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Utah's new online gun permit renewal attacked, defended

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  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 20, 2012 10:59 a.m.

    Why should the government require you to have a permit in order to exercise a constitutional right?

  • reenie72 Sierra Vista, AZ
    Sept. 17, 2012 5:47 p.m.

    I am for people having their own guns. Guns don't shoot by themselves. Children should never know where a gun is kept. It's the owners responsible to make sure that no one else can find the gun, there aren't any bullets in it or with it and wherever it is, the container is locked and the owner is the only person who has access to it.

  • RShackleford Saint George, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 5:08 p.m.

    Can't see a problem. Those that have a CFP are actually having a background check daily (continually). If they are convicted of certain crimes the CFP becomes invalid instantly.

    There really is no difference in a paper application and that done online. The renewal is basically a fee to cover the costs associated with the administration of the permits and the continual background checks we as law abiding citizens have agreed to. The online renewal is efficient and more cost effective for the state.

    Also the CFP permit program is self sustaining (actually the state makes a little profit).

    Law abiding citizens, Packā€™em if you got em!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 4:56 p.m.

    Tis whole crock about people needing "training" is just that, a crock. The truth is a person needs very little "training" all they need is common sense and no amopunt of "training" will instill that in a person.

    All a person needs to be taught to do is how to handle the gun safely in the presence of other people. You know, don't point it at them, pay attention to where it is pointed, always treat it as if it is loaded, etc. From there just don't be stupid.

    As far as any sort of intensive training in marksmanship or any practice is concerned those are entirely unnecessary to simply own or handle a gun. Sure practice will make you a better marksman and more proficient, but thsoe are irrelevent to simply not being an idiot with your gun.

    Claiming those should be requirments for a permit are just more lame excuses to try and keep people from getting a permit or else make it much more difficult to get one. in otherwords it comes from people with an anti gun, anti concealed, agenda.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 4:22 p.m.

    To "Happy Valley Heretic" guns are not designed to kill either. They are designed to fire bullets. I could shoot blanks in my back yard all day long and never harm a thing.

    Bullets are designed to kill, not guns.

    If you are talking about buying permits to kill over the internet, take a look at the Fish and Game division. I can buy fishing licenses and hunting licenses without ever stepping inside of a government office. Those are licenses to kill various animals. I can even take a hunter's safety class online. That is equal to the course required to get the conceal carry permit.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 3:57 p.m.

    Are cars or windows specifically designed to kill?
    Is the only purpose for windows to kill?

    Unforeseen accidents happen, but leaving a gun loaded on a coffee table when children are about, is really not an accident is it?

    Gun safety by mail is no more sufficient than teaching someone to drive by mail with no car.

    as soon as you can compare Apples to Apples we'll talk.

    Flying Finn said:Thank goodness this isn't Chicago where only criminals carry handguns.
    No, it's Utah where firearms are left laying around for anyone who would like shoot them.
    How many fires were started in Chicago this year by 2nd amendment Enthusiast?

    The worship of firearms wrapped in the 2 amendment is not an admirable quality.

  • Flying Finn Murray, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 3:03 p.m.

    @ Happy Valley Heretic

    How much time should a smoker serve in jail when he falls asleep on the couch and his cigarette causes a fire that kills his children? Accidents happen and people die as a result. It is no more or less tragic when a child dies in a car accident as in a gun accident. Thank goodness this isn't Chicago where only criminals carry handguns.

  • Tequila Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 2:40 p.m.

    Cars kill more people than guns in this country. Imagine how many people we could save by not allowing Utah drivers to drive in other states or not allowing cars to be sold in Utah. The reason that the right to keep and bear arms is constitutionally guaranteed is that the framers wanted the people to always have the means to over-throw their government if and when it failed
    to provide what we are guaranteed by the constitution. Obamacare is unconstitutional because it
    violates our right to choose. It doesn't matter how Roberts bends interpretation to arrive at the wrong conclusions to cram down our throats. We are getting dangerously close to the reason for the right to keep and bear arms.

  • Tequila Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 2:13 p.m.

    Cars kill a lot more people than guns so lets take away your rights to buy automobils or your right to drive in other states on state licenses. The reason we have the right to keep and bear arms is that the framers of our constitution wanted to ensure our ability to overthrow the kinds of governments that we are getting dangerously close to having right now. I have serious worries about a government that would find Obamacare constitutional as it denies us what our constitution guarantees us, basically the right to choose.

  • Flying Finn Murray, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 2:00 p.m.

