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Does God run the universe like Bain Capital?

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  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 16, 2012 4:34 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" prove it. I supplied a quote directly from the LDS website that states that the final saving grace is not free as you previously claimed. You may change your story now, but your previous post stated that all were saved by the free gift of grace, which is a lie.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 16, 2012 4:08 p.m.

    RedShirt | 9:46 a.m. Feb. 16, 2012
    USS Enterprise, UT
    To "LDS Liberal" again you are wrong. We are saved by Grace after we have worked.

    ====================

    We are SAVED by Grace.
    period, end of debate.

    I will beg you again,
    Study the Atonement.

    Now - Where we end up, and the types of Judgement we receive may be based on works and conditions, but even those are not all the same - they are tailored specifically for each of our individual tests.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 16, 2012 12:55 p.m.

    "I think it's interesting that the same people who would have NEVER admited to being a "Socialist" a few years ago are now very open about it and now openly claim that Socialsim is the "only hope" to save America"

    2Bits - who are these people you are referring to? I don't know anyone who wants to go to "socialism" as you define it. Where are you getting or reading this information - I want to see this stuff for myself.... because I surely don't see it in the circles I associate with.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 16, 2012 12:35 p.m.

    I think it's interesting that the same people who would have NEVER admited to being a "Socialist" a few years ago are now very open about it and now openly claim that Socialsim is the "only hope" to save America... and seem to expect all other Americans to APPOLOGISE for being Capitalists!

    My how times have changed.

    My son (a big Obama fan) his biggest gripe is that some people say he's a Socialist, or that some of his programs lead to Socialism. But now today on this topic we get these people who seem to expect Capitalists to cower and appologise before them for being Capitalists.

    If people in America now have to appologise for being Capitalists before the Obama supporters.... Where will this most likely end up? Where has it ended for OTHER groups that started to criticise, belittle, and crack down on people just for being "Captialist"?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 16, 2012 9:46 a.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" again you are wrong. We are saved by Grace after we have worked.

    I don't think you understand the Atonement. From the LDS website in an article titled "The Atonment of Jesus Christ" By Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. He was quite clear that the portions of the atonment that are free and universal are limited to the resurrection of dead, and overcoming the fall of Adam. He does stat that "Other aspects of Christâs atoning gift are conditional. They depend on oneâs diligence in keeping Godâs commandments. For example, while all members of the human family are freely given a reprieve from Adamâs sin through no effort of their own, they are not given a reprieve from their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christâs Church, and press forward in faithful endurance the remainder of lifeâs journey."

    He listed out works that must be accomplished as a condition to the gift of the atonment.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 16, 2012 9:32 a.m.

    activ2004 - if you want to go full bore God's Law, he said that we be productive, take what we NEED, and to use our excess to benefit those in need. It is a law that was tried, and failed because people were not able to get over their own pride and jealousy. They saw the money as "theirs", not a stewardship.

    I think it safe to say most, including members, most don't live only satisfying their needs only. The Amish are one of the few groups that seem to live this principle. We collectively have a long way to go. And please don't forget, that even in Book of Mormon times, there were laws, and there was a government, the compelled people to do things, probably even pay taxes. God's law does not live in a vacuum.

  • taybow SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:42 p.m.

    The economic and political systems of the world are based on money, power, glory and the lusts of the flesh. God's system is based on love. We won't have that one for a while.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Feb. 15, 2012 10:01 p.m.

    Okay, hands up, did anybody ever refuse a tax refund? Turn down Social Security and Medicare at the age they were old enough to get it? If you served in the military, refuse to use your GI loan, school benefits, etc, that were due you over and above your pay while in the service? How about VA benefits for health care? Why do I ask? Just making sure we're all on the same page, here. These, and government retirement, not only Federal, but State and Local, are still government support. It's all the same hand, and if it feeds you, it needs to get the food from somewhere. Taking out one piece here or there doesn't work, it's like unravelling a braided rug. Our country is that rug, and all we are, all we do, is in that rug. When some want to withdraw from it, walk on it instead of be part of it, it is no longer a rug but a heap of cloth strips and not too useful. It has happened to other rugs.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 9:35 p.m.

    Kargirl,

    The thoughts are from only two: the one is Korihor, the rest are from Lord Acton.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Feb. 15, 2012 9:18 p.m.

