Oh, My Goodness! Thank you, thank you. Atleast it saw daylight...No cheese with my whine, just because the dialogue is over here.Cult is a divisive word. Can we agree on false gospel, another gospel, a
new/updated/restored gospel, a different gospel?I'll settle for
any you choose to highlight the impassable divide between evangelical/literal
Biblical Gospel, as is:Sans The Pope, Ellen G. White, Rutherford, Joseph
Smith, Warren Jeffs, etc.In fact, just allow us to post pure, direct
quotes from every LDS prophet on the need to correct/restore/replace/purify
post-1st century Christianity. Thank you.
Are you ever going to allow dialogue and context (i.e., my posts) that explain
the meaning and substance of Jefrress' cult comments?Are you
ever going to allow the rest of Biblical Christianity to respond to Joseph
Smith's attacks in 1830?Ditto for the next 182 years of Mormon
evangelism to every door a missionary knocks on and every General Conference
reaffirms?If you protest the moniker, why follow those tactics and
suppress dialogue and restitution with the very group to whom you claim to also
@Sharrona"The word "Trinity" was first used by
Tertullian (c.155-230)well before the Nicene creed."That still
postdates Christ’s ministry. I would like know what the first ancient
Christians were believing at the time of his ministry. I would like to see
writings from the period of 6-100 A.D.
Does this guy have even the slightest clue as to how foolish he looks right
@ HutteriteAre you truly a Hutterite or are you merely an imposter?
Sharrona... re "I know many Christian and Catholic Clergy, college professor
who have none of the above, and teach that Mormonism is a false
religion."Well, of course you do. And each time they teach that,
they are protecting their income, however grand or meager it is. Whether he
makes 10k or 10 mil, the moment a pastor says "the LDS Church is the true
Church of the Savior" he is endangering his economic security. And in a few
cases, his lavish lifestyle. The need for food and shelter is a powerful
motivator which we under-appreciate because it is easily fulfilled these days,
but when its threatened we are capable of doing/saying practically anything.
Early man didn't think of his place in the universe until he first learned
to store/grow food. In that regard, very little has changed.
I wonder if the infamous reverend Wright will endorse Obama again.That'd carry some weight....
@Moontan, Clergy opulent homes, have a private jet, expensive cars, and
compensation packages that include million dollar salaries.I know
many Christian and Catholic Clergy, college professor who have none of the
above ,and teach that Mormonism is a false religion.Re; Moontan,
And the one-essence=[hypostasis 5287,Heb 1:3] ... [not]nonsense. Christ prayed
to Heavenly Father that His followers would 'become one' 'even as
You and I are one.' True, one in unity. *one= en(John 10:30)and
We are one=(en)they are one=(en) Jn., 17:20-22..).(*en 1722, a
preposition)different Greek words, (**heis,1520=the #1)A simple example,
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (**heis)
these three agree as one(en)(1John 5:7,8 KJV&JST 3 persons one(1)God. The word "Trinity" was first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)well
before the Nicene creed.
alt134 ... You're right, very small percentage and not much of a threat at
all. As a resident of VA and Mississippi - and a former evangelical - I can tell
you passions run high on this topic regardless of numbers.
@MoontanYeah it did cut off my post... odd. Anyway, I was thinking
of the fact that the LDS church is 1.7% of Americans. Now we know most of them
are out west and Utah is 60% LDS so that means there are many parts of the
nation below 1.7%. Among those is the south where the LDS population is less
than 1%. I don't think a group that is less than 1% of a local population
is a threat to the evangelical churches that dominate there.
Sharrona ... I specifically mentioned Christian 'clergy.' I agree with
you that there are many Christian laymen who are trying to 'save'
Mormons without regard to financial gain. The claim that Church is a body of
believers and not an organization was devised only to cover the embarrassment
Christians of the time had over denominational cell-division. "One Christ
but thousands of churches? Time to redefine 'Church' so as to avoid
Paul's admonition against division." And the one-essence idea ...
nonsense. Christ prayed to Heavenly Father that His followers would 'become
one' 'even as You and I are one.' He wasn't asking that His
12 apostles would suddenly meld into one person, undivided. Alt134
... looks like you got cut off. If the deep south reference has anything to do
with low income, know that my argument applies to any clergyman receiving any
level of salary. Indeed, lower paid pastors have even stronger reasons to
dismiss us as cultists. My reference to private jets, etc., applied only to
"many of the pastors in the national spotlight..."
