Roberto, I think you have misunderstood what Bible-only believers have said
about Bible-plus believers. You have taken the Biblical Jesus and added to His
doctrines, diety and life story, correct? That's all the beef is about.
You can still be great charitable, religious people, but don't get upset
with original Christians because you follow a 19th century update to the Christ
of 2 centuries of proven historical documentation. Discuss that with your
leaders. And Jesus never said to call His followers "haters". He
instructed every NT writer to "defend the faith given to the saints".1- Do you accept all religions who follow part of Mormon's, or
Moroni's, or Joseph Smith's or Brigham Young's teachings as
"Mormons"? The FLDS, RLDS and LDS all fight over those claims. Can
they call you "haters" because you deny their claims?2-
This survey was about "religious affiliation", not activity. Dearborn,
MI has the highest % of Muslims in the U.S. Their affiliation is notChristian,
but they do a very high amount of charity and are far more "religious"
than any American religion with their multiple daily prayers.Let's stay on topic and "kind".
@alt- I don't agree with your assessment and I don't see any hard data
to support it.Of course, true humanitarians are kinder and more
charitable than wicked dictators. Any 3rd grader can tell you that. Don't
exist just to criticize, offer some positive suggestions here.What
is the crime rate in Utah? My folks still leave their doors unlocked on a
regular basis in St. George, and they're not country bumpkins. They moved
there after 40 years in southern Cal. There is little crime in their town.@Outlier- Utah has held the suicide distinction since 1985. Google the
last 30 years.@roberto- No evangelical has ever said that LDS are
not charitable or giving. They define "Christian" by agreeing with
JSmith's definition that you aren't "Biblical Christians". No
need to perpetuate the myth that charity, not doctrines, define
"Christianity". Will you consider me a "Mormon" if I call
myself one and follow some of Joseph Smith's teachings? Even you make sure
every media outlet define the FLDS as NOT being LDS.Doing charity in
the name of someone doesn't make you their disciple. We are just agreeing
with your definition.
alt134, Thou dost protest too much. Too much time on your hands?Travel much? If so, all the communist, atheist, Taliban countries could care
less about the masses. The Balkans are still pure hell. The Middle East?Non-fanatical religious countries always fare better. Give up the Far
Left Kool Aid for a month and travel. Any of the communities we do humanitarian
aid in, would love to return with us- especially to lovely Salt Lake.
But, as far as violent crimes goes, Utah is ranked 6th lowest in the nation
which is quite good.
@Semper Fi"We all know that religiously active people (from
non-terrorist religions) are generally kinder and more charitable than the
secular humanist, communist, fascist, pagans of the world..."That's false. The top three states in terms of having the least crime are
New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine. Those are incidentally the top states in
terms of having the highest percentage of atheists. Of course if you look at the
50 states as a whole there's not really any religious correlation between
religion/lack thereof and crime, which is sufficient to disprove your argument
that religiously active people are kinder. Not to mention that the religious are
more likely to oppose gov't programs to help the poor (with the exception
of the Catholic church which is one that came out and say that the Ryan budget
When i read Pagan's comment about Salt Lake CIty, I was skeptical. Then I
was proven correct by further comments;that his comment was false. Salt Lake is
a beautiful city mainly because of Temple Square and everything around it. But
it is a city, and like every big city, it has its underbelly. Salt Lake City is
not perfect by any means, but it just may be a little better than some. Of
course I don't believe censuses such as this too much because they cannot
take everything into consideration. It is kind of nice to see Salt Lake on top
And as for the "porn" statistics, they were proven bogus, but like many
things continue to linger.
Utah is actually 10th in suicides (16.1 per 100,000). Simply Google "suicide
rates by state". The average in the U.S. was 12.0 per 100,000 so in terms of
"deviation from the mean", it's not an extreme outlier. You should
not draw too many conclusion from one year of data because they fluctuate and
because for most states the rates are pretty close. You need to evaluate trends
over time to determine how consistent they are and then dig into the actual
cases. You may wonder by NY, NJ and DC have the lowest suicide rates while the
following states are higher:MontanaAlaskaWyomingIdahoNevadaColoradoNew MexicoOregonArizonaI
wish statistics was a mandatory course for all students....
Being the most religious is not synonymous with being the most righteous. I also
believe "The nearer a person approaches the Lord, a greater power will be
manifested by the adversary to prevent the accomplishment of His
purposes”, and as a result, there will be much temptation placed in the
path of religious persons. The anecdote is clear. Hold firm to the Iron Rod,
daily study and ponder in the scriptures, weekly partake of the Sacrament, and
always seek forgiveness. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the
devil, and he will flee from you." May God bless.
Huh? I thought mormons weren't Christian. At least that is what I am told
by all the haters that would rather believe their preacher than Investigate for
them selves. @ Pagan... spoken like a true pagan. The study may or
may not be true. Last I checked None of us are perfect. All of us have some
things to change, or suffer the consequences.
Capella. There are no slums of ghetto in SLC. There are areas that would be
considered low income and blighted. Mostly on the west side. I would consider
inner city Ogden the most impoversihed area of the state.
