Comments about ‘LDS Church buys farmland, Haun's Mill, Far West, Kirtland property from Community of Christ’

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Published: Saturday, May 5 2012 10:00 p.m. MDT

Updated: Friday, May 30 2014 1:12 p.m. MDT

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Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Thinkman: It surprises me so little that you know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints finances. If you did you wouldn't make such snide remarks as you just did. The audit that is done twice a year is from an independent audit system. Yes, it is true that an auditor is called in each Stake to perform both the Stake and associated units of the Stake. What you fail to understand is that more individuals are excommunicated for using those funds donated incorrectly. In fact, it is always under two person control from the time it enters the Clerks office until it leaves. Every year as you are aware tithing settlement is done so that individuals can see what they have donated. They are then provided copies for tax purposes if they so wish to have them filed.

Secondly, there is a difference between what is donated and what the Church has. I bet you didn't know that the LDS Church doesn't buy something unless the money is available. Yet, you honestly think you know more than anyone where the money goes. Fact is once it leaves your hand it is God's.

Rifleman
Salt Lake City, Utah

Thinkman Provo, UT
"Yes, the LDS church is very rich thanks to the faithful who pay their tithing so they can attend the temple and be in good standing with their leaders."

The LDS faithful don't pay tithing so they can attend the temple or please their leaders. They do it because they love the Lord and show it by obeying Him. Why should it bother a nonmember if the LDS Church has enough money to buy some property.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

"Rifleman

The City Creek development cost the LDS Church approximately $1.5B. Just think of the return on that investment they will earn."

And that's a big problem with me.

1. LDS church reported giving 1.5 billion to Humanitarian aid since 1985.

2. Their costs for a profitable venture in the last few years cost 1.5 billion (seems low from other sources I've read, more likely 3-5 billion)

3. You claimed the LDS church built the mall. My understanding is their 'for-profit(prophet)' wings built the mall. If the LDS church did then the government would surely stop their tax exemption (which it should anyways until we get an audit).

4. We'll see if this farm lands becomes malls, shopping centers, or some sort of other profitable venture some day. The problem is the PROFITS are supposed to go to help PEOPLE not build more profits. That's purely business, not divinely inspired.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

@Rifleman,

Regarding why you tithe: "They do it because they love the Lord and show it by obeying Him."

Funny I though tithing was all about helping our fellow man ...

Indep RLDS
Independence, MO

I can understand how the LDS would be happy. However, I find little joy in this. My father managed the 6000 acres of farm land for over 30 years. It was purchased in trust to assist those gathering to Independence. It was sold, sadly, because it appears it was only an asset that needed to be converted.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Indep RLDS,

What do you mean by an "asset that needed to be converted"?

GmaxD
Lehi, UT

@LValfre : The problem with your problem is that it is bogus--a straw man.

1)The $1.5 billion reported by the LDS church are separate funds specifically designated for large scale disaster relief and humanitarian projects and makes for an intellectually dishonest comparison to the cost of the CCC. You fail to consider the enormous sums of money spent over the same time period on the LDS Church's vast welfare system which assists untold numbers of individuals and families.

2)Most credible sources put the cost of CCC at $1.5 to $2 billion. $3 billion for that scale of a project is a stretch and $5 billion approaches the realm of the absurd.

3) Most reasonable people with a cursory knowledge of the structure of the LDS church understand that saying the LDS church built CCC refers to the commercial, tax-paying subsidiary that built it.

4) Stay open to the possibility that the 6000 acres of farm land will be used, gasp, as farm land, and will be incorporated into the LDS church's welfare system for, you know, helping people.

Shazandra
Bakersfield, CA

Hmm... No response on equitable church obligations in the reverse?

1- No answer as to whether or not the church should also sell 1-2 acres that surround the cairn and graves at the MMM site to the victim's ancestors.

2- The Fancher-Baker families have said they won't put up a mall, a center, a hamburger joint, or commercial "carrots". They only want the graves protected from sinking ground and erosion factors.

3- The friends of the family association, are the ones who lobbied for/offered to contribute to a simple Andy Gump or two. Years and lotsa letters later, there was a 1-use AG that was completed on Sept. 9, 2007. Just in time for the 350+ visitors, media and church leaders who attended the 150th anniversary program on Sept. 11.

4- Had this anniversary not shared the same date as 2001's tragedy, there would have been hundreds more trying to utilize one toilet and a small asphalt lot at the end of a mile-long bumpy dirt road.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

@Gmaxd,

LDS's vast welfare system is primarily for mormons. It's not the same as helping people when you pick and choose who gets the help. There's no beating around the bush on this one ... there's been so much more money spent on real estate, business, marketing, PR, etc. than humanitarian aid it's sickening. The church is about growing far more than it's about helping.

