doesn't this "christian" church have better things to do? go knock
on doors. too much work.
Just let these people do their thing and have plenty of trash cans dedicated for
paper only recycling available. As long as they do not impede the pedestrian
traffic and do not cause a disturbance who cares?Every media circus
needs willing participants to be the 'clowns'. You get to choose which
part you play according to your behavior in the public eye.
This is the part when our Republican friends should jump against the
intervention of government attempting to silence a group of citizens.
I'm active LDS and am annoyed by "antiMormon" literature, but if
this group was really not impeding traffic, then I think they might have a
I think the part that bothers me is that the Main Street church wants to do this
during the open house of the Temple. I don't really care what you believe,
but this is being disrespectful to the LDS community. The perfect expression to
describe what they are doing is "raining on the parade." You want to
pass out fliers at a Mormon temple? Fine. But passing out fliers aimed at
deterring one from the LDS faith DURING what (for the LDS people there) should
be an exciting, happy moment is not only disruptive- it's insensitive. Pick
a different day to do it. That's all. Just pick a different day and
I'd be totally cool with it.
Correction to my previous comments. I spaced the whole realization that the open
house lasts for a few weeks. As long as the Main Street Church isn't there
for the entirety of the open house, I wouldn't be too bothered.
I agree with sammyg. I think there should be plenty of paper recycle bins
along the path. Everyone should take the paper, two or three even and
immediately tear it up and put in the waste bin. Once the flyers are handed
out the sooner the better, and discarded then they have nothing left but to go
home. They also wasted their money in printing cost. Sounds like a good plan
What about my right to "freedom from speech"? I can turn off a TV or
radio, or leave an internet website, but if I want to go to the temple, the only
way I can be free of talk I don't wish to hear, is for the city to protect
my right by requiring that I pass a certain route and that members of the
anti-LDS church be elsewhere for those who wish to obtain their material. Why
do they HAVE to be in my path to the temple? I can only guess, but I bet I
could guess correctly.
I wonder why the Main Street Church would want to make it's presence known
during another church's activity. I have never seen the LDS church involved
in this type of behavior. The pastor/minister should advise his/her congregation
to be respectful and think of another way of proselyting. OR, wouldn't it
be nice for this church to serve lemonade to those attending the open house
(without any self serving purpose)as a Goodwill gesture? That would say more
about how they follow Jesus than handing out flyers and would be so much more
The actions of this "church" are purely for harassment and hate. On
those grounds, they should be barred from any public sidewalk. Let's call
it what it is...
Sounds like a desperate attempt to obtain more money for printing and publicity.
Re: ". . . this is being disrespectful to the LDS community."Of course it is. That's the whole point.But it is protected
activity, so long as it doesn't impede traffic and create a safety
hazard.I gotta throw in with those who say, smile at 'em, take
their printed matter, and make sure there are lots of trash cans nearby.
Let them distribute their fliers. Never interrupt an adversary when they are
making fools of themselves. The ACLU can joust with other windmills.
I agree w/ the consensus thst it is a desperate attempt for publicity and bad
timing.If its deemed public access and the other church isn't a
nuisance then it s/b allowed. Bottom line; its the 21st Century I
don't need a flier. If I'm curious about something then
I''ll *use the google*
People do not have to take the flyer. If they do they can always toss it. Speech
issues prevail even that which is ugly.
When the Louisville Temple was to have its open house I informed my Jewish
friend that there would be protesters. He was shocked and rather angry. He
offered to go and protest the protesters.I thanked him but explained
President Hinckley's policy of kindness and tolerance. Still, he found the
idea of protesting the opening of religious facility to be very odd. I suppose
that this church would find the prospect of other religions protesting the
opening of their next building to be rather odd as well. No worries. That is
not "how we roll".May God bless them with love and
understanding. Us too. There is never too much of those.
We seem to live in a society that has taken "free speech" to the
extreme, so everyone has to endure those with differing, even spiteful opinions,
during what should be a time of rejoicing. It's like that Baptist Group
from the midwest that demonstrates during funerals of veterans.I
guess it's too hard for the courts to decide what may be offensive so
everything is allowed everywhere for any reason. Welcome to the seamy side of
living in a land where liberal judges have ruled the day for decades. Too bad
someone doesn't ruin a family wedding for them (though I'd hate to see
innocent folks suffer that) in the name of "free speech" and see how
they felt. Sometimes we need freedom FROM certain things, not just
OF certain things. At least this type of thing won't continue likely past
the open house because then the bang will be gone from such behavior.
