There is often a difference between prejudiced and disagreement with policies.
Particularly when those policies have a far reaching effect on those who are not
within the membership of, in this case, the LDS church.The LDS church can
(and has) participated in political activation that has resulted in a loss of
rights for many people. While this is their apparent right, that does not mean
that people will be left with a good feeling about things. It has definitely
created an impression and a backlash. People can be left with bad feelings
about policies that the LDS church has helped to create or with bad feelings
about beliefs they find hurtful. A mother can be left with a bad feeling about
having to miss her child's wedding and sometimes no amount of explaining of
doctrines will change this. There are many other examples as well. I
find that most people don't have a problem with religion itself, but they
do have a problem with absence of separation that enables religious people to
encroach (possibly with good intentions) on various liberties. As secular
laws become more secular(particularly in Utah), attitudes will change. Until
then, they won't.
I use to go next door and visit my neighbor who is an elderly LDS woman. Usually
we talked about family or geneology because we both like it so much. I would try
and help her with her yard. Nobody in the ward was doing it. The next day her
yard was filled with people. I knew what was happening from past experience.
They couldn't have the gay man over there! To make it short, they scared
her. They put the pressure on and one day I knew. I have had that horrible
feeling many times around LDS people. They put an end to our friendship. I know
it isn't her fault. I will always try and it will always hurt. The
prejudice we feel comes from people that we love and let me tell you, it is much
more than a few comments here and there. truly, I care! You know what I get back
in return? To most Mormons, that is insignificant! they would hear me say that
and it would mean nothing to them. We all need to take a look at ourselves. Why
do we hurt each other so much
The last acceptable prejudice? Try being gay in this state! I grew up Mormon. I
understand a lot, but I never knew how much prejudice exists among them. I just
didn't see it until I became an adult. Mormons have deep prejudices toward
gay people. You think people accept anti- Mormon comments. People in our own
legislature made hideous remarks about gay people that would make anybody
cringe! Yet nobody said a word. They try and pass anti gay laws. Do pass anti
Mormon laws? I can not help it if somebody has a belief that allows them to
think such offensive things about me. I agree with the person who said that
Mormons need to take some time and consider the point of view others may have. A
lot of the anti Mormon comments come from being treated like an outsider. You
don't have to give up your testimony to know an learn from others. Without
trying to be harsh, many of you need to reach outside your comfort zone. It
wouldn't kill you to do it.
I think there are two problems at work here:1. Latter-day saints are
very demanding, as far as how much they want people to to "get right"
about their beliefs. It isn't enough to know about the First Vision, for
example--you have to know the Church-approved fourth version of it, and any
other version is "anti-Mormon". It isn't enough to know about
polygamy, which was a core doctrine in the mid-1800's--you have to also
know that it was banned near the end of the 19th century, and that Mormons today
feel no kinship with the polygamist offshoots of their original religion. You
know what I mean? With every doctrine, you need to understand the
"counter-doctrine" that sprouted up later. That's a tall order for
a curious investigator.2. Many latter-day saints can't even get
their own doctrines straight. NBC's Mormon in America program illustrated
that perfectly with the whole "caffeine segment." Everyone on the
comment boards was roasting NBC for "getting it wrong," but it was that
active Mormon woman who was propagating the misunderstanding. Again, a tall
order for your average Joe.
I've often had that precise thought, only instead of "Mormonism"
being the last acceptable prejudice, I had "the American South" in that
spot instead. But I think they both belong there. People who are far too
enlighened to ever tell insulting jokes about this or that nationality, or
religion, or make racial slurs on any kind, have no problem whatsoever saying
nasty, insulting things about the South -- or about the Church. Where if
you're a Mormon, it's usually some snide comment about polygamy and/or
Joseph Smith, if you're a Southerner is's usually all about how nobody
has indoor plumbing, teeth, or an education. We would all do well
to remember that any and all prejudice & bigotry, even that which society
finds completely acceptable (like that against both Mormonism and
"Southernness," should find no quarter in our hearts, minds, AND in our
@ClarkHippo....you're taking liberties with my comment. A lot of people
don't take criticism very well, Mormons do it worse than most. Read these
Sharrona: You are speaking mainly of the final judgement. We all go to one of
two places after we die to await the resurrection. We have not as yet been
judged of our life here on earth. You are mixing the two which is the problem
with mainline Christianity. Alma spells it out quite well. Doctrine &
Covenants 138 spells it out even better giving us a clear understanding of what
happens when we die. That is why temple work is so important to give every man,
woman and child the opportunity to return to the Father. Your's is
completely and entirely a separatist father. One who loves just a few of his
children. Again until you really truely understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ
which you do not and most individuals don't you can't say it is wrong.
The Lord has spelled out what IS HIS church on earth and it is The Church of
Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints and none other.
Though it is true that most Mormons don't understand their beliefs and
teachings perfectly or live them perfectly; My observation is that most active
Mormons understand and can speak of their beliefs and the teachings of their
Church far better than most - not all - members of other churches.