    @A Scientist: I would copy/paste that on my facebook page but I wouldn't know to whom to attribute that classy group of thoughts. So I will content myself, if it's all the same to you, with keeping them to refer to on my desktop. I think they pretty much state what needs to be said here, and mostly:

    "There is not a more perilous or immoral habit of mind than the sanctifying of success."

    Perhaps this is why so many have become afraid to say that the wealthy are not doing their share. No one wants to say the emporer is wearing no clothes, and the President, who came from a family like so many others, like my kids', their friends' families, was one who wasn't afraid to say something. I wonder if some haven't deified these wealthy people and the entities they created. Just a thought.

  • Bob Pomeroy Bisbee, AZ
    Feb. 15, 2012 9:17 p.m.

    fine. let's reinstitute jubilee debt forgiveness policies. of course that would require amending the constitution, but which laws are higher?

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Feb. 15, 2012 8:39 p.m.

    Here's something I want to throw our at some of you. I read that one big reason many of you have this big objection to programs to help people in need is that "the government can't spend your money as well as you can" (I'm paraphrasing) so you want to do it yourself. I have to wonder if it is a nice hiding place for prejudice regarding poor people. Anyway, try this on--maybe the government can better distribute the money to those people where they live because they are better able to find and provide not only money but services, even poor ones--more than they have--than you, or other charities that have targeted groups they give to? Government can also be surer that they get the money on a regular basis, pretty much keep tabs on them, and, if things are going well, help them stop needing the money. Until the economy took a dive, what I heard about CalWorks in my state sounded really great. Sadly, it lost funding. Many people were able to be self-sufficient using it. Can you do that yourself?

  • donn layton, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 6:43 p.m.

    Does God run the universe?
    Yes, Acts 17:28,For in him we live, and move, and have our being. - He is the very source of our existence: the principle of life comes from him: the principle of motion, also, comes: we live in him, move in him, and are in him. Without him we not only can do nothing, but without him we are nothing. We are, i.e. we continue to be, because of his continued, present, all-pervading, and supporting energy. God by definition the uncreated creator of all else,Aseity.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 6:42 p.m.

    Twin lights and LDS Liberal: I like Winston churchill's statement better! "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." You can say all you want about the virtues of more government, but no government, however implimented, that relies on compulsion is going to make a more virtuous citizenry! Your contempt for the wall street bankers, LDS Liberal, is justified. However, you have completely missed why it occurred. It is the result of corrupt politicians, Democratic and Republican, that have nurtured this corruption. A free market would resolve issues like this, something that we haven't had for close to a hundred years. We have been practicing socialism and crony capitalism for so long that people don't even know what real capitalism is! Greed and corruption are worse in socialistic countries. Nothing will help this country today but a return to God, not government!

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 6:23 p.m.

    per LDS Liberal 4:36 p.m. Feb. 15, 2012

    AM Radio brainwashes the ignorant? Really? Do tell.

    Sarcasm off?

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 6:05 p.m.

    I'm going to say no. God is compassionate, He can relate to everyone & is not in it for quick buck.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 15, 2012 5:34 p.m.

    Now just hold on here.

    I am getting so tired of people saying the if your a capitalist, you mud be a conservative, and if you are a liberal, you must be a socialist. Conservatives claim liberals are the ones trying class warfare, and yet read the comments on these pages. Read the reply to my post. The righter has the boldness to assume somehow I didn't put myself through college, that I didn't faithfully service my faith, the he somehow has cared for his family better than I, and has supported his community fat better then anyone who leans left of his political position. I challenge each and every one of those notions. This is the kind of puffed up pride, the very same described in the scriptures over and over again, that has torn down societies and left nations in destruction.

    And the use of the scripture to try to promote one form of government over another is almost blasphemy. Christ no where described what form of government he supported. He made a couple of things very clear. He said give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser. Our own Articles of Faith expressly state our nature with government - and that trumps anything Ezra Taft Benson said before becoming profit. One is scripture, one is personal philosophy. The other is that thing Christ taught is that we are stewards with which we have been granted. It isn't really "our" money. It is money that has been entrusted to us. He taught us that we should maximize those things for which we have been blessed.

    That is it. Period. There is nothing in there about a pioneer ethic - you won't find it in the scripture. Christ talks about Charity and Compassion, and the trappings of trying to server two masters - God and Wealth.

