Amazing how the LDS church can function well without debt.Our nation
has a national debt equal to $700,000 for every second of a year, and most
states/cities are also in debt.The difference of corruption, and
If people are so critical of the LDS church not sharing with it's members a
detailed audit of its finances how do you know the financial information of
humanitarian aid is accurate?
The LDS Church also has a long-term view of things. A few years ago, I worked on
a legal matter with a law firm down in Florida. It turned out that one of the
lawyers I worked with had also worked with the LDS Church on its extensive
property holdings down there (roughly 2% of the entire state). This lawyer (not
LDS) came away from that experience very impressed. He said that the
Church's plan for maintaining and developing those holdings stretches out
over a 100-year period, which is a rather stark contrast to almost any other
land owner/developer in Florida.
Thank you Community of Christ, for your years of preserving these historic
sites. I have seen some of them and appreciate that they are still available for
public viewing. Thank you, LDS Church for agreeing to take on the preservation.
Yes I would agree with the previous comments that the church teaches wise
stewardship and frugality are great things for individuals and households but to
compare the running of a household or church to that of a government is a little
naive as households or churches don't print their own currency, set
interest rates, etc. There are major differences and the above example are a
little apples and oranges. Great news that the Church has acquired these
properties though! It really is a wonderful blessing indeed!
Max - I don't know how much the Community of Christ has distanced
themselves from the restoration, but I can tell you that I actually visited
Kirtland two Thanksgivings ago, and they at least valued their heritage of
stemming from Joseph Smith's legacy as much as we do. True, they couched
their expressions of faith in language much more familiar to the protestant
world than to us, but the fact is that they were able to feel the spirit of what
happened in the Kirtland Temple as well as we could.
The acquisition of Hauns Mill by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
means so much to those of us who lost ancestors there. My 3rd great grandmother,
Amanda Barns Smith lost her husband and oldest son and a younger son was gravely
wounded. I know that the Church will maintain the sacredness of the site where
lives were lost to strengthen those of us who would follow. Somewhere I plan to
Good to see the Church being able to step up and secure more of its heritage and
protect it from development.
We will be getting the Kirtland Temple back any day now…
Shh, no one tell troboy1 that the LDS Church already owns one of the the nations
largest cattle ranches (290,000 acres) in Florida since 1950 to raise over
40,000 head of beef (food) for welfare and humanitarian service and they
recently purchased over another 380,000 acres of Timber land in the pan handle
in Fla. Hmmmm - Trees build things, (homes, churches etc.) That acquisition
made the LDS church the largest private land holder in Fla, roughly owning about
5% of the state of Fla. Bottom line....6,000 acres in MO is a drop in the
bucket compared to their existing land holdings.
troyboy1, Farmland is used to grow food. Where do you think that food is going?
I remember visiting these sites several years ago. I didn't realize that
they were owned by the RLDS Church, but I'm not surprised. That church has
long shown a commitment to preserving the early history of the Restoration, and
the sites were wonderfully maintained. The LDS Church shares that commitment,
and I'm so glad the RLDS Church thought of us first when they needed to
sell these properties. Hopefully, if similar needs arise in the future, they
will continue to call us first, so these magnificent and historically
significant properties can continue to be enjoyed by future generations.
Brothers and Sisters, I believe this acquisition is a sacred thing.
Let's not detract from the sacredness by making snarky comments at/to/about
one another or the purchase itself. Please?
Wow, the LDS people seem to really talk down to others and act as if they are
entitled to this land. Why does a church need this farmland? Wouldn't it be
better spent helping others?
"A voice of ReasonSalt Lake City, UTIndep RLDS,What
do you mean by an "asset that needed to be converted"?"It seems the Comm of Christ (CoC) only view things in dollars and cents and
not much of the why's, how's, and purposes of things. It seems to me
that, for them, this land had no purpose other than to convert it to cash.
To Filo Doughboy. Just visited the MMM locations last week-end and was
impressed by the monuments and stories told. All very nice. As for the LDS
Church not giving the property over to the relatives, I am just assuming but I
don't believe the Church needs the money and the location is also part of
GmaxD, if that's your overwhelming experience with anti-Mormon criticism,
you need to get in different circles. There is a brotherly way to share
constructive criticism. If someone is too thin-skinned or whiney, don't
deal with them. If they are sincere and factual the Bible says to share
"with gentleness and respect". (1Pet. 3:15)I run into those
same criticisms from the anti-anti's. No facts, pure emotion, hurtful
comments. I move on.Re the topic here, Jamshid Askar has reported a
kindness in the CoC selling your church this property. Shazandra has asked why
your church has not shown the same kindness to their victims' ancestors
from the MMM. Yet there is another 10 comments and no one replies: Ignorance
or apathy?This is what gives any group a black eye. Refusing to
care, unless it's their baby who's crying.
