@JustChuck The funeral text thing has more recently pretty much been dismissed
as a non-issue. And regarding the use of the word translation, would it somehow
make it more clear to everyone if in describing various methods of translating
the church alternated between "peeping" or "inspiration" or
"meditating" or "hat-looking" or "seerstoning"? Does it
really make a difference? Isn't it just easier to use one or two common
words that are understood to mean "change from one language into
another" like "translate" or "interpret". Does it really
matter if say, 1 Nephi was translated with Urim and Thummin but Alma was
rendered with a clear stone? Either way, it's translating, so just chill.
beatrice,"Anyone who does not believe Mormonism is called anti-LDS.Then with that logic,Anyone who does not believe in Christianity, and
Christianity alone, could be calledanti-Chrisitian...correct?YOUR logic, not mine.Mormons are taught "anti" from the
cradle. Perhaps we could use the termNON-LDS and NON-CHRISTIAN"(shakes head) Who said anyone not a member of the church is against the
church? That's just silly. Only one who fights and impugns the church and
its members would properly be called anti. Many of my neighbors are not
members, and we live in peace. They are not "anti", just neighbors.
Only the obsessed attacker of the church down the street would be considered an
"anti"; he knows it, and I know it. Mormons arenot taught
"anti" from the cradle; they figure it out later, and usually apply it
properly.You have not properly applied any logic here, just
perpetuated the illusion of Mormons' supposed intolerance.
It's hard to muster large amounts of sympathy over the misconceptions of
the Mormon faith as long as the church still actively promotes them. Last time I checked, the missionaries and the church's website still
promote standard definitions of "translation" when referring to the Book
of Mormon and Book of Abraham. Investigators and members alike are forced to
visit "anti-Mormon" sites to hear any mention of peep stones in a hat or
Egyptian funeral texts. And until the church chooses to be more forthcoming
about these things, there will still be a huge shock value registered among
members and non-members alike when they learn the church chooses to use a simple
word like "translate" to mean something that none of us ever imagined
@donn"The “pale” of Christianity believes the birth
of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost same Greek word. God the
Holy Spirit,3rd person of the Trinity ,no problem for Christians."About that trinity. What ever became of Christs body after he was resurrected.
If there is a trinity does that mean Christ is the only one in it who has a who
has a body?
@atl134“1. That's insulting.2. This is why people
think the LDS church tries to hide stuff since you're expressing
encouragement for withholding some information from potential
converts.”I guess Christ was insulting also. He first made the
Discussion in these "comment sections" become problematic because of our
use of words to convey meanings. We don't universally apply identical
meanings to the same words, and it can become insulting if true intents are not
clear. One misunderstanding leads to a counter misunderstanding, and off we
go.Another problem is: you do not have to be wrong for me to be
right, or visa versa. Additional misunderstandings occur when
explanations by Church leaders and others are taken as doctrine, or merely taken
out of context for lack of attention span. There are very few actual doctrines,
but being human, we beg for explanations. It is sometimes in these explanations
that speculations creep in. Stick to doctrines. Doctrine=Jesus is
the actual Son of God. Speculation=Anything dealing with how this was
accomplished. Doctrine=Jesus Christ has restored His church to the
earth. Speculation=when that restoration has become complete.When
Mormons speak of the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, we picture the third member of
the Godhead. Other Christians picture God Himself. Mormons do not believe Jesus
is the child of the third member of Godhead, but we do believe he is the Son of
Anyone who does not believe Mormonism is called anti-LDS.Then with
that logic,Anyone who does not believe in Christianity, and Christianity
alone, could be called anti-Chrisitian...correct?YOUR logic,
not mine.Mormons are taught "anti" from the cradle. Perhaps
we could use the termNON-LDS and NON-CHRISTIAN.
Convert in Cedar City: Whether or not you drink caffeine or have a beard has
nothing whatsoever to do with Life Eternal and Salvation. Non-Christians need to
know that thereis nothing whatsoever in the Word of God about such things.
