You know, This is a very difficult debate to win, because both sides have a
strong side and a weak side. Creationist theory: Weak side:
Explaining the scientific evidence that shows the earth to be older than 10,000
yearsStrong side: Explaining the beginning of life.Evolutionist
theory: Strong side: Explaining the scientific evidence that shows the earth to
be older than 10,000 years,Weak Side: Explaining the beginning of life.That being said, I am definitely LDS, and Support a mixture, which I
personally think is the best theory to me. For instance, 1 day on earth a
thousand years on Kolob, so that offers another 7000 years, thus making the
creation of the earth slightly more believable. However, One could even make a
statement that the term day, translated back into original Hebrew, might have
just meant periods of time. This could explain for millions of years of gaps,
and the confusion.
Personally, I think that the whole evolution vs. religion conversation is
irrelevant, because I believe that God works through natural law, not magic. God
knows all, so He understands genetics, epigenetics, biochemistry, physical
sciences, etc. I believe that because of His knowledge, He could use natural
laws (possibly evolution) to create Man.I believe that religion
explains the purpose for creation, not the actual sequence and mechanisms for
it. True science investigates and explains natural events in the Universe, but
as any scientist knows, science cannot ultimately explain if there was a
directing force in creation, because science is an empirical endeavor. There is
no experiment that can be devised that could demonstrate purpose.I
believe that science and religion should be complimentary, not oppositional. Too
many try to make the conversation adversarial.
@mark- it's an analogy
@Lagomorph – “First of all, many thanks to Tyler D…”Thank you for the kind words.Science will likely always be
vulnerable here because it is an open ended body of knowledge – it
doesn’t have all the answers, and the answers it does have can often be
superseded by better science (what good science is all about).And
religious folks are ever eager to “fill in the gaps” of what we
don’t yet know, and unfortunately when this is coupled with “because
God told me” sorts of statements this carries a lot of weight for many.
And let’s face, we all want answers and it’s very comforting to feel
like you have them.As you said, with evolution we can explain a
great deal about the natural world. Without evolution everything is either a
giant mystery or is only explained by a very strange and seemingly unintelligent
designer (who likes to give certain creatures residual tails or gills or a whole
host of other features that makes no sense)But all the anomalies we
see in Earth’s life forms are explained by evolution…
patriot: "I can't think of one single thing that happens in a hospital
that has anything remotely to do with evolution... The theory that man evolved
from a monkey has nothing to help a doctor fix your heart or liver
problems."The common ancestry posited by evolution implies that
humans share physiological, biochemical, and genetic traits with other species.
Common ancestry makes medical testing of experimental drugs and technologies on
other species as proxies for human subjects possible. Common ancestry makes it
possible to transplant tissues and organs from other species (e.g. pig heart
valves to fix heart problems) into humans without rejection. Evolutionary
theory helps to understand the genetic relationships between species and helps
researchers know which species are good candidates for research subjects.
Unique special creation of species or intelligent design does not provide any of
these same insights.Medicine is all about biology, and Dobzhansky
was right, nothing in biology makes sense without evolution (even if it is not
directly applicable to surgery). Personally, I want doctors who understand
biology-- all of it.
"I can't think of one single thing that happens in a hospital that has
anything remotely to do with evolution"I'm sure you've
heard of antibiotics and vaccines.
First of all, many thanks to Tyler D. for thoughtfully articulating the core
issues, treating the discussion with dignity and respect, and representing us
sciencey types well (continuing a long string of high standard posts in this and
other comment threads). Also for brokenclay, with whom I rarely agree, thanks
for raising the level of discussion here.patriot: "...the best
physical proof of creation ...perfect in its design ...As an electrical engineer
...organized and perfect design..."Yet another data point in
support of the Salem Hypothesis.What is the probability that a
complex system could be sustained for long if its components were not adapted to
its conditions? For example, how long could organisms whose optimal metabolic
operating range was 250-300 degF prosper on earth? Of course creatures prosper
in the range of conditions in which they live. Natural selection weeds out the
statistical outliers. If that gives the appearance of design, so be it, but it
is readily accomplished by nonintelligent agents.
