Published: Friday, Feb. 17 2012 6:00 p.m. MST
[Mormons say, "No, salvation is open to all people.' In that sense,
Mormonism is the most nonexclusive religion in the Christian world.")]There are plenty of christian denominations like the United Methodist
church that don't think it matters if you're of a different denomination. That's
how I inherited my tendency to just go to whatever church service I feel like
The first point of new family search is to include the names of your family. I
entered the name of my living great-grandmother in there so that I could connect
my further back decesed ancestors to me. Just putting a name in that database
does not indicate intentions to submit it for temple work.
Secondly, I think it would help if people did not start with the assumption of
maliciousness. The people involved here truly were trying to do good. They
were clearly also acting unwise, but if people tried to understand the actions
of others instead of shouting "I am outraged" there would be more good
feelings. Some people spend time talking about being civil, but seem only to be
able to respond with anger.
The Church has done nothing to Wiesel. It is one individual somewhere who did
it. He of all people should realize that it is wrong to attack a whole group
for the actions of one person. The Church did not create the database. To act
like the contents of a databse are the fault of the Church is just to ignore
reality. Wiesel is also showing his unwillingness to even try to
interact with other religious traditions on their own terms. Jews might respond
to the advice of well placed notables in their community with no religious
authority, but that is not how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
While I am very glad the church is sympathetic to the wishes of the jews in this
matter, I am surprised at the demanding attitudes of many towards the church. At
the end of the day, the church can do as they wish and do baptisms for the dead
for whomever they want. Not many people would be as accommodating as church
leaders in similar circumstances. Seems the jews should be grateful for every
jew baptism the church doesn't do instead of demanding an apology in anger for
every one that accidentally slips through
I am not sure they need to explain but evaluate the entire process -- not only
for Jews but Christians as well. I personally (and billion) who are not mormons
to not appreciate there ancestors or family members undergoing this process.
mightymite,The Church does this because we believe God wants us to.
Should we fear man more than God? Also, we are supposed to only do work for our
own ancestors. Yes, they are also ancestors to non-LDS but that doesn't take
away our rights.
This has been a highly sensitive issue with the Jewish community for awhile.
So, Wiesel's reaction needs to be viewed in light of this. It's not an isolated
incident. They view it as just more of the same. Sure, the Church
can do whatever it wants and ignore the criticism. But that's not likely to
facilitate the church's mission to convert people to Mormonism. Poor Romney:"Im running for office, for Petes sake,"
alt134,I am sure there are many Christian faiths that believe you just
have to accept Jesus as the Savior. However, most of those churches, if not
all, believe that if you don't, while here on earth, well, then that is it.
What about those the never have heard of Jesus Christ? Some denominations
believe that God is merciful and will just let them into Heaven while others
believe that cannot happen.To those that believe they will be just be let
into heaven I have asked where that doctrine comes from? The answer has been,
"God is merciful". Even Jesus Christ was baptized. God has provided
a way, through baptism for the dead, for those that never had the opportunity,
for whatever reason, to accept this ordinance. That covers it from those that
believe "God is merciful", to those that believe it cannot not happen,
and everything in between.
'Responding to and explaining LDS baptisms for the dead' - Title
No. I don't want it 'explained' to me. I want
baptism's for people who did not give their CONSENT to them, to stop. Everyone is asking 'what's the big deal'? This is not a counter
point. We have this same 'explanation' from the LDS church, every
few years. About who 'whoops! We baptized ANOTHER non-believer against their
wishes. My bad!' To be blunt, it is INVASIVE and OFFENSIVE to have a
faith 'baptize' you...against your wishes and the wishes of their family. And yet, it keeps happening. Stop. You are not
welcome to invade the memory of a person's faith.
RE: SammyBYour wrong.... I am not exactly sure where the mormon
church thinks they have the right to invade another per persons faith or lack of
faith through this ritual but I can tell you Christian and non-Christian faiths
alike do not subscribe to this ritual and it is highly offensive - and in some
cases taboo. What I am sure of is that the mormon church is not God's restored
church (as you claim) and it's teachings are false... And before you ask, yes I
have prayed upon it and God has led me to a Christian faith with valid
I'm outraged that my Dad was part of the 3rd Army that risked their lives for
three and half years and liberated people that have no tolerance for religious
freedom. Some people have to be outraged at something all the time, one of which
cut and pastes others thoughts multiple times on every article.
