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Comments about ‘LDS officials meet with with Soulforce group’

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Published: Tuesday, April 24 2012 8:52 p.m. MDT

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A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

"We feel that there are some places where there is a difference between what the church has said and what it is doing. We want to be able to talk about that."

In the LDS Church, there is God and God's prophet. The two can't control the actions of the membership of the church and critics of the church (most often being former members) often like to disagree with how God or His prophet is "running the show". Some want the LDS Church to change its core doctrine (which can't happen). Others want the LDS Church to more swiftly punish members who 'misbehave'. I have heard calls for excommunicating leaders and members over the smallest of general complaints before.

In my experience, I have witnessed many persons misbehave very seriously, make false and inappropriate accusations of others, and react with hatred to statements of loving concern- statements that while including no inappropriate or ill-willed remarks, were accused of such. I have seen people willingly choose to be offended where no offensive act existed- then blame the church in hatred.

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There is equally a difference in what is often accused, and what the church/members is doing.

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@voice of reason
what you say is true as far as it goes but I also know that sometimes the church and or one of its members actually is offensive and/or does act poorly. My experience with you in particular is that you are very quick to lay down very offensive comments then turn around and even more quickly take offense.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

spring street,

I'm not perfect and I often admit it. I often apologize if I over-step in my comments and I've learned to do it less over time. I think we all share in that, otherwise no one would ever argue. I don't appreciate your criticism of me at all. The most offensive of my comments are still only ever reactionary to others who are criticizing the LDS Church unjustly. Note that it is still in defense.

It isn't right to judge others. Perhaps I have offended in my remarks, but it wouldn't have ever happened had people not been inappropriately attacking the LDS Church to begin with.

I'm not claiming I'm always right and I apologize every last time I truly believe I've said something inappropriate. But I don't take offense to other opinions. I take offense when people don't think I have a right to express my own opinions as freely as they can their own.

I'm truly sorry if I've offended you, but my actions say nothing about the truthfulness or appropriateness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Period.

Cats
Somewhere in Time, UT

The Church won't change its doctrine and Evergreen won't change it's agenda. I don't know where we go from there. The Church will always be kind and loving, but it won't condone the behavior or agenda of these pro-gay groups. I don't know what else can be said.

elarue
NEW YORK, NY

I know there's a lot of concern from the LGBT community about so-called "ex-gay" organizations, and from what I've heard about Evergreen, they certainly sound like an "ex-gay" organization. From what I understand about church doctrine, having gay feelings is not a sin, only acting on those feelings, but the whole mission of Evergreen from what I understand is to supposedly change those gay feelings. On the other hand, the only other LGBT organization that's connected with Mormonism is Affirmation, who sounds like their objective is to get the church to change doctrine. So it sounds like there's really no "middle ground" organization that demands neither a change in doctrine nor any sort of "reparative[sp?] therapy."

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

Cats: it's changed many times before.

huggyface
Murray, UT

The issue comes down to the popular statement: Love the sinner, but hate the sin. The church has room for improvement in teaching members how to do this. It requires a certain firmness to your own faith to be open and accepting of others who think and act differently than you.

I have friends and colleagues that are Homosexual (I don't use the word "gay" as that means "happy") and we get along just fine. In my experience, many are more loving and less judgmental than I am and have a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Who has the greater sin? I'm glad I'm not the judge because I'm far from perfect. And it doesnt matter who has the greater sin anyways - we all need saving grace.

I'm still learning how to love everyone for who they are and accept them as a whole person- good and bad. I believe that's what the Savior would do.

George
Bronx, NY

@Voice of reason
No one has ever tried to silence you and I have never once seen you apologize for anything. You are anything but a victim.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

elarue,

"So it sounds like there's really no "middle ground" organization"

That is because there is really no such thing as a "middle ground" regarding what is moral. The question of morality is irreconcilable, as plainly evidenced by asking someone to compromise with a murderer. The dichotomy is inherent to what the meaning of "moral" or "right" is.

The only plausible compromise is choice, by choosing to agree on certain common principles- two people can compromise in sacrificing their own beliefs for the sake of peace.

The fundamental problem is that liberals aren't arguing for compromise or democracy but a "right" to state recognition- a "right" to what we as a whole own. They take our votes away in favor of their literal dictating of their morality, disregarding all other opinions. The LDS membership isn't infringing freedom, just not recognizing gay marriage choices as moral while allowing choice. This is a peaceful position. The LDS Church has even promoted equal treatment, just not equal moral recognition.

If anything, just as many owe apologies to the LDS Church leadership for libel, hatred, and violence. Sure, members have made mistakes- but the LDS Church has given no offense.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@huggyface
"Love the sinner, but hate the sin."