But this presents an opportunity...if it will be taken...to point out why
non-LDS consider Mormonism to be a cult. Requiring compliance to such
things is a method of mass control. I do not wishto debate that
specifically, but really hope at least one LDS here can stop and think...on your own...how such practices are perceived by non-LDS. Did
Jesus ever command women to wear only dresses to worship?Did Jesus ever
offer directions about facial hair?Did Jesus ever condone polygamy...no
matter what world you are referencing?All are NO. These kind of
commandments are made of Man and coincide with Man-madereligions.
Joseph Fielding Smith, ”They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was
begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such
Thing! Neither does the Bible!”(Doctrines of Salvation....................Who is 'they' ? Students of
Mormonism know that Mormon doctrines most certainly does NOT teach what the
Bible teaches on this....................."He is the first
of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle (Body), it was begotten by
his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel and
the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the
earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father and son in
succession…..Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the
same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in
Heaven" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51)
Read the "what ? would you like to ask Mormons" article, enjoyed reading
the questions of leaders of other churches or faiths. I used to be a mailman,
and really understand how dogs will bark fiercely until actually confronted,
then often they run away...there will be critics, probably should be, but
hopefully there is also a genuine desire to understand, give a fair listen to
the answers to these questions.
JM,I resigned from the LDS faith a few years back and I find it
entertaining to see the remarks on religious comment boards. It is fun to see
other peoples viewpoints on what they believe. I've missed
your derogatory remarks. Welcome back!
I haven't been following the DN as much as I used to, but I still find the
same full-time anti-Mormons trying to mislead with misinforming comments...
will they never see that those who can be duped have already left, and those who
can't don't fall for it? It is sad that people would spend their
time on such things, and these same people are all over the internet, sometimes
they pose as LDS, sometimes they pose as Christian, most often they are gay
activists, employed to "destroy the Utah brand".
Thank you, Jamshid. You tried. But all we have to do to "shatter Mormon
myths" is to send folk to these posts.Plenty was shattered.
What a shame.
AZRods,Thanks. I appreciate the kind words. We can let something
negative take a scoop away, but even one simple act of kindness can overflow the
gap 10-fold. I'm not keen on how things were posted on this article, but
the record stands and I believe we've provided ample enough reason for
anyone to know who is being respectful. I could say more, but I'm sure it
would be criticized. I'd rather save my energy for a debate I'm more
interested in defending. For now, suffice it to say that I agree with the rest
of your comment.
RE: Kith, "conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost" not begotten by the
Holy Ghost. Christ is begotten of the Father through the power of the Holy
Ghost. Wrong,This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about, His
mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together,
she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV).The Protevangelium, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and
between thy seed and HER seed(sperma,4690); it shall bruise thy head, and thou
shalt bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:15 LXX ). But when the fullness of
the time was come, God sent forth his Son, Made of a Woman, made under the
law,(Galatians 4:4) The “pale” of Christianity believes
the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost same Greek
word. God the Holy Spirit,3rd person of the Trinity ,no problem for Christians.
I would invite those who truly are interested in understanding the beliefs of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to read the Doctrines of
Salvation. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote this with the help of the holy
spirit and it will clear up any misconceptions you feel or have heard. There are
three volumes..I've been a member all of my 66 years of life and still
learn much and understand much clearer when I read books such as the Book of
Mormon and the Doctrines of Salvation and do it through sincere prayer. It
works...it always has and always will continue to work.
We have a "living" church, not one set in stone. Every General
Conference there are new inspired truths to guide us. Many large
and small doctrines have changed since Joseph Smith's time:1.Polygamy during mortality. Now we practice monogamy during mortality. Men,
during mortality, can be sealed to more than one woman,as long as they are dead.
Dead women can be sealed to more than one dead man (polyandry).2.
African black men can now hold the Priesthood.3. Caffiene is no
longer forbidden.4. Facial hair is now against the general rule for
leaders.And there are many more subtle and not-so-subtle changes
during this past 172 years. It is a living church. That makes it the only
effective doctrine for every generation.
donn, "conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost" not begotten by the
Holy Ghost. Christ is begotten of the Father through the power of the Holy
"It would be interesting to see if any of the critics on here each day
belong to any religion, and attend more than one time per month. And if so, it
would seem more interesting and fair to share their doctrine on this board so we
would both have something to compare to."- One doesn't need
to belong to a religion and have man written doctrine to compare ideologies. I
practice love for all and DO donate to charity. I don't do it for tax
reasons or because a church tells me to. I just love people and want to spread
that.How do you compare your doctrines to my ideology of love?