I'm not sure I understand why there is such a negative reaction in these
comments. It's downright hateful toward the non-Mormons, it's
embarrassing. The Brigham City ordinance is clearly unconstitutional.
That's the issue. The same freedom of religion that has allowed Mormonism
to flourish into what it is today is now being squelched to curb the freedom of
people of a different faith. Agree or disagree with their message, they are
citizens of Utah, which last I checked is still a part of the United States, and
should therefore honor our constitutional tradition of permitting free speech,
press, and religion.
@ Liam_McPI'll take a shot at answering your question. Yes, it
is the USA and the Constitution is in play. There are also powers granted to
local governments to regulate activities that can be deemed to be in the safety
of the public. As everyone who has looked at US history knows, some times
there is an over-reach in trying to establish what is best; other times, not;
hence the lawsuit to let a court make that determination.That aside,
everyone also knows that few cities ever will have a new temple built in their
boundaries and in a place like Brigham City the vast majority of residents see
it as a time of rejoicing and spiritual renewal. To have a group hook onto that
with their own brand of anti-Mormon message just because its more convenient or
accesses a larger audience, makes one question their real motives. And to do
such a thing is less than classy or benevolent or even in the spirit of what the
"Bible" teaches.Agreed, the solution is to simply turn the
other cheek, but I hope you can see why this action is offensive to many.
Holy cow, for a state that wraps itself in the Constitution every chance it
gets, the citizens seem to be willing to discard it when it becomes an
annoyance. Freedom of speech is absolute, even if you completely disagree with
what is being said. Maybe it would be cool for cities in other states to limit
where LDS missionaries could proselyte, because the citizens don't want to
be burdened by religious speech that might cause them to question their
religion.The hypocrisy of the commenters (and I would guess a large
percentage of Utah's population) is astounding.
So I want to know exactly what you all are claiming is hate speech about what
they are handing out. the article states that their literature discusses the
difference between the two churches. Do they make false claims about the LDS
church, do they somehow degrade the LDS church? I honestly want to know because
nothing in the article seems to support your claims.
This is easy. If they are passing out fliers on a public sidewalk and not
blocking pedestrian movement then they are free to do so. If you do not like
that fact then that is your personal issue, that is why it is called a public
street. There is not just one religion so you have to get used to others pushing
their religion as those push the one religion yo believe in. As they say what
goes around comes around.
I think some commenters on here are either missing the point or just didn't
read the article. Free speech wasn't taken away. The church was given an
area to do their thing. The city rep said they were given access to the main
sidewalks bordering the temple but that wasn't enough for them. They wanted
to be able to confront people the moment they stepped off the buses. That kind
of attitude makes me seriously question what their motives really were.
@Liam_McP,I am no constitutional expert, but I always thought that
free speech can be limited if the speech endangers others, or is a safety issue.
It appears this is the issue, not the Mormons attempt to "curb the freedom
of people of a different faith" as you put it. You misrepresent it.That being said, unless there is a very CLEAR sign of danger, I say let them
hand out the bills. I am active LDS, and others' opinions of my religion
don't bother me, and they shouldn't bother any Latter-Day Saint.
@UTCProgress,No, Freedom of Speech is not absolute, and I reference the
Supreme Court ruling of yelling "fire" in a theater. I do think the
Main Street Church has a complaint, let them distribute their flyers as they
wish. I would however have officers there to monitor if they aggressively
pursue anyone into the street, hence the safety issue. If it's a safety
issue, the courts will rule in favor of the ordinance, if it's truly an
infringement of free speech they will rule that way.Let the courts
have their say.
The ACLU is wrong. Why are they so often on the wrong side?
I am an active Latter-day Saint. The Main Street Church should be allowed to
pass out the fliers. It is the same First Amendment that protects our right to
practice our faith.I've read the Main Street Church's
website. Let them pass out those fliers and let people compare.
I know they probably feel obligated to "warn" people about the Mormon
church and religion and that is fine if they feel its important and their duty
but to have a lawsuit going on does not make them look very good. It then comes
political and not so much about the religion anymore.I think they are not
showing much Christian love for fellow man OR even give a right for Mormons to
live their religion in peace (which they want to have them selves I am sure)and
to have an open house of our temple in peace We do not go and protest in front
of their church. We do believe and trust in the gift of agency that people are
smart enough to choose and see for them selves about what they hear and see.
Weird thinking and kind of backwards..oh well, the rock will roll forward
I for one would never pass out fliers from my church at another churches
opening. It is called RESPECT. First amendment rights or not, do unto others as
you would have them do unto you.