@Moontan"The critical thing to remember when Christian clergy attack
the LDS Church is that, in doing so, they are protecting their income, their
means of living. "The strongest attacks from Christian clergy to
the LDS church are from the deep south, an area that is approximately
Re: Moontan: The critical thing to remember when Christian clergy attack the
LDS Church is that, in doing so, they are protecting. There are many
members of the Body of Christ (Christians)who wish to share the love of Jesus
Christ to the Mormon people without financial gain, there motivation is the
saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ . Who agree that Christians and Mormons
worship at completely different altars; that Mormonism has a "different
Jesus, a different Spirit and a different gospel" (2 Cor. 11:4).The
true "church" is not an organization, but are those l of the ecclesia
(called out believers) who make up the Body of Christ. An essential: the
Catholic (universal) faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and
Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
The critical thing to remember when Christian clergy attack the LDS Church is
that, in doing so, they are protecting their income, their means of living. It really is as simple as that. Many of the pastors in the
national spotlight live in opulent homes, have a private jet, expensive cars,
and compensation packages that include million dollar salaries, a
'parsonage' allotment, free health/life insurance, etc. There is no surprise that they call us a cult. They almost HAVE to do so. What
preacher in middle age could give up all that to follow the truth? It is hard
for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. So we shouldn't take being
called cultists personally. We need to recognize the attacks for what they are:
a sad attempt to keep the fridge full of steaks instead of baloney.
I wonder how much pandering Romney had to do to get that endorsement. Pandering
= business as usual for Romney.Jeffries' hypocracy amazes me.
@Atl134. As a practicing and committed LDS former Bishop, I am
totally in agreement with you. There are too many on both sides that preach the
differences, instead of where we agree. Just think of the good that could
happen in the world if we all united under one banner, and moved forward just
preaching Christ as the Saviour of the World. Instead folks (and I mean on both
sides) tend to point fingers, instead of clasping hands.
Some seem to think a "Yeah, you were told!" attitude or a "So NOW
you're willing... ha ha ha!" attitude is appropriate. If we stand here
and mock this man I can't help but imagine a big and spacious building full
of people that we might start to resemble.Was it political
attention? To fight Obama? Or cause the man took the time to learn more and sees
not perfect agreement but enough shared views to support? Only God knows that
answer. I for one think we can show more respect that some people here seem to
be able to muster up.-------UtahBlueDevil,Set aside whether Obama was justified in wanting to force state-funded doctors
to perform abortions against their religious beliefs or lose their jobs. All the
specific details aside- state funding is more than allowing but promoting.
Threatening Doctor's jobs even more so.Legal, Just, what people
think, the truth- sure, they all can differ. What point are you trying to make?
Freedom is a two-edged sword? You may disagree with Riverton Cougar but their
argument was very apparent and well articulated- referencing Obama's recent
and well-known abortion controversy.
It continues to amaze me that some people seem to think being Christian
isn't about believing in Christ . . .
Riverton Cougar - You claim "What Obama has stated and what Obama has done
are two different things. I can't hear what Obama is saying about abortion
because his actions are screaming at me. Obama is for abortion! Have you seen
his actions lately? Have you heard about making people perform an abortion, even
if it violates their religious beliefs?"So please, share what he
has done that says he is pro-abortion... as you say action versus words. If
there is something I am not aware of, I am all ears, open to be taught.
Remember, these things have to be clearly more excessive than what Romney did
while in office in MA. You can't have one litmus for one person, and a
different one for the other.There is a big difference between what
is legal, and what people think is right.... Freedom is a two edged sword and
often cuts in both directions.