"Most everything they do is based on theories of biological
evolution"I can't think of one single thing that happens in
a hospital that has anything remotely to do with evolution. Nothing. What in the
world are you talking about? The theory that man evolved from a monkey has
nothing to help a doctor fix your heart or liver problems. Medical science -
like engineering - is all based on how things react to certain stimuli. Why
those things happen science has no clue. Magnetism results from moving
electrons. Voltage and resultant current occur when a magnetic field cuts
through a conductor. Why does magnetism exist? No clue. This invisible field is
the heart of all electrical engineering. The heart and brain respond to
electrical activity in the body. Where and how those electrical fields exist is
a mystery. All medical science knows is how to control things...not how to
Worf, I'm curious, did somebody claim your watch evolved from a stone, or a
bus from a boulder? Where did you get these ideas? Do you believe that this
comment of yours is somehow a response to evolution? Do you believe it is
clever? Just curious. A Quaker, while I appreciate your point, I
also imagine a god could very well create us for violent tendencies and enjoy
wars very much. In fact that is what most gods have been all about throughout
human history. It is only the recent modern god that has been kind it would
seem. Most others have taken great pleasure in war and violence and in
manipulating mankind against one another. Including the one in the Old
Full disclosure - I haven't watched the debate yet, but at least from what
I've heard, all of my non-religious friends claim that Bill Nye trounced in
the debate, while none of my religious friends came out and endorsed Ken
Hamm's performance.The problem with Ken Hamm's postulate
is it is dependent on a belief that the creation happened within six intervals
of 24 hours, that it took place 6,000 years ago, and that to believe anything
other than that paradigm is to succumb to the influence of secularism.There is plenty of room within the scope of science to believe that God was
involved in the mechanics of the origins of the universe. The 2.1 billion year
time frame is still a lot closer to the actual age of the earth than Ken
Hamm's 6,000 years (although I'm not quite sold on the 2.1 billion
years either). The theory of evolution, even if not literally true, still
provides valuable insights into the interrelatedness of species on the earth.
So we, as believing people, should have a vested interest in the power and
wisdom of science to understand the creation.
Of course!My watch evolved from a rock, and a school bus from a
bolder.These things just happens. Nobody created that.
99% of every species is extinct. God isn't very good at keeping his toys
@TheRock: There is loads of evidence against "Intelligent Design,"
without even looking outside our own bodies.Our skeletons are poorly
designed, with major failure points:Knees.Hips.Backs.Apparently we're not purpose-designed for standing upright. The red in our red blood is basically just the chlorophyll molecule with an
iron atom. If someone set out to build haemoglobin on purpose, it would look
different. Probably so would chlorophyll.Babies' heads are too
big, and poorly supported, judging from the tragic number of shaking deaths each
year.We're violent creatures, full of animal fury. Why would
an "Intelligent Designer" do that? Cockfighting wasn't enough fun
for Him? "Oh, cool! Now I can play War!" No.Now that we
can sequence DNA and see some of our biological programming, it's curious
that 98.8% of it should be identical to chimpanzees. What was up that day? The
Designer wasn't feeling particularly creative so He just reused some old
project?I believe in God. I believe that God is Love. I don't
believe He does sloppy work or sadistically made all these poor design choices
on purpose Himself. Evolution gave us God's love. Isn't that enough?
If one were to prove that man was the result of evolution I would simply
exclaim: So that's how God did it!Atheists have no such
convenience. With them it is evolution or God. In as much as they don't
want to believe in God they have no choice but to believe in evolution. I have
found most atheists to be closed to any evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
They claim that Intelligent Design is not science because it cannot be tested
in a laboratory, as if any part of evolution can be tested in under 10 million
years. In fact it is evolution that cannot be tested in a
laboratory. Evolution postulates that life emerged all by it's onesies,
with no intervention, then they try to test it with scientists intervening.
Intelligent design attributes the emergence of life to an intelligence that
intervened to create that life.It sounds to me like evolutionists
are really testing Intelligent design, assuming of course that the scientists
are intelligent. Unintelligent scientists are in short supply.
I you use the speed of light as the "clock" and take into account time
dilation from the moment of "big bang" the bible account of each of the
"days" of creation lines up quite nicely with the geological record of
"epochs" of creation.