@A voice of Reason: In my experience, the overwhelming majority of anti-mormon
criticism--whether willfully or out of simple ignorance--is based upon and/or is
centered around straw-man fallacies (along with, of course, all manner of other
types of faulty reasoning, intentional distortion and/or ad hominem attacks
thrown in for good measure). So many critics form fixed-beliefs
which color the lens through which they see the world--reality, logic and
intellectual honesty notwithstanding.Lately, I have grown weary of
seeing many critics repeatedly bray about the cost of CCC and selectively and
deceptively compare that cost to the reported humanitarian spending by the LDS
church since 1985, falsely implying that the LDS Church spent as much on one
commercial venture as it did on helping the poor over 25 years--ignoring, of
course, the much bigger picture of LDS Welfare spending and services over the
same time period.
GmaxD,You'll find that I have frequently called critics of the
church out on the straw-man fallacy. It's insane how much people either
don't know, don't want to know, or won't listen to.I
couldn't commend your comment more for also pointing it out. I personally
believe it's the crux of the majority of anti-LDS arguments out there.
@Gmaxd,LDS's vast welfare system is primarily for mormons.
It's not the same as helping people when you pick and choose who gets the
help. There's no beating around the bush on this one ... there's been
so much more money spent on real estate, business, marketing, PR, etc. than
humanitarian aid it's sickening. The church is about growing far more than
it's about helping.And if it's 1.5 billion for the CC
project and 1.5 billion for humanitarian aid ... lets look at the numbers. 1.5
billion for profit in 2-3 years vs 1.5 billion to help in 27 years. Now you tell me where the priority lies when it comes to the money? Be honest
with yourself and have courage answering this one. You already know the answer.
Hmm... No response on equitable church obligations in the reverse?1-
No answer as to whether or not the church should also sell 1-2 acres that
surround the cairn and graves at the MMM site to the victim's ancestors.2- The Fancher-Baker families have said they won't put up a mall,
a center, a hamburger joint, or commercial "carrots". They only want
the graves protected from sinking ground and erosion factors.3- The
friends of the family association, are the ones who lobbied for/offered to
contribute to a simple Andy Gump or two. Years and lotsa letters later, there
was a 1-use AG that was completed on Sept. 9, 2007. Just in time for the 350+
visitors, media and church leaders who attended the 150th anniversary program on
Sept. 11.4- Had this anniversary not shared the same date as
2001's tragedy, there would have been hundreds more trying to utilize one
toilet and a small asphalt lot at the end of a mile-long bumpy dirt road.
@LValfre : The problem with your problem is that it is bogus--a straw man. 1)The $1.5 billion reported by the LDS church are separate funds
specifically designated for large scale disaster relief and humanitarian
projects and makes for an intellectually dishonest comparison to the cost of the
CCC. You fail to consider the enormous sums of money spent over the same time
period on the LDS Church's vast welfare system which assists untold numbers
of individuals and families.2)Most credible sources put the cost of
CCC at $1.5 to $2 billion. $3 billion for that scale of a project is a stretch
and $5 billion approaches the realm of the absurd.3) Most reasonable
people with a cursory knowledge of the structure of the LDS church understand
that saying the LDS church built CCC refers to the commercial, tax-paying
subsidiary that built it.4) Stay open to the possibility that the
6000 acres of farm land will be used, gasp, as farm land, and will be
incorporated into the LDS church's welfare system for, you know, helping
Indep RLDS,What do you mean by an "asset that needed to be
I can understand how the LDS would be happy. However, I find little joy in
this. My father managed the 6000 acres of farm land for over 30 years. It was
purchased in trust to assist those gathering to Independence. It was sold,
sadly, because it appears it was only an asset that needed to be converted.
@Rifleman,Regarding why you tithe: "They do it because they
love the Lord and show it by obeying Him."Funny I though tithing
was all about helping our fellow man ...