@sbc"What about those the never have heard of Jesus Christ?"Many christians, and large chunks of many denominations that don't
personally express this view, believe that God will sort things out in some fair
manner. Here's how you can tell they believe this: ever notice how so few
Christians proselytize? If they really thought that it was so necessary to
accept Christ they'd probably be trying a little harder on that front. Instead
you get people like me who really don't care what religion anyone belongs to.
" God has provided a way, through baptism for the dead"You believe that, but most including myself disagree with that
interpretation of scripture. Personally, I do believe something close to the LDS
view that everyone will have fair opportunity to accept the truth before final
judgment (my beliefs are very much a mix of many denominations and since I don't
believe there is a "one true church"... I'm okay with that). I just
believe that being baptized in spirit in the afterlife would be valid.
'I'm outraged that my Dad was part of the 3rd Army that risked their lives for
three and half years and liberated people that have no tolerance for religious
freedom.' - ute alumni | 10:43 p.m. Feb. 17, 2012 And yet, you post
on a newspaper... owned by a church. To rally against,
birth control for Catholic women... that over 80%, already use birth
control. Your religion stops at you. And should not be
FORCED, onto people, who never factually asked you for it.
One of my children was born in a Catholic hospital. I wouldn't be surprised if,
seeing that the mother was LDS, a caring priest didn't sprinkle my child to save
his soul. If so, I think it was an act of kindness. There is no arrogance, no
rancor, no animus, from those who quietly labor to b bring others to God -- here
or hereafter. If my Catholic neighbor wishes to light a candle and pray for my
soul when I am gone, I will be grateful for the kindness. The same goes for my
neighbor of any faith.
It's amazing how so many people are "outraged" on these boards. To one guy, even, "billion" of people are outraged. Really?
"What I am sure of is that the mormon church is not God's
restored church (as you claim) and it's teachings are false... And before you
ask, yes I have prayed upon it and God has led me to a Christian faith with
valid teachings...."MightyMitePerhaps you could share
what the name of this "faith" is? You see, it's easy to tear up
someone elses' beliefs, it's something entirely different to defend your own. By
staying generic, you remain above the fray, able to jab at Mormon beliefs while
not mentioning specifics of your own. I'm sure it's all valid teachings.===="To be blunt, it is INVASIVE and OFFENSIVE to have a
faith 'baptize' you...against your wishes and the wishes of their
family."PaganGet over your rage. How do you know it's
against the wishes of the individual? They are dead (well, except Elie of
course). There's a lot of things that people do/lifestyles that I find highly
offensive, and there are many things I'd rather you not explain to me, Pagan.
But here we are.It's nice to be American. When people are outraged
at something they are not at all involved in, I can roll my eyes and say
intolerance mounts on all sides. ALL SIDES. I spend much of my younger life in
a Jewish home, my best friend was and still is Jewish. I have found as I went to
synagogue with him that I was not really welcomed by most as I was a christian
and what was I doing in their temple? I quit going. SO did he, well he changed
Jewish faiths, he went to a much more liberal group( reformed Jews) Mr. Weisel
seems to feel that anything said or done that does not agree with his view is
taboo. Yes there is a lot of anti Jewish sentiment, also anti LDS Sentiment.
All you have to do is read posts here and on the other paper to see it. Lighten
up people. This isn't like grabbing you and dunking you in the water. We are told to only do the direct line of our ancestors. The person who
did this was wrong. But to get your panties in a tight wad is silly. YES SILLY
and that is with full compassion and understanding that I say that. SILLY
A few years back while I was working at the FHL, in town that week was the
National Jewish Geneaogical Society. They were holding their annual convention
here in SLC. I spent a day working side by side with a Jewish Lady from NYC. She
was using the great resources available to one and all. And just how do you
think the LDS Church aquired these priceless records that they were now
utilizing?Elie Weisel is Grandstanding, and it's very unfortuante.
He is politicizing this current event.His political leanings are well
known. The Church has apologized for a rogue charachter. These things can
happen, but that is not good enough for him. However, Mr. Weisel needs to
understand, LDS' have a right to their Religion just as he does. And they have a
right to have their hearts turned to their own ancestors. Being familiar with
Malachi, he might better understand this concept.In this particular
case, there were simply names added to the Family Search database. That's all.