    @ Happy Valley Heretic

    When we start jailing people for allowing their children to falling out of windows to their deaths then, perhaps, we may consider putting people in jail for accidents involving firearms.

    After you are elected to the Utah legislature perhaps you can work to get our firearms laws changed. Doubtful, but always worth a try.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 1:47 p.m.

    A drivers license without practice? Really. I guess Joe Blow has never seen a teenager drive. OR an elderly person with lots of experience but slow reaction time.

    Bottom line, the on-line thing is faster, better, cheaper and they still have your finger prints on file if they need to compare you to the lastes serial criminal.

    Killing License? Get real. The only people that have those are the 00 agents.

    Seriously, the term Killing License is just a really dumb term. I don't feel that I have the right to kill anyone just because I have a Concealed Firearm Permit.

    I would consider, under the same logic, a Drivers License would definately be Killing License since here in Utah, way more people are killed by cars every year than are killed by Concealed Firearm Permit holders. Like say many to none?

  • Liberty or Death Taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 1:33 p.m.

    The 2nd amendment guarantees our right to bear arms. It is my opinion that there is no need to even have concealed carry permits, the 2nd amendment already provides for the right to carry. There are state and federal laws that prohibit the possession of firearms by those who have lost that right due to violating the law. Law abiding citizens should be able to carry without the need for a state or federal CCW.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 1:23 p.m.

    MajMarine said:
    "Beverly--the most recent incident involved the child of a police officer. How would you address that?"

    It wasn't his service revolver, it was another gun just lying about and was eye level to a two year old.
    How would you address that? Jail Time?

    Yes, why can't I buy alcohol thru the mail? I can get a permit that allows me to carry a weapon, made to kill, hidden from view, without showing the least amount of ability to use it.
    Why not offer driving licenses to out of state drivers who have never driven, At least they aren't in are state, right?

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 17, 2012 11:50 a.m.

    Re: Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    "Rifleman, Actually no you cannot renew your drivers license online or over the internet any more."

    From the Utah DMV web site updated Fri. 5/18/2012: "A Utah Driver's License can be renewed online, by mail or in person at any driver license office in the State. Every alternate renewal has to be made in person." If they've got it wrong someone should let them know.

    Those who don't like Utah's concealed carry laws really only have one option: They can complain about it while praying that the anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment crowd gain a majority in the Utah legislature.

  • EndOfAnError-01/20/2013 Atlanta, GA
    Sept. 17, 2012 10:37 a.m.

    I have a CCP issued in Georgia. There was no test of any kind other than a background check. I did not have to take a class. I did not have to demonstrate proficiency with a gun. I just paid my fees, gave some finger prints and received the permit about three weeks later.

    I am sure the lefties think I am a ticking time bomb and will just start shooting people at any minute. No, but I am ready should someone else attempt to do such.

    I have always found it interesting that the extremists on the left are so opposed to any individual having the right to carry a gun. Yet every time a criminal uses a gun to wreak violence upon society, the lefties immediate action is to call 911 and ask that someone with a gun come and save them.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    Sept. 17, 2012 10:02 a.m.

    "e. Fundamental human rights like self defense must not be subject to arbitrary restrictions. Would you support grammar and spelling tests for a "journalist" license, or some sort of Bible quiz before someone can be a Rabbi, Bishop or Pastor?"

    In short...yes. I do think journalists should be able to spell, Pastors should know the Bible they preach, and gun-owners should know how to shoot. Why is this a hard concept? While journalists don't have "licenses" they do have to have a degree. Likewise, most churches require their leaders to attend a seminary and graduate.

    Can you imagine if Driver's licenses didn't require actually driving?

  • Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 17, 2012 9:45 a.m.

    Rifleman,

    Actually no you cannot renew your drivers license online or over the internet any more.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 17, 2012 9:44 a.m.

    The Obama Administration demonstrated it's mentality with regard to private ownership of firearms with something called "Operation Fast and Furious". It resulted in the arming of Mexican drug cartels and the murder of an US border patrol agent. Everyone involved in that botched plan has since developed amnesia.

  • Flying Finn Murray, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 9:20 a.m.

    @ snowman

    Since the Feds can take away our firearms the anti-gun crowd needs to learn to deal with their unreasonable hysteria on the subject.

    When you drive a vehicle in Nevada they honor your Utah driver's license. Are you suggesting that we get a driver's license in each separate state we plan to cross through?

    Reciprocity is a big word that makes a lot of sense for those who understand it.

