I still wonder if it is wise to spend money to support those who attack the
Church. Still, on the whole, I suspect there are some people who will see the
Musical for the unjustified, false, non-grounded in fact, over the top
production it is and pointing them to where they can find accurate information
can not hurt.
Matt 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and
persecute you;Modern day translation - Buy ad space in the playbill
for those that make fun of you.
I think from the church's perspective this is a brilliant idea. Either
people are intrigued by the opportunity to learn about the Book of Mormon or
they may even start to think the church is secretly behind the musical, at which
point people will lose interest in it and it'll be forgotten. :)
Just one point - Scientist states that 8 missions have been closed
(consolidated) in the last 5 years.However other new ones have been
formed in the same time frame. (My son is serving in one - Nevada Reno.) Where
is that mention?Far too easy to interpret your intent. A half truth
is always a lie.
@atl134Life is full of choices and at some point everyone has to
grow up and accept or reject their childhood religious training. Its part of
being an adult. Sometimes it is NOT easy (Actually if it is is honest and deep -
it is never easy). Try being a homosexual who does not follow the
party line: I have lost good friends and have been disowned by peers because I
have not followed a politically correct path or regurgitated all the latest
dogma (which does not mean I am perfect, merely that I am aware). Where is your
sympathy for me (oh yea - non-existent) So basically what you are
arguing is that it is OK to be a perpetrator; if you first claim to be a victim.
Do you understand how insincere and dishonest it is to claim to be a voice of
tolerance while rationalizing acting out childhood resentments?Here
me clearly: If you were a victim: you should know better.
@Counter Intelligence"If you haven't noticed yet, ex's tend
to be the most bitter"You can't figure out why people who
are called insincere or dishonest could get upset at such an assertion? Heck,
some people lost close friends or were disowned by family members just because
they left the church. Good thing for me that I didn't have to deal with
that part at least.
@Bill in Nebraska"Sorry Scientist but the Church has never published
any of the resignations of individuals whether in the Church News or on the
website."He's not saying that resignations of individuals
are published. He's saying that if you use the numbers for last conferences
membership, then add in born in church numbers, add in converts, and then
compare that to the current membership number... that provides what you need to
figure out how many left or passed away (they may or may not give those numbers
too, I'm not sure). Basically if the church had 12,345,000 people and
250,000 were baptized either as converts or born in the church members getting
to 8 years old, but current membership is 12,545,000 you can infer that 50,000
left/passed away."You have never read the Book of Mormon with
real intent and though you may say you have that is a total misrepresentation
and fabrication of truth. "The arrogance it takes to suggest
that not getting your answer means someone is insincere is probably a major
turnoff for potential investigators.
@Blue AZ Cougar Bill in NebraskaThank you for your responses: I understand
your point, but there is the moral quandary regarding actual funding of
something profane - I guess LDS PR simply had to make a value judgement; which
is worse - helping to finance the musical or failing to counter it. Life
choices are not always clear@LValfreIf you haven't
noticed yet, ex's tend to be the most bitter
@Scientist,If you haven't noticed yet, anyone who isn't
'moved' by the BOM isn't practicing humility, doesn't want
to know the truth, or isn't worthy. Don't even fight it.
There's a reason those who follow the one truth don't consider
anything else could possibly be true ...
Bill in Nebraska,You presume to judge me? To judge my
"intent" and sincerity?Sounds like you failed to read
Matthew 7:1.I repeat, I have read the BOM over a dozen times, and I
have done so with a "sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in
Christ". I have even attended workshops and seminars at "the Lord's
University" from the top scholars in the LDS Church.And yet
there has been NO "testimony" or manifestation of the "spirit"
that the book is "true". My conclusion after all these years of study,
investigation, and living among Mormons is that the BOM is fiction, and poorly
written, boring fiction at that!For anyone to presume to judge my
testimony as "false" simply because I did not get "the right
answer" is appalling, offensive, and self-deluded.
RE: Mister J, I hope to see The Book of Mormon play at the Pantages(L.A) in
November with My wife an inactive Mormon and my Brother and sister in law former
temple Mormons who left the church. I left the Church when I became a Christian.