Quaggy "It's articles like this that are the very reason I do not
subscribe to DN (dispite being a member of the LDS Church since 1991)."It's the Associated Press. It is in every newspaper in the English
It's articles like this that are the very reason I do not subscribe to DN
(dispite being a member of the LDS Church since 1991). Really, are there any
obviously intellectually challenged individuals left in the world who still
oppose the facts of evolution? I thought the neaderthals all died off a long
time ago. :) Seriously, though, when supposedly religious people oppose
evolution and use religion as their flimsy excuse, they only belittle and
disrespect all of Sacred Writ. If they can't see that, then they
haven't read the scriptures. If so, they haven't understood them. Try
Genesis 2:4. That's a nice one to read. Or try comparing Genesis 6:7 &
8:4 with 3 Nephi 8:17. Have some fun with that. Come back when one has learned
something and significantly increased their maturity level.Was it
not Joseph Smith who said, for us all, "The first and fundamental principal
of our holy religion is that we believe that we have a right to embrace all and
every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or
prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men." I *love* that
Science and Religion are not in conflict, but most of the world has insufficient
knowledge on either side and has taken theories beyond the facts. LDS faith has records in the Books of Moses and Abraham that state during the
creation the earth was near Kolob, which is at the center of the Universe where
God dwells. 1 day on Kolob was a 1,000 years of our earth time. The earth
after the fall moved away from Kolob, which supports scientific evidence of the
universe expanding. Biblical evidence doesn't state how long Adam and Even
where in the garden when each day was a 1,000 years. Also the
scriptures state that the earth was created from existing matter. Matter was
not created, but organized by the Creator. I believe science hasn't even
begun to discover how old the matter is on this earth. Although all
creatures evolve and adapt to their environment there is no clear scientific
evidence to prove that man evolved from apes, plants, or amebas. On the
scientific side that is pure speculation. Adam lived 930 years, which means in
Kolob's time he died the very day he partook of the fruit, just as God said
@Ultra Bob – “If God wanted to, he could have created this world 5
minutes ago with all the history too.”I’ll buy that
– only if we posit a pantheon of gods who, sitting around one day before
the creation of our world, decided to dole out various planets to the group and
when Earth was drawn from the hat they gave it to the god named Don Rickles.When asked if he was satisfied with his planet, he laughed hysterically
and said, “oh yeah, I’m going to have a blast toying with these
dolts and watching them acquire a bunch of “knowledge” which is all
bunk.”Actually, your comment reminds me of the exchange in the
movie Major League where the Caribbean guy is praying to an idol before the game
and one of his teammates walks by and says “why don’t you pray to
Jesus.” The guy responds by saying “I like Jesus but he no help with
curve ball,” to which the Christian replies angrily, “are you trying
to say Jesus can’t hit a curve ball?!”
The "Big Bang" indicates an intelligent being behind it; controlling it
carefully. When the "big band" occurred, the rate at which it exploded
had to be precisely timed. If the rate had been minutely faster, the universe
would be all gasses--the lighter elements and unable to support life and a
universe as it is. If it had been minutely slower, the universe would be
composed of the heavier elements with no gasses; again unable to support life.
Because an intelligent being controlled the rate of the "bang" we have a
universe composed of the heavy and light elements resulting in planets, solar
systems, constellations, etc. The "Big Bang" is further evidence of
If God wanted to, he could have created this world 5 minutes ago with all the
To believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old, you'd have to believe God was
only 6,000 years old. Otherwise, I can't imagine the Omnipotent Eternal
sitting around, alone in a dark void for endless eons before deciding that was
just too boring. In fact, Genesis gives us a pretty good picture of a God who
was quite interested in making stuff, and not moping around or dragging His feet
about it.If you believe that God is Eternal and has always existed
since before the dawn of time, then so must the universe be.The
theological premise of 6,000 years is based on a simpleton's reading of
Scripture. If you want a more appropriate theological question to answer, why
not contemplate what was around before the Big Bang that created all the matter
that we know about? What was around more than 14 billion years ago? How old is
God? Now, THERE are a couple of questions that scientists won't mind you
seriously speculating about.
I wonder if Nye ever considered that God inspires technology. In addition why
would he be seeking to discredit creationism, don't scientists explore all
avenues of possibilities? It is a poor scientist at best who pushes theories as
facts.Finally, the odds are far greater when considering the
complexities of earth of divine design (God) than "Big Bang". If I were
a scientist, I'd focus on the theory that is most likely true, not the one
that is most likely false.
Adam and Eve are the parents of all humans now living on the earth. We are all
from the same genetic line. How that fits into pre-historic man or
humanoid beings that are not Homo Sapiens; I have no idea. Since it is not in
the Bible I have to go to science for now. Precept upon precept. "Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we have no
more need for a Bible." Counsel for the Bible scholar and the scientist.
Carl Sagan was not an Atheist in the 70's and 80's. He was considered
Agnostic until 1996 when he wrote a few lines of disappointment that he could
not believe in an afterlife or a bearded man sitting on a heavenly throne. But, his worry troubles me too about people of faith. That people of
faith would not take science seriously and that only atheists would pursue
science. The idea that scientists and religionists should not cross lines is far
more dangerous. "The Earth is an object lesson for the
apprentice gods." - Carl Sagan 1934-1996
Enuma Elish "If we could fast forward the time 200-500 years, what beliefs
would be different compared to your system now."In 200-500 years
science will be far far different than it is today. If religion had every
science truth it would blow everyone's mind and nobody would believe it.