RAB even if you did wake up on the wrong I still like your comments I agreed
with everyone of them
RE: RAB, Paradise where He said He would join the thief was NOT the heaven where
God the Father resides. Wrong,The word "paradise" is found in the
O.T.(Genesis 2:8 Septuagint) a garden(paradeisos,3857)in the east of Eden and
three times in the N. T: Luke 23:43, Savior on the cross says to the thief,
"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4,where
Paul alludes to his vision of the third heaven and which is paradise; and
Revelation 2:7,…” the righteous who partake of the tree of life in
the midst of God's paradise.” @He had not yet ascended to
His Father. That same day he appeared to his disciples(Luke 24:39).
Sometime during the day he went to heaven to fulfill the High priest(sacrifice)
type.And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill
the soul: but rather fear him which is able to Destroy both soul and body in
(gehenna) hell.(Mt 10:28) No second chance...his final doom is to
endure a never ending torment.(Mosiah 2:39)
@ ClaudioYes, yes I did wake up on the wrong side of the bed this
morning.@ SharronaNot sure what you are trying to say with all
those scriptures, but if you are thinking there is any iota of contradiction
with LDS doctrine, you are wasting your time. The LDS Church teaches that all
people, good and bad, will return to the presence of Christ (God, the son) after
mortal death. The place where we all will meet Christ has many names (Paradise
and Abraham's bosom to name a few). The righteous will be pleased and
joyous in his presence. The unrepentant rebellious however, will suffer the
anguish and torment for their deeds in His presence until they repent. When Christ visited Mary after His death, he told her He had not yet ascended
to His Father. We know therefore that this Paradise where He said He would join
the thief was NOT the heaven where God the Father resides. Christ will
eventually judge all of us. We will then all be resurrected and those who were
able to repent will join Christ and be with The Father forever, in heaven. (Just
like all those scriptures said)
I found this article very interesting. I was surprised to find that the author
was an athiest. It reminded me a little of Paul before King Agrippa. He said,
Paul almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. I feel the same way about
Joseph Walker.Every thing in the Universee testifies of the Creator.
Also, all the ancient prophets and the fruits of the church. Jesus said, By
their fruits ye shall know them. Finally, God will answer the prayer of faith.
Please let me know when you join the church. You think so clearly you deserve
RE: Serenity, I don't think that anyone could ever find a more true, a more
fulfilling, more perfect religion? Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state
of the soul between death and the resurrection--Behold, it has been made known
unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed
from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be “good
or evil,” are taken home to that God who gave them life?...
depart and to be with Christ… (Phil. 1:23). When Lazarus died, his
spirit “was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom”
(Lk. 16:22). For those who die in Christ, death is union with the Lord. Jesus
informed the dying thief, “Today you shall be with me in paradise”
(Lk. 23:43). At death, all who have lived in rebellion to God will enter a
spirit state of pain, trouble, and sorrow (Psa. 116:3). It will be a realm of
anguish, suffering, and torment (Mt. 22:13; 25:46; Mk. 9:48; Lk. 16:24; 2 Thes.
1:9; Rev. 20:10).
Mighty Mite: "Most mormons do not understand thier own beliefs and
teachings; those who do put thier head in the sand to stay apart of the
cutlure"Do you understand Mormon beliefs and teachings? If you
did, you would not say the second part. Mormon teaching is available to anyone
who wants to learn. The more you learn of it, the more you find out about God,
the teachings of the Bible and everything falls into place. Why would anyone
want to hide their heads in the sand over that? Me, personally, I would like to
shout it from the rooftops and tell people about my wonderful religion, the
truthfulness of the Gospel, the personal relationship we can have with the one
whose Church this is: Jesus Christ. Why in the world would anyone be ashamed
about that? I don't think that anyone could ever find a more true, a more
fulfilling, more perfect religion.
Southernmiss, welcome to Utah.There are two types of mormons, those
from Utah and those not from Utah. You'd never know that the ones from
outside Utah. They don't wear LDS on their sleeve. You can't help
but know the ones from Utah. They tell you every day. 'Exaggeration?
Yes, but it's true alot of the time.
J-Tx - Very well said. I think that is one of the best ways to put into
perspective that "mormon" doesn't classify all mormons into one
group. Just like any other group there are good, bad, and everything in between.
There are caring members, and there are judgemental members. There are honest
members, there are dishonest members. Just like any other group, but the body of
them is trying to do their best to do good.
Gee, RAB. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
To "Rynn" prejudiced LDS members are not just withing Utah. I know
people who have stated that they will never more to Utah because of the
"Utah Mormons", and they are members of the LDS church.There
will be biases and prejudices until people grow up and realize that it is a
waste of time.
@Noodlekaboodle and SchwaAtheism means "not belief in God".
Therefore, atheism says nothing about YOUR beliefs--only your contention against
other people's beliefs. You therefore should not be surprised when others
feel compelled to defend themselves.@A Scientist and kishkumenYou're not anti-Mormon, you merely accuse ALL Mormons of being
uninformed, delusional, hypocrites ignorant of their history. Whatever. An
extermination order (children NOT excluded) is a RATIONAL response to unverified
claims of a few disgruntled apostates? Good one.@atl134I've read the Koran. I've read the history. Stating facts is not
"justifying prejudice".@ owlmaster2So, some Mormons
say and do stupid things and that justifies bigotry against them? Whatever.@HutteriteSo, it isn't prejudice. It is just revenge for
Mormons having the audacity not to share your beliefs? Whatever.@UtahBlueDevilWho said they feel victimized or hurt? Maybe Mormons would
just appreciate not watching their beliefs being attacked on major mainstream
news channels.@sharronaI'd love to know what your point
is. So you can cherry pick out-of-context century-old unverifiable quotes from
church leaders whose comments bare little semblance to actual Mormon beliefs
then or now. Good for you.