I’m sure we will have three different perspectives: Mormon,
non-Mormon(agnostic) and Christian.
re Shazandra"Fiction posing as truth will not get my time,
either."But, do you watch reality TV? "Now if
they would televise a Q&A about the book, that would prove how serious they
are about truly spreading their message."Interesting call &
not a bad one either.
I'm an evangelical and the Bible is my source of truth. There is no way a
vulgar play will get my time or $, popular or not. Vampires or not; not even
with my LDS neices begging me to "read the books, Auntie!"... Fiction
posing as truth will not get my time, either. But I do see the LDS
Church's response as a classy way to respond.Now if they would
televise a Q&A about the book, that would prove how serious they are about
truly spreading their message. People get "converted" to things every
day that have nothing to do with God. The issue is whether or not He is the
source, or one of the fallen angels...
re: Bill in Nebraska"The promise of Moroni holds true and has
for millions. Those who don't honestly don't want to believe it and
thus the promise is nill."Then, if you want it to be true then
it will be? Sounds like Confirmation bias to me.
Sorry Scientist but the Church has never published any of the resignations of
individuals whether in the Church News or on the website. Therefore, your so
called resignation statistics are probably as false as they get. Secondly,
consolidating a mission is not closing it. The numbers may be down but the
statistics continue to grow. You have never read the Book of Mormon
with real intent and though you may say you have that is a total
misrepresentation and fabrication of truth. The promise of Moroni holds true
and has for millions. Those who don't honestly don't want to believe
it and thus the promise is nill.
re: monthigosFunmy thing, insecurity?
@ Cats 6:24 a.m. Sept. 7, 2012And it could be that is the source of
their problems. In short, RanchHand (7:09 a.m. Sept. 7, 2012) is
I don't understand why these advertisements are necessary. Doesn't
this church already have a massive missionary force? Isn't it enough to
just live a good life and lead by example? Surely clever slogans are the
methods of corporations trying to sell a product, and I would think a religion
wouldn't want that kind of association. Wouldn't that money be better
spent on the Mormon church's humanitarian efforts? Surely those efforts
are far more moving than clever posters.
@Bill in Nebraska, "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most
correct of any book on earth.In 3 Nephi 13:12, (Jesus)“And lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”). In Mt 6:13 NIV,
The correct translation is “ deliver us from the evil one”(Satan).
Also verse 13,the doxology in Nephi is not found in earlier and better
manuscripts of the Matthew 6:13 doxology.LDS scholar William Hamblin.
"The evil one [ho poneros]. (John 17:15). This phrase is often understood by
modern Christians as a prayer for protection from evil in an Abstract sense. But
in its first century context,(ho poneros) meant the Evil One"=Satan.JS copied the poor KJV translation and later manuscripts.
Meadow Lark Mark:"A scientist. What is the source that you use
in stating the numbers that you stated?"The data come directly
from the official Church Statistical Reports in General Conference and published in the Church News and on the Church website.
Bill in Nebraska,I have read the BOM over a dozen times.The musical is WAY better!
"The LDS Church is not endorsing this play in the least just giving those
who really want to know the truth to get it"They may not be
endorsing it, but they certainly are supporting it financially. That's
what advertising dollars do.I do think it is a smart PR move. And
the LDS church is as good PR wise as anyone.
Not quite sure how to react to this. Usually the LDS Missionary Media
Division does not demonstrate a sense of irony. Seems almost as tacky as the
French Socialist Workers Party advertising in the Les Miz playbill or plastic
surgeons advertising in the "Phantom of the Opera" playbill. Or the
Witches Union advertising in the "Wicked" playbill.
Mukkake, nothing and I mean nothing will ever be better than actually reading
the Book of Mormon. That is the essence of it all. One must actually read the
Book of Mormon to become spiritually knowledgable of it. No movie or play will
ever replace that. Yes, there are videos and even pictures that portray life in
the Book of Mormon. Some may actually help in gaining a testimony of this
marvelous book but nothing replaces hearing or reading the actual book.That is why Joseph Smith as part of the introduction states, "I told the
brethren that the Book of Moromn was the most correct of any book on earth, and
the keystone to our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by
its precepts, than by any other book."
Why see the play or read the book?These guys are filmmakers and will
undoubtedly make a film version, which will be better than the either two.
