@Mountain man:"Its just that all the liberals I know are atheists and
seem to have the need to attack religious people as being naive or duped."
If they feel a need to attack anyone from another culture as being naive
or duped, how liberal is that? Tolerance for other viewpoints is part of being
In Utah, religion is truly an all-or-nothing propositionHuh? Truly
all-or-nothing means only two categories. It should be titled "close to
all-or-nothing". The 15% are being disregarded in order to make a
A problem I have encountered with surveys as well as having a common
understanding of definations is the question of truthfulness of answers. Some people I know have given the expected answers rather than the
"truth". Since a person regularly goes to church, he may reply that yes
he always prays. Has anyone else obsererved situations like this?
Have you ever given an expected answer which is not completely true?
I agree with the sentiment that Utah's polarity is because the LDS religion
expects more of adherents than most and therefore tends to irritate or alienate
people who prefer more moderate religiosity. "It's either true or it
isn't" is more emphasized among Mormons than other religions. This has
side effects, but it's probably necessary for a minority religion to
preserve it's distinctness.Truthseeker, I agree there's
been increasing correlation since the 70s, spurred by more emphasis on
expansion. It's difficult to transplant all aspects of a religion so there
tends to be more emphasis and repetition of the basics. I haven't seen Coke
become a bigger issue though, I would suggest the opposite. I also feel like
leaders are still accessible; not everyone knows a 70 anymore but anyone can
write letters and leaders travel more than ever. Local leaders also communicate
more easily now.Finally, DesNews isn't
"ultra-conservative". The market dictates that it differentiate itself
from the SLTrib, but it's pretty moderate and still left of Utah's
political epicenter. Folks at Fox or National Review, or the Atlantic or WSJ,
would have to look left to find DesNews.
@LDSliberal. What makes you think Christ said anything about moderation in
"all things"? The Christ I know told His followers to "take up your
cross and follow Me", that because some were "lukewarm" (i.e.
moderate) in their faith, He would "spew them out of [his] mouth". He
does not want moderate followers; He wants disciples who are willing to give up
everything for Him, so that He can give them all that He has. We are not
commanded to be moderate in our lives, but fully committed, fully faithful,
fully engaged in His work. We are to give our all, not just the parts we feel
like giving, and in return, He gives us the opportunity to be like Him--kings
and queens, priests and priestesses, rulers over thrones, dominions and powers.
You can't get that by being "moderate". It's not "all or
nothing at all", but "you reap what you sow"; you get back exactly
in proportion to what you have worked for.
I consider myself spiritual, but not religious. I see religion as one person or
one group's view on God or a higher power that many follow. You can still
be spiritual, believe in a higher power (God), your definition and at the same
time, not be religious. Once I realized that the LDS church was
indeed, no different than other religions in their claim for divinity, I was
devastated and quite upset and sad - all at once! I invested nearly 40 years in
this self-proclaimed, only true church on the face of the earth. I consider
myself to be attached to no religion and will be just fine with my own view on
God without having some man or group tell me what is "true."
@Cats"It's so sad how they try to justify their decison NOT to
endure to the end."Most of the time people leave it's
because they don't believe in it or believe something else more which
isn't a foreign concept because any convert to the LDS church was in that
same position and I have a feeling you consider their decision to not
"endure to the end" in their old church perfectly okay.So you know, you
can criticize me for leaving the LDS church if you want, but I left because I
didn't believe in the Book of Mormon or the idea that Joseph Smith was a
prophet, so if you want to go after me, you have to go after converts TO the LDS
church too. That is... assuming you're consistnt.
Mountainman: Jesus was a liberal.
Doesn't this just show that religion and religiosity is divisive, and the
more religious you consider yourself to be, the more divisive you likely are?Why is that a good thing?
Being religious and being spiritual are NOT synonymous.
The religiosity of Utah isn't just about Mormons. Sure, they inspire it,
because Mormonism is a religion that sticks out--it isn't intended to be
swept aside, because of the significant truths that Mormons must accept in order
to practice their religion. One biggie: That God still talks with people today,
to individuals and to prophets. This inspires everyone around them. This study,
It's about all religions in the state. People here are more religious,
because religion matters to the people here. I lived in Italy for two years,
there were thousands of amazing churches completely empty. They would do almost
anything to instill the religious ferver that Utah enjoys. In Utah, the
Catholics are more catholic, the Baptists more baptists, and the Mormons more
mormon. And that's a great thing.
TRUTHSEEKER from "San Louie" @ 3:39 pm said:"It is a farce
that ... ultra-conservative Deseret News ... uses most of its page space
endorsing conservative candidates, issues, religion and opinions." Dude: "HELLOoooo!"
It's amazing how many people insert their own emotional problems into their
definition of "religious" and their feelings about religion. It's
so sad how they try to justify their decison NOT to endure to the end.