  • Dave Duncan Orem, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 9:14 a.m.

    Yes, public safety should trump saving a few bucks. But the evidence shows, overwhelmingly, that easy access to concealed carry permits reduces violent crime.

    Thus this should actually save a few bucks AND increase the public safety, by more easily keeping permits up to date for law-abiding citizens.

    The notion that this is somehow "unsafe" for the public is ludicrous. That's simply a knee-jerk reaction by those who only want the government and criminals to have guns.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 8:53 a.m.

    Aggielove

    "Utah.
    The last place the Feds want to go, to take away the guns."

    They won't take them away because they can't.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 8:26 a.m.

    I am a woman and I have a concealed weapon carry permit I got in Arizona. My husband encouraged it because he felt I should be more knowledgeable and capable of protecting myself if the occasion arose. He takes me target shooting, teaches me about safety and helps me feel more comfortable about the whole thing. The most important thing about being a gun owner is being a responsible one, knowing all about that gun and how and when to use it. I am working on overcoming my fear of what it can do but best of all I am learning the importance of being prepared and will know how to protect my loved ones, friends or neighbors if the situation should arise. The world we live in now, requires us to be prepared, to be wise with our knowledge and to use common sense.

  • Flying Finn Murray, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 8:13 a.m.

    @ Beverly

    There is no linkage between CCW (concealed carry) permits and deaths by firearms in any home, by anyone, at any age. So what is your point in mentioning two recent deaths of children, one whose father is a police officer?

    The homeowner in Springville who shot and killed the robber in his bedroom didn't need a CCW permit either. If you want to hear fear go online to youtube and listen to the woman begging the police to hurry because a man was kicking down her bedroom door.

  • Aggielove Cache county, USA
    Sept. 17, 2012 8:03 a.m.

    Utah.
    The last place the Feds want to go, to take away the guns.

  • MajMarine Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 7:55 a.m.

    "Two small children have accidently shot themselves with the "readily available" guns in Utah homes in the past month."

    Beverly--the most recent incident involved the child of a police officer. How would you address that?

    Owlmaster2--when you refer to "killing licenses", are you talking about concealed carry permits, or drivers licenses? More people are killed by licensed drivers than by concealed carry holders.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 7:54 a.m.

    I just mailed my renewal in last Friday. I wish I'd known about the online option before that.

  • LVIS Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 7:47 a.m.

    owlmaster2
    Kaysville, UT
    Utah has no business "selling" concealed carry permits in other states.
    It's illegal to buy liquor in other states and bring into Utah but Utah can sell killing licensees through out the United States? In Utah, money is a priority to safety.
    Our legislators should wear NASCAR type clothing so we know what corporations they represent.

    First--there are many states that "sell" CCP's in other states (Nevada and Arizona, among others). In fact, you can get a CCP from Arizona on-line (I'm not talking about a renewal, this is the initial issue). "Killing Licensees (sp)"?
    Wow. Hyperbole is the best thing ever, don't ya think? Any idea what percent of CCP holders commit "murder" vs non-CCP holders?

    And Beverly--are talking about Utah, or Arizona? BTW--"readily available" guns is not really germane to the subject of CCP issue or renewal. And as far as the rest of America thinking like this" Yeah, pretty much.

  • Tequila Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 7:36 a.m.

    Would someone show me where the authority comes from "constitutionally" that gives the state
    authority to control the peoples right to have, carry and control weapons in the first place.
    It sure doesn't come from the constitution which is the law of the land and has never been changed other than by so called interpretation by by liberal (another word for socialist)
    judges.

  • Beverly Eden, UT
    Sept. 17, 2012 7:33 a.m.

    On-line Concealed Weapon's permits, full support of the Tea Party, strong commitment to the death penalty, wanting all immigrants sent home, Utah is building quite a reputation for decisions based on fear. It was only a few years ago we gave up the firing squad. Do you think the rest of America thinks like this? Fear is driving Utah into the dark ages. Most guns are used against family members. Two small children have accidently shot themselves with the "readily available" guns in Utah homes in the past month. Our collective fear is driving decisions based on nonsense.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 17, 2012 6:52 a.m.

    Re: one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    "Everyone needs a gun?"

    No, and everyone isn't eligible to possess one. For those who currently posses a concealed carry permit online renewals make perfect sense. For those who qualify you can renew your driver's license online, and driving isn't even a right protected by the US Constitution.

    Thank heaves for the two recent US Supreme Court rulings that upheld individual American's right to own and bear firearms. (Note to the anti-gun crowd: One of those two rulings held that the 2nd Amendment does not apply to states and their militias.)