    I will not judge how Mit Romney has fulfilled his calling to manage that which he has been blessed. That is for him and his ultimate judge to decide. People on these pages that proclaim self worthiness, superiority and boast of in pride by virtue of their political parties affiliation as some how more spiritual that others have their own judgement to deal with.

    But I am tired of being told or implied that because I vote independent you all are morally superior, love your country, and are more spiritual than I because we don't vote the same.

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    Feb. 15, 2012 5:32 p.m.

    LDS Lib --

    "For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten son.

    i.e., Free, a gift, liberalism."

    No, liberalism would be God making *me* give *my* beloved son to save the world. Modern liberalism, here in this nation with the world's most progressive tax system, is all about doing good with other people's money.

    Anyway, the whole title of this piece is misguided. Economics in the human world is a response to the central principle of *scarcity.* We have to choose what to do with limited time, resources, and energy. God, being infinite and omnipotent, doesn't have that problem.

  • Moracle Blackshear, GA
    Feb. 15, 2012 5:29 p.m.

    It's interesting that a government that interjects Christian, Biblical teachings to excuse taking money from those work (to give to those who won't or can't work) is the same government that totally excludes those teachings from our educational institutions. Ironicallly, these are institutions that depend upon money collected through the government's misuse of those Biblical teachings, which are forbidden in those institutions!

    The Christian charity Jesus taught comes from FREELY giving, not from having your money forcefully taken from you (through taxation) and handed to those in need (as well as to some in greed - who are just too lazy to work).

    Taxation to help the poor robs those being taxed of the joy and blessings which come from willfully giving, or true charity.

    Without taxation, if the needs of the poor are made known to Americans, and if a trust were set up for charity, I think the response of a caring, giving nation would be astounding! Think of the great outpouring of untaxed dollars given
    to areas of devastation after hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis.

    Bottom line, we don't need government FORCING religious principles like charity down our throats.

    As a truly free people, we should be allowed to make that gift, of our own free mind and will, without government doing anything other than announcing the need in areas of our nation or world, and setting up a trust to receive our contributions of true charity. Disbursements from that fund should be decided and made solely by a volunteer group of ministers, who agree on where the money goes.

  • utahmtnman Park City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 4:51 p.m.

    Why would the author use that title and show Romney's picture. No one has alleged that Bain Capital was run like God runs the universe. The title and photo were used to pander and sensationalize. They succeeded in motivating me to read the piece, but now I will be dubious about the credibility and relevance of any article from this author.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 4:36 p.m.

    Liberalism today, Liberalism today, Liberalism today!
    Is that all you neo-cons have to go by?

    Look - I use the moniker LDS Liberal, and base it on plain ENGLISH.
    Look it up in a Dictionary.

    The Liberalism you keep refering to is not even FOUND in a dictionary.
    So it is not even a legitimate word.
    It is an imaginary word that AM radio college drop-outs have for mis-used for decades, and it is now showing signs of brainwashing the ignorant.

    ======================

    @RedShirt | 3:43 p.m. Feb. 15, 2012
    USS Enterprise, UT

    God is a capitalist. This is seen in the very fact that we are given choices, and we reap the consequenes of our choices. If God was something else, there would be no consequence to our choices.

    [We are saved by Grace, not by works. -- it's a gift, something that can not earned. Liberally. You really should brush up on the Atonement.]

    =========================

    and FYI

    @idablu | 4:05 p.m.
    Idaho Falls, ID

    The extreme Conservative Right are the ones stipping Freedom and Liberty to promote moral righteousness.
    [Forcing everyone to be good, by eliminating or banning all bad choices.]
    once again, Lucifer's Plan.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 4:34 p.m.

    "...every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."
    -- Korihor

    "There is not a more perilous or immoral habit of mind than the sanctifying of success."

    "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."

    "Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity."

    "The danger is not that a particular class (of people) is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern."

    "Liberty is not the power of doing what we like, but the right of being able to do what we ought."

    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more...[when you add] the certain corruption of authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is the point at which [religion] and [totalitarianism] meet and keep high festival, and the end learns to justify the means."
    -- Lord Acton

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Feb. 15, 2012 4:05 p.m.

    What a bunch of malarkey!

