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Comments about ‘Judge strikes down Michigan's ban on gay marriage’

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Published: Friday, March 21 2014 11:16 p.m. MDT

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Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

@ Avenue
Vernal, UT

@Baccus0902
" was simply stating his or her religious beliefs, and you have no reason to call him/her a bigot for that."

My dear Avenue, I am not ignoring your comment. Several hours ago I answered your post unfortunately the DN censorship felt my comment was 'dubious" in something and put it on
"hold". Let's see igf this fares better.
What I answered was the definition of bigotry and the difference between belief and action.
However, despite the fact that I didn't insulted you. I answered your statement, something was considered out of place. As usual as is the case when we mix religion and reason, id religion has the power will silence reason...history repeats itself.

Avenue, by the way. My answer stated my support for your right to disagree with SSM and my disagreement with forcing religious beliefs through legislation. Nothing too fancy or complicated but obviously dangerous :)

A Quaker
Brooklyn, NY

@Avenue: You said, "@Baccus0902, It seems to me that you are comparing certain religions, including my own, to bigotry."

That's not what he said. It's time each of us accepts personal responsibility for the way we treat others.

The Christian religion is not bigoted. Jesus loves all, accepts all, and tells you to "Love thy neighbor, as thyself." It's YOUR choice to ignore this. If you, or the leaders you follow, make a CHOICE to dig into the Old Testament and root around for an EXCUSE to shun, persecute and ostracize our gay and lesbian neighbors, that's your responsibility, not His. There are 613 commandments (mitzvot) in the Old Testament. Jesus simplified this to two principles for us. Love God and Love thy neighbor.

If you can't bother to do that, you'd best get busy following those other 612 commandments you've been ignoring. You can start with Leviticus 15:19-30 and 20:18.

gmlewis
Houston, TX

@Values Voter: "These are eccentric religious beliefs most likely acquired as part of an intense childhood indoctrination."

Nope, they were acquired as an adult. I didn't know a thing about the Plan of Salvation as a child. I'm glad you find these beliefs fascinating; I do, too.

Utefan60
Salt Lake City, UT

gmlewis I am relying on my six generations of Mormon background. First and foremost is that we are to obey the laws of the land. It never said we have to agree with them. We can believe whatever we want but we are to be subject to the law.

My religious beliefs are my own, but I strongly believe that all citizens should be allowed civil rights as citizens of this country. My religious beliefs should not enter into condemnation of those who believe differently than I do. I support the right to all citizens living with secular laws that uphold the constitution. Using my religious beliefs to condemn others is not a value that my Mormon forbearers taught. So when people start to tell others that they will be judged in the afterlife, I take offense.

Man things I personally may not believe in but I'm not going to push my beliefs on others. It seems this is what the Eagle Forum has been doing for years and it is back firing on them now.

A Quaker
Brooklyn, NY

I think I've noticed a bias in Deseret News' headlines. When a single judge sitting at trial rules in favor of something that DN favors, or at least doesn't oppose, the headline reads, "Court Rules...," expressing full respect for the court as an institution, being more than the decision of that single judge who made it.

But, when a similarly-comprised court rules in such a way to irritate DN, your headline expresses no such respect for the court, diminishing it to just some decision of one man, "Judge Strikes Down ...."

I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to express your opinion, or even your contempt, but if you want to be professional about it, put that on the editorial pages and try to report the news itself in a consistent manner.

gmlewis
Houston, TX

@Utefan60:
I didn't say that Same Sex Marriage should be legally denied. I said that those who enter in to it on earth will encounter complications in the Spirit World. There is nothing judgemental about that. I have had friends over the past 45 years who were or are attracted to their same sex. It isn't my place to judge them, nor am I qualified to do so. But I do know that those who legally bind themselves to someone of their same sex in mortality is going to encounter additional problems in the Spirit World. That is a fact which you are perfectly free to disagree with.

A Quaker
Brooklyn, NY

@gmlewis: I humbly suggest that you need to learn the difference between fact and belief. No one alive has seen the spirit world of which you speak. It may be a fact that someone imagined such a world for you, but merely describing something doesn't prove its existence.