@Claudio, Palintram, Instereo, utahboni & JohnHNews Flash: The article
is NOT saying there are no other groups enduring bigotry. It is addressing the
fact that attacks on Mormonism are the one prejudicial treatment still openly
approved by many major mainstream media sources. Those who verbally attack
atheists, gays, Jews, or Muslims are generally exposed as backwards extremists.
You obviously never watched MSNBC or read the New York Times if you do not know
which liberals are sniping at Mormons.@mightymiteYour insight
into millions of Mormon minds is astounding. I wish I had the ability to know if
other people understand their own beliefs and teachings.@falashaQuoting a deceiver, like the serpent, does not say anything about what aspect
of the words were the deception. The serpent's ONLY goal was to hurt God,
Adam and Eve. That goal was attained by falsely claiming that God's command
was motivated merely by a desire for exclusive power. In reality, God commanded
them not to eat the fruit because He loved them and the eating of it would
introduce suffering into their lives.It was a command based on love, not desire
for exclusive power.
Well of course it's acceptable. Nothing wrong with judging practices or
beliefs (as opposed to skin color, gender or sexuality). But that isn't
"pre"-judice. Mormons too frequently fail to understand the difference.
Noodle;Obviously the General Authorities live our gospel to a higher
degree than we rank and file. Otherwise, WE would be GA's. We
"neighborhood Mormons" do the best we can, and represent a cross section
of your standard imperfect, struggling, under stress citizenry. That means some
of us are bigoted. Some of us are racist. Some of us are elitist. Some
Liberal. Some Republican. Some Libertarian. But don't give
up on us, because we all possess the foundation to improve little by little, as
we strive every day to more fully emulate the Savior.
Mormonism is NOT the last acceptable prejudice. It's also quite acceptable
to be prejudiced against whites, Christians, straight males, and wealthy people.
But even Critchley gets it very wrong in many places in his article. The big
error on women and the Church is mentioned in this article, but Critchley also
wants everyone to believe that Mormons have a hidden agenda to bring back
polygamy as soon as we get the political power to do so. The whole thrust of
the article is really to make people think Mormons are strange. He even brings
up Mitt Romney and a possible foreign policy brouhaha with Israel because of the
Tenth Article of Faith where it talks about a new Jerusalem! I don't see
why knowledgable Mormons are finding any reason to cite the Critchley article at
I find it so funny that while these BYU philosophers take issue with the label
of post-Christian, they only do so by taking out of context. Professor Critchley
stated "Mormonism is properly and powerfully post-Christian, as Islam is
post-Christian. Where Islam, which also has a prophet, claims the transcendence
of God, Mormonism makes God radically immanent. Where Islam unifies all
creatures under one mighty God to whom we must submit, Mormonism pluralizes
divinity, making it an immanent, corporeal matter and making God a more fragile,
hemmed-in and finite being. And obviously, both Islam and Mormonism have a
complex relation to the practice of plural marriage.Yet unlike
Islam, for whom Muhammad is the last prophet, Mormonism allows for continuing
revelation." I acknowledge a general antipathy toward Mormonism;
some warranted, much of it not. But in the Mormon spirit of seeking out the
truth, I'd encourage Latter Day readers to read the source article before
opining too much on their victim status. When Romney spoke of the 47%, did he
@Dennis 5:57You said - "The one thing the Church lacks is the
ability to accept criticism."With all due respect, you've
got to be kidding me. Ever since 1830, the LDS Church has been
getting criticized from all sides. We've weathered attacks from the left
and from the right, from Christian and atheist alike. Every General Conference,
building dedication and Manti or Hill Cumorah pageant, the presence of those
eager to attack the LDS Church through pamphlets, street signs and other means
has become practically routine. In fact, if LDS people were to
attend one of these events and no protestors showed up, we would wonder what was
wrong. You seem to indicate the LDS Church is the only group of
people who get their knickers in a twist when they hear something they
don't like from a critic. Care for a rebuttal? The upcoming
film "The Master" has been roundly attacked by the Church of
Scientology, even though the film never mentions Scientology or L. Ron Hubbard.
And that's only one example of how some in Scientology angrily deals with
their critics or those who may misinterpret them.
@SelectionCountThe article makes no assersion that other religions or
groups aren't still discriminated against. Just that with every other
group and religion, it is not acceptable to do so (society at minimum will frown
on it, and in some cases raging hysteria will ensue). On the other hand, it
seems that society has no problems with prejudicial words or actions towards
RE:Jared", Most Mormons do not understand their own beliefs and teachings;
those who do put their head in the sand to stay apart. True, Mormons should be
informed about their prophets prejudice:Can you make a Christian of
a Jew? I tell you Nay, If a Jew comes into this church ,and the blood honestly
professes to be a Saint, a follower of Christ, and if the blood of Judah is in
his veins, he will apostatize.(JoD V. 2 p. 142)Brigham Young. I
never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they
may not call it Scripture, Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon and
it is a good as Scripture as they deserve deserve.(JoD v 13 p. 95 also see v.