Wow! It is hard to jump into such a bitter, vitriolic exchange.
I find a voice of reason to be among the most sincere of commentators here as
well as the first to apologize if their remarks are missunderstood.I also
agree that we have a right to defend and correct when false statements are
made.Sadly, I've yet to see a critic apologize for insulting and
attacking something they know is sacred to many of us.It would be
interesting to see if any of the critics on here each day belong to any
religion, and attend more than one time per month.And if so, it would seem
more interesting and fair to share their doctrine on this board so we would both
have something to compare to.I think I already know the answer to that ;)
@ Alt134""Hopefully, they'll learn not to cast "pearls
before swine""1. That's insulting.2. This is why
people think the LDS church tries to hide stuff since you're expressing
encouragement for withholding some information from potential converts."It's unfortunate that you were offended since it was Christ who
said do not cast your pearls before swine as they will simply trample them. I
will not share thoughts sacred to me with anyone who will in turn demean or
defile them. I don't think you would either.
I agree with,, A voice of reason. The book of Mormon is where one should
read,but also read the bible with it as it will tell you the Book of Mormon will
come forth and be a withness of the bible and clear up the darkness or falling
away from the truth,just as Jesus said.He said he would restore all things
before his comming back to claim his people. But if you have questions after
reading the Book of Mormon after you have prayed if it is true ,the best place
to go to ask questions is, mormon.org.I pray you will recieve your withness to
the truth of all things. In The name of Jesus The Christ. Amen
RE: American man, What are some of the LDS beleifs that do not match those of
Jesus Christ? I would like to hear some of them.The
“pale” of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was a unique
miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost.”They tell us that the BoM
states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.
The BoM teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”( Joseph
Fielding Smith)A precious and chosen vessel, who shall be
overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost and bring forth a son
yea, even the Son of God. ( Alma 7:10) The Holy Ghost shall come
upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.(Luke
1:35 KJV) . The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births
of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and
blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115).
Do any of us remember Elder Russell Ballard's conference address from a few
years ago? Essentially, he said that when we are asked a question, just answer
the question. You don't have to give the entire Journal of Discourses, the
Several Thousand Years, and the Encyclopedia of Mormonism while callling the
ward mission leader to have him fill up the font!!! (I admit to paraphrasing
here!)The point is, we sometimes get so excited to think we've
Got An Investigator, that we forget that we're just talking to a friend or
colleague. Slow the ponies down. Just answer the question And it doesn't
hurt to use a normal tone of voice, not your eccleastical leader-voice! This is
a friend you're addressing and you probably want to keep the friendship.
beatrice:What are some of the LDS beleifs that do not match those of
Jesus Christ? I would like to hear some of them.
@Jeanie b."Are you a potential convert?"I was a member
for 4 years. @Riverton Cougar"Have you taken math classes?
When did you realize that they were "hiding stuff" from you about
mathematics? How about we just start teaching number theory in elementary
school! "That's a faulty comparison. @Moontan"A Mormon critic, frequently here to insult, complaining
about being insulted. "I'm actually trying to help by
pointing out that it's insulting because it is and I don't think
members who've spent their whole lives in the church understand that it is
insulting to non-members and potential converts. I understand that because I was
a convert to the church so I know what things do and don't annoy
prospective members. That's part of why I'd been told I would make a
good missionary by several people when I was a member.
Hello everyone. USALover, you were offended by the "Pearls before
swine." comment. Jesus said that, remember, when speaking of non-believers.
Here is what it means. Pearls are soft and swine (an animal that the Jews of
the time could relate to) would simply trample and break the pearls. Today when
something of value (LDS beliefs) are put before the media etc. often the values
are "broken" up like the swine would do to pearls. In other words the
pearls are soft, beautiful gems and swine (populace) sees no value in them.
