MaibrainaWow, I have found a couple of blogs using these same
arguments to justify illegal immigration. This could be dangerous if people
start believing these as prophecy and not as a persons personal view or
interpretation. New Jerusalem is not going to be built in Utah. Therefore it
does not justify illegal immigration to this state. (It doesn't happen until the
second coming) You missed the quote saying that God will lift them
up. Illegal immigration has nothing to do with it. I would suggest
talking to a bishop or Church leader and not rely on the Internet.
RRB and KJayDS thanks for the comments. It's great to talk about this stuff
with people who have read the book. I suppose I should have given some
references. Let me make an observation and then give a few references.
Observation: On the page of explanation given by Mormon, he says the book is
written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. It's also
written to Jew and Gentile, but the Lamanites were given first mention. It's an
important note that the primary recipient is the Lamanite of the latter days.
Scriptures: 3 Nephi 16: 12-16; 20: 22; 21: 6,12, and 24 (24 talks about how the
Gentile will assist the Lamanite); 3 Nephi 29: 1; 30: 1-2; Ether 13: 6,8, and
10. When I read these scriptures it sounds like the land was given to the
Lamanites and that after they've been scattered they will get it back. In some
of these scriptures it says if the Gentiles don't repent the Lamanites are going
to take it back by force (for ex: ..."as a lion goeth thru and there is
none to deliver."). I suppose we can talk aobut the DNA and other
arguments; I just wanted to post a few references on the prophecy.
MailbrainaI have read the Book of Mormon several time. I read it at least
once a year.In all the times I have read it, I do not remember any
prophecy like what you are speaking of. Please reference this prophecy so that
myself and others who have also apparently missed it, can look it up.Thank
MaibrainaI think your prophecy is a little off. I think you are referring
to the Lamanites blossoming as a people,and helping build Zion. I think Zion is
to be built in Missouri. And I won't get into the Native American issue (dna
testing), but they are a small group, not all of the native Americans, or
Hispanics with Native blood. No one really knows who they are. It
will happen in Gods time, not when business wants cheap disposable labor.
I know a lot of people won't want to hear this for many reasons, but the fact
that the native american - and that includes those south of the
"border" - is going to reclaim this land as his own is one of the many
prophecies in the Book of Mormon. Whether or not you believe in this prophecy
isn't the issue because it's happening before our eyes. I don't think any law,
wall, armed patrol, or anything else is going to stop the "illegals"
from taking this land back.....but we have to try.
Several days ago I came across an interesting article, based on a study done by
the Deseret News (August 4 1998). It was about how Americans working in
agriculture are kept in perpetual poverty by illegal aliens depressing their
wages. It told how entire families were trapped in this perpetual poverty with
no way out until the laws were enforced. It was a well written piece of
literature. As we are well aware, instead of restricting illegal
immigration, families were driven from the occupation they and their forefather
knew. Now housekeeping, construction, etc. are all facing this same inability to
support their family. Will they be driven into perpetual poverty also?13 years later we see nothing from the media but open the borders, we don't
care about Americans. There is no long term intent to stop illegal immigration
in their eyes anymore.And through their article we find out why
Americans don't work in agriculture anymore. Where are the writers for the
Deseret news 13 years ago?
Come to the country legally and you will not have to worry about producing the
documentation to prove you are a legal citizen.
Mr. Bean, "if we don't stem immigration, especially illegal
immigration, you won't recognize your country any longer."Recognize what exactly? The skin color of this country? The Language?
Honestly, I don't like the Spanish language much for my reasons. But if 9 of my
10 neighbors spoke it I wouldn't care. If that is a 'concern' for someone, I
would argue their moral value in incompatible with the principle of freedom and
liberty."Punishment can't be just a gentle slap on the
wrist". For who? I see Americans get "gentle slaps" all the time.
A non-citizen here illegally certainly needs addressing to satisfy justice, but
I have proven this point- that 'while other options exist to satisfy justice,
automatic deportation is not the only lawful option available and therefore is
not automatically the most just, most appropriate, and most 'promoting of
freedom' option available (as I believe the intent of our country should be).
This logical proof (that multiple options exist) DEMANDS for logic to be sound,
that others provide reason why 'deportation' is the logical choice. Furthermore,
we have the option to vote on what we do. And while I don't vote for deportation
but for documentation and deporting those unwilling, then I provide an option
that satisfies justice and you and everyone else have no claim against me or my
beliefs.AmPatriot,"First of all immigration is not
a right, its a privilege... All these advocates, lawyers, Supreme Court, are way
off base. Immigration is not a constitutional right or law"You
are right. Freedom IS in fact a right. My principle is extending this to all who
agree to our laws. Some have come here without that binding agreement.