13. P 264) Brigham Young
A1994,All the hate is coming from the left, who would never nominate
a Mormon for president? That must be why they chose Harry Reid as Senate
Majority Leader, nominated a couple to serve in the cabinet and sub-cabinet, and
sent quite a few off as ambassadors. Of course, the common theme is
that the Democrats didn't see the need to shout to the four corners that
these people were Mormons...because they saw them as humans, not a religion.
That sounds more like tolerance to me than the "hold your nose and blindly
vote R" definition.
Well, I just moved here, to "Happy Valley" this week! I have never seen
so many UNHAPPY, UNfriendly people in the course of a day in my life! I am a
mormon, and active, but when I tell people..clerks in stores, restaurants, etc.,
that we have moved here from the south they automatically assume we are not LDS,
and they are less than friendly. Now, I can handle this..no problem! I am use
to living in an area where I, and my family are by far the minority. We are use
to living in the mission field. But what does this say about the members here?!
In the south, at least where I am from, we speak to the people who
are in line at the store by us! We smile at people as we walk by them. The
store clerks are friendly..for the most part. We wave as we pass another car on
the street. We wave as we pass people who are walking down the street! I have
been here for 4 days and not one person has waved back, spoken back when I have
said hello, or even acknowledged that I am breathing.
Try living as a Pagan in Utah for a couple of months and then get back with me.
We'll do lunch.
@ Jared....you're right. Most Mormons don't have a clue what they
believe. Because the populace of the Church hears things they want to hear they
take the liberty to decide what doctrine really is. Case in point, read this
weeks story on Jesus had a wife here in the Deseret News. The doctrinal issues
expounded put me on the floor. The one thing the Church lacks is the
ability to accept criticism. Nobody is telling you how to live your lives, just
wondering why. When 17 different answers come from one simple question
it's not hard to see where a bit of criticism might be returned. Just
Re: NoodlekaboodleTrue. I think it goes both ways. A family friend
has a child whose father wanted the child to come live with him in another state
(outside of Utah). The child, who is 10, was interested in the idea of living
with his father but then said: "I don't think I could live in (said
state) though. Because there aren't enough Mormons there."The
child's mother has been quoted in the past as saying "There are no good
people outside of Utah." so it's probably her influence.Not to
say that all Mormons think this way, because they don't. But it's hard
to feel sorry for someone that has a superiority complex.
We should wear it with honor as befitting those who hold and declare the truth.
Jesus knew us and saw us. Seen in us, once again, is the fulfillment of
prophecy. It is the price we pay and we should be proud... "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for
theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that
endureth to the end shall be saved. And ye shall be hated of all men for my
name’s sake. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall
separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name
as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. And ye shall be hated of all men for
my name’s sake."
No, there are a number of other religious organizations which are subjected to
prejudical commentary deemed acceptable including Scientologists, Wiccans, and
other religious minorities. Mormons just happen to be the flavor-of-the-day
because of Mitt Romney. It all depends upon the group doing the discriminating.
We've already seen the fundamentalist evangelicals do their thing to
advance religious intolerance. If Romney fails in this election, the Mormon
Church will pass back into being an afterthought in most people's minds
except for those conservative religious zealots who have historically found the
religious to be suspicious. As for prejudicial acceptability, any
religious bigotry has always been unacceptible to some and unacceptible to
others. However, when politics gets involved, the so-called
"unacceptibility factor" increases among the less enlightened. Even
anti-Islam fever finds strong support by many in this country as evidenced by
Sharia Law inflammatory speech and the likes of people like Terry Jones, the
Florida pastor. So far, there have been no attempts to burn the Book of Mormon.
Perhaps there is not the level of acceptance as there is for anti-Islamic or
anti-Semitic behavior that pulses through the nation periodically.
The disdain doesn't even have to be political but in this and last
year's runup to the campaigns, it definitely was discussed more than in the
past 50 years. In the 2008 and this years campaigns, it has been discussed more
with Mitt Romney's Republican and Democratic circles. Why?Bias
and prejudice is still out there. It is controlled by law in the workplace and
in schools, which is also a workplace. However, tradition has kept it going in
the LDS community from people who don't want to know the truth.If you want to know what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints believe, read the Bible and Book of Mormon. There are truths in both
those books that would inform people that the Church is a Christian Church. If
it is of Christ, then it would have his name in the name of the Church. If it
is a Christian Church, it would believe in the Bible, as some who are not
Christian, also believe in parts of the Bible. However, the Book of Mormon is
another testament of Christ. One would have to read it to know the truth.
I believe the better name for the article should have been the last acceptable
religious prejudice. Joseph Smith wasn't the first martyr for religion and
he is not the last as many people around the world have been killed because of
prejudice against their religion and ethnic religious background.If
you are not to speak about religion and politics to keep family peace and
neighborhood peace, then this year it has been some politics that is religious
based, not too different than when John F. Kennedy ran for President in 1960.
The town I lived in was a Christian Cooperative and Mormons are still not
considered Christian in many of those people's eyes. That is a town of
under 10,000. Our chapel wasn't even finished when someone came in and
poured gas around the inside of the building and then lit it on fire. There was
no real investigation into the fire and arson even though a member of the ward
had seen a vehicle outside the chapel but didn't see anyone before she left
after practicing on the organ for Sunday services. We haven't
seen tar and feathers used much lately, good thing.
