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Published: Friday, June 22 2012 10:40 a.m. MDT

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deductive reasoning
Arlington, VA

Twofer

Who did Utah beat in 2004?

Checking the record, the Utes only beat THREE teams with winning records during the regular season:

Texas A&M(7-5), @NM(7-5), and @Wyo(7-5)

In 1984, BYU beat FOUR teams with winning records during the regular season:

Tulsa(6-5), @Hawaii(7-4), @Air Force(8-4), @Utah(6-5-1)

Yet, Utah fans whined incessantly about how "deserving" Utah was about being a national championship contender, some even claiming that Utah actually won the national championship because the Utes finished the season undefeated.

Bottom-line: despite the spin from the hill, final rankings are the ONLY rankings that count

1983 BYU #7/#7
1984 BYU #1/#1
1996 BYU #5/#5

2004 Utah #4/#5
2008 Utah #2/#4

Five of the last 6 years, BYU has finished in the Top 25

Utah has only finished in the Top 25, 3 of the last 6 years

Which is more important, beating a ranked team, or BEING a ranked team?

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@two for flinching

So you can no longer refute my logic and now have to resort to calling names? That is what usually happens when a utah "fan" loses a debate. LOL!

And of course BYU did beat Pitt when they were ranked #3 which started Pitt's slide. But to be honest with you that really doesn't matter to me, what does matter is that BYU finished ranked #1 in EVERY SINGLE POLL, which as you say is what matter's, how you finish, and finishing #1 is what matters. LOL!

You see utah "fan" hypocrisy is fun to point out, when you think it suits your argument like "utah beat 4 teams that finished ranked in 2008" then you claim how a team finsihed in the rankings is all that matters. But when it contradicts your argument like BYU finished ranked #1 in every major poll in 1984 and BYU finished ranked #25 in 2011, then you downplay the rankings as if they are of no consequence.

I love utah "fan" hypocrisy.

LOL!

MLH
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

duckhunter

I'm stil lwaiting to hear where that barnburner utah/northern colorado game is going to be broadcast.

Probably the same place as your Weber State game

StGtoSLC
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Duckhunter,
No, BYU is not much of a resume builder, because they were not ranked when Utah played them last year, nor will they be ranked, when Utah, WSU or OSU play them. Hence, how Utah actually earned more in the polls from a last second loss at USC than a 44 point win at BYU.

"So you can no longer refute my logic and now have to resort to calling names? That is what usually happens when a utah "fan" loses a debate. LOL!"

Like when you resorted to calling me a nerd a few months back? So does that make you a Utah "fan," or is that just typical BYU hypocrisy?

motorbike
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Duckhunter & Two For Flinching

Until a playoff system, one could argue each of your points. When I say playoff I'm talking 8 teams ... 4 teams won't change things much.

Ute fans can quite reasonably argue BYUs recent top 25 finishes are fluff ... same goes for the '84 season. However, until last year Utah and BYU always played similar schedules, so my fellow Ute fans can complain but BYU still managed to make the top 25 more often than Utah.

The Ute argument last year and going forward is what we've heard since 1984 ... "yeah, but who did they play???" People want to complain about the BCS but let's look at that. BYU gets rewarded with a NC for playing a WAC schedule? Programs like Oklahoma, Washington and Florida then questioned what the reward was for playing in such difficult conferences.

In retrospect the 2004 Utes and 1984 Cougs played poor schedules. Should either of them have finished so highly ranked?

My opinion ... BYU loses in a playoff in 1984. Utah loses in 2004 - tougher guess.

BYU in '96 and Utah in '08 - I'd have really liked to have seen those teams compete in a playoff.

phoenix
Gilbert, AZ

Duckhunter

Couldn't agree more.

Some Utah fans have this myopic view of the world when it comes to resume building, assuming that the only thing that anybody cares about is that one job where they earned rave reviews, while pretending that those other 3 or 4 jobs from which they were fired never existed.

The reason Utah didn't finish in the Top 25 last year wasn't because their narrow loss to USC or their big win over BYU didn't impress the votes, the reason Utah didn't get a single vote in either of the polls is because Utah LOST to Colorado(3-10), to ASU(6-7), to Cal(7-6), and to Wash(7-6).