And that is a troublesome position to handle right since it often appears to come across as hate. Consider that a lot of evangelicals who call the LDS church a cult probably would say that they don't hate mormons... they hate mormonism and consider that lifestyle choice to be endangering the standing in heaven of mormons. Now LDS members can react to that in a variety of ways, similarly, LGBTs would response to similar statements about hating homosexuality and not homosexuals in a variety of ways.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@a voice of reason
"The fundamental problem is that liberals aren't arguing for compromise "

I don't see conservatives offering compromise. Utah pre-emptively banned civil unions too, as well as many other states.

Tolstoy
salt lake, UT

@a voice of reason

The LDS church goes beyond not recognizing it is moral and actively work to prevent gay marriage which is a civil not religious contract and do so through campaigns of miss information and surrogate such as yourself. Aggressively oppressing others rights is anything but peaceful.

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@voice of reason

you are not required to appreciate my criticism of you thats fine but I think it is more then fair. I to have yet to ever see you apologies for any of the very offensive things you say on these threads. As far as the LDS church is concerned their efforts to actively work to keep some citizens for being full members of society despite no evidence that allowing them to do so will cause any harm. The LDS church has also proven time and again they are not approve spreading miss information about such members of our society. Active suppression of others through the use of the force of law is not peaceful.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

spring street,

I apologized in my last comment and again, I apologize now. I did include that I feel I am typically heated in response to arguments instead of my being on the offense. It has happened and I admit that, but I do feel you are dramatizing your account of my commentary.

Furthermore, I have apologized several times on here and I will say yet again that my comments are forever available on this site to stand as evidence of it.

The next time there is an article where I comment, you have my full permission to quote and recount all of the most offensive things I've ever put on here. I will more than willingly apologize for them and in sincerity. I have never claimed to be perfectly right or innocent- only that my imperfections (and others) say nothing about the LDS Church and that those criticizing my opinions, other's opinions, or the LDS Church's opinions are not exempt from the same judgement and have wrongfully been offensive all the same.

I'm not sorry for what I believe, what I know, and what I hold as reasonable. For my mistakes/imperfections I absolutely apologize.

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

fair enough.

Claudio
Springville, Ut

Not to pile on, but when did "Voice of Reason" become responsible for defending the Church? They have a PR department that can handle that just fine. As a faithful member, you've been asked to share your testimony of the Gospel and the Church, not to accuse others of spreading libel, etc. or suggesting the Church could and should take legal action against others. It is not desired by the Church that you declare yourself a quasi-spokesman/woman to defend the Church against attacks, and certainly not to place people in groups and then attempt to defame them as you did with the term "liberals." There are those who by the definition of liberal are in the leadership of the Church, not to mention throughout the membership worldwide. With that in mind, you might consider how to more appropriately phrase your comments if you wish to continue to claim your strong representation to the Church. Absent that, a disclaimer stating that you don't represent my views, would be appreciated.

The Church should meet with groups like this. It fosters constructive dialogue and encourages respect among those of differing opinions. Something more on this board could emulate.

George
Bronx, NY

@voice of reason

"The next time there is an article where I comment, you have my full permission to quote and recount all of the most offensive things I've ever put on here. I will more than willingly apologize for them and in sincerity."

How about you start with your 12:17 comments where you attempt to draw parallels between being gay and being a murder. Do you really think murder is a fair comparison? could you see why that maybe offensive?

TheWalker
Saratoga Springs, UT

Church officials are meeting with the 'SoulForce' group? I wonder if they ever meet with the rank and file members to see how WE feel about the Church's increasing tolerance for homosexual lifestyles.

Lagomorph
Salt Lake City, UT

voice of reason: "[Liberals] take our votes away in favor of their literal dictating of their morality, disregarding all other opinions. The LDS membership isn't infringing freedom, just not recognizing gay marriage choices as moral while allowing choice."

There are several Christian denominations that have no problem with gay marriage and do perform same-sex marriages where legal. The LDS Church's active promotion (directly or through its membership) of California's Prop 8 and other similar political efforts to keep gay marriage illegal seems very much to me to be a "dictating of their morality, disregarding all other opinions" and an infringement on freedom. Those other denominations are being prevented by law from being able to freely exercise their religious beliefs. Is this any less a "war on religion" than the insurance contraceptive mandate?

As to the news item itself, I see this as a positive step on the part of the church, but it has been a very long time coming and is a very small step. Still, coupled with the non-opposition to LGBT antidiscrimination ordinances, there are signs of hope. Supertankers don't turn on a dime.

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@the walker

maybe they are not interested in what you think.

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