Comments about ‘LDS officials meet with with Soulforce group’

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Published: Monday, April 23 2012 6:00 p.m. MDT

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"All semantic hair-splitting and sophistry."

Here's a nice comparison. God commands man to "cut down this tree". Man says "sorry God but I got lazy and forgot to do it. Plus that Satan guy told me not to". God commands "Okay, now you must cut down these two trees instead but only the cherry trees."

It's pretty simple. Man was the factor of change. God may require more or less of us, may command one thing then revoke it in another breath. But God doesn't change. You can call it sophistry, but then by your own way of thinking so is everyone else. You don't think we could apply that analogy to anyone else? It can apply to parenting and a million other examples.

Just cause you want to label other people as sophists, doesn't make it true. Fact is, your own arguments are showing far more flaws than the religion you seem to oppose so much.

m.g. scott

Re: Sneaky Jimmy
....why does he (God) allow children to be born with attraction to the same sex?"

That assertion opens the door to a multitude of possible questions. Why does God allow people to be born with sexual attraction to children? Why does god allow people to be born with the desire to murder? Why does God allow people to be born with no malice or hatred toward their fellow man at all? Why does God allow some people to be born with exceptional intellence? Why does God allow people to be born with disabilities. Ect. ect. ect. I'd say that there is a lot of stuff, good and bad, that God allows. You can't judge peoples actions on just the fact that God allowed it. It is the old standard principle of Free Agency at work.

Huntington Beach, CA

Lagomorph, homosexual actions are a sin, period. Even if a homosexual couple were to marry, it is still a sin, period.

Sneaky Jimmy
Bay Area, CA


so God has always been indecisive and tentative? Speaking of sophists, was your comparison vignette meant to support your premise that God doesn't change? I think we would all do well to be ready to accept change and make sure it is positive.


@Sneaky Jimmy:

"Lastly, if homosexuality goes against God's plan why does he allow children to be born with attraction to the same sex? Please watch "Modern Family". The gay couple seem to be doing a good job of raising up a family."

Really? Using a fictional TV show to prove that gay couples do a great job of raisin a family? Hollywood has been pushing the LGBT agenda for years. That has no bearing on what is truth.

The simple truth is, people are not born with same-sex attraction, and they can change it with help. Evergreen has every right to help those who do not want to be gay. There are thousands and thousands who have overcome this.

That is the big truth the LGBT Community does not want everyone to know. If you can change your sexual attraction, it is not something you can get governmental discrimination protection for.

Huntsville, UT


Your church is the one that needs to apologize.

They're the ones interfering in, and materially damaging the lives of GLBT American Citizens. It isn't us who is terrorizing Mormons, it's the other way around. We're not the ones campaigning to revoke your rights, you're campaigning to revoke our rights as Americans.

Please, get your facts straight.


Bigotry is a sin. Period.

Utes Fan
Salt Lake City, UT

"We're not the ones campaigning to revoke your rights ... Please, get your facts straight."

Let's see. Photographers, fertility doctors, dating websites, hotel owners, etc have all been sued or forced to change by the pro-gay agenda.

Please get your facts straight.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

When will the uber-right realize that being gay is not a sin?

It’s sexual relations outside of wedlock, regardless of sexual orientation, that would constitute a religious sin.

And being gay is not against the law.

Therefore, why all the anti-gay discrimination laws?

And as for neighbors….
Give me a gay couple over a Conservative, Republican, drug addict, married and divorced 4 times with no Family and NO children [Rush Limbaugh, your hero] hypocrite any day….

Here, UT

@Utes Fan;

No, you failed to address the facts. They're being sued because they refuse to obey the law and not discriminate. If you CHOOSE to go into business, you CHOOSE to abide by the laws regulating businesses and if you don't you get sued. It's quite simple really. Using your religion to justify discrimination when you go into business doesn't justify failure to obey the law.

For all of you using God's name in vain and quoting what he wants/says/etc., please provide one single shred of proof that your God is better than my God, and then perhaps, just perhaps, I'll follow his dictates. Until then, I'm under no obligation to follow your God in the least, so please, quit trying to force me to do so.

Bronx, NY

So basically the refutation of my comments are that because your religion says it is a sin and equal to murder then it is a fact and people should accept it as fact not be offended, further we should exchange the stories in the bible as history rather then actual history and should blindly accept your beliefs and accept it is harmful to society despite all quantified and qualified evidence to the contrary and that gays do not have the right to marriage because you said so. Sounds reasonable to me I don't know why I was arguing with you. oh thats right its not rational.

salt lake, UT

@bill in Nebraska 8:36 pm
So because your religious beliefs support you we should not find it insulting?

@bill in Nebraska 8:36 pm
So because you accept your religious beliefs as history george does not understand history and need to learn history? he may not understand your religion but it sound like he understands history and history does not support your claims.

@freedom in danger
“America is a diverse country with different beliefs. Sometimes yours won't win out in the end. Why is that such a problem for everyone?”
If you could provide some actual evidence of a social harm I would agree but all we hear is les and religious dogma as justification. That is not winning out it is bullying into submission by pure force of numbers. The reason we fight on for a rational response is because for those that are being denied access to marriage this is not simply an intellectual exercise or simply a battle of wills.