And quite frankly, anyone with access to the data base can add names. I do it
just about every day, as we follow and build my wife's Italian Family tree.Here is what people need to understand. There are clearly
published protocols as to how to govern yourself while accessing Family
Search.1-You are only to do work on your own family trees. Even the
Jewish organizations have agreed that if a Jewish name is in your famly line,
you can add those names to the database.2-There is the 95 year rule.
Meaning, that if a person is not a direct ancestor, then permission must
be obtained by a direct family relative before adding that deceased persons
name. There are to be NO Living persons added to the database unless submiting
your own family's names.3-Famous persons are not to be added at all,
unless they are a direct descendant.People with sincere hearts
understand these rules. Others have other motives for creating these
dust-ups.I maintain that there are indeed people with nefarious
intent, who purposefully add names, ie Hitler, Mussolini, Ted Bundy etc.. in
order to intentionally embarass the Church. There are well known folks who just
happen to always find such names and then immediately report such infractions to
the National Media.Really? Just a Coincidence? Or are these
sustained and carefully crafted planned assaults?It's time someone
in the Media investigates this aspect of the story.
Nice article! Thank you.Wow! What a lot of wresting of motives
over an expression of love and honor of oneâs neighbors that stretches
beyond the mortal realm! Those who criticize speak evil of things they do not
know.Christians accept baptism as a public expression, a beginning
and end of their commitment to take upon oneself the name of God, and a sacred
ceremony through which one opens a channel to the heart to receive Godâs
grace. Even God, as the mortal Jesus, submitted to this public expression.
Baptism for the dead was not invented by Mormons, as the Bible
records in 1 Corinthians 15:29, as well as many other fragments from the ancient
records. Mormonâs see the symbolism of baptism antedating Jesus in the
molten sea and the lavers of ancient Israel.Mormons offer baptism to
those who never had a chance for it because of geography and tradition. It is
an expression of invitation and inclusion. We do it because we think they are
righteous, not because we think they are stuck in hell. The act itself says
that our God wants all to inherit His kingdom. If we are guilty of anything with
respect to the holocaust victims, we are guilty of honoring them for their
suffering. They are the souls under the alter of God in heaven of those who
were slain for being chosen to bear the word of God to the world (Rev 6:9).Baptism for the dead is done largely by teenagers who selflessly spend
half a day every few months, usually on Saturdays, to go to the temple and do
for others what they cherish having done for themselves. We do it because we
love God and love our neighbor. We say the names of those who have passed on
with reverence and love. In serving these through sacred and reverent ceremony,
we learn to connect better with the living through selfless service. At times,
we think we can feel their gratitude, and their joy brings tears to our eyes.Rather than condemning Mormons for being Godâs instruments to
bring His greatest gift to all, you, whose religions make no such provision,
should feel guilty for leaving the unlucky dead behind. Jews have
been maligned and unfairly persecuted. Our Book of Mormon acknowledges this and
reprimands all who reverence the Bible for this persecution (2 Nephi 29:4).
Those upset with Mormons should pause to consider that the persons who entered
the names may have been trying to bring condemnation on the Mormon Church, and
were not acting according to Church policy. If persecution is bad, it is bad
when applied to any people, not just the Jews.
For those who are in disagreement about his issue I have some suggetions that my
help you.#1: If, when you die and someone has you baptised by proxy
and you don't agree with it, just tell the Lord, "no thanks".. End of
issue.#2:Disagree if you will but understand that Mormons are the only
Christian religion that places no limit on the Lord's grace, even for people who
have passed on. We each get to decide how much grace we will accept, the Lord
has never limited His offering. That's why we do baptisms for the dead, for
those who may choose to accept an unlimited grace of Christ. Its an act of
service and grace. Again, if you object or don't want the offer, that's every
person's choice.#3: Of all God's children who have lived on this earth, a
relativily small percentage have even heard of Jesus Christ. Therefore baptism
for them, who have passed on is a beautiful act of Christs grace extended beyone
the grave for billions of these people, if they accept the Lord's grace.#4:It is a beautiful act of faith and grace, even if you don't agree with it,
that's everyone's choice.
The photo that accompanies this article, of the Logan Temple baptismal font,
actually shows the font in the temple before its renovation in the 1970s. The
current font looks different.
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