Documenting and making those who agree to be citizens (while paying a fine or
'earning' their freedom by some form of legal retribution) and deporting those
who refuse. By doing this, we preserve law, and extend what IS a right to
others. This is peaceful, friendly, charitable, and moral upright. While
immigration is not a right, our helping others in need IS a duty on our heads.
If you don't believe that, then you are in conflict of the help you have
received through your life as we all have. We owe a debt to our military,
servicemen, and others. We also owe our debt to those to settled this country
with an open-door policy.Law requires justice. Moral law requires
our duty to our fellow man. We all know this. Those arguing against it know it.
Following these true principles of freedom will preserve ours. If we abandon
them, we most certainly will not and can not remain free.
Or, as Adlai used to say, ..."until hell freezes over".
First of all immigration is not a right, its a privilege afford foreign
nationals to enter this country with the permission of the federal government.
All these advocates, lawyers, Supreme Court, are way off base. Immigration is
not a constitutional right or law, and each state has the authority to set and
make laws to obey and enforce federal laws just as they do to get federal funds
and grants. Since illegal aliens and even visas are unconstitutional
then they are the invaders and every american has the 'right and duty' to take
up arms against these illegal aliens occupying this country as decreed in the
rights of sovereignty of this nation. There are also sovereignty
laws governing the behavior of foreign nationals in this country, illegally
demonstrating and taking up arms threatening this nations government and the
people of the United States. We have every right to declare war on Mexico and
their nationals breaching our borders. Occupation does not grant any rights, how
ever it is cause and justification for war against Mexico, again.
A voice of Reason:"I'm only concerned for protecting family and
freedom for everyone, not just those born on one side of a fence."I guarantee you, that if we don't stem immigration, especially illegal
immigration, you won't recognize your country any longer.And how do
you stem immigration, especially illegal immigration? You have to get tough.
Punishment can't be just a gentle slap on the wrist lest countless
millions will see our lack of resolve and take it as an invitation. Getting
tough means deporting, denying free stuff such as education and medical care,
and denying jobs.
It was an illegal immigrant that tried to bomb the Capitol.Enforce
SLARS,"People break up their families when they break the
law."The next time you get a speeding ticket, I might apply
that argument to you in order to split up your family. Justice is inescapable.
This is even an LDS doctrine. Don't forget that we also happen to decide what
punishments are enforced and appropriate. Every last 'send them back argument'
relies on fallacious logic- "because it's illegal, this SPECIFIC punishment
must be enforced". This is a false dichotomy. The fact that alternative
options for legal retribution exist negate that claim with absolute
certainty.Your claim did nothing to address my supporting the
principle of mercy. I claim that we SHOULD be fair in punishment and that
punishments shouldn't be vengeful but with one purpose in mind- human freedom
(which I connect family to)."heading for a life of lies and
lawbreaking" - interesting way to put it. Does that define every illegal
citizen? Are you guiltless of every crime yourself? Do you support ANY form of
compassion and mercy? Or do 'they' have to prove something to you first? A life
of lies and lawbreaking is so very interesting. I guess none of us have ever
lied and us American's never break the law. You're right, it isn't about Mercy
for everyone else. It's about race and we all know it. If it were millions of
Canadians, there would be controversy, but nothing like the hatred existing
now.Look, I support law as much as you do. I support running a VERY
strict border. But we make our laws. I'm only concerned for protecting family
and freedom for everyone, not just those born on one side of a fence. Those who
demand one form of legal retribution don't want democratic law, they want things
their way only. My alternative preserves law and mercy. If you don't accept
that, then how are you not seeking more than simple legal retribution?
A voice of Reason: "They (politicians) seem to invent new ways every day of
'avoiding the issue.' Why? Because our congress is what? Is it too 50/50? Not
enough parties? Not enough reasonable politicians? Not enough 'grass roots'
thinking?"None of the above. It all boils down to votes.
Politicians crave votes. And Hispanics represent a huge and rapidly growing
voting bloc.Sorry Charlie!:"what is mind boggling
is that you and jazz bass man do not seem to understand that maybe your views
are not as mainstream as you seem to think."My views are
mainstream. At least for the present. As more and more illegals pour in from
across the border, my view will begin to be less and less mainstream. Not that
my views are wrong but because 'mainstream' becomes mostly that of ethnics from
south of our border."Just because you have a thought does not
mean it is one true or two what everyone else is thinking."Here's a thought for you that is absolutely the truth... if we continue to do
nothing about immigration and particularly the illegal kind, we will eventually
become a third world nation looking alot like (gasp) Mexico. Go view
'Immigration Gumballs' on YouTube.
It's too bad you didn't get a photo of the red banner from the IWW.
"Agitate - Educate - Organize!"Yikes!Do people realize who
is behind this?