True, there is much in spiritual allegorical fiction that we can learn from, but let's not confuse that with reality. In fact, much of the Bible's description of judgement after life speaks about what is in someone's heart, and not the petty violations of commission or omission that make up much of our lives. Paul explains in Romans 14 why a Christian's heart is more important than verbatim Old Testament law.

We on Earth are not qualified to judge the moral totality of a person's life. That is reserved unto God. And there are other warnings that the judgemental shall be judged harshly themselves, for the lack of love in their hearts, lack of hospitality, and for their unkind words and acts.

If you want a pleasant afterlife, be more loving in this one.

Owen
Heber City, UT

@ gmlewis -- As someone who learned about the Plan since I was born more than 55 years ago, I don't know that those who legally bind themselves to someone of the same sex in mortality is going to encounter additional problems in the Spirit World. And neither do you.

That is a fact you are perfectly free to disagree with. But doing so puts you at odds with your own religion, which relies on continuous revelation on many great and important things. Our founders taught we don't know a tiny fraction about the afterlife and that those minds unwilling to accept change "will fly to peaces like glass as soon as any thing Comes that is Contrary to their traditions ..."

koseighty
The Shire, UT

A Quaker said:
"And there are other warnings that the judgemental shall be judged harshly themselves, for the lack of love in their hearts, lack of hospitality, and for their unkind words and acts."

This. A thousand times this. Interesting you should mention hospitality in your list. Jewish tradition teaches that the sin of Sodom and Gamorrah was their treatment of the poor and strangers. Lot proved himself worthy by taking the strangers (angels) in and offering them food, water, wine and shelter. Never did it have anything to do with homosexuality as the Christians and Muslems would (much) later claim.

As Ezekiel said, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16:49)

Treat others as you would be treated — still the best way to judge any situation.

Miss Piggie
Phoenix, AZ

@10CC:
"How exactly will hetero marriage and society be damaged?"

Try this for a possibility... If marriage goes beyond one/man, one/woman the door has to be opened for marriages of any and all relationship combinations that can be imagined. This could include incest, polygamy, children, and even a bunch of friends of all sexes deciding to tie a common knot. At which time marriage will become meaningless and will more than likely disappear. Those who interpret the law saying SSM should be allowed cannot stop there unless they are willing to foster discriminatory action.

@Baccus0902:L
"LGBT and SSM marriage doesn't hurt anyone."

The issue is not about hurting anyone. The issue is about preserving the institution of marriage as it appears God intended. If you can show that God intended SSM, please provide the cites.

"Your bigotry, the physical and psychological violence against those who are different to you hurt millions."

It's not the poster's violence. It's God's who tells us that 'vengeance is Mine.' Walking on thin ice for momentary pleasures might not be very smart.

wrz
Phoenix, AZ

@equal protection:
"A few decades ago many believed that God separated the races for a reason, and justified that belief to oppose interracial marriages. They argued that this belief was not bigotry, it was was what God wanted."

God seems to have wanted alotta things that man has ignored using free-agency. Doesn't mean that God is wrong or has changed Her mind.

Incite Full
Layton, UT

Foolish Michiganians! How dare you think you could make your own laws!

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Incite: You really should read the Judge's decision. From pages 29 and 30:

"The popular origin of the MMA does nothing to insulate the provision from constitutional
scrutiny. As Justice Robert H. Jackson once wrote, "... [t]he very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.""

"The Court is not aware of any legal authority that entitles a ballot-approved measure to special deference in the event it raises a constitutional question. On the contrary, 'the Supreme Court has clearly stated that if . . . an enactment violates the U.S. Constitution - whether passed by the people or their representatives - judicial review is necessary to preserve the rule of law . . . [t]he electorate cannot order a violation of the Due Process or Equal Protection Clauses by referendum or otherwise, ...'"

Jimmytheliberal
Salt Lake City, UT

@gmlewis...Your post referencing "The Spirit World" indicates to me that you assume everyone is of Mormon faith. Is that correct? Do you truly believe that anyone outside of your faith actually cares about what is to happen in this "Spirit World"?

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