I am surprised that the protestors weren't in Church praying for the
victims of 9/11 and their families instead of protesting.
I guess they still haven't gotten over the fact that their men, Mike
Huckabee, Rick Perry and Rick Santorum are no longer a contenders for the
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates
of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship
how, where or what they may."The Brigham City leadership forgot
UTCProgress, I know in some places missionaries have to apply for and receive
permits to tract. If you read the article, they are allowed on the
sidewalks around the property, the only place that they are restricting them
from is the bus unloading zone on the west side of the property. with 18,000
people a day going through, the chance of an accident happening is real,
additional people congesting the bus unloading zones would raise the risk of an
accident occurring. to be fair in comparison, there are laws about
how close you can be while protesting an abortion clinic, across the street in
Vallejo, CA. which was upheld by the supreme court, so cities certainly have the
right to dictate buffer zones, and in this case it is pretty limited.The church has always been gracious to it's protesters and has always
encouraged its members to be civil and courteous to them. I have always
preferred a smile and "no thank you" as I passed.
If you've ever tried to attend a gathering at an Obama speech, or go near
the hotel he's staying in, or near any venue he's at, you will find
that there is a FENCED off area that protesters are allowed to congregate in and
show their "signs" in protest or support of him or his policies. This is
very common today - segregated areas to express your free speech rights. The US
Federal Government condones and practices this type of "permit process"
and allocated spaces for protest. Apparently this is not unconstitutional.
@AnthraciteAgreed. What my fellow Latter-day Saints need to remember
is, freedom of speech doesn't just include the speech we like, but also the
speech we dislike.I know many critics of our church do a lot of
stomping around whenever one of our leaders say something they don't like
(comments by Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks quickly come to mind) but for all
their marches, petitions and chants most of them know they can not take away our
freedom of speech or freedom of religion.I hope this Christian
church is allowed to pass out flyers at the Brigham City Temple and if
they're flyers turn out to state things which are either half-true or
totally untrue, as is often the case, they will only have themselves to blame if
one or two people decide to chat with our missionaries.
Freedom of speech is not "absolute" as there is a strong precedent
establishing that public safety (think falsely yelling "fire" in a
crowded movie theater) or personal property rights can supersede. Having said
that, I do think that while it seems rude to protest at an LDS Temple Open House
(or General Conference) typically it is allowed in certain public areas, just as
LDS Missionary Street Meetings are...which many might find offensive. The issue
appears to be whether or not the public areas in question can legally be
designated as not available for public free speech due to safety concerns. I
believe that the city has the right on a temporary basis due to the areas'
proximity to the shuttles' drop off zones. Maybe I missed it in the
article, but if the LDS Church applied for a city permit of any kind to allow
for a temporary "safety zone" then there should have been an opportunity
for an opposing viewpoint to be heard during the approval process. On the other
hand, the city might need to amend their approach if they are unreasonably
requiring permits for public free speech.
I was the LDS Bishop in our local area in England when we opened a chapel for
which we had been eagerly waiting. Two weeks before, a local "Christian
Church" went around the neighbourhood putting pamphlets through the doors of
houses, telling what, frankly, were untruths about the LDS Church. (Not
misunderstandings, but untruths.) I wrote to the Minister, asking why he had
spent money on what he had, rather than on preaching concerning Christ, as
Easter was approaching. His answer was, "WE don't want you Mormons in
our neighbourhood." I must say that if I had been this
Minister, with limited funds, I would have spent it on promoting Christ, and his
Atoning Sacrifice, to remind folks that Easter is much more than Easter Eggs or
the Esater Bunny. I would not have spread a message that followers of Christ
were actually divided amongst themselves, which is what many of the neighbours
thought after receiving them. Our Missionaries were told exactly that as they
knocked on doors in the area. Many people felt that it was a message that
showed didunity in Christendom, so had a negative response to us, but also to
his own Church.
Liam McP,Let me see if I have this straight: a church has open
houses to let members and nonmembers see the inside of their new Temples. A
group travels around the country protesting these open houses with signs that
decry that religion as false and mocking the ceremonies they will have in the
new Temple. Notwithstanding these activities over many years, church members
respond graciously in person and even on anonymous blogs such as this one. A few
express bewilderment and even distaste for what is going on.And you
call this "downright hateful and embarrassing" towards this group of
protesters?? Please explain your logic here...btw - I would love to
see what you think about our non reaction to the Book of Mormon play now
starting to tour the country.
