I have a good friend, an Hispanic woman, who was brought here by her parents,
illegally,as a child. She has since graduated from HS, is taking classes to get
her BA and has a good job but technically she isn't a citizen. She was
talking with her co-workers, all US citizens, about the election and about the
constitution. She, this undocumented worker, was the one who most vigorously
defend the constitution while her friends criticized it.
Reagan gave amnesty in 1986, he was paid back when they voted Democratic for
every presidential election since then. If the Republicans panic and
gve amnesty, it will be 12 milion more voters against them. It will make matters
even worse. We either stay as we are for 4 years, or more states
pass laws forcing Obama to obey our immigration laws. He is worried now about
how history will see him. His record of million of work visas (3.3
million 2012, 2.8 million 2010, 1.7 million 2009) and over a million green cards
each year, during 10% unemploymet doesn't look good.
JSB, in your comment you advised Republican lawmakers to use bill riders and
other tricks that undermine democracy and play the system to dismantle
immigration laws written and passed through negotiation and compromise by
Congress and not yet even in force. Then you warn Democrats that they can't
"continue playing partisan politics" lest "the whole country ... go
down the tube". You seem to be saying that only Tea Partisanship and
far-right skulduggery are good for the country. It's hard not to conclude
that you only consider people who agree with you to be real Americans. That
position has a long pedigree in US politics and society. Indeed, the majority
religion of Utah was considered outside the pale of real America for a very long
time; Romney's candidacy revealed the lingering power of that prejudice.
Last week's election results suggest that a position like yours may have
become politically untenable in the reality of today's America.
Wonder. I agree with you. President Hinckley said there is no place in the LDS
church for bigotry, racism and predudice. Many comments on here reflect those
attitudes. A caller on KSL,s Doug wright made the following comment. He asked
an hispanic co-worker how he voted. The man replied he was not yet a citizen
and could not vote. He did admit he would have voted Obama and that immigration
policy is the issue. It's time to end the tea party and return to true
conservative values as espoused by Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and Reagan.
CTR? that's what those coming here forgot to do. They made the decision to
break up their family. Right now 2/3rds of our green cards go to re-unite
families. Hardly fair to those who do not have family here. 4.3
million in a line last year. D&C 42: 79, 84-8684 And if a man or
woman shall rob, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land.85 And if he or she shall steal, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law
of the land.86 And if he or she shall lie, he or she shall be delivered up
unto the law of the land.You are telling the wrong people to CTR.
I like your ideas matt4226. Sounds sensible. As to 1 conservative --
You've never heard of the tea party? Where have you been the past 3 years?
I think you might be telling a fib. Here are some quotes from the comments
above that exemplify what I was talking about at 9:23 --From mohokit: "Why
the hispanics vote for Dems is plain and simple. Government handouts. They saw
the one and only Obama Claus. Free Stuff.” and “The huge majority
of Hispanics come here uneducated, unskilled and already convinced that
Government is where the goodies are.” From Say No to BO: "OK. We give
up. Take the country.
Are all you Utah Compact people happy
Last one out bring the flag.” From wrz: “And they
[immigrants] seem to vote Democrat. It's hard to run against Santa
Claus.” The implication is that Hispanics are too lazy, won't work,
just want things given to them, etc. And that they are some "other" who
is trying to "take our country away" -- as if it's only for
Anglo-Saxons I guess. It's insulting. Funny you don't think that it
"Matt" Why would they be interested in paying a fine in order to become
legal?It actually works out better for illegal trespassers if they
stay below the radar. Many of them file false tax returns claiming numerous
dependents, receive earned income credit, have a check mailed to them; and then
move to a new address. Last year that scam cost the U.S treasury somewhere
between 4-5 billion dollars (source: IRS)If the federal government
won't do their job now why would they do they be interested in doing it
AFTER a few paid fines?