    Utopian societies as described in the scriptures were all based on the individual's free will and choice, NOT by government compulsion. Jesus strongly advocated impart of your substance and give freely. He did NOT say the government should take your substance because they know best how to distribute it. As a Christian I am very cognizant of the responsibility to give to the poor and downtrodden. But I will NEVER concede that the government knows what to do with my money better than I do.

    Lucifer wanted to level the playing field (save everyone) by compulsory means. Isn't that the same philosophy of' the Marxist/Socialist/Left?

    Is it any wonder that the Liberals' & Obama want to disincentivize (probably not a real word) charitable giving which would eventually have the effect of having even more people dependent on the government?

    Liberalism today means big government with government handouts, government regulation, big spending, anti-religion (for the most part), mothers' "choice" trumps an unborn child's rights, and government intrusion into family life and values. This does not remotely resemble anything like the "liberalism" Jesus described.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:51 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,
    You seem to have bought into the stereotypes of people... and actually started use them as if they are reality (a mistake in my book).

    Truth is... all people are just as capable of giving as you are (including conservatives and capitalists). So the terms free, gift, etc... not owned by liberalism (at least by today's definition of liberalism).

    If God is the exact opposite of a capitalist... why did he expect his servants to invest the talents he gave them... and return them with interest when he returned?

    I agree that Lucifer epitomises the bad side of capitalism, but he epitomises the BAD side of EVERY aspect of human nature. So why would this be any different?

    I just think you are getting too caught up in absolutes and the stereotypes each side has made for each other. Try looking at people as individuals, instead of the labels you give them (ie Liberal, capitalist, etc). It will help.

    From my experience in life (not just based on the glib stereotypes of people)... Conservatives (AKA Free Market Capitalists) are just as capable of being giving as you liberals. I know you won't agree (doesn't fit your stereotype of them) but scientific studies have proven this. They just don't like giving to be compuslive (IE tax/law/etc). They like giving to be self motivated (as Christ taught). That's all.

  • patriot vet Cedar City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:48 p.m.

    Come On, Deseret News! Putting bain capitol, God and Romney's picture in the same article is pure Right Wing Nonsense. Come out of the dark recesses of partisan politics. Become the neutral voice of the Church like most of us members expect.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:44 p.m.

    The Prosperity Gospel is one of the most disgusting perversions of the Gospel that exist.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:43 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" as many people point out to you on a daily basis, you either don't understand modern liberalism, or don't understand what the word libral means.

    God is a capitalist. This is seen in the very fact that we are given choices, and we reap the consequenes of our choices. If God was something else, there would be no consequence to our choices.

    Lets look at LDS teachings, who proposed that we be given a choice, knowing that some may not make it, and who is it that said that all will be taken care of and all will make it?

    If you want we can also compare the outcomes of a socialist (this is the opposite of capitalist) governments. For a socialist government to function you have to concentrate power into the hands of a few people. Now, if you go back to the bible, God warned the ancient Israelites that a having a king would be bad because of the evil that comes with concentrating power like that. Capitalism spreads out the power (you may complain about megacorporations, but those are a result of progressive/modern liberal policies) among many companies that are all competing against eachother.

    Capitalism is not based on greed, that is independant of all economic models. You could say that socialism is based on greed for power.

    Here is the other thing. If God is not a capitalism, why is it that the First Presidency wrote a letter in the 1940's stating that all isms that are like communism and socialism are wrong? Lets think about that for a minute. If the collectivist philosophies are wrong, what does that mean the individualist idea of capitalism is?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:34 p.m.

    Overall, this was a well-balanced look at an issue that should be a bit hard for us.

    The Proud Duck,

    First, you can subscribe to Social Darwinism without believing in Darwinian Evolution. Many do. Second, if pre-1920s America was not laissez-faire, when have we ever been? I thought that was the argument of so many today - that we should return to the wonder economy we had before Woodrow Wilson. If that was not our economic nirvana, when was it?

    bandersen,

    The quote you offer from Churchill was about democracy, not capitalism. His famous quote about capitalism was "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

    WeeWillie,

    Agreed. This had nothing to do with Romney or Bain (but I still thought it was an excellent review of the issues on both sides).

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 3:13 p.m.

    For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten son.

    i.e., Free, a gift, liberalism.

    No - God is not a Capitalist. In fact, he's the exact opposite.

    BTW - another example.