Think about it from their prospective.They believe that they are
trying to save your souls.
this this were a muslim issue obama would be apologizing. interesting that a
real religion conducts itself appropriately by doing nothing. what some of these
posters don't seem to understand is that these same protesters are some of
the first to accept help from the lds church when they need it.
The government has the right to dictate where protests and such do occur. If the
President of the United Sates was to visit the protesters would be gievn a
protest area near but yet away from the venue. President Obama is falling over
backwards apologizing for the freedom of speech a former muslim had in producing
a video. So with said the government has the need to make restrictions for
Ute alumni, Braxton, Sammyg:By your logic, you would be ok if
non-Mormons accepted literature and Books of Mormon from missionaries, promptly
ripped the literature and book to shreds in front of the missionaries and making
a public display of the destruction and then threw them away in a trash can next
to the display of the missionaries. As this happened to me on my mission nearly
every day, I certainly took offense. What these church members are
doing is no different that what LDS missionaries do on a daily basis around the
globe. Yes, LDS missionaries do this in front of other churches, yes they
distribute literature that specifically points out the differences between the
LDS Church and the predominant church of the area. Yes, they do so on days that
are significant and sacred to those church-goers. Please explain
why these actions of LDS missionaries, which are not few in number, would be
perfectly ok but the actions by the Main Street Church are so horridly
Mightyhunterhaha,The gov't has that "right" because we
did nothing to preserve our own rights. I believe it is something that
Republicans call "big gov't overreach," unless of course it works
to your favor. President Obama is also doing nothing of the sort in reference
to the rest of your comment...it also is a poor comparison to this situation and
RobYour answer is right on the money!
RE:EnglishAlan, Speaking the truth in love(Ephesians 4:15), If a Christian truly
loves his Mormon neighbor they should share the Biblical Christ with them.The “pale” of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was
a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, same Greek word(Pneuma) . Not a
natural act as the birth of our children.”They tell us that
the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that
statement. The BoM teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”(
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation.., The Holy Ghost shall
come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore
also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of
God.(Luke 1:35 KJV) .. (Jesus)…born of Mary at
Jersusalem,[Bethleham] … who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the
power of the Holy Ghost(Spirit) and bring forth a son yea, even the Son of God.
( Alma 7:10). ... but before they came together, she was found to be
pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV
People and Churches do this type of activity at almost every LDS Temple open
house and dedication event. The Church doesn't stop them and it is the
government's responsibility if there is a safety and other item that is a
problem.For those that haven't been there, it is a small temple
and with a small parking area. The open house had two remote parking sites, one
on the north of town and the other on the south of town. Commercial tour buses
with nice seats and air conditioning were used at both ends to take people to
the temple parking lot and drop people off. Each bus was full, coming and
going, from both the north and south ends of town. There was a lot of activity
with the tour of the temple, visiting with friends that one may not have seen
for a long time and people curious about the temple and what is inside. As a safety person for the past almost 40 years, you would have to rely
on their public safety people to make that judgement about all the buses and
children (8 years old up) and adults in the mixture.
The truth is Jesus. People who are from other faiths, who are Christians,
don't circulate false information, they give the facts of your faith. Many
Mormons do not know these truths and are afraid to look into them for the fear
of their eternal life will leave them and their family. Christians pray that the
Mormons may see the truth and not become close minded to truth. We as the body
pray, hope and desire to share this truth of Jesus to you all. Without it,
Christ came in vain. God Bless
Hogwash. When we went to the open house, there was a man from another church on
the corner of the same block the temple was on, passing out fliers in full view
of temple security. In fact, he was chatting with them openly. Nobody stopped
him from doing anything. He even went out into traffic and passed fliers to
people in cars.
The Bible is more important than the Constitution, in my view at least; if I
had to choose between the two, I would choose the prophets. (same gender
marriage will force us to choose between the two.)
"if I had to choose between the two, I would choose the prophets. "Uh, which one? There have been lots throughout history and various
Dear ILOVEJESUS, You expressed your remarks so kindly. It is
interesting how your words fit both ways and were respectful. Many are worried
about reading the Book of Mormon until they do and find treasures there that add
to the beautiful scriptures in the Bible that we also love dearly. Time will
play it all out....and Christ will come and we will all cheer and hug each
other...I so pray. We each choose...each pray and truly connect with
Heaven...as we do we are blessed with His love and respect for each other. It is
a great moment for the city and it is wonderful that others wish to be a part of
it in whatever way they can. I hope those with the flyers come in first and
see...it will not hurt....it will bond us all to Christ to have another sacred
place to think of Him and His great love for us all. It tests all of our desire
to listen to the Spirit of Christ and be kind. Look into each others eyes..and
emulate His love...no words needed. Praise the Lord.