Re: sanpacoI really don't see where the confusion comes from?The “Pale” of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was a
unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, same Greek word(Pneuma).Joseph
Fielding Smith, ”They tell us that the BoM states that Jesus was
begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No
Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!”(Doctrines of Salvation).… who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost
and bring forth a son yea, even the Son of God. ( Alma 7:10) . The Holy
Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the
Son of God.(Luke 1:35 KJV) .Re; Diligent Dave : At that day the
important question for each of us will be, “What thinks Christ of
me?” Jesus said that you will die in your sins; for unless you
believe that I Am(YHWH) who I claim to be, you will die in your sins(John 8:24
Earlier today I watched New York Catholic Cardinal Dolan with Bob Schieffer on
CBS' 'Face the Nation' on Easter Sunday of this year. As the
DesNews reported before, Cardinal Dolan said—"“I
said, ‘Listen everybody. We Catholics and we Jews have felt this thing on
the other side. And now, one of the ways we can cooperate is to see that
religious prejudice, religious bigotry doesn’t enter the campaign.’
I said, ‘there may be reasons not to vote for Mitt Romney as president of
the United States, that he’s a Mormon cannot be one of
them.’”I applaud Cardinal Dolan on standing up for the
concept of not using religion as the criterion to vote against someone. And I
further laud all who iikewise stand up against religious bigotry, in any aspect
of American life. But so many have given those who try to rile up the electorate
to exact their own religious test of government office, though the US
Constitution specifically and expressly forbids it.Those who have
tried to encourage such bigotry should be ashamed of themselves. As should those
who follow them!
It is just so unfortunate that even in the 21st century there are still many who
harbor false beliefs when it comes to Mormonism and cults. No. Mormonism is NOT
a cult. Yes. Mormons are Christians. Mormons believe in Christ, they talk of
Christ, they preach of Christ and even the official name of the church is the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe it is time for
individuals to make their own study and come to their own conclusions and not
allow one individual to do their thinking for them.
The only value shared when it comes to religion is how it divides us.
What Jeffress and other Christians mean when they say that "Mormons are not
Christians" is that "Mormons believe differently on key doctrinal points
with 'traditional' Christians (Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox).
I've even seen on religious discussion websites Mormonism being further
away from 'traditional' Christian beliefs than Jews and Muslims.In all of this, we (Mormons) should rejoice!Jesus Christ
said—11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake.12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in
heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you
(Matthew 5:11 - 12)Neil L. Andersen of the Quorum of Twelve said in
April Conference—Jesus asked the Pharisees, “What think
ye of Christ?” In the final assessment, our personal discipleship will not
be judged by friends or foes. Rather, as Paul said, “We shall all stand
before the judgment seat of Christ.” At that day the important question
for each of us will be, “What thinks Christ of me?”Of
course, this is the one important test for each of us!
Let's just say cool and move forward. The Evangelical vote would be a big
boon to Mitt and the conservative movement. I believe they'll just be
shooting themselves and the rest of the country in the foot getting hung up on
the Mormon thing. As someone noted earlier the founding fathers didn't all
agree on theology. And how many non-Mormons have I voted for (as a Mormon)?
I really don't see where the confusion comes from. Christian
(noun) - A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus
Christ and his teachings.Cult (noun) - 1) A system of religious
veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. 2) A
relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded
by others as strange or sinister. 3) A misplaced or excessive admiration for a
particular person or thing. 4) A person or thing that is popular or fashionable,
esp. among a particular section of society.So let's see. LDS:
Christian baptism? check (by immersion as described in the Bible). Believer in
Jesus Christ and his teachings? check (just because there are doctrinal
disagreements doesn't mean we don't all believe in Christ as our
Savior). Religious veneration and devotion towards a figure or object? nope.
Relatively small group? nope. Strange or sinister practices? nope. Misplaced
or excessive admiration for a person or thing? nope. Popular or fashionable
among a particular section of society? hardly.Simplification: cults
worship people, Christians worship Christ. Mormons = Christians
I'll bet Mitt Romney's been holding his breath just waiting for
Reverend Jeffress to endorse him for president. Gee, thanks, Reverend Jeffress
for your approval. I'm left speechless and laughing.