Beating a single ranked team, while losing to several mediocre to bad teams, simply doesn't cut it in the national polls.

BYU seldom loses to bad teams = 18 lifetime Top 25 Finishes, 5 in the last 6 years

Utah loses to bad teams frequently = 7 lifetime Top 25 Finishes, 3 in the last 6 years

It's as simple as that.

BlueCoug
Orem, UT

motorbike

I agree that an 8- or 16-team playoff is the fairest format for deciding a champion, but your SOS argument is fundamentally flawed in assuming that simply playing a tougher SOS proves anything.

Team #1 could be the best team in the country, by far, but with a mediocre SOS; while Team #2 could be the 2nd best team with a stronger SOS. The only legitimate conclusion that can be drawn from both teams going undefeated is that Team #1 wasn't as tested as Team #2, it doesn't prove that Team #2 was better simply because they played a tougher SOS.

In retrospect, Utah 2004, in my opinion, was much better than Utah 2008, but never got a chance to prove it because of a weaker SOS.

BYU 1983 and BYU 1984 were essentially the same team, with different starting quarterbacks; a team that won 24 straight games and had back-to-back Top 7 finishes, with two road wins against Top 15 teams.

BYU 1983, 1984 and 1996 and Utah 2004 were all good enough to have had a legitimate chance of winning a national championship playoff.

motorbike
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@BlueCoug

I appreciate your comment and I agree.

I think you missed my point though, probably my fault.

I was saying the same thing you did ... essentially that until there's a legitimate playoff situation that we'll always be guessing. I gave my OPINION on what I thought of four different Utah and BYU teams, but heck if I know, there wasn't a playoff. I actually suspect that you could be right about the 2004 Utah team ... I'd have loved to have seen them play USC, Auburn or Oklahoma that year (the other undefeated teams going into BCS games).

My point was this, say USC, Oklahoma and Auburn all would've lost one game in 2004 ... it would have been a tough pill to swallow for each of them to have seen Utah rewarded with a national championship when Utah's schedule didn't measure up. It's not to say they wouldn't have necessarily been deserving, but those other teams would have viewed this as Utah backing their way into a championship instead of truly playing their way into one.

THIS is how Utah fans view BYUs top 25 ranking last year.

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

Duckhunter

For both utah and wsu the only good ooc game they play is BYU hence two dogs each and one good team in BYU.

-------

Yet I am willing to bet Utah has a tougher time @Utah State than dismantling BYU @RES. The fact is the two dogs are: Northern Colorado and BYU.

Uteology
East Salt Lake City, Utah

The difference between the 1984 BYU and 2004 Ute teams...

Utah SOS #67
vs.
BYU SOS #90ish

Utah took each team to the woodshed, no game closer than 14 points
vs.
BYU had 5 games decided by 7 or less points

Did Utah deserve the NC with that schedule. Nope.
But they did deserve at least a BCS game against Auburn.

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

deductive reasoning:

"Checking the record, the Utes only beat THREE teams with winning records during the regular season...In 1984, BYU beat FOUR..."

So? What's your point? The Indy-WACers also played a 13 game schedule due to their AWAY game at Hawai'i. The '04 Utes played 12. If you scratch your @Hawai'i game, you're back down to beating only 3 teams with winning records.

And if you DON'T scratch Hawai'i, if you add up the entire win total of each of your 13 opponents, it's the same number of wins of each of Utah's TWELVE opponents.

There really is no way to hide how weak your SOS was back in '84, so just give it up.

P.S.: 2004 Utah > 1984 Indy-WACers.....just like 2004 MWC > 1984 WAC.

TheSportsAuthority
Arlington, VA

Uteology

"The difference between the 1984 BYU and 2004 Ute teams..."

Sorry my myopic young friend, but the difference between BYU 1984 and Utah 2004 had nothing to do with SOS.

The real difference was BYU 1984 was ranked #1 after the regular season and finished the season on a 24-game winning streak dating back to the first game of 2003, a season in which BYU beat two Top 13 teams on the road, #17/#13 UCLA and #13/#15 Air Force, to finish #7 in both polls. BYU had already established its credentials as a legitimate national championship contender with FIVE Top 12 finishes in the previous six years.