"RiflemanThe City Creek development cost the LDS Church
approximately $1.5B. Just think of the return on that investment they will
earn."And that's a big problem with me.1. LDS
church reported giving 1.5 billion to Humanitarian aid since 1985. 2. Their costs for a profitable venture in the last few years cost 1.5
billion (seems low from other sources I've read, more likely 3-5
billion)3. You claimed the LDS church built the mall. My
understanding is their 'for-profit(prophet)' wings built the mall. If
the LDS church did then the government would surely stop their tax exemption
(which it should anyways until we get an audit).4. We'll see
if this farm lands becomes malls, shopping centers, or some sort of other
profitable venture some day. The problem is the PROFITS are supposed to go to
help PEOPLE not build more profits. That's purely business, not divinely
Thinkman Provo, UT"Yes, the LDS church is very rich thanks to the
faithful who pay their tithing so they can attend the temple and be in good
standing with their leaders."The LDS faithful don't pay
tithing so they can attend the temple or please their leaders. They do it
because they love the Lord and show it by obeying Him. Why should it bother a
nonmember if the LDS Church has enough money to buy some property.
Thinkman: It surprises me so little that you know about The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints finances. If you did you wouldn't make such
snide remarks as you just did. The audit that is done twice a year is from an
independent audit system. Yes, it is true that an auditor is called in each
Stake to perform both the Stake and associated units of the Stake. What you
fail to understand is that more individuals are excommunicated for using those
funds donated incorrectly. In fact, it is always under two person control from
the time it enters the Clerks office until it leaves. Every year as you are
aware tithing settlement is done so that individuals can see what they have
donated. They are then provided copies for tax purposes if they so wish to have
them filed.Secondly, there is a difference between what is donated
and what the Church has. I bet you didn't know that the LDS Church
doesn't buy something unless the money is available. Yet, you honestly
think you know more than anyone where the money goes. Fact is once it leaves
your hand it is God's.
RikitikitaviHow do you know the the LDS church is extremely prudent
with its finances? How does anyone know except the Quorum of the 12, Presiding
Bishopric and Monson?They aren't audited by an outside entity,
nor do they have any accountability for the tithing and other donations that
their members give to them so the members themselves can attend the temples that
With expenditures such as City Creek it seems axiomatic that the LDS Church has
a lot of money. However, we do not know if the purchases are prudent since the
LDS Church does not disclose its finances to its members who support it. I have
no doubt the actual amount of these properties will come forth via the COC,
since they do disclose their finances to their members. I have been surprised
that many people view the COC negatively. They are fellow believers of the
Restoration who have their own rich history apart from the shared history with
Should the Church be prudent and fair with the Mountain Meadow property?Should they replace the cross that was torn down at the rock cairn
site?What would Jesus do?
Unlike our federal government that spends all that comes in plus a few trillion,
the Church knows that there will be hard times when tithing goes down due to
lack of employment. The Church keeps reserves and invests them in areas that are
safe - land being one of them. 6000 acres might be a bit more than an historical
site needs, but there are always chapels and temples to be built. And if the
need arises, the excess land can be sold. I don't think the Church will
build there too soon, but some tasteful improvements to the historical site
would be welcomed. And there is always money for Haiti and other
we need to calm down...scientist did make a reasonable comment..yes we do have
money...and we means we the church..we are so blessed to know that our church
belongs to we the people...we pay our tithing as we should according to the
bible and what the Lord wants us to do..and because of that we have truely been
blessed...in many ways and not just money...what better way to spend that hard
earned money then to purchase land that belongs in a historical content to both
the christ church people and the LDS people..this way its kept up..I also am
sure we have someone at church headquarters who manages our money very well. we
are the church ...I too am grateful for the sacrifice of the christ church
people in deciding to keep it within the realm of our feelings about the
sacredness of the areas....I truely believe in paying my tithing so we can have
these kinds of blessings...God instructed us to do this and we obeyed..I am so
grateful to our Fahter In Heaven and the Savior Jesus Christ for all our
The LDS Church is extremely prudent with it's financial resources. There
are countless examples of wise purchases which are the result of prudent fiscal
management. It's only when you have no cash that you cannot take advantage
of great business opportunities. Land, when purchased wisely, has always been a
Rifleman,Any group that takes (or receives, depending on your
perspective) 10% of its members' incomes and contributes back to them by
building them temples that require 10% of its members' incomes better do
well with that money.Yes, the LDS church is very rich thanks to the
faithful who pay their tithing so they can attend the temple and be in good
standing with their leaders.
