notice
where the bitter statements are coming from, for the most part it is not the
LGBT poster and their supports.
Maybe it is just me, but, from after reading these comments I don't see how
anyone's understanding has changed.
@TallGuy1970;The difference is that the one CHOOSES to be
single/celibate.The other can NOT marry even if they want to.
Ted H,You're right, I didn't understand your response to
my post at all. I was refuting patriot's claim that SSA is only a learned
and chosen condition. What was your point?
Celibacy of any sort for almost anyone is a recipe for failure.
@virgil I understand what you are trying to say however I think the
churches sentiments have lead to great confusion within its own members and
very uneven interactions and views coming from its membership as is clearly
illistrtaed in these post (including your own).
Enough with "the bubble" vs. "mission field" mindset.
We're all part of one church. Neither is better than the other, no
one's experiences are better than another's. Each person for the most
part is trying their best to do what is right and to keep the covenants they
To "Craig Clark" that is what the Prophets of God have said. That is
not my idea.I am not judging, just relaying information that you
apparently didn't have.
Once again I am delighted with a statement by the LDS Church. This issue
absolutely requires compassion and sensitivity while at the same time
maintaining standards. I believe for the vast majority of gay people same-sex
attraction is something that just came to them naturally. I am thankful I have
not had to deal with that issue myself and my heart goes out to those who do
have to deal with it.
@Redshirt"To "non believer" what is the difference between
telling an unmarried heterosexual person to not act out on their desires and
telling the same thing to a person with same sex attraction?"An
unmarried heterosexual person is allowed, nay, encouraged, to date, and is
perfectly allowed to do those cute little things like holding hands. Would
unmarried homosexuals be able to those things that are not in violation of the
law of chastity without getting condemned by other members?
RedShirt,"....same sex attraction is not a sin. The sin is
acting on those urges."____________________God
doesn't need a self-annointed surrogate to certify what is a sin.
Let's leave it to him to judge. Does that sound reasonable enough?
@Claudio,I know my response will be like me responding to a wall,
but here goes. "There are homosexual animals, of virtually every
species, on land, in air, under the sea. That is scientific fact." Fine.
There are also countless examples in nature of cannibalism. I also
saw a nature show one time of the different documented cases of animals being
born with an extra head, or leg, or tail. Not sure what your point is by saying
homosexuality exists in nature..?
@non-believer,The same way wanting to rob a bank is not a crime.
But as soon as I rob a bank, I've done something wrong. Pretty simple
@patriot"will never accommodate anything regarding morality because
they don't believe in morality"That's silly. Many gay
couples who actively engage in actions not allowed by the church completely
believe in moral concepts like monogamy (particularly those that want same-sex
re: RAB "I hope the fault-finders against the church can likewise learn to
keep the past where it belongs." Well what's past IS past - where else
can it be. The problem is: to understand the present the past must be
comprehended - it's not going anywhere. That said, I also applaud the
increasingly moderate LDS Church.
RedShirt, I agree that there is no new information in this new
website. Yet, the church is making an emphasis that was not there before. I am a
Psych grad from BYU and I know that the church's institutions, with
ecclesiastical endorsement, sponsored everything from lobotomies to chemical
castration to coerced aversion therapy which is better known as torture, and
which had a high death rate by suicide. Just a few years ago, for most part, the
church and its institutions are putting those things away and adopting a
different approach: use only alienation, pressure and shame to suppress gay
expression. And now, we are adopting a new strategy that I heartily approve of:
love the gay kids no matter what. However, that warm fuzzy has holes in it; the
church would not approve even the use of the church's name on the
publication that is most circulated to help families with gay kids, the Family
Acceptance Project, which is great. I support this effort but I
believe it will fail without honest interaction and admission of our past acts.
One poster says that being gay sometimes is a choice and that they have a friend
who "chose" to be gay and to experiment with homosexuality. I would
argue it was just that, experimentation, not chosing whether or not to be gay.