Immigration reform is a very complicated issue. There are those who believe that
every person who is here illegally should be deported immediately and without
question (justice). There are those who believe that a path should be created
for people that entered the country illegally but who have lived here for a
number of years to become legal immigrants (mercy). There has to be a balance
between the two.For example, anyone who has gone through the legal
immigration process knows that it can take a year or more and cost a few
thousand dollars or more. I suggest a plan be created to allow people who
immigrated into this country illegally to pay a fine which would then give them
temporary status while they go through the same immigration process as all other
foreigners have to go through. At the same time ICE should continue to focus on
deporting those with criminal records and those that have recently entered the
country illegally. Finally we must insist that all employers use e-verify and
fine companies that don't comply.
"wonder"@9:23Why do you call your fellow man such bad names?YOU are the only one using those kinds of phrases.Does your
political/religious affiliation encourage that?I know MY religion
doesn't tolerate it. Neither does the party of Mitt Romney.I
don't think the "tea party" (whoever they are)does either.
@DavidNichols:"What kind of 'Saint' would Rip apart
good Christian Families, and Deport Parents away from their Legal Citizen
Children?"What kind of a person would violate the laws of a
neighboring country? And what kind of a person would leave their family behind?
Certainly not a Saint."Blessed are the merciful, for they shall
obtain mercy."Blessed are those who enter another person's
country LEGALLY and LAWFULLY for they shall reap the benefits of a free land
full of law-abiding people."For the poor migrating to America,
the 'System is Broken,' There is NO LINE!"If
there's no line, there's no space available, so stay home. Help make
something of your own country."Amnesty is the very Basis of
Christianity!"Entering another's home without permission is
the antithesis of Christianity. If you want in, sign up and get permission."What would Jesus do?"He drove the money changers
from the temple."C.T.R?"Violating the laws of
another country is not CTR. It's more akin to CTW.
@ David Nichols and Wonder: Thank you, thank you, thank you! You are voices in
an intellectual and spiritual wilderness.
@DN Subscriber 2:"Any form of amnesty will just attract more law
breakers who will patiently wait..."They probably won't
need to wait... The Obama immigration reform plan will make them all citizens as
soon as the cross the border."Frankly, though, Obama will have
our country so totally bankrupt and with a permanently broken economy by the end
of his second term..."Don't knock it. Obama's
solution to the illegal immigration problem is very clever and quite simple...
Bankrupt this country and immigrants will not only not come, they will start
leaving for greener pastures. Problem solved. This president is the smarted
we've ever seen... smarter even than Jimmy Caata.
@DavidNicholsYour data on the suffering of illegal aliens seems to lack
any body count of our own citizens killed by illegal aliens.Strange that
you would omit that.
Go ahead and hold onto the fantasy that all illegals can be rounded up and sent
back to Mexico and to the back of the line. That is not going to happen. Yes,
entering the country illegally is a crime.....a misdemeanor. Like I said, fine
them and make them legal to pay into the system. Regan did the right thing by
granting amnesty.....but the border wasn't secured to stop the flow of
illegal immigrants. Got to seal the border first.
@DN Subscriber 2 -- When in 4 years our country is not bankrupt,
"illegals" have not ruined the country, we are not all out on the
streets in abject poverty, the end of the world has not occurred, etc. I hope
that you (and your many equally distraught tea party types) will reflect on your
wild pronouncements and realize that maybe you were just a tad bit hysterical.
What kind of "Saint" would Rip apart good Christian Families, and Deport
Parents away from their Legal Citizen Children?"Blessed are the
merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."For the poor migrating to
America, the "System is Broken", There is NO LINE!For those
saying: "No Amnesty", I hope your Maker grants you a little
"Amnesty".Amnesty is the very Basis of Christianity!What would Jesus do?C.T.R?To: Good.
Translation- The Chamber of Commerce and a couple of renegades who refuse to
enforce the laws their jobs require them to enforce, and a few pandering
politicians want the easy fix- AMNESTY!True immigration reform will
reward those who play by the rules, and penalize those who break our laws.
Nothing else will be acceptable, or effective.Any form of amnesty
will just attract more law breakers who will patiently wait until they total so
many that another round of amnesty will be demanded.Frankly, though,
Obama will have our country so totally bankrupt and with a permanently broken
economy by the end of his second term that 20 million illegals will be the least
of our problems.