There is disdain for Mormonism from both sides of the political spectrum. The
difference is that the disdain on the right is rooted in ignorance. The disdain
from the left is rooted in intolerance. When Mitt Romney was part of a field of
8 or 9 GOP candidates, so many of the same people posting here said he'd
never win the nomination because the GOP is too intolerant. Well, he is the
candidate and the base is extremely fired up about electing him. The hate is
really coming from the left. (See Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC.) I know
how hard it has been for the evangelicals to accept a Mormon candidate, but they
did it. I don't think the left would ever dream of nominating a Mormon for
Mormonism has all the elements people love to hate these days:Wealthy
members (if they only knew how rare that is)Conservative political
viewsTraditional family valuesA presidential candidateStrong
faithBut we were warned that as the world turns more evil, we will
look more peculiar.
@Esquire: "When the LDS culture comes to their defense instead of hiding
out when religions are attacked, standing up for a principle that applies to all
faiths, showing courage, then come back to us."I defend
evangelicals, Catholics, Moslems all the time on this forum. The Deseret News
editorial staff and the LDS church is regularly taking positions to support
religious liberty and telling their members to stand up for the freedom of
conscience. We had a discussion here a week ago about the requirements of the
health care mandate and how they are a government restriction on freedom of
conscience, so, we are coming back to you.
Nah truth.... there is a lot of very thin skinned people claiming victim status
here. All this persecution going on in the heart of Utah... who would have
imagined. Out here in the Bible Belt, I almost never see it..... in fact I
can't remember the last time I heard anything "anti". And yes, all
our friends know are Mormons simply because my oldest has disappeared for two
years. If you all are so victimized, I would love to see how
someone has hurt you - personally.The idea that Mormons are picked
upon more than Muslims is pretty much laughable.
This is a silly article. I recall my fellow-Mormons raving over the Da
Vinci Code books & films, which contain material that is highly offensive
and can only be characterized as anti-Catholic. Also, framing the
"last acceptable prejudice" question in political terms is simple
posturing to score ideological points. Mormonism's detractors are found in
both major political parties, in the ranks of the very religious and among
atheists. The implication that all other prejudices are now unacceptable
across the board is laughable and does a disservice to our brothers and sisters
of other faith groups, ethnicities and nationalities who are often subjected to
the same types of mischaracterizations and misrepresentations we Mormons battle.
As a good Seventh Day Adventist friend said to me many years ago when I
thanked him for befriending our missionaries, "We cults have to stick
Of course it is okay to bash Mormons and the LDS Church.After all,
the evil, rich, white, uncaring guy who wears funny underwear and is a
REPUBLICAN is a Mormon, so they must all be weird, right?At least
that is what we will hear from the mainstream media until at least the end of
the election, or the end of his term if Romney wins.My personal
experience with members of the LDS faith towards non-members has been 100%
positive and respectful, and tolerant. Oh, that the news media and the left
(but I repeat myself) would behave the same way.
@ Hutterite. No one is pretending it's prejudice. How many religions can
say that in some colleges there is actually a course on why Mormonism is evil.
How many people are told that unless they repent and change their religion they
are sure to got to hell because they follow the devil and not God? How many
people are subjugated to lies, half truths and out and out blatant dislike only
because of their faith? How many people are out there whose religion gets
ridiculed by a Broadway play, such as "The Book of Mormon" ? The
examples you give are just one of the things I am talking about. You are
annoyed because Mormons don't shop on Sunday, for instance. That's
what they believe in and it irritates you. Why? Then you think that everyone
else is justified in disliking Mormons just because of what they honestly
believe. Sorry, I just don't understand this kind of prejudice and
@Atl124@A Scientist,and others,Those who complain about
others playing victim,seem to be playing the victim the most.
Re: sharronaNot everything in the Journal of Discourses is official
LDS Church doctrine (and the JofD cannot be used as indicative of official
church doctrine without corroborating and documented statements by church
presidents acting in official capacity), even if it was reported to have been
stated by a church leader (the issue is that many things in the Journal of
Discourse volumes were recollections of what was said instead of actual text of
what was said and in many cases are . I'm not denying the quote but the
issue with that particular quote is you have taken it out of context. FAIR has a
decent discussion about that particular quote in context and with other
statements from Brigham Young.In any case, that quote has nothing to
do with my comment. It's a red herring (and a misleading one at that).
I don't think we hide our heads in the sand. Sure, some may -- but then
that can be said of every group of people.Many of us simply
don't care to get upset, climb up on towers and cry fowl, or what ever.
There are a good number of us who have pretty good grasp on our doctrine and are
content to simply exist and do our best without feeling a need to advertise
whether or not we feel put upon or discriminated against.I have seen
many situations where derogatory statements about other factions in society is
rebuffed with labels such as bigot or racist, but to point a mocking finger at
the LDS faith is applauded at enlightening. Not always, and not by everyone,
but enough times that it is difficult to ignore all the time.
Try being an atheist, and see if you get persecuted for your religious beliefs.