Redshirt: Which doctrine is it that you say is perfect? The
Mormon's churches doctrine, which differs from Catholic doctrine, which
differs from....Are you saying all other religions other than Mormons have
imperfect doctrine? Or are you merely saying the Bible is the perfect doctrine,
which would then put into question the validity of the BoM, WoW, Pearl of Great
Patriot,I know this is useless, because talking to you is like
talking to a wall, but for those who honestly have questions...There
are homosexual animals, of virtually every species, on land, in air, under the
sea. That is scientific fact. Why would it be true that humans are the sole
outliers? Those who have SSA are born with it. It's not a question,
it's a fact. So-called conversion therapy does nothing to change this.
Are there examples of people with SSA who go on to live in a heterosexual
relationship? Yes. Does this mean they no longer have SSA? No it does not.
To "non believer" what is the difference between telling an unmarried
heterosexual person to not act out on their desires and telling the same thing
to a person with same sex attraction?To "Mungagungadin" this
is nothing more than a public statement of church policies that are over 20
years old.Show me a church full of perfect people, and I will show
you a church full of hypocrisy. The fact is that people are not perfect, but
the doctrine is.
@non believer, This is no different for anyone who does not marry. I know a few
people who are not married, and they likely will never be married. They have
desires, but are also counseled not to act on them. How is it any different?
I think this is a valiant effort that will fail. Most Mormons now process what
the church puts out through its news service as propoganda meant for
non-Mormons, and preserve for ourselves the ability to cherry-pick from
Conference Talks. Such talks lay the groundwork for rejection and even
alienation of gay kids. Mormons do *not* feel that public statements like this
overturn Conference material. This website will be suspected and for good
reason: it does not welcome interaction or comments. It does not invite those
who have been hurt by their Mormon families to come show their blood and scars
and be cared for as they should have been all along, before they were betrayed
by those who said they loved them forever. I'm a straight,
married person with only hetero kids and even I can see that this plan has big
I likewise applause the Church for this effort. I hope the fault-finders against
the church can likewise learn to keep the past where it belongs. The world,
including members of the church, gains better understanding of the plight and
struggles of those who experience same-sex attraction with every passing day. It
is disingenuous to continually condemn the church for unrealized insensitivities
uttered in the past.It does not matter if same-sex attraction is a
choice, genetic, or some mixture of both. What matters is that they are human
beings, just as deserving of our love, respect, and nonjudgmental mercy as any
other of us universally imperfect and sinful human beings. Many of them carry a
heavy internal moral burden that makes them all the more needful and deserving
of our mercy and understanding. At this time of year, we celebrate Christ, who
among other reasons, came into the world not to condemn the world. Anyone who
claims to be a follower of Christ therefore must likewise avoid condemning
others for their personal behavior. Rather, we should be seeking to lighten
their burdens and we should be empathiinge with their mental and spiritual
turmoil and social struggles.
I have a few questions. Beyond the attitude adjustment the church is calling
for, what is the position regarding those who cannot or will not refrain from
same-sex behaviors? Is is acceptable to date someone of the same sex as long as
you don't go too far? Does the church find it acceptable to live together
and remain celibate?We know the militant gays will not accept any sort of
therapy to change people back. How does the church feel about that?Can
people who are openly gay and in a relationship be baptized? Or must they
forsake the sin first?Still, so many questions.
So it is ok to have the desires, but as soon as you act on them, you are out? So
anyone Gay, Lesbian or Transgender have to be celebate to be a member of the
church? I do not see how this really improves anything?
Whoa, SS. My criticism is not towards the Church, which I love. I struggle
with the small minds of many who live in "the bubble" and who frequently
bless those of us in "the mission field" with their superior
enlightenment and knowledge. God loves us all. Only when this
world is over will we see with new eyes and understand the things that were
incomprehensible before. Unfortunately, in the meantime, those who have the
truth, frequently err in thinking that they know all truth and are the truth.
Some forget that the very ancestors whose coattails they hang onto were also
once converts and that we all must be converted, in one way or another. That
process is frequently messy and fraught with error. There is more than one way
to be a pioneer. I've looked at it and the website is wonderful.