@ArizonaRed:"Register those here illegally, give them a social
security number so they start paying all taxes immediately..."That's right... give them jobs so they can pay taxes so the government
will have money to pay unemployment benefits for laid-off American workers whose
jobs they took. Good plan.@DavidNichols:"Over Five
Thousand Legal Hispanic Children are now Parentless..."They
should-a took their kids with 'em."Over Thirteen Thousand
non-criminal Hispanic Immigrants have been Incarcerated for years with out even
charges."If they came here without permission they ARE
criminals."This is America's Darkest Hour!"It's America's darkest four years... and we now have four more to
go."This great Nation of Immigrants was Built on Far Better
Principles and Values than to Rip apart Good Christian Families, and to Deport,
or Incarcerate Parents away fron their Legal Citizen Children!"This great nation is a nation of laws. Without laws we have no nation. We
welcome LEGAL immigrants. Those who come illegally and fall into trouble...
it's their own fault. Criminals often have families torn apart. Bank
robbers spend time in jail while their families pine for them.
@Fitness Freak:"How many 'new' immigration bill need
to be passed til the feds find one they'll actually enforce?"Enforcement of any immigration laws is a thing of the past... too many
immigrants who vote. And they seem to vote Democrat. It's hard to run
against Santa Claus."Implement e-verify (along with stiff
penalties for non-compliance)and 95% of the problem would be solved at very low
cost to taxpayers."Who's supposed to do the implementing...
the President and his Attorney General? Never happen as long as we have a
Democrat in the White House. They ride to power on the Latino vote. And the
lion's share of immigrants, illegal or not, are Latino.@RRB:"Average 31% vote Republican"Average 69% vote
Democrat. What percent does it take to win an election? Ans: 50.01%.@My2Cents:"Why is our presidnet so eager to make a 3rd offer
of Amnesty..."Because he wants their vote. Heck, he's an
immigrant himself."This urgency to destroy america is an act of
treason... justification for impeacing the president..."One
would hope, if the Republicans ever control Congress they might just impeach.
Keep it up tea partiers. Keep on talking trash about a growing segment of the
population. Of course everyone likes to be stereotyped as a lazy, filthy
moocher just because of their place of origin or race, so you're scoring
points left and right.
A a small businessman and conservative I have to say the Chamber is loose again.
What they are in support of is cheap labor. Shurtleff has adopted mexican
children so he is somewhat jaded. Democrats want permanent votes. Why the
hispanics vote for Dems is plain and simple. Government handouts. They saw the
one and only Obama Claus. Free Stuff. When the GOP can out give the Dems then
Hispnics will vote for them. Until then only the Hispanics who are informed will
vote for Rep. The huge majority of Hispanics come here uneducated, unskilled and
already convinced that Government is where the goodies are. Matter of fact Obama
had commercials on Mexican radio stations in Mexico telling them how to get
welfare once they were here. Look it up.
The world ( demos and repubs) are moving to the left. People with values are
being left behind to stand alone. LIke when they cheered here at the democratic
party tues night when a few states passed laws to ok gay marriage and smoking
dope. the world is changing and not for the better.
We gave out 3.3 million work visas last year. I can post the numbers and names
of the visas. Other companies in competition with Overstock use Americans to
fill these positions. It might cost a few dollars more an hour for someone with
20 years experience, but it makes our country stronger. Our
birthrate is right where it's always been the past hundred years. Once the
economy improves it will go back to where it's suppose to be. Then we
replace our own population. We had 100 million in 1920, by 1970 we
have 200 million, by 2000 we had 300 million. Most of the growth came from
immigration. Business does not want replacement growth, they want a surplus
labor bubble. 23 million Americans are looking for full time jobs. Let's
take care of them before we talk more visas. 4.3 million green cards and work
visas are out of place in this economy.
OK. We give up. Take the country.Are all you Utah Compact people happy
now?Last one out bring the flag.