    Lucifer on the other hand,
    said, Send me, I'll do it - IF - I get the [Eternal/Celestial] payment for it, all the glory.

    Lucifer shows he is a true Capitalist [which is based on greed]
    and so, God threw him out.

    Have a nice day...
    ~ Peace

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    Feb. 15, 2012 2:56 p.m.

    There are two kinds of Americans. Consumers and producers.

    With victimizing and excessive giving of handouts, Obama is hoping the consumers out number the producers to win the fall election.

    Might work.

    Those rich people need to give a little more! Yep! Romney has no right being successful.

  • WeeWillie Ephraim, 00
    Feb. 15, 2012 2:46 p.m.

    The publication of this article with it's headline and photo of Mitt Romney is irresponsible. The article itself never even mentions Romney and this is a blatant case of unethical journalism. I'm just sayin'.

  • Oatmeal Woods Cross, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 2:30 p.m.

    What? The intellectual offspring of Ayn Rand and Social Darwinism suddenly becomes the adopted child of Christian conservatives? Surely this betokens the demise of true Christianity. And Jesus wept.

  • activ2004 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 2:19 p.m.

    Allow me to add a few other points:

    God's Government The same Yesterday, Today and Forever; Always honors the sacred tithes and offerings by working with a balanced budget.

    Welfare program: Requires beneficiaries when able to work for what they receive.

    Judicial System; requires restitution, remorse (broken heart and contrite spirit) and other discipline as revealed to those with authority to judge.
    Does not have an endless appeals process.

  • Mary E Petty Sandy, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 2:08 p.m.

    Jesus said âLove thy Neighbor as Thy Selfâ and âCome Follow Me.â This was an invitation, not a regulation, not a law, not a collective imposition. When he lived here on Earth, he used his own means to bless the lives of those he served and encouraged us to do likewise. He did not set up a government or a bureaucracy to control mankind or oversee that we did it his way, on his time frame, and for whom he said. He operates on the principle of agency, not force. His gospel is only applicable in the lives of those who are willing to freely live it.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 1:44 p.m.

    What a bunch of melarky.

    1. Early Christians, [and to the LDS, the City of Enoch, the 1st century Nephites/Lamanites, the Early Mormon Pioneers,] Bible/Book of Mormon/ Doctrine an dCovenants all tell us Christians should have "All things in Common". It is quesessential to Zion.

    2. Jesus drove out the "Money Changers". People who prodoced nothing, but made huge profits out of nothing.
    Completely Contrary from the start, beginning in the Garden of Eden, and the Law of the Harvest.
    Cain became Master Mahan by gaining Abel's flock without doing anything for them, other than getting rid of him.

    FastForward to today,
    WallStreet and Corporate Raiders.

    Mahan Economics 101.

    Jesus would run these guys out in a heartbeat.

  • activ2004 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 1:41 p.m.

    King James Version Holy Bible:

    Old Testament-1184 pgs.
    New Testament-403 pgs.
    The Book of Mormon (Another Testament of Jesus Christ) 531 pgs
    The Doctrine and Covenants 294 pgs.
    The Pearl of Great Price (Articles of Faith) 61 pgs

    Total-2473

    US Code and supporting case law etc. etc. etc.- Too many pages to count

    US Tax code- est. over 170,000 Pgs

    Time it takes to reconcile US gvt. taxes every April 15- hours if not days or weeks.

    God's law of tithing 10 percent

    Time it takes to reconcile tithes and offerings during the last month of the tax year in Gods government 5-15 minutes.

    Yeah, I will take God's government any day.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 1:30 p.m.

    'I was born with the right to believe these things and I will not sit around and watch these rights be debated out of existence.' - activ2004 | 12:09 p.m. Feb. 15, 2012

    YOU have every right.

    What you do NOT have, is the right...