Utah 2004 was ranked #6 in the final BCS standings after finishing #21 in both polls the previous season, cracking the Top 25 for first time in almost a decade in 2003. Utah hadn't established any credentials as a legitimate national championship contender.

Rockwell
Baltimore, MD

Naval Vet

lol at your crimson-glasses shaded analysis

Since when do you give a team less credit for having one more victory? The obvious team to scratch from BYU's schedule to even things out at 12 apiece would have been BYU's last regular season opponent, Utah State(1-11), which did absolutely nothing to improve BYU's record or national ranking, but did scew BYU's overall SOS.

Bottom-line:

After a month of more scrutiny than any #1-ranked team had ever received, BYU beat Michigan in the Holiday Bowl and was selected CONCENSUS #1 by all five major selecting organizations who selected a national champion in 1984, including the AP, which selected Utah #4 in 2004, using the exact same criteria as they used in 1984.

Naval Vet
Philadelphia, PA

Rockwell:

"Since when do you give a team less credit for having one more victory?"

Ask "deductive reasoning" since he's the one who said, "Checking the record, the Utes only beat THREE teams with winning records during the regular season...In 1984, BYU beat FOUR teams with winning records...". In "deductive reasoning's" case, he suggested that -- to quote you -- "having one more victory" was somehow an edge over Utah's much stronger 2004 SOS. "deductive reasoning" ALSO attempts to discount Utah's win over our 4th opponent with a winning record in 8-4 Pittsburgh. Since when do we give a team less credit for beating their bowl opponent?

"The obvious team to scratch from BYU's schedule to even things out at 12 apiece would have been BYU's last regular season opponent, Utah State..."

No...the OBVIOUS team to scratch would have been Hawai'i, because THAT was the reason you played a 13-game schedule. Every team who plays AT Hawai'i is permitted, per NCAA regulations, to schedule an additional Home game.

The bottom line is your 13 opponents had the EXACT SAME win total as our 12 opponents.

Bluto
Sandy, UT

@The Sport Authority

Excellent Analysis.

I would add that in '83 after BYU beat the eventual Pac 10 Champ UCLA, in their Rose Bowl Home, UCLA then went on and beat #1 Ranked Illinois, in the Rose Bowl in January.

The great line of the day was that for over 2 Seasons-24 weeks.....

"Nobody Beat Anybody, That Beat BYU".

The only people who disputed BYU's National Championship, were Jealous Ute fans, Bryant Gumball and Barry Switzer.

BYU was a "Unanimous National Champion".
Voted #1 by all 4 "Officially Sanctioned" NCAA Polls.

Coaches
AP
NFF
FWAA

Only 19 D-1 "Programs" have ever been declared National Champions....UNANIMOUSLY.

Poor Ute Fan....Has just never recovered....

And they endlessly try to convince themselves that only 6 good years, equates to BYU's Major Accomplishments over Generations.

And then to have all that followed with BYU having a Heisman Trophy Winner, Outland's and Davey O'Brien's, Doak Walker and Sammy Baugh Trophies, among their 17 National Award Winners (Utah has never had One)....It's just more than Uteville can stand.

Super Bowl, NFL MVP's and College Hall of Famers to Boot......

Oh The Humanity!!!

motorbike
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Congrats Bluto. That's awesome and we're all so happy for you.

raisedaute
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@mussingaround

Lets look at the last ten years

Utah 2 top 5 finishes (2004 #4 AP #5 coaches 2008 #2 AP #4 coaches) 3
top 25 (2003 #21 AP #21 coaches 2009 #18 AP #18 coaches 2010 #23
coaches)

BYU 0 top 10 finishes 6 top 25 finishes (2001 #25 AP #24 coaches 2006
#16 AP #15 coaches 2007 #14 AP #14 coaches 2008 #25 AP #21 coaches 2009
#12 AP #12 coaches 2011 unranked AP #25 coaches)

I'll take the Utes record for the last ten like the PAC did.

DrTpayne
Vista, CA

Utah has little to gain from scheduling "lowly BYU" Except when they lose, they reflect negatively on the PAC 12. Lenny you were right, Utah will be pumping our gas. I take unleaded...fill er up. Hey when you need an instate loss come on down to Provo, we'll help you out. Meanwhile see if you can beat Colorado, it's only for a place in the playoff game, against the second worse PAC 12 team.

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