That is all that it means. Remember, the woman would even take the "crumbs,
like a dog" that Jesus had to offer her.Understand, then criticize.RespectfullyBrother Ed
@Utes11 and A Voice of Reason - click on "Last week's line of
inquiry" in the last paragraph of the DN article, and it will take you to
the 10 questions.
Utes11,AMEN! I went to the site but didn't find them (though I
didn't look long). That was the most interesting part of the article...
then it didn't deliver! lol
Jamshid, what does 'compiled' mean? I was reading your article
and looking forward to reading the ten questions from the Texas Blag....and then
it stopped. WHAAAA?You mention them and then don't tell us the
questions. Journalism 101.Can you list the questions please.
Thank you for the article! I agree that we need to get the misconceptions
corrected. And I am on a mission to make sure that this country starts doing
its own homework and stops using Google and Wikipedia for its prime source
documents. My husband and I pass out Books of Mormon, the writings of Joseph
Smith and all original LDS Church materials to all the classes we teach on
Mormonism in our commmunity and at our evangelical church. We
invite members, leaders, teachers and missionaries to share, define and give
their testimonies. Our Q&A sessions are informative and good exchanges
always occur. You'd think that our local LDS ward just 2 blocks away would
flood our classes, but whatever responses we get are always a blessing and great
friendships ate formed.My friends and peers always ask how I could
have considered Mormonism as Biblical when Joseph's original message was
that the Bible wasn't accurate and all churches were wrong. When I
explain what we were taught and that our religious terms have different
meanings, then they understand. The same as defining the differences between
Catholicism and Protestantism, distinctions must be shared.
Some find, some will never see, others throw it away...
LValfre,I suppose I must have offended you. All I can say for it is
that I am sorry.I stand up for what I believe and know. But if
people want to know what constitutes as "Mormon", they should read the
Book of Mormon- not the commentary of a sinner, an imperfect human being with
flaws. The spirit of God bears record of the truth and those who read your
commentary and my own will know that truth and have a chance to accept it or
deny it.-------Whenever I read the Book of Mormon I feel
inspired to be kind to others and a better person. I often don't do as I
should, but God's Church and His work is untarnished because of my
imperfection.If people want to know what "Mormon" really
means, in the Book of Mormon we find a plan of happiness, a path of repentance
and forgiveness, and most of all the way to return to our God who loves us to be
with our families forever. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus
Christ and a great and literal tiding of Joy.That is where visitors
Re: Disco Vega ,let people see and read what the LDS faith is all
about...nothing to hide?The “pale” of Christianity believes
the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, same Greek
word(Pneuma).Joseph Fielding Smith, ”They tell us that the BoM
states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.
The BoM teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”(Doctrines of
Salvation.A precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed
and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost and bring forth a son yea, even the
Son of God. ( Alma 7:10) The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and
the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing
which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.(Luke 1:35 KJV). The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our
children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood
was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115). Which do you
A Mormon critic, frequently here to insult, complaining about being insulted.
Beam me up. Jeanie b ... Keep Proverbs 1:22 in mind when you read
the venom here. Special emphasis on 'delight in their scorning'.
"This is why people think the LDS church tries to hide stuff since
you're expressing encouragement for withholding some information from
potential converts."Have you taken math classes? When did you
realize that they were "hiding stuff" from you about mathematics? How
about we just start teaching number theory in elementary school! There's
nothing to hide, kids!
I think articles like this are great...let people see and read what the LDS
faith is all about...nothing to hide. Once those who have a real interest
learn, they will come away with an honest opionion. -- those who throw hate,
bigotry around will always do so regardless of what they read, listen to or
Alt 134 - Are you a potential convert?A potential convert is
interested in knowledge about the church. There are those that are only
interested in arguing and poking at the church - somehow because it exists they
are offended. (like Joseph Smith said - something to the effect that those who
leave the church cannot leave it alone.)Would you share special and
personal things with someone who hates you and jabs at you every chance they
get? Would that be with holding information?Potential converts
aren't referred to as "swine". Angry, bitter people are.