"He raises the issue of Abortion, claiming Obama supports it. In fact, Obama
has stated he is against it, but that at this time, it is settle constitutional
law."What Obama has stated and what Obama has done are two
different things. I can't hear what Obama is saying about abortion because
his actions are screaming at me. Obama is for abortion! Have you seen his
actions lately? Have you heard about making people perform an abortion, even if
it violates their religious beliefs?
So many things I could say right now, but I'll take the high road and just
say every endorsement helps...
Code for:If we have to put up with Romney, in 2012, because there
are no "true Christians" available, we will do it.In other
words:jeffress will give up on his "reported principles" in
order to gain some political advantage.What else is jeffress willing
to give up?And Mitt thinks the Democrats are his only
adversaries.IF elected, Mitt is in for four years of dealing with
half the country who cannot stand him, will never accept him, a Senate without a
clear unified super-majority, as well as half of his party who settled for him
and can't wait to end that mistake in 2016.
@DonO"I still believe that Mormons, with their belief in a
resurrected, embodied Jesus, are more Christian than those who believe in some
non-descript three-in-one spirit being"As a non-LDS Christian
who regularly defends the LDS church against accusations that they aren't
Christian too... I would rather we not have to argue over who is "more
The Founding Fathers were also quite diverse in their views of
"Christianity", and yet somehow they overlooked that for a greater good.
You know, the dishonesty of a preacher misquoting peoples stances really tells
you what this is really all about. He raises the issue of Abortion, claiming
Obama supports it. In fact, Obama has stated he is against it, but that at this
time, it is settle constitutional law. You may not like it, just like drinking
or many other things that are 'legal', and you may accept that it is
now law, but that doesn't mean you accept it.There is a real
difference between supporting or even promoting something, and accepting that it
is the law of the land, and as a sworn government official, you support the law
as written.And rulings of the Supreme Court should not be subject of
political winds. This preacher needs to do his job and convince people abortion
is wrong on moral grounds. It is his job, plus all others, to put shame on this
practice. So just as there are many who choose to not drink even though it is
legal, it is his job to keep fighting that battle - not change established legal
precedent. BTW, abortion is at an all time low - so that message is working.
I still believe that Mormons, with their belief in a resurrected, embodied
Jesus, are more Christian than those who believe in some non-descript
three-in-one spirit being. Jeffress would be accurate to say something like,
"We Evangelicals share the same values as Mormons, who are Christians.
Holeeeeee crud. I did not expect this endorsement. Wow.
In a FOX interview, there was the more important comment. 2008, 30 million
"Christians" did not vote, the current administration won by 10 million.
We PLAN to get those voting. That is what the current administration OUGHT to
be worried about.Mark
Based on SOME shared values.
President Obama will be more nervous to hear that this evangelical pastor is now
supporting Romney. Obama is counting on Southern, evangelical, conservative
voters to stay home on election day rather than vote for a Mormon, Mitt Romney.
But now with the different parts of the GOP coming together to support Romney,
and recent polls showing growing support for Romney, Obama has got to be getting
nervous.I would expect another round of negativism from Obama to
come out sometime soon. Obama's campaign strategy is to divide Americans,
engage in class and religious warfare, and to cause fear among Hispanics and
women voters towards Romney.I wish Obama would present his vision
and goals for a 2nd term. He could lay out his budget that was voted down
unanimously in the House and will not be brought up in the Senate at all, but
that probably wouldn't help him. Don't know what Obama
could put forward that would be supported by a majority of Americans. That must
be why he doesn't reveal his plans and goals. It's good
that Jeffress has come around.
I'm with Cats. He basically says that Mormonism = The Manson
Family or anyone from Waco. Not the sharpest tool in the shed or the best
looking for that matter.
With friends like that, who needs enemies?
I'm not sure you'd want an endorsement from someone like Jeffress, but
he'll bring some evangelicals along with him.