A traffic and safety problem? In Brigham City? Please, that's the most
absurd thing I've ever heard. I seriously can't believe the irony of
a bunch of Mormons being annoyed by being handed religious literature while
trying to go about their business. You know there are about 60,000 dedicated
Mormons doing that to people every day, right? I'm amazed that people are
willing to throw out freedom of speech in favor of freedom FROM speech for
something as simple as a minor annoyance. That's pretty scary.
I'm an active LDS member. Also a convert of many years ago. I understand
the opposition the Church faces worldwide because of religious fervor.The Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. The Supreme Court and other
Federal Courts determine what Free Speech is. Anyone or any
organization can restrict what they consider offensive activity. Yet the
Federal Courts must protect Constitutional Freedoms. the District Court that
has this case will render some sort of decision soon.I, for one, do
not belive or support the idea of a civil restriction on speech on public
property. Throughout America and th world domminant churches have great
influence. I'm from the South where Southern Baptists have the influence.
The Constitution al rights of all must be protected and those dominant churches,
wherever they are should proactively prevent any infringement on those rights.
\I call upon the LDS leadership to voice their support for free
speech in all public places in Utah.
So on this day when we have had an ambassador killed because of religious
intolerance, we have another local example to remind us that religious
intolerance is alive and well here in Utah. I think many people use religion as
a reason to find offense from someone else's actions. It seems that here in
the United States we should be more understanding of different opinions but I
guess there are many on both sides that want to take us back to a time when if
our honor was disrespected we'd fight to protect it. Doesn't sound
very civilized to me. The beauty of the Bill of Rights needs to be looked at
with the challenge of making sure they apply to all people.
The headline is a little misleading, since the free speech zone comprises the
north sidewalk of the property, so they indeed have close access to the temple,
just not in the entrance and exit area. This seems reasonable (the 'free
speech' zones at both political conventions were a block or two away from
the event), though I don't know if the ordinance itself is constitutional.
If they're on public sidewalks and not being disruptive or inciting
violence, members of this church have every right under the U.S. Constitution to
pass out fliers and even to proselytize. Whether their actions are rude or
disrespectful is immaterial as far as the law is concerned.The
government that has the power to keep this Protestant church from speaking out
also has the power to prevent, for example, members of the LDS church from going
door to door to seek converts. Step on the rights of these Christians, and we
step on the rights of all people of faith.
Freedom to speech does not mean that I can be free to speak wherever or whenever
I like. The government needs to restrict at times where people can speak; in
this case, they justifiably restricted people from flocking in to proselyte
where buses and traffic were coming in and out. I saw a traffic accident right
where these "alternative" proselytizers were wanting to stand. They had
their place, and it was in front of the temple.
Protesting a church?Really?
I went to the open house. It's a congested area and I think Brigham City
has a legitimate claim. This seems like a huge overreaction. These
people's rights to speech have not been violated, just their non-right to
cause disruptions to traffic flow. Maybe they don't disrupt traffic flow
that much...either way they have not had any serious violations of their rights.
This should be thrown out pretty fast.
I've met these jokers on two different occasions that stand on the corner.
The second time I met them, they refused to give me their literature. I had to
get their newspaper from a gal they recently handed it to when she said "You
can have mine." Also, they had some images that they didn't get
permission to use in their paper and thus are being dishonest with the original
photographer and the copyright holder. I told this to the men standing on the
corner and I also called the ministry who was printing this paper and informed
them of this. I asked them to call me back on this subject which they
haven't yet. And they claim Mormons are shady!
I hate to say it, but in this case I agree with the ACLU. The Brigham City
ordinance is overly broad and gives too much power to the city. It puts to much
emphasis on flow of traffic and too little on the right of individuals to
express their ideas. Free speech means you can distribute literature without
prea-approval of the city, and that is not being allowed here. I hope the
courts throw out the law as the unconstitutional restriction on individual
speech it is.
I saw them last week standing on the corner of Main Street with a big sign.
