Comments about ‘Vice President Joe Biden blasted on abortion, contraception mandate’

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Published: Friday, Oct. 12 2012 5:22 p.m. MDT

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Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Chuch is church, and politics is politics. Any chance we can keep those separate? It would do our nation so much good.

Joe Moe
Logan, UT

@HUTTERITE. Keeping government edicts out of religion, in particular establishing religion, is the only constitutional issue. Wishing people would check their personal beliefs (be they "religious," "ethical," "moral," "fiscal," "humanitarian," whatever) at the door is dictatorial. Voters SHOULD vote their conscience, not censor their conscience to satisfy someone else.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Hutterite,
John Adams, you know, one of the founding fathers, 2nd president of the united states, said that our constitution REQUIRES a religious people; it is wholly inadequate for anything else. I give more credence to Mr. Adams.

Steve C. Warren
WEST VALLEY CITY, UT

From the article: "The vice president of the United States just made a moral case for murder. Shocking."

Please, let's stop saying abortion is murder. When people say abortion is murder, they're actually saying that the LDS Church supports murder because the Church says abortion is a permissible choice in four different circumstances.

When people say abortion is murder, they're saying Biblical prophets favored murder of the unborn because 1. they authorized stoning to death of adulterous women, some of whom would have been pregnant, 2. they ordered the slaying of non-Israelite pregnant women, 3. they advocated use of "poison water" to induce abortion in some cases, etc.

While I'm not saying I agree with everything in the Bible, I do agree with Mitt Romney's previous position of supporting Roe v. Wade.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Steve,
nice job parsing.

The LDS church condones killing in certain circumstances like war, death penalty in certain circumstances, etc.; just as it condones abortion in certain circumstances. But it otherwise believes killing and abortion should be prohibited

However, biden, his party, and their radical allies like NARAL want NO restrictions whatsoever on abortion. To compare the LDS stance on abortion to legalized killing is totally ludicrous.

Joe Moe
Logan, UT

@lost in DC

You should use more precise language: they want no GOVERNMENTAL restrictions on abortion. Some of them may still support efforts to educate or convince people away from choosing abortion depending on circumstances. A lot of people who are in favor of "freedom to choose" see abortion, at least in some casres, as immoral. But they don't want government trying to parse out the details and exceptions.

FYI, I am not saying my personal opinion on what abortion laws should look like; I am just trying to understand the viewpoint of many others out there, very probably including Steve Warren. There are quite a few things that I consider immoral which I nevertheless do not believe government should be involved in, so I can see the point of reference.

Joe Moe
Logan, UT

Another thought for "lost in DC."

Also, your effort to contrast LDS Church exceptions for abortion with killings justified by war and capital punishment is illogical. If we give full human status to a fetus, and then we take it's life via abortion due to rape or incest (most common justification for conservative thinkers), it is still an innocent life (it is not a victim of war nor being punished for it's own crimes). How does this make sense?

To me, the LDS Church policy implies that an unborn baby does not have full status as a human being in the world (else why could we allow it to be murdered just because its father was a violent felon?). If it has full status, then we and the laws of our land should reflect that, and we should protect the innocent, without exception (other than life of the mother, because essentially we're being asked to choose between two lives....a terrible dilemma). If the unborn does not have full status, then we need to recognize that there is much more complexity, and very likely government should have very limited say.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Joe Moe,
Are you then saying, as Mr. Warren said, that because the chuch allows abortion in some circumstance, we should have no governmental restrictions whatsoever on it? I think that is an illogical argument.

I am not privy to the discussions surrounding the development of LDS policy.

let me be more precise.

To compare the LDS stance on abortion to the legalized killing that is unfettered abortion is totally ludicrous.

Steve C. Warren
WEST VALLEY CITY, UT

@lost in DC

Here, again, is what I said in my first post: "Please, let's stop saying abortion is murder." In my view, few women who have abortions qualify as murderers nor do leaders of churches who allow abortions under certain circumstances qualify as supporters of murder.

Also, Roe v. Wade does NOT allowed "unfettered abortion," as you claim.