    ** 'George Tiller Killed: Abortion Doctor Shot At Church' - Huffington Post - 05/31/09

    to FORCE that belief, on anyone else.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 12:41 p.m.

    utahbluedevil: You are absolutely right, which is why you shouldn't be bothered by those who want to return to constitutional principles and principles of limited government. I've believed in God and the constitution my whole life and never wanted, nor accepted, government intrusion on me or my family. Contrary to your accusation of abdicating responsibility, I have only been married once, raised five wonderful, happy, obedient, serving children, all the while paying taxes and following through with the real strength in America, the family. The amazing thing is, I did it without the government telling me how to do it! I did it the old fashioned way--you know the one that few believe in any more--through hard work and faith in God, something Obama, the democrats and republicans, don't believe is possible today. So, yup, I believe I want an America that believes in the old fashioned ways of self-government and virtuous citizenship, and if people don't want liberty, then at least they had there chance. Europe is no example of what I want for America! America offers the best hope for Liberty, not the current prison model of govermance! I've been standing up for these things my whole life. It is unfortunately that only in the past few years that others have begun to believe in God and the Constitution again! We aren't going away. We love this country too much to have weak and patronizing politicians condemn us to slavery and prison! So, you are right, we have what we deserve, but there is hope through education and obedience to God!

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    Feb. 15, 2012 12:22 p.m.

    "From the ruthless, Darwin-based capitalism of the pre-Depression era..."

    Stop right there. The man doesn't know his history.

    1. The "Social Darwinists" were, almost to a man, Progressives. The partisans of free-market capitalism were, almost to a man, conventionally religious men who didn't like Darwin at all. And the idea that prior to the 1930s, the American economy was anywhere remotely "laissez-faire" (as the hard leftists of the New Deal dishonestly portrayed it) is just ahistorical. The largest single American industry -- railroads -- had been heavily (and incompetently) regulated for decades. Wilson even briefly nationalized them, running them so ragged that they never really recovered in the 1920s. The Federal Reserve -- an utterly un-laissez-faire institution -- existed since 1913, and its overreaching incompetence is believed by most economists to have been the major factor in turning the crash of 1929 into the catastrophe of the Depression.

    As usual, most of what a liberal thinks he knows, isn't so.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 12:18 p.m.

    The Bible isn't a political or economic treatise. It doesn't tell us what economic system is right. It doesn't tell us what political system is right. It just tells us how to act in our relationships with God and our fellow man (and we need to have parts of both paradigms to live the way he taught us).

    We have to love our neighbor and take care of our neighbor... WILLINGLY, not by government force/mandate (no mention of government control of the economy or means of production in the Bible).

    God also seems to honor some capitolist values in his teachings... in the parable of the talents he expected his servants to INVEST the talents and show a profit when he returned, and was not happy with the man who didn't.

    I can't count the times where he encourages his children to to work, and prosper, and labor. I don't see him encouraging his people to get on welfare and stay there or rely on the Union Boss or the Government for your support. The patern in the Bible is love and charity, not compulsary means. Voluntary and open, not forced with tax codes with IRS enforcers and prison terms affixed.

    For any who think the Bible teaches Socialism... google "proper role of government" or "Ezra Taft Benson speech on socialism" and watch the YouTube video of the 1965 speech and warning on the proper role of government. It's long but worth it.

    The Bible does not advocate Socialism, Marxism or Communism. It advocates freedom, and doing good things for the right reasons (not out of fear of rulers/governors/politicians).

  • activ2004 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 12:09 p.m.

    My God's Government is found in The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon (Another Testament of Jesus Christ), The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price, and unarguably equally as important, the words of His modern day Prophet and Apostles which are transparent and open for anyone seeking to know what and how God governs His Universe.

    I was born with the right to believe these things and I will not sit around and watch these rights be debated out of existence.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:56 a.m.

    bandersen - your comments would be very true if our government were compelled upon us against our will. But the fact conservatives seem to forget is we have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is us, we are the government.

    Our government reflect the people who empower it. It you think things aren't right look in the mirror. Abdicating our responsibility by pretending the government is anything other than a reflection the peoples will is simply an attempt to disavow responsibility.

    When Caffetz talks about Washington being broken, he is simply saying the people voted in the wrong people, himself included. There is no mythical entity called the US Government. It is you and I - and the responsibility resides there.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:56 a.m.

    "...Many conservative Christians, mostly Protestant but also a number of Catholics, have come to believe and proudly proclaim that the creator of the universe favors free-wheeling, deregulated, union-busting, minimal taxes especially for wealthy investors, plutocrat-boosting capitalism as the ideal earthly scheme for his human creations,...".

    Are you suggesting there is any other possibility?

  • CottageCheese SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:38 a.m.

    Does Barack Obama run the government like God?

    It appears to be so...

