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Comments about ‘Mormon Media Observer: It always comes back to Joseph Smith’

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Published: Monday, April 9 2012 8:41 a.m. MDT

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atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

Anyone who founds a religion is going to have good and bad things said about them. That's not prophecy, that's just normal.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@Red Corvette
Joseph Smith could not have founded/restored (obviously people disagree as to which it is) the religion to cover up his goings-on (whatever they were) with Fanny Alger because that didn't happen until several years after he founded/restored the church. If he had said that it led to polygamy that would've been more accurate since polygamy came slightly after that.

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"If Joseph Smith didn't translate ancient plates and if he made up the Book of Mormon out of whole cloth, O'Donell has something of a point. Brother Joseph would have to be a fraud."

That's kinda the rub isn't it? It's really hard to have a neutral stance on Joseph Smith. If he'd just been inspired then you could at least have a position of "well he was wrong... but he's still a decent guy" but when he has plates involved, that's something that's either happened or didn't.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

"It is with Joseph Smith that the rub of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lies"

I first thought this should have referenced the Book of Mormon instead of Joseph Smith (even though both points go hand in hand). But after reading this, I realize it is far more accurate.

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"We have basic cornerstones on which this great latter-day Church has been established by the Lord and built, “fitly framed together.”

They are absolutely fundamental to this work—the very foundation, anchors on which it stands...I mention first the chief cornerstone, whom we recognize and honor as the Lord Jesus Christ. The second is the vision given the Prophet Joseph Smith when the Father and the Son appeared to him. The third is the Book of Mormon, which speaks as a voice from the dust with the words of ancient prophets declaring the divinity and reality of the Savior of mankind. The fourth is the priesthood with all of its powers and authority, whereby men act in the name of God in administering the affairs of His kingdom."

-President Gordon B. Hinckley

OnlyInUtah
Cottonwood Heights, UT

I echo these comments by the author:

"Let me be one to speak of Brother Joseph, too. He is a prophet for the ages. Let me raise my voice and my heartfelt witness for this great man. Joseph Smith provided the world the remarkable Book of Mormon and guided the restoration of priesthood authority and the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

With the help of God and Jesus Christ, he provided a true miracle, for a world in desperate need of one.

Hail to the Prophet. May Joseph Smith's name and fame continue to grow."

Tornogal
LITTLE ROCK, AR

Now let's think about this. Suppose--just suppose--Joseph Smith made up the whole thing. Wouldn't part of his assurances to his followers be "Now they'll say bad things about me, but hang in there, it is all true!"

Believe in him or don't, but there is little "prophecy" in the warning that his name will be had for good and bad. Any con man does the same thing.

iron&clay
RIVERTON, UT

If Lawrence O'Donnell had an agenda against a Muslim candidate he would say crude things about Abraham taking his wife's handmaid Hagar to wife. Oh, that's right, it is only politically correct to make crude false statements about the American religion founded by Joseph Smith.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Red Corvette,

Also-

1. A few historically held the priesthood before, it just wasn't standard policy. Critics may not like it, but this fact disproves claims that the church was racist solely because of the policy. Especially when there are others who couldn't or can't hold the preisthood. Whether it be women, children, Levites, or some others. Again, critics may not like it, but these are the facts. Ignoring them for convenience is illogical and ironically prejudicial.

2. Our very official, very public, and cornerstone book of our beliefs states "he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

So even the possible criticisms he could have simply implied without saying are completely unwarranted.

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Tornogal,

If I fortold that tomorrow we'll all have air to breath, it would be no different. Joseph Smith may have actually seen the future and you nor I can prove or disprove it. But comparing him to a con man is even more logically fallacious by its implication than people calling Joseph Smith's statement a prophecy.

A voice of Reason
Salt Lake City, UT

Red Corvette,

This should precede my first comment:

What is inaccurate?

1. He accused Joseph Smith, Romney and the Church of being racist, and Romney of believing himself racially superior.

2. He accused the Church of changing policy for political convenience.

3. He stated blacks couldn't be members- because "in Heaven they turned from God."

4. He accused Joseph Smith of being a "lying and fraudulent criminal"

5. He accused Joseph Smith and the church of supporting slavery.

6. He stated that Pat Buchanan didn't believe in anything Romney does.

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Logically disproved:

1. Others' mentality are all subjective and not provable- And if the 'proof' is our doctrines or policies, refer to my previous comment.

2. Again, subjective.

3. Membership isn't the same as holding the priesthood, being saved, etc. Those who turned from God didn't even come to Earth by our doctrines.

4. Joseph Smith's was never convicted, nor proven a liar.

5. With what evidence? D&C 134:12 and nearly the entire Book of Mormon disprove this.

6. Subjective.

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Ironically his statements prove himself more of a "fraudulent liar" than any historical evidence regarding Joseph Smith.

The truth withstands every last criticism.

ADN
Weiser, ID

Before you can dismiss the prophet Joseph Smith as a prophet you must acount for many things, one of them is the quality of people who believe that he is a prophet and that have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. The LDS poeple, generally speaking, are quality people who work hard, try to as honest as they can, have high standards and morals, family values, service oriented and religious. By thier fruits ye shall know them can also be applied to the type of people who follow.

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

Critics of Joseph aren't consistent at all in their criticisms, and that is more revealing than their complaints. "Joseph had more than one wife! The Church can't be true!" ignoring that David, Solomon, etc., had many more than Joseph. Do they therefore reject the Old Testament? No, that criteria applies only to Joseph. "Joseph did treasure hunting before becoming a Prophet! Proof that the BoM was made up!" Right, and the Apostle Paul killed Christians before becoming an Apostle. Do they therefore reject the New Testament? No; again, that criteria applies only to Joseph. "Joseph shot 3 men in Carthage jail! Proof that he wasn't a Prophet!" Oh, good grief. Moses and Joshua ordered the deaths of and killed thousands of men, women and children. Shall we write-off monotheism? No, not at all: only Joseph is expected to have forsaken self-defense. And on and on it goes.