Counter Intelligence: I'm speaking for myself as to why The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints elected to place an ad in the BOOK OF MORMON
play versus the others. I think the reason is really quite simple. It is a
satire of the BOOK OF MORMON itself and thus does a diservice to us and to our
beliefs. It makes fun of our missionaries as they go around proclaiming the
Gospel of Jesus Christ to all the world. In placing an ad it gives those who
wish to attend this spectacle a chance to get to know the truth other than the
satarical presentation they are attending. The others have nothing at all to do
with the Church so it means nothing to place an ad in them. The LDS Church is
not endorsing this play in the least just giving those who really want to know
the truth to get it. How many who may join is not the reason. IT is only a
choice. My opinion is that this is good Public Relations for the
LDS Church. Years back this play would have never even been seen on broadway or
@PGVikingDadNot entirely sure who you are referring to as
hypocrites, but I would say the LDS Church's reaction to The Book of Mormon
musical as well as the South Park cartoon series has been relatively tame
compared to other groups.When the South Park show did an episode on
the Church of Scientology, one of its cast members, Isaac Hayes, a scientologist
himself, left the show in angry protest. Appearently he didn't mind when
other churches were targerted for lampoon, just as long as it wasn't his
church.When the South Park guys made a film several years back
called Team America World Police, which in part lampooned liberal celebrity
activists, several liberal activists celebrities including Sean Penn demanded
the film be pulled. Tell me how that is not hypocrisy
It sounds like the best thing about the musical is the ad you'll see about
reading the Book of Mormon. Who cares about another modern musical that caters
to worldly tastes, anyway. But the Book of Mormon contains the word of God and
backs up the Bible 100%. If you read it, you'll recognize the voice of the
Lord, which is how my mom joined the church. At first she had too much respect
for the Bible to read that "kooky" Mormon book, but as soon as she read
the first page, she immediately recognized it as scripture. She knew it was the
Lord speaking, and she read the whole thing right through. Too many people
don't even bother to pick up the Book of Mormon, so they don't know
@ Counter Intelligence"If the LDS Church is ok putting an ad in
a playbill for a play that is noted for its vulgarity and profanity, how far
does that go? Are ads in Playboy OK? Is Family Guy OK? Is The New Normal
Ok?"I understand your question, but please understand that dirty
magazines or television shows have NOTHING to do with the Church and aren't
really the types of advertising avenues that would be most influential. People
who go to see the play understand that it's a musical about a religious
group, and are therefore more likely to be receptive to the actual Book of
Mormon. Someone reading a pornographic magazine isn't going to see an ad
and say, "ya know, they're right. I'm gonna stop looking at this
dirty magazine and go to church."Taking out an ad in the
play's program is not an endorsement of the play itself. Certainly there
are things in the play the Church wouldn't rubber-stamp, but they're
using that platform to their advantage and saying "hey, come check out the
real thing." I don't see an issue with that.
A scientist. What is the source that you use in stating the numbers that you
Only one word: AWESOME!
PGVikingDad said, "If you don't have the energy to defend others,
don't bother trying to defend yourself."That is exactly why
I won't see, "Sister Act". If the Catholic Church doesn't
like it, I won't endorse it either.
Matt and Trey have satirized just about every religion under the sun. Now
it's our turn, and I love the reaction. I always found it incredibly
hypocritical when a particular denomination would throw a fit when their beliefs
were toyed with, when South Park had already lampooned so many others without a
whisper of protest from the newly offended organization. If you don't have
the energy to defend others, don't bother trying to defend yourself.
@maximum"This is great. I bet "Elder" Parker and
"Elder" Stone never thought they would be such a great missionary
companionship."In this day in age all this exposure does it get
people to Google the church. If you think that's a great missionary
companionship ... try googling it.
@FTYou said - "Maybe they'll squeeze the ad right between
the ACLU and Planned Parenthood's."LOL! Love it!@A ScientistYou said - "So let's just wait and see how
the effects of these "Mormon Moments" and Public Relations campaigns
show up in the numbers."Personally, I don't look at LDS
Church numbers in terms of quantity, but quality instead.For example:- The idea that both the majority leader of the U.S. Senate, along with
the GOP nominee for U.S. President would both be active Latter-day Saints would
have been laughed at only a few years ago.- What about the fact that
a book series written by an active Latter-day Saint (Twilight) would become so
popular it would spawn a series of equally popular films? - And the
fact the creators of "South Park" would make a hugely popular Broadway
musical about LDS missionaries tells me the LDS Church has made and continues to
make an impact on American culture.