They were blocking the pedestrian flow and it was very difficult to get around
them without them having to step out into the intersection. I can see why they
were prohibited from handing out literature right in front it was just TOO
busy.Why is it my freedom to walk to the church of my choice without
harrassment doesn't mean as much as their freedom to hand me literature on
my way to church telling me I'm wrong for worshipping the way I do? How
many Jewish synagogs do they stand in front of handing out anti-Jewish
literature? How many Pentacostal churches do them stand in front of during a
Revival handing out anti-Pentacostal literature?
I hope Main Street doesn't pull a stunt like this at the grand opening of
Park51. It's one thing to print offensive anti-Mormon material. No one
cares about that. Pamphlets and media insulting Islam and the Prophet Muhammed
on the other hand, that gets people killed. By the way, why are we not deploying
whole divisions over to Libya right now? I mean, a 50 man Fast Company? Are you
Freedom of speech, Yes, 100% for that...but the problem here is SAFETY. When the
people get off the bus, trying to get to the temple gate butand are hamperedded
by 'whoever' it becomes unsafe... that is what this article is about.
The Church officials, the city and the police are doing their duty to protect
everyone... Why make this abour free speech?
I think some of us are missing the point. The reason that group was denied
access to those 2 areas was duet to safety. Safety should take precedence over
everything else and that include "freedom of speech". Now with that
being said, if the city did not allow that group access to distribute their
information because of some other reason, then the city needs to be held
This is about principle.It is disrespectful to act this way at this
type of event - no matter how wrong and false you think their beliefs are.To the LDS this is a sacred and special event. Let them enjoy it.Show some decency.A-C-L-U? J-O-K-E.
Amusing how posters "know" what's been going on but aren't
anywhere near here. The pastor and members of the Main Street Church
have been on the temple block nearly every day since the open house began. The
sidewalks surrounding the temple are completely open to them and they have made
good use of the areas handing out their literature. They have great visibility
and access to people on the North, South and East of the temple all day, every
day. It's like a "honk and wave" at 200 South and Main
street. They are directly in the path of the visitors arriving from all
directions. No one has told them they can't pass out their fliers. Shortly
after the initial open house began, their manner of "proselitizing"
became a safety hazard in the area where the busses load and unload. When that
problem manifested itself, the local authorities made the changes due to the
safety of all concerned.This has not been and is still not a matter
of restricting free speech. They're still free and they still speek! And
good for them. They deserve that right and it is being afforded them.
Also to be noted, it is Brigham City they are at odds with, not the church.
Public safety officials made the decision to change the acceptablee zones, as
has been done numerous times in numerous other venues. Completely acceptable
when safety is the concern.If you want to find a venue to throw
stones, you can always assume to know whats going on and always find a way to
make a big deal of it, so you have a target. Many often do, especially in these
The LDS Church leadership must enter this conversation with the City. They need
to clearly state the importance of Free Speech protections. It is the LDS
Temple that is causing all the traffic and congestion. Free Speech can and must
be honored on publ;ic property. Safety can be assured, with additional
rerasonable procedures.Again, the Church needs to come forward and
insist that Free Speech be honored.
How many LDS missionaries work within sight of another's church handing out
stuff, striking up conversations.. Most south American and European city squares
have a catholic church right there.
Now let's be nice. Agree to take their literature if they will take ours.
I really cannot understand why all these bible based churches just do not
consolidate into one church. What seems to be the problem?
To Claudio at 7:54 a.m.I've been a missionary, sent children on
missions, had numerous family members serve missions, and read many missionary
accounts including my father's experiences from 60 years ago. I've
never heard of any authorized church missionary materials that made comparisons
to other churches. I've never heard of missionaries injecting themselves
in the special events of other religions to proselyte and either tear down or
make comparisons to that religion. I call baloney.To claim that the
LDS church does the same thing as this group is either highly dishonest, or said
with embarrassing ignorance.
Also to be noted: "The complaint filed in U.S. District Court by the ACLU of
Utah on behalf of the Main Street Church challenges Brigham City's free
speech zone ordinance. It contends the law violates the Utah and U.S.
constitutions because it requires a permit for almost any form of public
expression and imposes civil and criminal penalties for failing to obtain
one." So it appears, technically, they aren't really
complaining about the ability or the inability to speak freely, (because that
right has NOT been taken from them), but the wording of the city ordinance.
whatnext:[Safety should take precedence over everything else and that
include "freedom of speech".]What a disgusting thing to say.
People die for freedom of speech. Cowards say garbage like this.
@K - if the Main Street Church was content to proselytize "within sight"
of the temple, do you really think there would be a lawsuit, or any objection by
the city, or anything for the DN to write an article about regarding the matter?