May I add that I love visiting SLC and find it a refreshing, clean, energetic
city. But that could be because I only visit the "nice" areas. I
really wouldn't know if there are even slums or poor areas of Salt Lake.Since my BYU days in the 70's, I only have positive memories of all
things-Utah. So even the suicide and scam stats are surprising to me. But
then, how many of us visit the slums and poor areas of our own cities? We take
teens to Mexico on spring break to do Christian ministry, and they are exposed
to much poverty. But in my own town, you can drive for 20 minutes and find
parts of run-down Bakersfield that have tiendas (stores) on every corner and
Spanish-only inside.This poll has made me ask some serious questions
about titles and what they really mean. Mecca is more religious than SLC, but
that doesn't mean that I would move there...
Now give us the statistics for crime, suicide and success in each city. That
should tell us a little more about how the "religion" is affecting lives
and progress.The Taliban has more dedicated members than most
churches. Al Qaeda has achieved many things on their list of goals. Visit any
American prison and find out which religion is garnering the most new converts:
It isn't any Christian one. It is Islam and the Nation of Islam.Context and perspective would be an interesting follow-up to these polls.
Otherwise, their meaning falls flat.
We all know that religiously active people (from non-terrorist religions) are
generally kinder and more charitable than the secular humanist, communist,
fascist, pagans of the world...The question I have for my LDS
family, is why Utah has been in the top 3 states since the early 1980's for
adult and teen suicides; and in the top 2 for the largest population to get
scammed by financial schemers and Ponzi artists, etc.?My dad always
felt that Mormons are too trusting, which is true. But I'd like to have
more data on the origin of the scammers. Are they from out of state, or non-LDS
predominantly? I'm hoping so.We can forgive the trusting and
the elderly. But the other statistic is the one that should have been addressed
aggressively by church leaders, in my opinion. The statistics have not changed
in over 20 years. The only corollary I have seen, is the high suicide rate in
the Chinese and Japanese countries where over-achieving is a lifestyle. I would
want to know why a predominantly religious state hasn't found a solution
for those facts in this long.
Hey Pagan: Here's something you may not have understood. Salt Lake City is
a city and Utah is a state. Statistics for a state don't translate into the
same breakdown for each city within a state.
For those that were thinking it should have been Provo, please re-read the
article. Of cities with an MSA of over 1,000,000 people, Salt Lake City was
surveyed as the "Most Religious City". Provo's MSA is only about
550,000 people right now.
RanchHand,I agree- I'd expect Provo well before SLC.Counter Intelligence,I think we should welcome Pagan back full
heartedly, instead of wish him away. I'm the last person to welcome people
giving comments critical of the LDS Church, the Deseret News, or certain
conservative opinions- but my not welcoming such comments is not not welcoming
the person giving the comment. You probably meant it more in humor. It is funny.
But even as much as Pagan and I can disagree, I still felt a welcome should be
said here so I offer it.Welcome back pagan! lol Can we expect this
as back back? no? Hopefully you weren't so stressed to leave and hopefully
I didn't further that stress... if it was stress. lolSometimes
I wish there was a DN forum, with ongoing discussions instead of 200 word
limits... I'm sure the moderators couldn't handle that, but if we had
one I'd open a "welcome back pagan" sub-thread. Maybe I should
start my own unofficial DN forum... maybe not. lolThis is probably
my most random, non-article related comment ever... hopefully it will still get
Pagan's alive! I've been wondering where you've been lately.
Despite our disagreements, it's good to see that your still
kickin'.Anyway, just because someone uses porn doesn't
mean they aren't religious. Even more... just because someone uses porn
does not mean they don't believe it is wrong. How many members of the LDS
Church in Utah have viewed porn? It's not a low number. That doesn't
mean members of the church are jumping for joy about it either. In General
Conference we often hear messages about how dangerous it is and how bishops are
there to help, etc. Bishops wouldn't be there to help if there wasn't
a need to be helped. Pretty simple.Technically, I'd say that
high porn viewership here means that we are the most in need for help. That
isn't a bad thing. If anything it's sad and it should motivate those
in a position to help... to help.Oh, and that's not even
considering the point that every time you refer to the study, I remind you of
the followup DN article which adequately explained Utah's numbers.
The whole "Utah #1 in porno" article turned out to be a farce. It used
data from one company, and onle sampled selected zip codes. Utah's were
lower to near the average except for two. One was a very rural zip in central
Utah that included a mining town with very few active LDS, and the other was
right next to the U of U-students and also not a lot of Mormons up in that
neigborhood. But it made for a nice, scandalous headline.
@Pagan,Due to our various bad habits, perhaps we have a much greater
need for religion than our friends in Portland.Someone once said
they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.Unless, of course, there is some ironic sort of causal link between our
submission to certain religious beliefs or practices and our need for online
pornography. That may be the case, but at this point it is only possible to
speculate and hypothesize about it.
@RanchhandThere may be size limits as to what cities were considered.
Provo perhaps wasn't in the list of cities studied.
SLC is 'most religious' city, huh? That's funny,
considering Utah, is number one for online pornography.....
‘Utah No. 1 in online porn subscriptions, report says’ – By
Elaine Jarvik – 03/03/09 – DSNews Line:‘That's the conclusion of a Harvard economics professor who tracked
subscriptions to online porn sites. Utah ranks No. 1 in subscriptions, according
to Benjamin Edelman, who reported his findings in the article "Red Light
States: Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment?," published in the most recent
edition of the Journal of Economic Perspectives.’
I would have expected Provo to hold that title.