God dealt with sins committed by Prophets like Moses, David, Solomon, etc. Please notice that that means Prophets do sin, and God acts accordingly. If a Prophet can be perfect, then Christ's Atonement was for naught.

Ignore critics until they apply their objections equally.

non believer
PARK CITY, UT

In 1961, Hugh Nibley authored a book entitled The Mythmakers, in which he ventured to boldly debunk assertions that Joseph Smith had committed, or had been arrested for, the crime of "glass-looking." Nibley went so far as to declare that if, in fact, Smith was actually proven guilty of such nefarious activity, it would constitute the most damning blow that could be imagined to Smith's claim of divine prophetship.

Well guess what, in 1971 these records were discovered and it is fact that Joseph Smith was found guilty of being a glass looker 4 years before the golden plates were supposedly given to him by the Angel........ He also failed to tell Emma his first wife that he had married another woman......

The man was a liar and a convicted con-artist! So as far as being considered a Prophet? That is a far reach!

zoar63
Mesa, AZ

Joseph Smith was a liar, a con men and whatever else his detractors say about him. I find that amazing seeing that Jesus Christ, the source of Christianity was accused of the same by the religious officials of his day. He was also tried and executed by the Roman government. Later on there was a Roman physician by the name of Celsus who published unflattering writings about Christ and Christianity that remarkably mirror what today is being written about Joseph Smith and Latter-day Saints. Some of them being He ran with a group of men who were deceivers, His miracles were nothing more than tricks that he learned while he was in Egypt. He was the son of a roman soldier and Christianity was a religion that only women children and fools embraced. He even went as far as to say the reason Jesus was killed was because he had so many wives

Moontan
Roanoke, VA

That should read "...sins committed by Prophets and Kings He anointed like..."

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: Moontan, Ignore critics until they apply their objections equally. True, you should test all things including false prophecy.
That seer… his name shall be called Joseph(Smith), and it shall be after the name of his father. ( Genesis 50:33 JST)? JS, prophecy about himself.

A Marvelous work and wonder.((Isaiah 29:14 JST)But the book(BoM) shall be delivered unto a man(JS).verse 16…by the power of Christ…verse 17,three witnesses, verse 19,…many witnesses as seemeth good. Both prophecies NOT found in Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible) ,Dead Sea(Isaiah) Scrolls.

Re: zoar63, He even went as far as to say the reason Jesus was killed was because he had so many wives.
Jedediah M. Grant, A belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons”. (JoD v.1 p 346)

Tornogal
LITTLE ROCK, AR

Voice of Reason: "If I fortold that tomorrow we'll all have air to breath, it would be no different. Joseph Smith may have actually seen the future and you nor I can prove or disprove it. But comparing him to a con man is even more logically fallacious by its implication than people calling Joseph Smith's statement a prophecy."

Then by your reasoning, the burden is on anyone to prove anyone who foretells even the most mundane truths is NOT a prophet. By that standard, anyone who guesses the sun will rise tomorrow is a prophet. I think that is absurd.n I would be very interested in reading even one complete prophecy Joseph Smith rendered.

And to many, Joseph Smith WAS a con man. See: Glass-looking, Kirtland Safety Society, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham, Fanny Alger, among others.

And ADN: You seem to argue that since many Latter-day Saints are good people, someone they declare a prophet have been one. Let me submit that there are millions (billions?) of good, honest, hard working people who are every bit as good, honest, and hard working as Mormons. That does not make their spiritual leader a prophet.

LValfre
CHICAGO, IL

Wow everyone jumped on here about Joseph Smith and I've tried to comment three times and keep getting denied ....

Every rationalization I hear on this thread for LDS and JS being the truth just sounds desperate and irrational to me. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

Getting it Right
Sunnyvale, CA

Articles of Faith #9,
"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

Everything will be revealed in God's due time...

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@A voice of reason
"A few historically held the priesthood before, it just wasn't standard policy. Critics may not like it, but this fact disproves claims that the church was racist solely because of the policy. "

Actually I think that would make the policy more likely to be racist in origin because the policy had to be instituted by Brigham Young and wasn't a pre-existing condition when the church was restored by Joseph Smith.

@ADN
"one of them is the quality of people who believe that he is a prophet and that have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. "

Decent people (of which I am well aware of plenty in the LDS church) can be wrong, false things can still be inspirational and a source of good, and I'm pretty sure you believe there are decent, quality people of other faiths.

EightOhOne
St. George, UT

@ ADN

is hard work, honesty, high morals, and family values only exclusive to the lds??? same can be said about the amish, or any other religious group for that matter.

@ zoar63

here we go with the christ/joseph comparisons. i mean, i understand joseph is held in high regard in the church (praise to the man, right?), and that even jesus himself wasn't able to keep together the church like joseph could, but wow!!!!!!!!!!

RG
Buena Vista, VA

I am very impressed by the prophecies of Joseph Smith regarding himself, that his name should be known all over the world. And I am disappointed that people can be so dense as to find no meaning in this. At the time he said this, it was most unlikely. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon prophecies about itself too, that it will go to the world, which it has. That seemed at one time most unlikely as well. The posting of many who think it is just a coincidence (or it is what any con man would say) just shows how blind people can be. If the Kirtland bank was just a scam, why did JS lose more money than just about anyone else? How many con men die for their beliefs?

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