When I drove by - they were out their protesting, adjacent to the temple: so
exactly how are they victims if they are doing exactly what they claim they
Let them distribute their propaganda. It doesn't hurt anyone but them and
shows just how infantile they are. No harm, no foul.
Oh by the way, if they are a little church, just where are they getting the
money to file a lawsuit? I'd like to see their books.
Living in Brigham City near the temple, I drive past it daily. The members of
this BC church are consistently on two corners, although there are signs on all
the sidewalks around the temple declaring the sidewalks to be free speech zones.
Their main corner is about 20 feet away from where people board and disembark
from the buses. Often people are standing right next to the "pamphlet
people" and they have the opportunity, if they choose, to hand out
literature. Also, people are constantly walking past them because many people
walk around the block to look at the temple. It seems to me that they have
access to a lot of people. Automobile traffic is a problem around the temple. If
3 or 4 people are standing and not moving on the sidewalk with signs, it does
block the already sluggish flow of pedestrian traffic. There are two
sides to every story and it would be so much better to talk about it rather than
bring a lawsuit. Both churches and their members could do a better job at being
friends because we all have to live together and it would be nice to do it
Let's Debate,Thanks for your comment, though I must say I
don't appreciate being called a liar or ignorant when I'm neither.
I'm sorry you weren't made aware of the literature and activities of
my mission. We did in fact hand out literature that specifically compared the
LDS Church to the predominant church of the area. We also were instructed to
set up near these churches during holidays specific to those church's
beliefs so as to further draw contrast. I haven't seen the material the
Main Street Church is handing out, as I believe few on this board have, so I
can't say as to whether it was negative or not. The material I and my
fellow missionaries handed out was in the murky gray area; I understood
perfectly if someone was offended by it, because had I been a devout member of
that faith, I would be too. I still have the material from 2 years, so you can
feel free to inspect them yourself. It's not baloney.The
Church isn't perfect; the Gospel is. Way to be a great parent that
supports his/her kids on missions!
I'm sure the good citizens of Brigham City are firm constitutional
defenders. Except when it doesn't promote the cities real authority - the
LDS church.Can we ban LDS missionaries from sidewalks?
So here is an entire thread devoted to debating whether or not handing out
pamphlets promoting another religion near an LDS Temple is disrespectful to the
LDS Church and what the correct response should be.And many of those
who think the other church is rude and should not be allowed to hand out
pamphlets and are very upset over this, see nothing wrong with the video
insulting Mohammad and Islam.How do so many of you not see the
There's only one word I can think of for this church. JEALOUSY. Say no
re: Flashback 2Why stop there? Get a Big 5 accounting firm and let
auditing of both denominations begin.Oh, the glorious chaos!
Claudio - your response was kinder than I probably deserved, but I still have
trouble believing that missionaries have distributed literature comparing our
church with others, and badgering them during their religious festivities, for a
very, very long time. I do realize that mission presidents had much more leeway
to set their proselyting tactics many decades ago, but authorized materials to
be distributed by missionaries have been standardized for a long time, and very
little deviation is currently tolerated. I suspect any missionary doing what
you describe today would get himself in some trouble pretty fast.You're right - the Church isn't perfect, but it's whittling
away at it, and our missionaries are far more tolerant and service-oriented (in
a non-proselyting and ecumenical way) than they used to be. I doubt the Church
has ever authorized anything close to the "in your face" strategy
employed by the Main Street Church, let alone sued any city to do so. So, still
not really the same, or anything close to it, today or ever.
Kalindra - maybe you should point out all the comments where people said they
had no problem with the anti-Islam video. I obviously missed it.Sometimes people don't see the connection because there is no connection
until somebody makes one up.
Since this is an "open" house where people of all faiths can come and
learn, perhaps the real reason they want to be near the entry place is so they
can observe whether any of their members are curious about the temple. Or
perhaps they see this as an opportunity for growth because they could interest
someone because that someone is already interested in spiritual things. It is
too bad they have to resort to the courts for "relief" but it is equally
too bad that they want to horn in on another's event. I wonder when the
city ordinance in question has been used before.
@ DSB: So - many of the commentators on this board clearly state they consider
the pamphleting an attack on the Mormon religion.The video attacking
Mohammad and Islam is clearly an attack on religion.But I am making
up the connection.....
Let the judge hear the case in about three weeks and justice will be served.
Having been to the open house, it definitely is a safety issue to have extra
people standing near the buses as they unload. It's a very busy area.