And if it's 1.5 billion for the CC project and 1.5 billion for humanitarian aid ... lets look at the numbers. 1.5 billion for profit in 2-3 years vs 1.5 billion to help in 27 years.

Now you tell me where the priority lies when it comes to the money? Be honest with yourself and have courage answering this one. You already know the answer.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

GmaxD,

You'll find that I have frequently called critics of the church out on the straw-man fallacy. It's insane how much people either don't know, don't want to know, or won't listen to.

I couldn't commend your comment more for also pointing it out. I personally believe it's the crux of the majority of anti-LDS arguments out there.

GmaxD
Lehi, UT

@A voice of Reason: In my experience, the overwhelming majority of anti-mormon criticism--whether willfully or out of simple ignorance--is based upon and/or is centered around straw-man fallacies (along with, of course, all manner of other types of faulty reasoning, intentional distortion and/or ad hominem attacks thrown in for good measure).

So many critics form fixed-beliefs which color the lens through which they see the world--reality, logic and intellectual honesty notwithstanding.

Lately, I have grown weary of seeing many critics repeatedly bray about the cost of CCC and selectively and deceptively compare that cost to the reported humanitarian spending by the LDS church since 1985, falsely implying that the LDS Church spent as much on one commercial venture as it did on helping the poor over 25 years--ignoring, of course, the much bigger picture of LDS Welfare spending and services over the same time period.

Filo Doughboy
Bakersfield, CA

GmaxD, if that's your overwhelming experience with anti-Mormon criticism, you need to get in different circles. There is a brotherly way to share constructive criticism. If someone is too thin-skinned or whiney, don't deal with them. If they are sincere and factual the Bible says to share "with gentleness and respect". (1Pet. 3:15)

I run into those same criticisms from the anti-anti's. No facts, pure emotion, hurtful comments. I move on.

Re the topic here, Jamshid Askar has reported a kindness in the CoC selling your church this property. Shazandra has asked why your church has not shown the same kindness to their victims' ancestors from the MMM. Yet there is another 10 comments and no one replies: Ignorance or apathy?

This is what gives any group a black eye. Refusing to care, unless it's their baby who's crying.

wyocowboy
lyman, 00

To Filo Doughboy. Just visited the MMM locations last week-end and was impressed by the monuments and stories told. All very nice. As for the LDS Church not giving the property over to the relatives, I am just assuming but I don't believe the Church needs the money and the location is also part of Mormon history.

Indep RLDS
Independence, MO

"A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT
Indep RLDS,

What do you mean by an "asset that needed to be converted"?"

It seems the Comm of Christ (CoC) only view things in dollars and cents and not much of the why's, how's, and purposes of things. It seems to me that, for them, this land had no purpose other than to convert it to cash.

troyboy1
Danville, KY

Wow, the LDS people seem to really talk down to others and act as if they are entitled to this land. Why does a church need this farmland? Wouldn't it be better spent helping others?

wehage65
BURKE, VA

Brothers and Sisters,
I believe this acquisition is a sacred thing. Let's not detract from the sacredness by making snarky comments at/to/about one another or the purchase itself. Please?

Russell Spencer
Boise, ID

I remember visiting these sites several years ago. I didn't realize that they were owned by the RLDS Church, but I'm not surprised. That church has long shown a commitment to preserving the early history of the Restoration, and the sites were wonderfully maintained. The LDS Church shares that commitment, and I'm so glad the RLDS Church thought of us first when they needed to sell these properties. Hopefully, if similar needs arise in the future, they will continue to call us first, so these magnificent and historically significant properties can continue to be enjoyed by future generations.

Kith
Huntington Beach, CA

troyboy1, Farmland is used to grow food. Where do you think that food is going?

84Jeep
Lehi, UT

Shh, no one tell troboy1 that the LDS Church already owns one of the the nations largest cattle ranches (290,000 acres) in Florida since 1950 to raise over 40,000 head of beef (food) for welfare and humanitarian service and they recently purchased over another 380,000 acres of Timber land in the pan handle in Fla. Hmmmm - Trees build things, (homes, churches etc.) That acquisition made the LDS church the largest private land holder in Fla, roughly owning about 5% of the state of Fla.
Bottom line....6,000 acres in MO is a drop in the bucket compared to their existing land holdings.

antodav
TAMPA, FL

We will be getting the Kirtland Temple back any day now…

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