    See... he is trying to take very limited number of resources (a few fishes and peices of bread) and feed everyone until they are filled AND still have full baskets.

    Unfortunately... Barack Obama is not God (despite what approximately 29% of the nation thinks) and does not have the same abilities.

  • CottageCheese SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:38 a.m.

    Does Barack Obama run the government like God?

    It appears to be so...

    See... he is trying to take very limited number of resources (a few fishes and peices of bread) and feed everyone until they are filled AND still have full baskets.

    Unfortunately... Barack Obama is not God (despite what approximately 29% of the nation thinks) and does not have the same abilities.

  • activ2004 Clearfield, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:30 a.m.

    Why don't you answer that for yourself? There are as many gods as there are opinions of who and what god is. Why don't you tell us what [your] god would do? Would [your] god run his government perpetuating hate and ignorance and 16+ trillion dollar deficits and then blame it on Pres. George W. Bush derangement syndrome?

    It is interesting, however, that there is only [one] progressive perpetrator of all this hatred and divisiveness and he has so much power over the hearts and minds of people as evidenced by this ridiculously absurd proposition designed only to propagate the anti-religion dysfunction and hypocrisy that is fulfilling his eternal objectives.

    He (the angel cast down from heaven) is going to lose in the end, that I am certain.

  • bandersen Saint George, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:16 a.m.

    As Winston Churchill said, Capitalism is the worst economic system in the world, accept for all the others. Anyone who believes the greed, corruption, etc. ceases to exist in a socialistic system is either naive or hiding behind their own greed and corrupt ideas to gain power. The fact the early christians had all things in common as an example of socialism is absurd to anyone with a bare minimum of intelligence! When anyone or anything moves from choice to compulsion, it ceases to be good at any level and only serves the corrupt and power hungry forces of those who want to rule by any means possible! It is ludicrous to think otherwise! Jesus' teachings were anything but for the use of force for whatever reason! Get a grip America and any who would be persuaded by such hogwash!

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:06 a.m.

    What a silly comparison to try to make (Bain and God).

    I disagree that the Bible tends to lead to "Socialism" as defined in the dictionary, "economic system charaterised by social ownership or control of the means of production and cooperative (AKA Government) management of the economy".

    The Bible doesn't focus on economic systems. It focuses on teaching us moral behavior (love your neighbor, etc).

    You could say that the Bible fortells a Socialist system that will take place when this imperfect existence is done. But that system will be lead by a PERFECTED being (not a corrupt politician).

    The selfish politicians we have today, vieing for this power and control over our lives are FAR from perfect. They are a group of the most imperfect people I can think of.

    A Socialist system run by selfish, corrupt, and imperfect men would NOT be a system I would want to live under. All attempts so far to establish this type of system under imperfect men have failed, and will continue to fail until they are lead by someone who is perfect and selfless and the people in the system are pure and selfless (not our current selfish politicians and population).

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 11:00 a.m.

    'Does God run the universe like Bain Capital?' - title

    **'Mitt Romney as job creator clashes with Bain record of job cuts' - By Lisa Lerer, Bloomberg News - Published by DSNews - 07/20/11

    "Employees who lost jobs at Bain-controlled companies more than a decade ago say they still hold Romney responsible.
    "I would not vote for him for anything," said Phyllis Detro, 68, who lost her job..."

    **'GOP rivals turn Romneys jobs record against him' - By Kasie Hunt - AP - Published by DSnews - 01/09/2012

    'A separate AP analysis found that at least 4,000 workers lost their jobs at 45 companies bought by Bain...' article

    Wow.

    I HOPE not.

    Maybe that's why, after the old testiment, there were so many ADDITIONAL books published?

    New Testiment
    Book of Mormon, etc, etc.

  • Bloodhound Provo, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 10:59 a.m.

    I'm conservative and Republican. However, I'm very uncomfortable when I hear Christians (LDS, Baptist, etc.) talking like ruthless social Darwinists. Some of these people sound worse than Scrooge. A few seem to believe that we would have utopia if we just outlawed all forms of government, which they claim doesn't help anyone. In their eyes, anything is justified if it improves their bottom line. Doesn't sound very Christ like to me.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2012 10:51 a.m.

    You can find biblical quotes to support any position. People used the Bible to support slavery ad they used it to support the abolitionist cause.