To Alon SLC UT 11:03 am May 6th.What a wonderful suprize to
see your comments that Josiah Hammer was your gggrandfather.He also
happens to be my ggg grandfather. How can we further communiate to link ourgenealogy lines?
Whether the CoC or the LDS church owns it is irrelevant to me since I'm
part of neither church, but I'm glad to see historical landmarks being in a
position to be preserved and taken care of.
A Scientist: Nobody complains if Italian, Irish, Black, Hispanic, Asian,
Jewish, or Moslem organizations want to buy and preserve historical sites
related to their respective heritages. So why do people complain about
"money when the Mormons do the same thing? Is the only good Mormon a poor
one? Or is the one good church one that is "on the skids" financially?
A Scientist,lol! A nerve? No. I simply wondered what justification
you would offer to criticize others.If a criticism, it is
undefended. If not, then the burden of proof is on you to explain how it
isn't a criticism based on your pattern of criticisms of the LDS Church. If
not a criticism, then what? Restating the obvious? To what end? What telos?
Making trivial and pointless remarks isn't scientific either.Why criticism fails-Science isn't about simple facts or
observations- it's about exploring the unobserved. The moment an atheist
says "You are wrong" they abandon reason (by neglecting the possibility
of others having subjective experiences) and have left debate and become
hostile. Gaining knowledge isn't about proving others wrong but
investigating the unknown. The Lectures on Faith touches illustrates this and
how faith is not blind, but a reasonable motivation to expand our knowledge.I have just illustrated how the LDS understanding of faith is purely
scientific and of absolute 100% sound logic. I have also illustrated how
criticism is destructive and ignorant of reason.Working together is
a far happier approach.------- crunchem,I
got a good laugh from your analogy. Well put.
What a deal. It would have cost so much more for the maintenece and taxes of
these properties for the last 100 years. A changing of the baton between two
groups that only want preservation not financial reward.
voice of reason said to scientist:"I can reasonably induce from your
previous comments (as you are a frequent critic of the church), that your
comment here is also implying some sort of criticism"This
observation is more scientific than scientist's, which was the whole point.
people like a scientist just like to keep poking the bee hive to watch the bees
stir. perhaps he would like to perform a scientific test: what will probably
happen to one who keeps stirring up the bees?
An answer to my heart's prayerful desire! Ever since I visited the
Haun's Mill site a few years ago, I've eagerly anticipated our
purchase of that historic landmark- its sad significance notwithstanding. That
"sad significance" in all its power. by the way, can still be felt by
simply standing there. At least, that was my personal experience. Hoorah for
Re: A Scientist Provo, UT"I appear to have touched a nerve"And what nerve would that be? You made an observation that is
absolutely correct. The City Creek development cost the LDS Church
approximately $1.5B. Just think of the return on that investment they will
If you think "The Church has a lot of money" is a "scientific"
statement, makes me wonder exactly what qualifications you use to justify your
moniker. You must have gotten a really awesome degree. I suppose that would
qualify as a scientific statement as well?
We don't know the faith of "scientist." He may teach at the BYU,
lol. He is correct..."the church has a lot of money".....fact.....and
you all are correct about what the best uses of money are.
Hey bros and sisters, I think "scientist" got the last laugh, just the
responses that he wanted, lol. Leave the skeptics alone, heh, haha.I am
glad to see the prophecies all taking place...you know,,,,adam-ondi-ahman....we
will own all the land and be comfy there one day with a world in chaos.
@ A Voice of Reason, "....If you have something productive to say, positive,
or helpful- I and I believe others here would welcome it...."Although it wasn't A Scientist who told me, but they admitted it was
"fun" seeing what they could say just to see how stirred up they can get
others, therefore they are not looking for those things that might be considered
positive or helpful.I have friends who belong to the Community of
Christ Church and they have been really nice people. I too thank them for
keeping the sites and being willing to sell them to the LDS Church. I hope that
we are able to keep them in support of history and those who came before us who
made history there.Good deal, especially if both parties are pleased
with the transaction.
Provo Scientist, yes the church does have a lot of money. And your point is?
makes me happy to hear of this passing of the torch. hopeful of more to come.
Thank You Rifleman for making a point that I would have said myself. The church
teaches frugality and prudence and wise stewardship. It is a great example to
follow and our nation would be better if ALL would learn from these lessons,
ESPECIALLY our government, but they have a completely different agenda.
A Scientist,I believe you have a right to earn and spend money as
you want- whether spending it yourself or through an extension of your beliefs.