As I understand the article, it only points out that religion plays a major part
in the life of many people in Utah. As to why that is, maybe it would be correct
to state that it is because a large percentage of Utahns are LDS, and that the
LDS church is a church requiring a higher degree of participation that churches
where people are hired to run services, administer programs etc. In Europe we
have small wards, so membership is a very active matter. I've reaped so
many benefits of being called to do things I haven't previously done - I
know I can learn things I haven't previously known, which gives me
confidence in my professional life when a new challenge or technique comes
along. I do understand, though, that sometimes it might seem like an
all-or-nothing proposition, and that if you're not up to "all" you
might choose "nothing". That is not a good situation, but it isn't
a reason to put the bar at "nothing" or "next to nothing" for
Where I live there are lots of different religions and they have something good
to offer. I being Lds and the only one at work have had interesting questions
asked of me. My coworker said the Lds church has different beliefs, do you
accept them all and I said yes. Shes Baptist but I always find her refreshing to
talk to. Nebraska only made it average but there are lots of ppl that go to
So you either buy the entire package, or you're out. No room to ponder or
dissent. It's polarised, like american politics these days.
40% of all Americans are very religious and attend church almost every week.Right-On America, this makes me very happy.
@Mountanman"This is really going to irritate liberals!"Why? I'm a liberal Christian. The idea of people going to church
certainly doesn't bother me."I work with liberals who
believe in Charles Darwin and Al Gore, not Jesus!"I believe in
Jesus, think evolution has certainly been a process that occurs (yes, even
humans evolved), and there's quite convincing evidence that humans are
having an influence on the climate. You make it sound like these things are
mutually exclusive.@Navajo Hogan"That is the way it was
with myself, and all the other exMormons I know."Guess I have to
break that stereotype too since I'm exmormon but certainly still Christian.
This explains why we have so many problems with getting people obey the civil
and human rights of others because they vote only their narrow mindedness and
religion and forget that Church and State are absolutely separate.
@Truthseeker,As a lifelong member it seems like you've
uncovered a lot of the truth you seek.
Lvalfre, how does one be a liberal conservative? I'm not being critical
I'm genuinly curious.
Over my lifelong membership in the Church I've seen an ever increasing
rigidity creeping in. In some ways it resembles the Pharisees focus on the
"rules" rather than the gospel. One superficial example is the
ubiquitous white shirts worn by the majority of men on Sundays. Another example
is the idea that Coca-Cola goes against the Word of Wisdom. The extreme
correlation is another example. It is a farce that the Church is politically
neutral considering its ownership of ultra-conservative Deseret News which uses
most of its page space endorsing conservative candidates, issues, religion and
opinions. Aside from its stance on abortion, contraception and
same-sex marriage, the Catholic Church and its members are actually more
moderate than the LDS Church. For example, it views poverty and hunger as a
moral issue that needs to be addressed and recognizes a govt.-church partnership
to accomplish those ends. Many in the LDS church view govt. as antithetical to
that goal. Finally, there seems to be a thicker wall between LDS
members and the top leadership. How can leaders keep in touch with the needs
and issues that arise when nothing from lay members can penetrate "the
I Like the word spiritual more than religious!
How interesting that on an article about how religious people are the first
comment is so judgmental and divisive.Is this a showing of that
supposed religiousness? If it is, I am surprised that so many people would
claim a relationship to it.
Well, when you come to find out the religion you gave your all too is false, you
tend give up any religion entirely.That is the way it was with
myself, and all the other exMormons I know. Hence the all-or-nothing proposition
we have in Utah.
@mounta(i)nman funny I don't see any attacks, maybe some
baiting on your part but no attacks. I am curious just now many
"liberals" hang around Hayden, ID though.
This makes a lot of sense to me. In Utah there's a high percentage that are
religious. The non-religious are many times made up of ex-Mormons. Ex-Mormons
tend to really give up on religion once they realize their church is (in their
opinion) false .... after giving that high a level of time, money, and
commitment to an organization it's hard to fathom doing it with any other
religion again. For some I think it puts bitterness in them towards religion
for the rest of their lives.
"MountanmanHayden, IDIts just that all the liberals I know are
atheists and seem to have the need to attack religious people as being naive or
duped. I work with liberals who believe in Charles Darwin and Al Gore, not
Jesus!"Thanks for pointing that out Mountanman I commend you for
it. Most people on here throw vast generalizations about liberals, left
wingers, right wingers, atheists, etc. It's nice to see you say that the
liberals "YOU KNOW" are like this as opposed to claiming they all are.
I'm sick of being called a left winging, liberal atheist. I'm a
liberal, and probably atheist at this point, but very conservative. VERY
conservative. I'm also not a democrat (WOW!). So the stereotypes and
generalizations don't hold water.Nice word choice .... LOVE IT!
I wonder how the Gallup people quantified "Religiosity" or what they
think constitutes being "religious"?I don't think being
religious means the same thing to all people. To some it just means having
something you believe in, or going to church. That's not my definition.I don't think anybody should take great pride in their religiosity.