Stop pretending it's prejudice. If you annoy enough other people they may
actually dislike you. Sorry, but you haven't done much for the gays,
atheists, sunday shoppers, agnostics, beer drinkers, democrats,
environmentalists, and a whole buch of other folks in utah and beyond.
I simply don't understand it. Why is it so acceptable to say and write
derogatory things about the LDS religion? Why isn’t there such a thing as
"Mormon Bashing"? Why can't hateful things done against Mormons be
a hate crime? If anyone said or wrote anything against the prophet Mohammed or
Islam, or Martin Luther King, for instance, there would be incredible
repercussions. But if anyone says anything about the LDS Church, it seems as if
some people join together and have a good old Mormon denigrating party. They
tell lies and half-twisted truths and no one objects. The only one they run
down more than Mormons is God. They do the same thing to him - deny his
existence while speaking about him with contempt. Of course there are the
Evangelicals who claim to believe in God and human love, yet have no problem
teaching false things about the LDS Church. Many of them have been taught that
Mormons are all evil and children of the devil and are condemned to eternal
damnation. Sorry, I simply don't understand This is not following Christ
who said to love one another.
The victim mentality displayed in this article is getting really old this year.
There are numerous people who have studied the LDS church thoroughly, and are
critical of it based on an accurate knowledge they have obtained by attending
the church and studying the religion. It is really arrogant to tell those
people that they are just being prejudiced.
A Scientist,If you ever get tired venting, I recommend trying humor
The adverse comments about Mormons come from one on one experiences with Mormons
that makes stupid comments or do outrages things. Want an example? How
about the neighbor that tells a Hindu family that in order for her Mormon
children to play with their Hindu children, they, the Hindu's have to have
the Mormon Missionaries come and teach them Mormon standards.Or the Mormon
neighbor that takes a loaf of bread to a neighbor that just moved in and upon
finding out the new neighbor of a different faith takes the bread back and
leaves.Mormon leaders don't have a clue what "real Utah"
Mormons are like.Some are way weird and judgmental.
To: Jared", Most Mormons do not understand their own beliefs and teachings;
those who do put their head in the sand to stay apart. True,Brigham Young
declared that plural marriage was a requirement for exaltation. On August 19,
1866, he said, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are
those who enter into polygamy" (JoD 11:268).
atl134 "I'm merely saying that people are going to react differently to
the South Park guys, who make fun of anything and everything, and a group that
is trying to brand a religion as murderers."So how will Al-Queda
react to the South Park guys if they show their stuff in the Middle East?
It’s not too surprising that Joseph Smith could envision God as a human
being who once went through his own mortal existence and who after his
resurrection went on to progress to the advanced stage of development he had
achieved when he created the heavens and the earth as described in the first
chapter of Genesis. It resonates because it encapsulates human aspirations to
reach heights that are unlimited.Joseph Smith once said that the
Book of Revelation was the easiest book in the Bible to understand. What a wily
fellow he was to cast out a challenge like that for men to shoot for. His
heavenly vision was in stark contrast to the more down to earth view of Thomas
Jefferson who once described the Book of Revelation as the ravings of a mad man.
Moreover, I find it remarkably hypocritical that Mormons claim they have a
history of being persecuted and discriminated against by "anti-Mormons",
and they are always "misunderstood" -- but a serious study of Mormon
history would support the contention that those who persecuted Mormons were
almost entirely FORMER Mormons!Even the infamously demonized
Governor Boggs and his "Extermination Order" was, upon closer
inspection, a reasonable and rational response to sworn affidavits by the
President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Thomas B. Marsh) and another
senior Apostle (Orson Hyde) who had regular meetings with as well as inside
knowledge of the threats and activities of the (shall we say "terrorist
group") Danites... with such information from top LDS leaders, Governor
Boggs had every reason to issue that order. But "faithful" Mormons NEVER
see that side of the history.If there are "prejudices"
against Mormons, Mormons go a long way toward facilitating such prejudices by
their own history, behavior, and persecution complex.
@RAB"Obviously, you just are okay with branding Mormons, but not
Islamists."No, I'm not. I'm merely saying that people
are going to react differently to the South Park guys, who make fun of anything
and everything, and a group that is trying to brand a religion as murderers.
I'm saying the scale difference between the two is why it's not
entirely useful to use as an example of 'see, they only condemn one thing
and not the other'. "I've seen enough anti-Mormon
propaganda to know that Mormonism have also been branded as a religion of
"murderous extremists""Yes, and I condemn that stuff. I
was LDS for several years after all. I'm fairly familiar with what gets
thrown in that direction. "Yet you do not have to read much
actual Islamic history to see plenty of killing going on."You
seem to be trying to justify a prejudice while opposing prejudices.@AZRods"that the LDS religion is clearly the most openly attacked
and criticized religion today."I'd say atheists and Muslims
are. After all, they're the ones people respond in surveys as least willing
to vote for.
