Comments about ‘China bans Ramadan fast in Muslim northwest’

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Published: Wednesday, July 2 2014 7:12 a.m. MDT

Updated: Wednesday, July 2 2014 7:12 a.m. MDT

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Tekakaromatagi
Dammam, Saudi Arabia

The Chinese government is heavy-handed. Let people fast and don't punish them for living their religion and exercising their freedom of conscience. When I hear about corruption in China, or human trafficking or polluting, etc. I think that it is dumb to restrict people living according to their religion.

They could use more of that, not less.

lket
Bluffdale, UT

but notice where the attacks come from

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

While the Chinese government can be notoriously heavy handed this story makes me wonder if they are not acting in a more rational manner (than the PC governments in the West) towards Islam and the negative impacts this religion has on global society.

The actions (perpetrated in the name of religion) that get a pass from society in general are staggering.

Does anyone imagine that if the Boy Scouts protected an army of child abusers for decades or if the Red Cross sent suicide bombers against civilians who did not donate blood, that these organizations would not be shuttered immediately?

Yet couch these same actions under organizations claiming divine authority and suddenly all norms of society are suspended and the only actions taken are to try and bring to justice individual perpetrators.

There is no ideology that has the power to derange the human mind (of both believers and society at large) like religion. Given today’s destructive technology, we’ll be lucky if we can survive this bronze-age poison.

the truth
Holladay, UT

@Tyler D

NON religious ideologies have done much more terrible things than religions have,

in fact religion pales in comparison.

Imprisoning - concentration camps, reservations, internment camps,gulags, and so on. It is because of the ideologies of the left here in USA that have million imprison in our prison systems, rather than punishing and letting go, The left wants prisons sentences for everything.

Slavery - Any and all forms of slavery. slavery by the Nazis, slavery of the communists...

Death and exactions the exceed a hundred million, religion? still only in the thousands. Gas chambers were invent by the Fabian socialists.

Tortures and other violence and deprivations of the untold millions by the non-religious. religious still in the thousands

Interestingly most bad attributed to religion are done by evil people for power and control, and even wealth, abut have no religious value.

Any ideology can have great influence over a person. just look at the leftist comments on this site every day, hating someone or some group. and even wishing or advocating violence and deprivation of freedom eon them.

Odd you ignore all the good religion mostly does and teaches, and it's benefits to society.

intervention
slc, UT

@tyler d
So now entire religions are to be condemned for the acts of individuals and extremist groups? If we held all religions to the standards you propose there would be none that would be free from the same level of condemnation, maybe we should instead focus on those individuals and groups that are just looking for excuses for their behaviors.

ExTBird
Springville, US-UT

I always like checking the Faith section of DN from time to time. It helps remind me why leaving the LDS was for the best. It is outrageous that a place that screams about Freedom of Religion on a daily basis, and complains that the government is stepping on their beliefs can just shrug this off. They are just Muslims right? No need to give them the same respect, and protections that you want for yourselves. It is the absolute height of hypocrisy and it's shameful.

Remember this one folks. When the governments of the world decide that they want to pick on the LDS church you won't have much of a defense. If they start forcing you to allow same-sex marriages in your temples as an example. If it is apparently okay to ban/ignore the practices of Muslims then it is okay to ban/ignore the practices of Mormons, Catholics, etc. In the eyes of the government you are all the same. Careful what you choose to turn a blind eye to. Others might do the same when it's you that needs defending.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@the truth – “Any ideology can have great influence over a person.”

I agree.

Dogmatic ideology is the problem - religious dogma just happens to be the worst of the lot because it’s the only one with the power to delude people into thinking that heinous acts in this life will get them paradise in the next.

As deluded as the Soviets were, the threat of mutual destruction kept them in check. A religious fanatic is untroubled by this threat of physical death.

And the only reason for the disparity in atrocity numbers is due to population differences – if the 500 year Christian policy of burning heretics (any non-conformists really) were in place in 20th century Europe their numbers would likely be in the hundreds of millions.

In fact given the vitriol & hate we see here daily from many of the Religious Right, I would suggest that the only reason some of them are not atrocity committing fanatics is because they live in a country founded on the Enlightenment values of reason.

PS – Nazism was a Bavarian right-wing Catholic movement and was mythic religious at the core.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

As far as the benefits to society provided by religions, up until relatively recently we had no way of testing this hypothesis since pretty much everyone was religious. Fortunately we now have lots of evidence and the conclusions for religion don’t look very good.

By almost any measure of well-being (poverty, crime, health, happiness, etc…) the largely agnostic/atheist countries of Denmark, Norway, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Germany, Japan, New Zealand, England, France, Finland, etc. are the best places to live in the entire world.

[It’s worth noting that crime in many of these countries is disproportionately committed by immigrant Muslims.]