Those exiting the bus immediately walk a few steps into the underground parking
area to begin their temple experience. Why aren't the protestors over in
the parking lots putting fliers on car windows or handing them to people as they
get on or off the bus? Seems like there are many solutions without making it
dangerous. We walked right up the sidewalk designated for protestors. It was
clear without one of them in sight. I want freedom of speech, and we can all
have it WHILE respecting others at the same time.
Let me be clear. LDS missionaries stand in front of catholic churches in many
cities to try to gain converts. They pass things out, strike up conversations.
They go into predominately catholic towns. Why can't another
Christian church go into LDS predominate town and do the exact same thing?
RE: zoar63 let's be nice. Agree to take their literature if they will take
ours. OK,In 3 Nephi 13:12, (Jesus)“And lead us not into
temptation, but deliver us from evil”(abstract).LDS scholar William
Hamblin. The evil one [ho poneros]. (John 17:15). This phrase is often
understood by modern Christians as a prayer for protection from evil in an
Abstract sense. But in its first century context, (ho poneros) meant the Evil
One=Satan.In Mt 6:13 NIV, The correct translation is “
deliver us from the evil one”(Satan). Also verse 13,the doxology in
3Nephi is not found in earlier and better manuscripts of the Matthew 6:13
doxology..Did Jesus teach the Nephites an abstract prayer? Or did JS
copied the poor KJV translation and later manuscripts.
K...Hellooo? Did you read the article? Have you read the posts? Let
me be clear. They ARE in a "LDS predominate [sic] town", they ARE
passing out pamphlets, they ARE striking up conversations. And, (once again)
their lawsuit is with Brigham City and it's ordinance regarding when, where
and how they can protest within the city limits, not the LDS Church.Kalindra: I have to side with DSB. Please let us know which posts in this
thread have even remotely referenced the video attacking or insulting Islam, or
inferred that it was in any way acceptable. I don't recall a single post
stating that anyone was not offended by the video, but then this isn't a
thread about that situation. However, if you'd like it to be, I'm sure
that can be arranged.Sharrona: Thanks for clearing that up.
@K - they can do the exact same thing, and they do. Nobody cares. LDS people
would support their right to do so, and the LDS Church has, in fact, filed in
court to support the very right of other religions to proselyte according to the
same standards of religious freedom that we expect to be given. These Main Street people aren't doing it the "exact same way"
that LDS people do, and you know it. I'd be interested to hear of a single
occurrence of LDS people congregating en masse at another church's event to
block traffic, demean and harass visitors, and create safety concerns. Just
one. It's ludicrous to call it the "exact same thing," and nobody
has suggested that the Main Street church be kicked out of town because the
populace is predominantly LDS.@Kalindra - you're not only
making up a connection, but you're making up the dots to be connected as
well. Not one person has said the Main Street church should not be allowed to
hand out pamphlets. Not one person has said it's not rude to insult
Mohammed and Islam. The situations are not remotely similar.
Sounds like, since the non-LDS Church hasn't even gotten a chance to share
their message at all, some--no, a whole lot--of folks are borrowing trouble.
Good gravy, let them get out of the gate before accusing these people of
something they haven't had a chance to do or not do, all right? This is
what my Jesus would do...or is the Jesus I thought was the same one for the LDS
Church I thought I belonged to not the same one some people posting here know
of? Or maybe I just am uninformed about Jesus.
UTCProgress,Your argument is fallacious. The constitution does not
protect all speech. Threatening violence is not protected. Obscenity is not
protected. The courts have ruled on both of those multiple times and have upheld
both as not being protected.Protesting a political party or a
company is protected. Protesting a religion isn't. "I protest the
existence of other opinions and beliefs". This is inherently hostile and
designed to disrupt. Disrupting the peace threatens freedom.An
argument against speech, based on the premise that "if it's designed to
disrupt the peace (as all "anti" literature (to any religion) is), then
it's not constitutionally protected"... such an argument actually
supports constitutional doctrine. Harassing religious services isn't free
speech, it's harassing. Protest outside the Church Office Building,
otherwise it's clearly designed to disrupt and molest.The
constitution doesn't protect various forms of harassment. Sexual harassment
is illegal, but not religious harassment? Our right to believe what we want is
our most sacred right. Molesting others over it isn't "free" but
it's fighting others over the very existence OF their freedom. Peace
couldn't exist otherwise. Peace dwindles daily because of intolerance of
Why do they think they can hand out fliers and basically protest at the temple
when people who hand out fliers or protest things about the church at the Salt
Lake temple are forbidden from doing so except on one corner.