Science is advanced by inspired men and women."We believe that
He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of
God." - A of F:9"We believe all things, we hope all
things." - Joseph Smith (No hypothesis should be dismissed.)"And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I can
not speak another; for my work is not yet finished.".."Wherefore,
because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my
words." 2 Nephi 29:9 & 10
Science is just the facts? Facts change, seeing should not be believing."The Brontosaurus Never Really Existed." - Jan 8, 1986"Pluto Is No Longer A Planet" - Aug 26, 2006"Stephen
Hawkings Wants To Do Away With Black Holes" - 10 hours ago"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's
perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right.
Science is a self-correcting process." - Carl SaganThe same can
be true of faith. Genesis can't prove Creation. So? Disproving Genesis
can't disprove a Creator. "My faith is strong I don't
need proofs, but every time a new fact comes along it simply confirms my
faith." - Carl Sagan (Contact 1985)"For he will give unto
the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept." - D&C 98:12
@ Ron HiltonHow do you define death? From a spiritual perspective,
death is the spirit leaving the body; but biologically, death is the cessation
of metabolic processes. For example, a heart can be removed from a recently
deceased human, flown across the country and put in someone else. Does the heart
have a spirit? No? then it is not alive spiritually but it is still metabolizing
so it is alive biologically. There could have been many forms of life on the
earth prior to Adam that lived and died biologically. Adam was the first
"man" with a human spirit is how I see it.
Nye spent most of the time not explaining evolution but attacking creationism.
"He believes..." is a dumb way to make a point.Neither side
heard the other.On the other hand, science has really evolved over
the last century, but is still evolving. Creationism has also evolved. Some say
the Creationist can't change their argument when science is advanced if
they believe the bible. Why not? They are not mutually exclusive.These debates are great to show how each side has evolved with better
arguments over the years.
clearly the 6 days of the creation were very long time periods.End
of the debate.
Lds liberal It sounds to me that you are just playing the fence and
waiting to go with whichever is the most popular belief. Fair weather sailing is
what I call that. The church teaches that our distant grandparents werent fish
or monkeys Bill Nye believes that they are. But social evolution is progression.
@Twin Lights 8:18 a.m. Feb. 5, 2014The "war" between science
and religion is phony. Science is the how. Religion is the why.-----------------Agreed, with one addition. Religion is not only
the why, it also teaches the "who made it happen."
I think Occam's razor applies here. The simplest explanation is we
don't know all the answers to our own creation because we are having to
discover them from the inside out with what is a very limited set of tools, our
brain and our instruments. As brilliant as our brains appear in
comparison to other cognitive beings they are really quite simple and mysterious
at the same time. Again the simplest answer is if we were nothing
before and nothing afterwards you would expect the exact confusion we find.
Nobody to come forward and tell us the truth and no one to come back to correct
our errors. Just a bunch of folks making it up as we go. Some doing it with
the aid of tools of discovery and other just making up wild unfounded stuff.
Its a silly, stupid debate...we are so arrogant.
It has been about 6000 years since the Fall, but the time involved in the
Creation was probably far longer - likely billions of years. However, the fact
that organic evolution depends upon successive generations of mortal organisms
does directly contradict the Scriptural assertion that there was no death before
the Fall. I personally do not believe that God used evolution as the mechanism
of Creation, but only as a mechanism of adaptation after the Fall. The global
flood of Noah provides an alternative explanation for the fossil record.
Radiometric dating assumes a steady state environment long into the past, but
that is only an assumption, not a provable fact. Both the Fall and the Flood
suggest major environmental upheavals within historic time.
RE: play by the rules. “If evolution is true then why in the world are
the apes not putting clothes on in the morning.”The sense of
sin brought with it the sense that life could not now go on just as it had
before; that sin meant that there was a necessity to cover nakedness.they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed”
(Genesis 2:25). After Adam had sinned. “And the eyes of them
both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves
together, and made themselves aprons” (Gen 3:7)and then,
“Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and
clothed them”, it is evident that the purpose of clothes was to cover,
even though there was at this stage only Adam and Eve. This is why
naturism, as it is called, or nudism, is a denial of the fall of man. It exists
among people who don’t believe man is fallen. The principle purpose of
clothing, then, is a covering of nakedness.