I do not know when the LDS Church hired an expensive Public Relations firm, but
there is no doubt they did it because of slowed growth and activity over the
past twenty years:- the annual number of Converts per Mission has
been on a dramatic decline, from almost 1,200 down to under 800, despite the
Church consolidating missions by closing 8 of them in the past 5 years.- FT Proselyting Missionary work is decreasing in effectiveness: over a 20%
drop in convert baptisms per FT Missionary, despite increasing the total number
of FT missionaries by almost 4,000 in the past 5 years.- The overall
Growth Rate of the Church has dropped almost in half, while the numbers of
resignations has increased by an order of magnitude in the past 5 years.So let's just wait and see how the effects of these "Mormon
Moments" and Public Relations campaigns show up in the numbers.
@CounterI;For once I agree with you. It's a MIRACLE. The
gospel must be true; or not. But you pose a good question.
This is great. I bet "Elder" Parker and "Elder" Stone never
thought they would be such a great missionary companionship.
I won't see the show in L.A. either.However, my associates from
New York said the take away they got was, "The Mormon Church is NOT a
secretive cult, "Blankety Blank" they have 50,000 missionaries that will
go to the ends of the earth to tell you about it."
The moderator censored me: but it was a legitimate question. If the LDS Church
is ok putting an ad in a playbill for a play that is noted for its vulgarity and
profanity, how far does that go? Are ads in Playboy OK? Is Family Guy OK?
Is The New Normal Ok?I simply want to know what distinguishes the
profanity in BOM musical from that in other media that the LDS Church would
choose to avoid?Maybe it is as simple as noting the New Normal or
Playboy are NOT about LDS. But I would still like to know the exact reason.
Maybe they'll squeeze the ad right between the ACLU and Planned
Can't wait until they build the $100 million broadway theatre downtown, so
I can go see the "book of mormon' play for myself!
I continue to be impressed with the Church's recent ad campaigns and PR
savvy. This is how it is supposed to be done.
The times really are changing. All props to the Church publicity dept. Took guts
to step out of the box on this but the message is totally on target. We can
laugh at ourselves and by the way you just might like us.
@RanchHand"Why does a church need advertising?"I
understand your sentiment, and if it were a matter of selling soap, I might
agree with you. But I believe there is more going on here. In this case,
"advertising" is an effective way to impact people's lives for the
good. Advertising has proven itself effective over the years.
"Advertising" is doing it's small part in spreading the gospel of
Jesus Christ by all legal, moral, and appropriate means. It fits in
today's culture/vernacular so it is an effective tool for the church. The
church has many ways of performing it's scripturally-based mandate of
spreading the gospel. Think of the web, missionaries, and
historically, radio, billboards, pamphlets, TV, video recordings, slide
projectors, cassette tapes, compact disks, dvd's, movies, world'a fair
displays, tourism (i.e. temple square), and many more. The church has not shyed
away from using timely methods/technologies in it's work. While
some may call it advertising, others see it as an effective message-sending
device. Truly, if the church is going to spread the gospel of peace, it needs
all legitimate avenues available to it. Just my opinion.
One more comment...for many years the Church has been bombarded by vicious
anti-Mormon attacks, many of which the Church could have gone to court over.
The Church has never done this. One reason is because they have found that we
get a lot of converts as a result. Many people see these attacks, take the time
to find out the truth and join the Church.The Book of Mormon Musical
is just one more conduit for getting the word out, albeit a convoluted one.
Why does a "church" need advertising?
Parker and Stone might very well be the best unintentional missionaries - EVER!
As always, the Church is brilliant at PR.
How is the LDS faith hiding their beliefs and unwilling to share? The same
church that sends young men and women out on missions to go door to door and
person to person to share their message. The same church that asks all of
it's members to be missionaries and share the gospel. The same church that
puts up billboards, welcome signs, allows anyone to visit temples before
they're dedicated, send free copies of the scriptures or church literature
to you, broadcast general conference on the internet tv print etc.Maybe people should take some time and look at the resources provided. Some
people are posting that they should just share their story. But to share their
story someone has to listen to it.Many people out there won't
take the time to listen.Remember communication is a two way street.