Utes Fan
Salt Lake City, UT


"They're being sued because they refuse to obey the law and not discriminate"
Why is it no surprise that so many people are opposed to gay marriage then???? Here is an example:

A hotel owner in Utah cannot be sued for refusing to host a gay marriage because gay marriage is illegal in Utah. That scenario won't happen. A hotel owner in Vermont CAN and has been sued because... drumroll... gay marriage is legal there! GET IT?

It takes simple logic to conclude that the legalization of gay marriage simply erodes the freedom of conscience as I have just demonstrated. Not to mention that when many of these business owners started their business, it wasn't required then by law to be forced to allow gay marriage. I don't blame them for opposing gay marriage - their business was there first.

The legalization of gay marriage gradually erodes the right to refuse to participate in gay functions as I just demonstrated. We all need to survive and work and start businesses and gay marriage forces us to accept it. Not to mention that the day will come when it will be taught in schools, etc.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

Just because someone is born with same-sex attraction doesn't mean they have to act upon it. Our Heavenly Father has given us weaknesses so that we will humble ourselves before him. Ranchhand: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church of Jesus Christ in the world. All the others are not his Church PERIOD.

The Family,A Proclamation to the World is not just for MORMONS. It is for the entire world because our Father in Heaven is speaking through his prophets. Whether you believe it or not doesn't matter. You will be held accountable for that. The joy you speak of is for this life only, not for the world to come. To sit there and judge me because I hold to the fact that Jesus Christ has spoken through his prophets. The warning is clear and any government that goes against that will be held accountable in due time by the Lord. Just because its been 5 years, 10 years doesn't matter. It is his time and his earth. We came here with the claim that we would obey all his commandments.


@bill in Nebraska
I have to wonder if you have the ability to understand that your beliefs are not the same as observable reality and that just because you believe something is true or history does not make it either one.

Sorry Charlie!

there is a mountain of evidence to support that gay parents are more the competent. A simple google search for the APA, NASW, AMA, APS will provide more research then you will ever want to read. "There are thousands and thousands who have overcome this." really please provide one credible study or research to support that claim. Again google any of the above organizations and they have a mountain of research showing what evergreen is doing is not only not effective but harmful. Know I will not sit here and claim that there are not some people such as counter intelligence that genuinely feel they have "overcome" being gay or may have chosen to remain celibate which they have every right to do but the bottom line is what evergreen does is go against all scientific evidence and facts and tries to repair people that are not broken.

Layton, UT

I find this article disappointing in that it doesn't specifically state the issues that soulforce claims to have with the LDS church. One of the reps claimed the church said one thing and did another, or something to that effect. Some reporter needed to call them on the carpet, to name specific instances where this was the case, and exactly where soulforce's expectations lie. It would certainly give the readers a better sense of the sort of organization soulforce is, and whether it is a radicalized group, one that's ignorant of LDS beliefs and practices, or whether it has legitimate concerns. Also a reporter should have asked SPECIFICALLY its concerns with Evergreen International, rather than just assuming that the two bodies can't coexist.

Anyhow I was hoping for more from the article. Thanks.

m.g. scott

To LDS Liberal

HMMMMMMMM.... A little "judgemental" arn't we.

Just between you conservatives and me, that is so typical of liberals. They like to think of themselves as the open minded tolerant, accepting ones, but that only applies to the ones on "their side".

m.g. scott

Marriage these days is more of a civil union than a religious one. It was started by God in the Bible, but today you can go to Vegas and drive thru and get married and a Happy Meal to go. Or, you can have Elvis marry you at the "Hitchen Post". Frankly, I don't care if 2,3,5,or 10 people want to marry in todays irrerevent society. The real issue with the LDS Church will be if the day ever comes that same sex couples want to be Sealed in the Temple. Now that will be something to talk about.

Salt Lake valley, UT

The LDS church advocates marriages between a man and a woman that are regulated by government. Only men and women who have obtained a government license can be married. Only persons approved by government can perform marriages. The LDS church recognizes marriages performed by persons approved by government, regardless of whether the persons being married are members a church or religion, as long as the persons are a man and a woman.

What I don't understand is why members of the LDS church favor governmental regulation of marriage when they disagree with governmental regulation of other aspects of their lives.

I don't know the history of marriage very well, but I suspect that governments began regulating marriages when the governments began regulating religion. In the case of Christianity, this was when the Roman government adopted Christianity as a state religion. It seems to me it is time for government to stop regulating marriage and to focus on civil rights through civil unions, and to let social groups, adopt what ever form of marriage the groups want.

Salt Lake valley, UT


Take away government regulation of marriage, and the LDS church would be the only group responsible for determining who can have a Temple marriage. With governmental regulation of marriage, governments have the final say as to who can be sealed in a LDS Temple. As you said, that will be something to talk about.

As long as the LDS church and many LDS members cling to government regulation of marriage, they risk having government decide that couples of the same sex can be sealed in a LDS Temple. It seems to me that the safest approach is to push for deregulation of marriage, thus letting the LDS church have the final say who can be sealed in a Temple.

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