A voice of ReasonPeople break up their families when they break the
law. Whether they are illegal aliens or not. As far as mercy and compassion, if
that was the true reason, then we would be doing everything we can to stop this
from happening again and again. We are doing nothing. It's about
open borders and cheap labor for business. When I see people heading
for a life of lies and lawbreaking counseled and stopped, then I might believe
it's about compassion and mercy. Everyone forgets the LDS church
tells people to come here legally, and government has a right to enforce it's
Obviously when one third of all the foreign-born living in the United States are
here illegal, something is not working. Our immigration laws are
being ignored on a grand scale. Why do you suppose that is? Simply put: Broken
Windows.The Broken Windows Theory came out of New York in the 1980s.
It suggests that if you allow graffiti and broken windows to remain in a
neighborhood, over time the expectation of the residents is that graffiti and
broken windows are acceptable behavior.But if you repair the acts of
vandalism immediately, you raise the community standard.Our lack of
immigration enforcement in the United States has set a low expectation. In
short, illegal aliens are considered an acceptable part of our communities.To make matters worse politicians, media executives, business leaders,
clergy, union bosses and advocacy groups are publicly defending them. A cursory
look at those who are apologists for illegal aliens will reveal that they all
have a vested interest in unlawful presence.The solution is no
acquiescence like HB116, but enforcement of the laws already on the books.
It's fascinating that judges and AG Holder can ignore the FACT that the federal
government has spent billions over the years to enhance the cooperation between
ICE and local authorities. The LESC, 287(g) and Secure Communities programs are
three current programs.Now, why would they go to all that trouble and
expense if it is illegal to assist in enforcing immigration laws?
First, my stance- I view this the same way every statement the LDS Church has
made on this issue- which is fairly moderate in both wanting to preserve lawful
addressing of the issue and protecting families from unnecessary, destructive,
and rash actions. I support legal action to satisfy justice, but mercy in not
exercising swift and indifferent legal retribution.With that being
said, I found the opening of this article rather... ironic?"The
states have a narrow role in assisting the federal government in the enforcement
of federal immigration law" -assisting? In what? Our federal government has
done nothing. How many different ways can you spell it? They seem to invent new
ways every day of "avoiding the issue". Why? Because our congress is
what? Is it too 50/50? Not enough parties? Not enough reasonable politicians?
Not enough 'grass roots' thinking?No, this "problem" and
any other political issue that we never overcome are left unresolved, even left
in a state of hindering ourselves... because of one reason. We are no longer
united in purpose. Democracy decays in favor of the power hungry that is
becoming the majority of our country's citizenry and the leaders they have
chosen to govern them.We used to stand for values, doing the right
thing, helping others. But the more we abandon the family, true principles this
nation was founded on, and commitment to democracy- the farther we fall from a
workable system, a dysfunctional system, and soon to be a system accomplishing
the opposite of what this country was designed to do- protect freedom.
@alfredwhat is mind boggling is that you and jazz bass man do not seem to
understand that maybe your views are not as mainstream as you seem to think.
Just because you have a thought does not mean it is one true or two what
everyone else is thinking.
With all due respect, illegal immigration is a bigger burden than this bill.
And what you're calling an "overreach" is the state of Utah reaching
out to YOU.
It is truly mind boggling as to why elected officials won't listen to the people
who overwhelmingly insist that immigration laws be enforced, including stopping
illegal immigration and the exportation of illegals.
"...federal government's statutory or constitutional powers to regulate
immigration."That the Constitution assigns powers to 'regulate'
immigration to the federal government, is true. It says nothing about
enforcement which is, therefore, relegated to the states because 'all powers not
delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states and to the
people' (Article 2.1.5). The federal government has passed all the laws needed
to provide immigrant regulation. What's left is enforcement which is, according
to the Constitution, delegated to the states.Further, the federal
government lacks the manpower to provide adequate levels of enforcement. ICE
has admitted such. "Karen Tumlin, plaintiff's attorney for the
National Immigration Law Center, said the states have narrow latitude to enforce
federal immigration law."It would help if Ms. Tumlin would
specify exactly what the 'narrow latitude of enforcement' is.
The people are tired of identity fraud. We are tired of the illegal invasion
from mexico, and paying health care, welfare and school for people's anchor
babies who have no legal right to be here. I know the big business lobbyists
(Chamber of commerce, AG Shurtleff's office, Chief Burbank) and the LA
RAZA/Reconquista activists want to keep illegal employment alive in this state,
but we all need to stand up and VOTE OUT any politician who panders more to
illegals and corrupt big business than to their own constituents. The feds refusal to crack down on illegals has given us over 20 MILLION
lawbreakers in this country. Since they refuse to do their job of protecting
this country, then let the states do it. If our state representatives refuse to
do it, then its time the people rose up and reminded them who they really work
for. Vote these bums out.
People are tired of talking.
I might add that the arguments against the law fit the guest worker bills more
This was decided before it went to court.