To "Ernest T. Bass" where is the proof. I have never heard of a study
that states that being gay is an inborn trait. Last I know, the APA had no
idea.To "Craig Clark" explain why a person can be addicted
to food, or pornography. If you read the LDS church literature, same sex
attraction is not a sin. The sin is acting on those urges.
re:Ernest T. BassYou are partly right and partly wrong. It's
not a choice for some gays. They have developed same gender attraction for what
ever reasons no fault of their own. This however does NOT assume they are born
with same gender attraction. There is ZERO scientific evidence that children are
born with homosexuality so you are wrong to assume that Ernest. There is also
other gays that have indeed CHOSEN to be gay and to experiment with
homosexuality. I have a friend who sadly fits this crowd.
The gay movement is divided into two group - the normal gays and the radical
militant gays. The normal gay crowd - those that obviously have same gender
attraction but at least understand that there is a moral component to having
these feelings will stay with the Church. Elder Holland made it clear a few
years ago that a gay person is not denied any blessings in the Church including
temple blessings and can hold any calling so long as they keep the moral code of
the Church. The radical militant San Francisco gay crowd (for the most part)
will never accommodate anything regarding morality because they don't
believe in morality....meaning they have the secular Godless view of the world
that there are no such things as moral commandments. I am guessing the vast
majority of gays probably migrate closer to the left wing secular crowd.
It's not a choice. Just like people are born left handed (it's not
understood why a small minority are born left handed, they didn't choose
it, being left hand dominant just feels right), they are born that way. Treat
them with the respect they deserve.
Same sex attraction is something I don't understand but the old
explanations I learned in church won't do anymore. To explain it away as
evil, perversion, or satanic can't explain the attraction. There is greater
honesty and integrity in a same sex couple openly acknowledging their feelings
and desires to formally make their relationship a domestic one than there is in
a heterosexual married man who sneaks around to cheat on his wife.Let's hope this website is a step in the right direction for the church.
This is desperately needed in our current time. The culture is defining this
issue with a megaphone right now. Many of the definitions are flawed and
perverse. Church members often want to counter those cultural
definitions, seeing only extremities. But due to a lack of understanding, many
members throw everyone that has even the slightest inclination into category as
the extremes, essentially "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
Make no mistake: Many of our popculture versions of this attraction
are dead wrong.The concept that one has no choices because of
certain inborn inclinations. It lies about the lifestyle required of such,
pressing the idea that the only path of happiness for "those people"
comes by playing this role. The world's way is lazy and discriminatory
against gays. The Lord's way says all deserve compassion,
patience and understanding. We need to be understood, and those who do
experience SSA need to know they are not loathesome--they can love themselves
and feel loved by their fellow saints.
This is great. However, no matter what good the church does there will still be
those like "marxist" and "Midwest Mom" who won't give
credit where credit is due. There will always be something to accuse and attack
for them. @Midwest Mom, no one is saying that other people
don't sin, that's not the point of this website. Accusations and
playing the blame game is simply a way for someone to justify their own actions.
Church leaders have ALWAYS spoken out against the very things you have
Well, hold the phone. I think the Church not only needs to explain its current
position - it also, but won't or can't explain its past positions.
I think the greatest purpose of this website is to educate and soften the hearts
of LDS members who may not have personal experience with same gender attraction.
It is so easy to sit and pontificate on the weaknesses and sins of others. How
many people who have loads of counsel to share with the LGBT population are
guilty of oggling at women (or men) or watching soft porn on television or in
movies? Let the hetero-sexual population make their own houses chaste, before
they try remodeling their neighbors'.
Hopefully by reaching out the church will create an atmosphere that will make
repentance of homo-sexual behavior a clear and viable option, rather than an
individual thinking there is no hope.
This is fantastic. I believe there is great confusion in the Church over how to
love those that may be different from us. I really hope this helps to clarify
and improve attitudes.
Oh how I love this gospel and this church. I have a few friends that struggle
with same-sex attraction and I hope that this website can be a source of light
I'm the manliest man in the room, and I still agree with this.But. I
think we need greater understanding of several items in the church, and beyond.
It's quite amazing. The church says the same thing it's been saying
for years, and yet people who previously desperately wanted to be offended are
suddenly very happy. Strange indeed.