Pride is antithesis of what Christ taught. Like the Ace-of-base
"Ravine" song teaches... "Have you heard what she learned? Like
humility - you only win when you lose".So if we're going to
get in a boasting match about who's more religious... remember, you only
win that contest if you lose.
Its just that all the liberals I know are atheists and seem to have the need to
attack religious people as being naive or duped. I work with liberals who
believe in Charles Darwin and Al Gore, not Jesus!
I see a lot of these type of studies, and a lot of it is based on what criteria
you choose to measure. For example, what constitutes an "active member"
of the LDS Church? Is attending Church at Christmas and Easter enough? How
about one meeting a month, is that enough? Do you need to have a Church job and
a Temple Recommend? The totals will shift dramatically depending on what you
choose to measure.
MountanmanHayden, IDThis is really going to irritate liberals!=============== How is that?I’m Liberal, and Very
Religious.But in all Honesty, you really should make a fair
comparison – Most of the Muslim World is “Very
Religious”, and also happens to be the least Free. Is that the
kind of America you want? Utah-liban? or Hayden [Aryan Nation], Idaho?BTW - The Lord says there should be Moderation is all things – This article clearly points out that once again, Utah is Extremist... and the
Brethren keep warning against ALL facets of Extremism.
@Lundyman, I agree with your thesis. At least in Southern California. There is
continuing pressure to be not be a nominal saint but rather a devout member.
That is to be a full tithe payer and go to the Temple several times a week, even
if one has to take vacation days to do so. My current bishop had me even attend
a Temple preparation class. The class instructor, a former bishop, talked about
the blessings one recieves from Temple Worship but wouldn't say what they
were. Towards the end of the class it was "this is what the Lord requires of
you". Another interesting issue are the classes on Provident
living, where on the handouts, the budget sheets say we are supposed to pay our
tithing first thing. I had the temerity to ask if we should not pay our temporal
bills if we are short. The quorem president was not pleased with my question.
When some of us are supporting two households it becomes an important issue. and
it is embarassing to have to explain oneself in front of the quorem.
Those are interesting points, yankees27. I grew up attending the LDS church, and
although I am no longer a member I have many relatives and friends who are LDS.
I very occasionally attend meetings for missionary homecomings or baby
blessings, and when you look around a good chunk of the audience is usually
asleep or doing other things like playing a game with a child or fiddling with a
phone. I've heard plenty of jokes about people falling asleep on the stand
or sitting in such a way to try to hide sleeping. If it doesn't interest
you and you're not truly participating in the meeting, why bother?
I don't know about anyone else, but in my little part of the world, if you
aren't going to church every Sunday you aren't considered
"Religious" at all. I'm a part timer, actually I would make a
better Catholic since I only attend a couple times a year, like Easter and
Christmas, but most in the ward consider me a non-member because I'm not
there every week. I actually asked for a calling, I told the Bishop I would love
to be the Homeland Security Director for our ward, he said he had not heard of
that calling. I told him I would love to stay home on Sundays and watch out for
the members houses while they are away. He didn't accept. Oh well, at least
I'm trying. I've never understood why some think that attendance every
Sunday makes you a better person than those that make their own choice whether
to attend or not. I'm constantly hearing friends or family state they
don't like church, when I ask why they go, they say because they "have
to" That is pretty sad that anyone feels that way.
To Mountanman: I don't think you know many liberals. I personally
don't know a single liberal who objects to anyone else being religious. I
even know many religious liberals.
The reason for this is the culture and teachings of the LDS church. After 29
years of church membership, I can well verify that church practices STRONGLY
discourage being "semi-religious." It's either total dedication or
you aren't living up to the expectations of the Lord. I think this is good,
in that it strengthens the Church, but the downside is feelings of personal
disappointment suffered by individuals and the weight of persistent social
My favorite part of this is that whoever made the Gallup Report stated that the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was "the most religious group in
America today."I don't know that studies trying to prove
'who is more religious' won't come off as boasting to some- but
if it shows to anyone that we are genuine believers to some extent, then I would
argue that some good does come out of these studies. There are some religious
trying to only make money, some who don't even know what they believe, and
so on. I'm not saying the LDS Church is exclusively the only one made up of
a decent set of people. But that genuine certainly would describe the LDS
Church. One can find good people in many faiths without doubt. But if looking at
the LDS Church, anyone will find a true 'devoutness' among the general
membership that certainly would do more to help someone understand the LDS
Church, rather than misunderstand as the general masses often do.
Dear Utah:Don't get cocky about how religious you are!(-;But seriously, the religion I share in common with so many
Utahns has blessed my life. It's one of the few things I feel I can
totally depend on in these crazy times.
@mounta(i)nman why? there is nothing shocking about this. the only thing
even remotely shocking is that slightly more people did not claim to be very
This is really going to irritate liberals!