I wouldn't criticize your right to own and control your own property, so I
expect the same courtesy. I can reasonably induce from your previous comments
(as you are a frequent critic of the church), that your comment here is also
implying some sort of criticism. By all means, the LDS Church buying land that
is relevant to LDS History and is of great importance to the membership that
funds the church- that the LDS Church has done nothing wrong here.If
you have something productive to say, positive, or helpful- I and I believe
others here would welcome it. But a constant barrage of pessimism, criticism,
and even insults- no matter how you justify it to yourself, it isn't
welcome, it isn't right, and it can't withstand a perfect
judgement.Surely, if you examined how much time you spend
criticizing the LDS Church on here- you would see how better you could have
spent your time. Here's a reasonable scientific question. What does your
Re: A Scientist Provo, UT"The LDS Church sure has a lot of
money."Yes, it is an example of industry and prudent financial
wisdom. Those who understand interest earn it while those who don't will
always be poor and pay it.The United States would do well to follow
the financial example of the LDS Church and then the federal government would
also have "a lot of money".
i first want to say....good.... then, i know one of the leadership of the
community of christ church and he stated 4 years ago over and over and over
'my church will never sell your church haun's mill or any property
!'....hello. i am glad the church was able to acquire the land. i want to
be mature and not say what i want to say. should i be good ? guess i had better
Dear Provo Scientist - If you claim to be a scientist, say scientific things,
not supercilious things.
As a convert, with no direct lineage to the pioneers, I still have great
reverence for their sacrifices, in order for me to have the Gospel in my
life.These purchases are monies well-spent. It will remain as a testiment
to the world of the church's dire beginnings, with injustices in this great
The LDS Church sure has a lot of money.
Why do we 6,000 acres of farmland (and not 600)?
I too am so glad that the Community of Christ Church has taken such good care of
these properties and has been respectful of what these sites mean. Glad that
the Church did purchase them.
Yes, thank you CC. I didn't realize that the LDS church did not own those
properties. I know that they will be carefully cared for and generations to
come can study the events that took place there and visit in reverence.
This is great news. Hauns mill has been part of my history since my
gggrandfather Josiah Hammer and gguncle York were killed and their bodies were
thrown down the well. Now we can find the site easier. Thanks
I have to chuckle a little, was talking to someone the other day and she told me
she was in a meeting where they said that the church had purchased three sites
in the Kansas City MO area for temple sites. Sometimes we hear what we think we
hear, and it isn't quite right. I am happy that the Community of Christ
church and the LDS church have a friendly relationship and that they are willing
to sell to the LDS church. There are only two churches that have a reverence
and respect for these properties, especially Hauns Mill, and both these churches
do not want to disrupt the true value of these places. If they Community of
Christ church had sold to a developer, then what is now farmland and a sacred
place where lives were lost, would turn into a mall or something.
Not exactly news in Independence, where the announcement was made some weeks
ago. I personally think that this is a win-win situation for both churches. It
gives Community of Christ something like $41 million to spend on more pressing
needs and puts these historic sites (not to be confused with the Kirtland Temple
and Joseph Smith properties in Nauvoo) in the hands of a body that can afford to
save them and develop them.
Could this be a prelude to the eventual acquisition of the Kirtland Temple,
among other historical sites and documents owned by the seller?
This is exciting news. I hope someday soon that the Community of Christ will
sell the rest of their property in Kirkland (including the Temple) and Nauvoo.
They have distanced themselves from the restoration of the Church to the point
that these properties just don't mean to them what they mean to the LDS.
Despite its tragic history, Haun's Mill is a peaceful pastoral place where
the main background sound is that of frogs croaking in the nearby creek. I hope
farming is maintained there, and that quiet atmosphere my cousin and I
experienced when we visited it will remain.
Sadly ironic that the sign pictured with this article at the Haun's Mill
site is all shot up. I'm grateful to the Community of Christ Church for
being willing to sell the property. These sites certainly merit preservation.
I'm grateful that the church has these locations in it's possession
because they will be maintained with the utmost care. I'm grateful to the
Community of Christ church that kept the land for us to visit for so many years.
All around it's a win/win situation.
Wonderful news. One has heard, over the years, of the financial difficulties of
the Community of Christ (former Reorganized LDS Church). The LDS Church has the
better means to secure these historic sites. Kudos to the RLDS (CC) for taking a
good stewardship for this very long time, and for conveying them to the LDS
Church at this time.