The abortion rate would be lower in this country if the Republican Party, Catholic Church and others did not work so hard to restrict access to contraceptives. In other words, if you really want fewer abortions, vote to re-elect Obama.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Steve Warren and Joe Moe: Now lets really take a look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stand on abortion.

It states that abortion of anykind is sinful with the exception of Rape, Incest or where the life of the mother or infant is at stake. It also states that in certain circumstances where the infant would not survive for any length of time after birth may be cause for an abortion.

However, it would prefer that where rape or incest is concerned that the child be taken to term but the mother is not under any sin due to the reason for the pregnancy. In other words the mother is sinless and may not have to take the child to term. She need not be punished for nine months carrying an unwanted child through rape and incest. However, where the woman chooses to have intercourse and gets pregnant then it is a grievous sin to do an abortion but still leaves the choice to the woman. She could fall under church discipline though. I don't know of any case where this has happened yet. The LDS Church has its own welfare system for placement.

Joe Moe
Logan, UT

lost in DC, I know I ramble, let me try to be concise.

Point 1: From the perspective of most conservatives, and in agreement with LDS Church policy, abortion should be allowed without stigma or threat of discipline in the case of rape or incest. To me, this signals an assumption that the unborn baby has no legal/moral standing as a human being, or else why would we punish the child (murder him/her!) for being fathered in an unfortunate circumstance?

Point 2: Given this apparent accepted lack of legal/moral standing as a member of humanity, why should government be involved in a very complicated personal and medical decision to be made by the mother?

I will share now, for the first time, my personal views: I am very strongly against abortion as a moral and ethical issue. I wonder if abortion is ethical even in case of rape and incest. Were it my wife or daughter, I believe I would recommend having the baby, with the option of putting it up for adoption if keeping it was too difficult. But these are hard questions, and I'm still trying to resolve him satisfactorily in my own mind.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

@Joe Moe
Thank you for stating my feelings and the feelings of countless others in such a human context.

@ Steve C. Warren

I totally agree with you, if the Republican Party and the Catholic Church stop interfering in sexual education and the access to contraceptive we would have much less abortions.

I have never met anyone who would be "glad" to have an abortion. I mean, other than in the minds of those who feel good about themselves by judging and condemning others.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: Bill in Nebraska,She need not be punished for nine months carrying an unwanted child through rape and incest? If you could ask the child (because of rape or incest) would he say abort me? You don’t think in these conditions he has the right to life?

For you (*God)created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.(Psalm 139:13 NIV). And now, saith the LORD(YHWH) that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him…,

3grandslams
Iowa City, IA

Abortion isn't about forcing your beliefs on someone, it is about protecting the defenseless. Since Biden believes that life begins at conception then he is duty bound to protect the innocent. This is important to conjoin with the idea that abortion activist first proposed that abortions would be very rare. I think abortion for rape, incest, or life of the mother are the "rare" exeptions. Both parties should keep their word. Abotion debate over. 33 million abortions since 1972 is not rare.

AZRods
Maricopa, AZ

I'm utterly amused at the plea to not call abortions murder.
Yet the blame for most of them is not upon the heads of those who request it, encourage it or perform it.
No, it's upon those religions who discourage it because.....they also discourage the use of contraceptives.
Wow! Because contraceptives are not readily available to every kid in school across America.

This is the perfect example of those who would ask for an abortion and all those who justify it, even if they have to twist the biblical history to prove it, to avoid any responsibility for their actions.
A true sign of today's heartless society.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@3grandslams
The nations in the world with the lowest abortion rates are in western Europe (either Belgium or the Netherlands is lowest, I forget which). Their birth rates are really low there too so it's not like they're choosing life more. It's that their pregnancy rate is so low because they expand contraceptive access as broadly as possible. Prevent unintended pregnancies and you prevent people from having to even consider abortion. The fastest way to lower abortion rates is to push things like Obamacare's contraception mandate.

non believer
PARK CITY, UT

George Washington: "The United States is in no sense founded upon
Christian Doctrine"

Well said my friend!

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