@Utes FanI have watched it happen. Big companies lay off the IT staff and
hire "consultants" from India. They bring in a couple of guys at half
what our own people were making (and no benefits, to boot). The
"consultants" here are systems guys who spec out the projects and the
work is done in India.There are plenty of errors and delays but no one
cares because they no longer have an IT staff payroll.Engineers have the
same problem. When was the last time you saw a consumer product (appliance, TV,
computer...) made in the USA. Even the so-called "American brands" are
made overseas. They've got salesmen here and that's about it. With
repair labor at $75/hour nothing is worth repairing any longer.All those
were once jobs in the USA. You don't have an economy without the full
spectrum of jobs tied to consumer product manufacturing.
If we are going to have a line for people to come to this country, you
can't reward those that bypass the line. They need to be sent to the back
of the line. That doesn't mean you should stop treating them
like people. I am in favor of simplifying and fixing legal immigration.
"Election hastens urgency of Immigration reform."Listen all
ye "Saints".Since January 2008 and the start of the I.C.E.
Mass Deportation/Incarceration Programs: Over Five Thousand Legal
Hispanic Children are now Parentless, and in U.S. Foster Care.Over
Thirteen Thousand non-criminal Hispanic Immigrants have been Incarcerated for
years with out even charges.Over One Hundred non-criminal Hispanic Human
Beings have Died in I.C.E. Custody.Over Forty-two Thousand Deported
Hispanic Human Beings now lay Dead at the Harsh U.S. Mexico Border where I.C.E.
has Deported/Dumped Hundreds of Thousands of Human Beings into a "known Drug
War" with nothing, not even water, to be Killed, or to Die of the
elements.I sure am glad that Losing an "Election hastens the
urgency of Immigration reform."This is America's Darkest
Hour!This great Nation of Immigrants was Built on Far Better
Principles and Values than to Rip apart Good Christian Families, and to Deport,
or Incarcerate Parents away fron their Legal Citizen Children!We
can't figure out why are Nation is Falling, and "What Wrong Road we are
on?"Choose The Right?To: Good in America.
If you still think that Mark the AG is representing Utah citizens in any way
whatsoever, then you're both sadly and totally mistaken, but also woefully
naive. He has been working hard for Barack, the cheap-labor lobby, and Mark
himself . . . but certainly not the citizens of Utah. The ongoing invasion is
one of the elements that keeps dangerous people in power, and simultaneously
destroys opportunities and the livelihoods of our actual citizens. It truly is
"the other end of the stick," and there's nothing about what's
been happening that's either fair or beneficial for those who live and work
here, and pay taxes. The "free" lunch is costing the rest of us dearly,
and "immigration reform" (i.e., amnesty for invaders) isn't going
to help anyone but those who are gaming us continually.
Thing is, JSB, it is a big part of their plan in the Obama administration is to
collapse our economy so that the feds can take over thus taking more control
from the private sector......or pick the people THEY want to run them. Notice
there was never any 'big picture' plan from the left? I've
always disagreed with the republican party's immigration policies....in
part. For security reasons we must secure the border. Then a conditional
amnesty. Deport those felons who have committed murder, rape, or other serious
offenses. Register those here illegally, give them a social security number so
they start paying all taxes immediately, have a probationary period to where
they can pay off their fine for entering the country illegally after which they
will become full fledged American citizens. I understand that not all that are
here illegally have jobs. But it is far better to have those that are here that
have jobs paying into the system which they are using such as health care,
welfare, ect ect.
Since the January 2008 start of the E-verify *Attrition) Law,the I.C.E.
Deportation/Incarceration Programs, America has Faltered, it has Crashed
Economically, and Divided Racially.Every Stimulus, Bail Out, Cash
for Clunkers, Mortgage Program, ect. have come since January 2008 as a Direct
Result of "CHOOSING THE WRONG"and Ripping apart good Christian Families,
even Deporting Parents away from their Legal Citizen Children! It has only
been Treating the Symptoms!Fact: THe Hard Labor Immigrants gladly
did FOR America was the very Foundation of our Strong Economy, and the
twenty-five year period prior to January 2008 was in fact "The Most
Prosperous time in Total U.S. History."America is great because
it is good, when it ceases to be good, it ceases to be great."Alex De
Tocqueville, a very wise 1840's French Historian.This is our
I.C.E.'d Economy.I.C.E. "Put the Car in the Ditch."C.T.R?????To: Good, and Brotherhood, from Sea to shining
So, the chamber wants to repeat the same mistake McCain made in 2008. McCain
wanted to give amnesty to illegals but, he still did not win the election. You
chamber-types need to hear this message again -- NO AMNESTY FOR ILLEGALS!!