Just ask yourself – would you rather raise your family in the most religious country in the world (Pakistan) or least religious country in the world (Sweden)?

Melanna
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Tyler D: You state, "Does anyone imagine that if the Boy Scouts protected an army of child abusers for decades..."

According to recent court rulings, both the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church did exactly that. Are you suggesting a police presence is needed at all future meetings of both groups to see that it does not occur again?

Timothy McVeigh was Christian. Should we condemn all Christians because of his behavior?

If it is not okay to condemn all Christians because of the behavior of a few, why is it okay to condemn all Muslims because of the actions of a few?

And did you miss the part of the story where it says these prohibitions on practicing the Muslim religion have been in place in the past - before there were any attacks?

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Melanna – “both the Boy Scouts and the Catholic Church did exactly that.”

The Boy Scouts did not engage in a systematic decades long cover up, secret payoffs to victims (with gag orders), no disciplinary action against abusers, all orchestrated at the highest levels. The Catholic Church did all these things and best I can tell the potential for future abuse has not diminished much (which is not the case with the Scouts).

As for condemning Christians or Muslim, I don’t condemn anyone – I condemn any dogma or ideology that has the potential (tremendous in the case of religion) to derange otherwise decent human beings.

Islam has this potential in spades as should be self-evident. If you doubt this, ask yourself why we don’t see Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers. If ever there was a group justified in violent action against powerful oppressors, this is it.

Christianity is a mixed bag – if you follow the NT you’ll probably be OK (the politically useful but horrible Book of Revelation notwithstanding – sad most Christians can’t recognize this book was all about imperial Rome).

The OT - this has serious deranging potential.

brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

On the one hand, I agree that Islam at its heart is an aggressively expansionistic and militaristic ideology that cannot be separated indefinitely from the state. Efforts to curb it physically and militarily are at times necessary, but are by themselves ultimately vain. The Islamic war machine has practically limitless resources-- a billion people and most of the world's oil reserves. Saudi Arabia alone spends 20% of its budget each year on the propagation of their form of Islam-- radical Wahhabism. The threat is real and isolated westerners are naïve. The earlier, more amicable, Meccan sections of the Qur'an in Islamic theology are abrogated by the later, militaristic, Medinan sections.

As for the Chinese government's actions, this is mostly just secularists ruling with an ideological iron fist. Underground Christianity is currently "devastating" their hegemony-- not with RPGs and AK-47s, but with words and miraculous works. In the end, sacrificial, primitive Christianity is the only "ideology" that will have the backbone to stand up against the Islamic juggernaut. More Muslims have come to Christ in the last 30 years than in the previous 1400 years.

brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

Many of the actions modern secularists have been taking against Islam in their own countries seem completely irrational. Some European countries ban Muslim women from wearing veils. What practical effect does this have other than to provide false comfort to Europeans who want to keep their heads in the sand and to pointlessly aggravate the Islamic immigrants? You are not going to change their worldview by legislating them out of the public eye. If it's that big of a deal, kick them out of the country and stop letting them immigrate.

China's actions here smack of the same deranged fear. They prohibit public fasting. So what? It's only going to end up coming around to bite them in the end. They haven't ultimately preserved their own interests with this action-- and again, Islam never forgets an indiscretion, no matter how slight.

There are much more rational fears than veils and fasting when it comes to Islam. Europe will see this soon enough as the Islamic minority becomes a louder majority. But as with much of secularism, the scale of priorities is turned on its head.

brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

As for Buddhism, the Theravada form does tend to be violent and oppressive, even when (or especially when) it is in the majority. Both Islam and Christianity are currently suffering in Burma and Thailand-- and Islam never forgets a transgression. They will wisely bide their time until they have the means to repay them and balance the scales of suffering.

The OT, when properly understood in its "Bronze" and Iron Age historical and cultural context, has little danger of deranging supposedly uniquely sane westerners. All of what happened there, when seen with the right perspective, makes a great deal of sense. Those who think modern westerners have achieved a higher morality than anyone who has gone before are thoroughly deluded, to the point that they would condone a convenience abortion in the case of a female baby while at the same time seeing a serial rapist get free cable for the rest of his life-- and then also believe that pornography advances women's rights and social condition rather than oppressing and exploiting a sexually abused history.

LovelyDeseret
Gilbert, AZ

The Communist Party is all about equality and oppressing religious groups seems to be what the equality movement is about these days.

Frozen Fractals
Salt Lake City, UT

@Tyler D
"While the Chinese government can be notoriously heavy handed this story makes me wonder if they are not acting in a more rational manner (than the PC governments in the West) towards Islam and the negative impacts this religion has on global society."

Throwing out religious freedom would not be a rational choice for the US to make.

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