Midvaliean,Understood. Thank you.MormonCowboy,I think that "true Mormon beliefs and thought patterns" are quite easy
to determine. Simply review General Conference.As to concrete
doctrine. I suppose if you were raised in the church it might be harder to
recognize how concrete the doctrine of the church is (this not meant as a put
down, just an observation reference when we are familiar with something from a
young age).For me and those I know who have come into the church,
nothing could be further from the truth. There were points of agreement and
disagreement with prior faith and many points that simply were never addressed
except within the church. To me, it seemed far more concrete in doctrine than
the other faiths with which I was familiar. In fact, a lack of concreteness was
one of the reasons I left my prior faith.
@USAlover"Hopefully, they'll learn not to cast "pearls before
swine""1. That's insulting.2. This is why people
think the LDS church tries to hide stuff since you're expressing
encouragement for withholding some information from potential converts.
@Twin Lights, My comment was a little generic. Although it certainly
applies to Mormons, it also applies to most other people on the planet with a
religion. Just food for thought.
Midvalean,I was not born into the church. Nor was my spouse. Our
children were.If there is a true religion, then it only stands to
reason that some will inherit that destiny. Others will have to find it on
"A Voice of Reason, among several others, stand out in my mind as great
examples of true Mormon beliefs and thought patterns"I suppose
that depends on what we mean by "true Mormon beliefs and thought
patterns". This comes across very Orson Scott Card'ish to me. We would
like to be the authorities even over Mormon people, to say who is representative
of the whole, vs, who is not. It would be far more helpful to point how a person
can recognize this, in a meaningful way that allows everyone to reach a
reasonable concensus. The primary challenge in Mormonism is that there is very
little concrete doctrine. Everything beyond a general belief in Jesus Christ and
Mormon authority, is fluid in Mormonism. From there we get these authoritative
sounding statements from people with no institutional authority.
As more Mormons are asked about their faith, they will become more deft at
answering the questions. It has always amazed me how Mormons feel they have to
share the most sacred information and are subsequently shocked when they are
dismissed or mocked. Hopefully, they'll learn not to cast "pearls
before swine" and allow other people to find out for themselves through
their own study, pondering and prayer.That which is sacred and
"hidden from the world" was meant to be, until the individual really is
sincere in his search for truth.
How interesting. The religion you were born into is the most correct and true
religion, all others are wrong.
Isn't it wonderful that some columnists actually try to print good factual
information? Bless them for their effort and integrity!
Amazing the amount of "anti" readers of the Deseret News. A lot of
rascals who want to shake our faith. It only shows their ignorance of the
Re: M.G. Scott, you know all of the doctrines(Mormonism) of Jesus Christ. Well,
you don't. Most Christians who read only the New Testament would find it
hard to agree on the different teachings. Baptism for the dead. True, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather,
be afraid of the One who can Destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt 10:28) Mosiah 2:39,”And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on
that man; therefore his’ Final doom’ is to endure a never ending
torment.(Mosiah 3:25)…to shrink from the presence of the Lord
into a state of misery and endless torment whence they can’ No more
Return’; therefore they drunk damnation to their own souls.
Yes, reading comments after political articles would give some a view on Mormons
- and also a view on those who seem to target anything LDS with anything
negative that pops into their minds. It would seem to me a person could be much
happier if they didn't feel a need to have a target to shoot at - almost
daily. By the way - how clear is the average Christian on basic
Christian doctrine? I have noticed it changes quite a bit from church to church.
Seems to me there are many interpretations of the same scripture passages. Does
this make Christianity a myth?
After long-term discussions with LDS about their doctrines,it is quite clear
that they often do not know what is in their own doctrines. I have heard
answers that make it clearthat some practices are demanded in some wards
and not at all in others.That would make the entire doctrine to be a
"myth".Explanations of "what Joseph Smith really
meant" abound when modern LDS realize howmuch of their beliefs do not
match those of Jesus the Christ.It is altered, glossed over and
"softened" for PR purposes. Having this Mormon Mythexposure is
the best thing that has happened for Christianity in a very long time.
Second that ThornBirds. If they read LDS comments on here they'd have a
better feel for them. A Voice of Reason, among several others, stand out in my
mind as great examples of true Mormon beliefs and thought patterns.
Voters across the US should read the comments written by "LDS" members
following these political articles. That could certainly give a new meaning to
the word "delightful".