"The visas are not needed. CEOs simply want cheap, compliant,
"de-facto" indentured servants on visas. That is their agenda - not a
lack of workers."Utes Fan, you are 100% right. It really is
So what is the urgency to encourage foreign natioanls to invade the United
States and hand them $60,000 of our tax funds when the cross the border
illegally? Why is out presidnet so eager to make a 3rd offer of Amenesty when
the illegal aliens rejected the firts two offers under Reagan and Bush?The only reason to encourage invasion and occupation by foreign nationals is
to oppress the American and keep them in poverty with cheap labor and $60,000/yr
federal funding for illegal aliens. The Mexican population are proponents of
socialism and encourage our president in his quest for absolute Marxist powers
in the next year. Mexican nationals are the presidents chosen to destroy the
United States and its Constitutional government.This urgency to
destroy america is an act of treason and declartion of war on the United States
and justification for impeacing the president, vice president, and the czars or
the white house.
Latino's have never voted for a Republican president. 1980/Reagan)
35% 1984 (Reagan)37% 1988 (Bush) 30% 1992 (Bush) 25% 1996 (Dole) 21% 2000 (Bush) 35% 2004 (Bush) 40% 2008
(McCain) 31% 2012 (Romney) 27% Average 31% vote Republican
Same old song and dance from the same people. There is already a path for visa
workers/students to gain citizenship once they obtain a bachelor degree. Romney didn't lose because of the Latino's, he lost because of
the white vote in our Northeast and Northwest that never voted for him. Will the press blame Latino's if Obama messes up?
The difference between Arizona's approach and Utah's approach to
immigration is that AZ is attempting to enforce federal law, and Utah is
thumbing their nose at the federal law. For example, granting instate tuition
to illegal aliens (against federal law), having their own guest worker program
(another violation of federal law), having their own E-Verify, this list goes on
and on. Heck, we have cops like Shurtleff and Burbank that refuse
to enforce federal immigration laws. They argue that it is a federal
responsibility, but they don't apply the same twisted logic to bank
robbery, kidnapping, etc., etc., WHICH ALSO ARE federal laws - which they choose
to enforce.Apparently, they think they have some right to pick and
choose which federal law to enforce, which simply is not so!
There is nonsense in this article about the high-tech employers who want more
visas. I've been in high-tech for twenty years. By the skin of my teeth I
survived numerous high-tech bubbles and busts. Overstock has had a history of
layoff - even recently - and now they want more foreign workers? In the late 90s
and early part of the century, the USA allowed hundreds of thousands of foreign
workers on visas, yet there was more than a 10% drop in the number of US
citizens as the dot-com bubble burst.When there is a need for
workers, CEOs cry for more foreign workers. But the hiring phase will slow down,
and US citizens will be looking for work again - but the USA will continue to
bring in near 100 thousand foreign workers on visas - and US citizens will be
forced out of technology careers and into something less.Around
1999, about 20% of US workers in IT were on visas. Now it is close to 40%. Get
my point? The visas are not needed. CEOs simply want cheap,
compliant, "de-facto" indentured servants on visas. That is their agenda
- not a lack of workers.
We need good responsible legislation but every bill the house passes should have
attached to it a provision that revokes part of Obamacare. If they can't
reject the whole thing, they can dismantle it piece by piece and if the
democrats don't like it they can continue playing partisan politics and the
whole country can go down the tube.
How many "new" immigration bill need to be passed til the feds find one
they'll actually enforce?Implement e-verify (along with stiff
penalties for non-compliance)and 95% of the problem would be solved at very low
cost to taxpayers.Americans need jobs FIRST.