I never thought that the BOM Musical was trying to be negative against the LDS
church per se.The creators of the musical satirize all religions.
Their South Park Mormon episode, in the end, had a positive message.However, there was quite the firestorm on these boards when the musical first
came out.Hence my remark.
@Qwest PerfectedYou said - "The media campaign to normalize the
Mormon church has become a bit pathetic."If you don't like
the Mormon messages on TV or online or on billboards, I won't force you to
watch them and nobody else should either. You said - "I agree
with the above poster, just own up to your beliefs." Latter-day
Saints could discuss their beliefs and doctrine until the cows came home and a
good number of people would still be unsatisfied. It goes back to the whole,
"Nothing you can say will change my mind," philosophy. @Henry DrummondMaybe I'm in the minority, but as an active
Latter-day Saint I totally get the fact a certain number of people don't
like my church or agree with its teachings. I get the fact that some people even
have strongly negative opinions about my church. I would simply tell
such people, if you can not accept my faith, I hope we can still live side by
side as neighbors and friends.
The musical is making bank on the deliberate fallacy of saying that Joseph Smith
was the only one to see and handle the golden plates from which it was
translated.Meanwhile, the eleven who witnessed the golden plates and
signed their names to a document stating that fact has been in the preface of
The Book of Mormon since it was first published back in 1830.This
recent ad of "reading the book is much better than the musical" is a
bit of reverse satire on the production.
Absolutely brilliant... yea, even inspired.
All publicity is good. The sincere will ask questions. Those who hate us will
not be moved.
@Qwest PerfectedI disagree -- I don't see them as pathetic. I
think that the Church realized there is a great opportunity to capitalize on the
existing media coverage (mostly stemming from the presidential elections). In
fact, the Church doesn't have to put a lot of time or energy into these
media campaigns because it simply asks its members to open up with their
neighbors and acquaintances about their beliefs. We're actually quite
normal people, despite what you may think.As for not owning up to
our beliefs, perhaps there are things about our past as a Church that we
don't discuss as regularly as some would like (plural marriage,
African-Americans holding the priesthood, etc.), but that doesn't mean we
don't own up to them or are unwilling to discuss them. As with any
organization, we put our best foot forward when inviting others to explore our
faith. Can you imagine a company spending the majority of its time issuing
press releases about their dirty laundry? We're not hiding anything, but
we're not obligated to focus on the most controversial parts of our
Rifleman is smart once again.Spot on
I think it is great. As a member of the LDS church, I never had a problem with
the play in the first place. Getting more people exposed to the Book of Mormon
is a good thing, IMO.I don't think the LDS church hides from
our beliefs, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there. If any of you
have any questions about what we believe, I'm happy to answer any
questions, and I happen to know a couple of awkwardly clad and groomed, yet well
meaning and sincere young men who would be more than happy chat with you as
well.(Insert smiley face here)
I am laughing. This is pure satire at the expense of the writers and producers
of the play.The last thing they thought they would be doing is
promoting the Church, founded by Joseph Smith who published the Book of Mormon
The media campaign to normalize the Mormon church has become a bit pathetic.I agree with the above poster, just own up to your beliefs.
Re: JoeBlow Far East USA, SC"If you cant beat um, join um."They are finding that the audiences are liking the young men who play
the part of Mormon missionaries. The unintended consequence is that when real
LDS missionaries knock on their doors they are letting them in.
Brilliant marketing plan.
Absolutely brilliant! I'm not LDS, but I've never
understood why Mr. Walker and my other Mormon friends waste so much time
complaining of religious discrimination instead of just telling their own story.
A simple measured response to the musical will do more to help people understand
the culture of the Latter-day Saints than all the overwrought articles and
editorials over "Mormon Bashing" that are usually served up as a
response. After Proposition 8, nobody is going to feel Mormons are a picked
upon people anyway, so why not just tell folks what you really believe and why?
You may not make a lot of converts, but you will finally get people to listen to
your side of the story.
Well why not? It might help.
If you cant beat um, join um.
My only concern is that this might be confusing to some who don't
differentiate between the real thing and the musical. I hope it's not
viewed as an endorsement of any kind. I'm eager to see how it works out.