I enjoyed Critchley's NYTs article very much. His main thesis, however, was
not that "anti-Mormonism" is the last remaining prejudice; rather, it
was that the (as he so eloquently put it) "gloriously presumptive and
delusional" and poetically and politically audacious theological challenge
of Mormonism is "entirely absent from the discussion" about
Mormonism.Critchley wrote: "It's really fine to say totally
uninformed things about Mormonism in public..."My disdain for
Mormonism is wholly and thoroughly INFORMED by decades of research, study, and
experience. So does that make it NOT a "prejudice"? Indeed, mine is an
opinion of Mormonism that is "post-judice" - I have judged the religion
and its adherents only AFTER taking it seriously and giving it the benefit of
the doubt.But Mormons persist in their prejudice of ME by calling me
"anti-Mormon" and a "hater", and they seem to love to play the
persecution card -- they tend to think that anyone who does not think and talk
only in superlative terms about Mormonism is "prejudiced" and
bigoted.But nothing could be further from the truth.
Underwear and drinking are common aspects of Mormons and very personal to the
members. That is why it is asked about.However, concerning the deep
doctrine, only LDS Church spokespersons should speak for all Mormons as to what
the Church believes.We believe in teaching by the Spirit, meaning
only what you know to be true. Governor Romney is Mormon but should only speak
of his faith as from what he personally believes...saying "I
believe...." rather than "we believe..." Unless quoting from the
Articles of Faith.Therefore, Mormons are not uninformed, and all can
speak to their own personal testimony.
@Palintram.Introduce yourself to Mormon history and you'll find
that religious discrimination against our people is equal to our claim.
Whow, when I read this I thought what about Jews, Moslems, GLBT, Liberals,
Democrats, Blacks, Women, and I could go on and on. When I look at the comment
section, I'm amazed at how much "Acceptable Prejudice" is shown by
people who profess to be LDS. Granted, I'm not perfect, nor are LDS people
(BTW, I'm LDS) but we aren't the last "Acceptable Prejudice"
we are just one of many and non of them are acceptable. The fact is if you put
prejudice on a scale, the LDS population gets far less from the world then other
groups and actually do more then their share of spreading prejudice themselves.
The bottom line is for me personally, I'm trying to be more open to
differences and more accepting of different people.
Mormonism-The last acceptable prejudice?Nope, As an out of the closet
atheist I have faced plenty of discrimination, much of it from Mormons
themselves. However, I will say that I have had the opportunity to meet some of
the high up leaders of the Mormon church. I respect those men, because they
showed much more respect toward what I believe than the average Mormon I meet in
my neighborhood. While they didn't change what I believe it made me wonder
where the disconnect between my Mormon neighbors and Mormon general authorities
Please, pause for a moment before you press the send button. Do you sincerely
believe yourselves to be subject to more discrimination than Muslims and Jews?
Are you kidding me? Do you really want to know about religious discrimination??
Try living in Utah as a non-member. Stop thinking only of yourselves. For a
'esquire' You did note that the article in the NY times was writtne by
a non Mormon right?And the topic of this article evolves around the simple
fact...that it's a fact, that the LDS religion is clearly the most openly
attacked and criticized religion today.So the role of our "whining and
playing the victim card" is effectively being done by educated, non
member observers who see the obvious misguided attacks from people like you.You mention that you know the history of your church and are mature
enough to stand tall and all that stuff. So please share which your
religion is. Because you are always chiming in onthese LDS articles, so I
have to wonder just how content you are that you feel the need to vent
your negative feelings toward other's religion.
[M5913] 4. But the serpent said, '(That is) not so! Because God himself was
a man like you when he ate of it, and he became God of all. Because of that he
said not to eat of that, because you knew that when you eat of it, you will
become a god, his equal. Because of that he said for you not to eat.'Stone, M.E., Aremenian Apocrypha Relating to Adam &Eve, The
serpent said, 'God wants to deceive you, for God was like you, because he
had not eaten the fruit. When he ate it he achieved the glory of Divinity. For
this reason he said to you not to eat of that fruit, so that you should (not)
become equal, sharers both of God's glory and his throne.'Transgression SS16-17,
atl134The point of the article is proven by your comment that, "of
course you react differently to a play that's poking fun than a video that
is trying to brand a religion as murderous extremists"Obviously,
you just are okay with branding Mormons, but not Islamists. What you attempt to
write off as mere "poking fun" is understood by many Mormons as ignorant
and heartless mocking, disrespect, and belittlement. I've seen enough
anti-Mormon propaganda to know that Mormonism have also been branded as a
religion of "murderous extremists". Even the first Sherlock Holmes story
branded Mormons as a murderous cult. Yet you do not have to read much actual
Islamic history to see plenty of killing going on.
Yeah, Mormonism is the last acceptable religious prejudice......Because no one ever makes jokes about Jews and money anymore, or claims the
President is a Muslim and therefore evil.Please, Dr. Faulconer, do
tell us which "liberals are sniping about Mormonism." Because all I
ever hear is how conservatives are not the biggest fans of it. If liberals are
the "God-hating, atheist, secular-loving" monsters you and your friends
portray them to be, why would they care about Mormonism more than any other
religion? You can't have it both ways. That, dear Counter
Intel, is indeed playing the victim card in an illegitimate way by a
conservative who clearly doesn't want to engage in any thoughtful debate.