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Sept. 17, 2012 6:23 a.m.

    "but Utah can sell killing licensees"
    A bit over the top, ya think?

    "why are you so up in arms over a few gun permits when you support Iran nukes?"
    Over the top again?

    How about we stick to a reasonable and logical discussion of the related issues.
    On both sides.

    Procur - Utah is the reddest of the red states. I highly doubt that you can pin all of the many gun laws in Utah on "liberals".

  • owlmaster2 Kaysville, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 11:23 p.m.

    Utah has no business "selling" concealed carry permits in other states.
    It's illegal to buy liquor in other states and bring into Utah but Utah can sell killing licensees through out the United States? In Utah, money is a priority to safety.
    Our legislators should wear NASCAR type clothing so we know what corporations they represent.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 10:18 p.m.

    DN Subscriber: There are ranges everywhere where people can go practice. There are at least 8 in the county where I live

  • ImaCaMan Oceanside, CA
    Sept. 16, 2012 9:39 p.m.

    Re: Truth
    Why don't you try seeking the truth before spouting off. You sound just like Willard. I'm a "Lefty", own five handguns and a shotgun and have a Utah concealed weapon permit and think online registration is a good idea.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 9:27 p.m.

    Re: "Do you consider a CCP requirement an "arbitrary restriction?"

    Of course it's an arbitrary requirement. It adds nothing to safety or security. It's designed purely to introduce a regulatory hassle into the process, in a vain attempt to mollify liberals.

    Since the system doesn't even pay for itself, and since liberals refuse to be mollified by anything we do anyway, the requirement should be done away.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Sept. 16, 2012 8:32 p.m.

    DN

    You make some good points and some not so good ones.

    "No one would argue against the desirability for permit holders to practice to gain/maintain proficiency"

    Maintain proficiency is one thing. Gaining proficiency should be mandatory.
    You really think spelling and carrying a gun are in the same league? (and do journalists even need licenses?)

    Do you support drivers licenses without hands on experience? What is the difference?

    "Fundamental human rights like self defense must not be subject to arbitrary restrictions."

    Do you consider a CCP requirement an "arbitrary restriction?
    Should a law abiding citizen be allowed to carry into a bar?
    How about a courtroom? Should I have the right to ban them from my business? Church? School?

    Do you support any restrictions, license or training?

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 8:14 p.m.

    Whats wrong lefties......why are you so up in arms over a few gun permits when you support Iran nukes?

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 7:54 p.m.

    Live fire is not a requirement for several reasons:

    a. The potential for bureaucrats to impose ridiculous standards to prevent people from getting a permit.

    b. In 90% of cases where a legally possessed firearm is used to stop a criminal act, NO SHOTS ARE FIRED.

    c. Most self defense shootings occur at ranges of 7 yards or less.

    d. No one would argue against the desirability for permit holders to practice to gain/maintain proficiency, but not everyone has access to ranges to do that.

    e. Fundamental human rights like self defense must not be subject to arbitrary restrictions. Would you support grammar and spelling tests for a "journalist" license, or some sort of Bible quiz before someone can be a Rabbi, Bishop or Pastor?

    At least four states currently do NOT require ANY sort of permit or training for law abiding citizens to legally carry self defense weapons. There is no evidence that this has created more dangerous situations than among states which do not have permits at all, or states with permits and strong or weak qualifications.

    Quit hassling the law abiding folks and go prosecute criminals who are illegally carrying guns and committing crimes.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Sept. 16, 2012 7:21 p.m.

    Whats the big deal about on-line renewal. I fully support it.

    If one wants to question something it would be this

    "just because the state does not require shooting as part of the concealed carry training doesn't mean people aren't getting it. Many instructors, he said, include live shooting in their classes."

    How is the actual shooting of a gun not a requirement?

    That is staggering.

  • not here COLORADO SPRINGS, CO
    Sept. 16, 2012 6:51 p.m.

    @ hand:

    Because it is a cash cow, and it is way easyer to get one in Utah than in any other State.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 6:08 p.m.

    one vote
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Everyone needs a gun?

    No. Only the law-abiding citizens do. Especially since the criminal element couldn't care less about any laws, permits, registration, etc.

  • On the other hand Spanish Fork, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 5:55 p.m.

    Why is Utah in the business of giving residents of other states permits to carry concealed weapons? How does that advance Utah's interests?

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 16, 2012 5:51 p.m.

    Everyone needs a gun?