It's just a matter of time until people embrace Mormons and accept them for
what they are. It's just the inevitable. No matter how many people write
and preach their hatred of them. In the end they will come out on top and be
embraced, while not giving up or compromising their values.You'll know who the people that are full of hate are by the way they
react to this statement. By their fruit ye shall know them:)
"Most mormons [sic] do not understand thier [sic] own beliefs and teachings;
those who do put thier [sic] head [sic] in the sand to stay apart [sic] of the
cutlure.[sic]"I was going to counter you, but on second thought,
I have to agree with you. Most members of the LDS Church do not really
understand LDS doctrine, otherwise we'd have no inactive members, 100% home
teaching (except in rare extenuating circumstances), no divorces, and virtually
no sin. We'd have 100% full tithe payers, weekly to monthly temple
attendance by all church members who could reasonably make it that often, and a
much larger full-time missionary force. So yes, you are right - most LDS Church
members do not really understand the doctrines of the gospel (and I'm
including myself in that group). Further, LDS doctrine is progressive and
additive, meaning light and knowledge are built upon light and knowledge; what
we know now is only a portion of what we can potentially know.
It's true that most of the world hasn't thought about or recognized
the Mormon view on man's divine potential. The most thoughtful people
however should admire the doctrine that man can become like God as the King
Follett Discourse explains. God our Father loves us with a more powerful love
than anyone can imagine. He wants the very best for us (which He has). That is
the purpose of the Atonement. "Be he therefore perfect even as your father
in heaven which is perfect." This doctrine is the most comforting part of my
This article and comments are out there. Most mormons do not understand thier
own beliefs and teachings; those who do put thier head in the sand to stay apart
of the cutlure.
@Esquire"Please stop playing the victim card."Oh
the ironyPlaying victim (both legitimate and illegitimately) is the
mainstay of the hard left - so apparently left wing sympathizers feel they must
protect the passive/aggressive power base by not allowing anyone outside the
prescribed victim classes to steal any victim energy. Having
legitimate theological differences is not bigotry - but why is it so threatening
to just admit that anti-Mormonism is morally no different than antisemitism. Does it really harm your power structure to admit that politically
correct popular culture can be intolerant?
LDS doctrine will always be different than the rest of the world, and therefore
will be unacceptable. Generally speaking, those who are informed about the LDS
religion and don't agree with or accept it will still treat the religion
respectfully. Those who are not informed will almost always accept false
notions about the church because they have no reason not to. It's what we
all do when we're too lazy or uninterested to study something enough to
draw intelligent conclusions about it. There just seems to be a tendency to
make rash judgments about things we "assume" we know something about
when we really don't.
I like the approach the Church has taken to the "Book of Mormon"
musical. They are buying ads in Playbill so people can find out what the LDS
really believe. I think that will do far more good than always bemoaning the
lack of knowledge of the Mormons.
Please stop playing the victim card. Stuff is said about other religions, too.
When the LDS culture comes to their defense instead of hiding out when religions
are attacked, standing up for a principle that applies to all faiths, showing
courage, then come back to us. In the meantime, you are being whining victims
without core strength and conviction. Is Mormonism a mature faith or not? I am
well aware of the history of my church, and it is time to grow up, get a thicker
skin, and be consistent in the application of principles we want applied to us
and which should also apply to others.
One of the problems lies with the existence of so many statements and other
writings by early church leaders that were "off the record" personal
opinions. Critics of the chuch obtain these statements and conclude that they
are official church doctrine, i.e., all the speculation regarding why blacks
were denied the priesthood. Much of what these critics use are these unofficial
documents. The challenge is in streering the debate toward official church
Part of the problem here revolves around this concept of being
"uninformed". For example, if so one makes a denigrating Mormonism about
polygamy, is that comment uniformed? Well, by the standard of modern Mormon
practice, it is an outside jab. Mormons don't practice polygamy, nor have
they for nearly 100 years. By the standard of theology, authority, and history,
the comment is quite well reflective of a Mormon idiosyncracy that most people
find objectionable, and therefore mock. The problem is that Mormons would like
to propose that they choose how the "outside world" should view them. No
one has that privilege. Now, if Mormons could show that the
"prejudicial" comments against them are in fact false (not just "no
longer practiced"), then in fact they may have an argument. But to do that
they would have to disavow polygamy, the racist policy of former years, etc. Of
course, for bigger reasons they can't do that. So, sorry, but you
can't have your cake and eat it too!
"the most interesting public conversation about Mormonism hasn't
occurred yet." I believe that is true. I also believe it is up to every
one of us to live what we know the very best we can so that we are in the best
position to engage in those conversations when they come. From experience, I am
much more comfortable, and much more able to know what I need to say, when I am
doing everything I know I need to do.
@deep in thought"a great article on Wall Street Journal yesterday (#1
read article) contrasting the outrage for the latest youtube anti-Muslim clip to
the embracing of the Book of Mormon musical."I thought that
article was silly because of course you react differently to a play that's
poking fun than a video that is trying to brand a religion as murderous
extremists. Now the New York Times article about the matter was much better in
my opinion while trying to make the same point as the WSJ one.
It's true. The things some people say about members of the LDS Church and
their beliefs in the media, would in other instances if said about Jews, Blacks,
or Muslims have serious repercussions. The media is very accepting of
derogatory comments about the LDS Church that they would be in serious trouble
if they said the same about Jews, Blacks, or Muslims.
There was a great article on Wall Street Journal yesterday (#1 read article)
contrasting the outrage for the latest youtube anti-Muslim clip to the embracing
of the Book of Mormon musical. It was very positive towards Mormons while
pointing out the ironies.