@joe5Antoine Lavoisier died before Joseph Smith was born.However, I see the choice between Science and Religion as a false choice.
Truth is truth, regardless of the source. Nothing from the Church
has said evolution could not have happened. Nothing in evolution claims there
could not have been a Higher Power directing it, or setting it in motion. One
side has nothing to fear about the other as long as both are seeking the truth.
It's ridiculous to have a debate when no common ground exists -- not even
an agreement on the basic scientific method. "I'm an apple."
"No, I think you're an orange." "I have evidence." "I
don't believe in your evidence." "I don't believe in your
opinion, which defies evidence."It's like the old,
"I'm rubber, you're glue" thing. Waste of time.
@John TScranton, PAIn the end, these debates are not much good
for either side if this issue. Mr. Nye apparently has inside information that
there is no God, anywhere, in the entire universe. ====== For crying out loud, Why is it anytime someone studies Science - that
automatically makes them an Atheist?Bill Nye did not argue the
existence of "God", but rather Evolution.I for one
believe in God, ANDin Evolution.======And I
wish to 2nd the comment made by; One of a FewLayton, UT3:14 p.m. Feb. 5, 2014If you don't believe in science, stay away from hospitals, never fly on an airplane, refuse to take
medicine, quit driving your car, use a candle instead of lights, get rid of you computer and TVs, grow your own sheep, weave your
own wool, grow your own food, and dig your own well.It's always nice to slam Science, until you benefit from it.
I believe the two go together. If you read Genesis 1, the creation was set out
in a particular order and a time period (not necessarily a day as we know it)
was applied. In Genesis 2 the creation story is set out again but in a
different order and with no specific time period such as a day applied. Why
would this be? Was this merely repetition for repetition's sake albeit in
a different order? I think not. I believe this shows us that Genesis 1 records
the "planning" phase where everything was created in spiritual terms, eg
blueprints, models or designs, and Genesis 2 was the actual physical creation
which possibly took much longer and more required extensive processes. The only
problem I see is choosing to ignore the differences between the two accounts in
the Bible and trying to apply the time period spelled out in Genesis 1 to what I
believe to be the account of the Physical creation in Genesis 2.
They called their labors the 1st day, 2nd day...etc. They didn't say it
took a day to do it. They said there was a 1st period of creation, a second
period and so on. Monkey's don't wear suits because they didn't
evolve to. Monkey's are doing what monkey's evolved to do. If you
don't believe in science, I suggest you stay away from the hospital. Most
everything they do is based on theories of biological evolution. Funny how it
isn't true but it sure works well if you have the bug.
Faith is not something you debate because the carnal mind rejects faith. I will
say however that the best physical proof of creation is Mathematics. The
mathematical probability that the universe exploded into a perfect ordered
system is essentially zero. Every thing is ordered and perfect in its design
from the life sustaining distance of the earth to the sun to micro-organisms
that create our ecosystem. As an electrical engineer I spent nearly three full
years taking nothing but math and I can tell you that some of those courses
involved predicting probability based on physical models. When a number gets so
close to zero it is essentially zero and that is the probability of having
organized and perfect design result from an unorganized chaotic explosion.
Darwin observed and created theories ...not laws. People tend to confuse the
two. Laws are proven but theories are just unproven ideas. Theories disappear as
more knowledge is gained even as the flat earth theory disappeared for good when
the first satellite circled the earth and took photos. Opinions don't
determine truth - absolute truth exists in spite of opinion.
The Bible, which is considered to be the authority on the universe's and
man's beginnings, is astonishingly vague in its account. On top of that, we
rely upon a translation of that vagueness into whatever language we speak. It
describes the creation and the placement of man on earth. That's it. No
details are given other than the breath of life and using a rib to create woman,
which are metaphors. The Mormon account is no clearer. This requires
considerable faith and interpretation, whereas scientists rely on neither. Where
I think the gulf exists is that scientists are allowed to make claims without
dispute, but creationists are not allowed the same consideration. Some might say
they can't both be correct. I say both ARE correct. I say God created the
heavens and earth, and He did it precisely as the scientists say it was done.
It's sad that those who are so dedicated to finding the truth cannot
consider that possibility.
These people are wasting time.Evolution is impossible, since we have no
proof in real time.Creation as interpreted by men is impossible, since we
have no proof in real time.We learn that god can change times and
seasons.We also read : And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young
ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox (II NE
21)Now that cannot be proven in real time either.So keep
guessing. Well done.God is the ultimate scientist and the real
doctor of all professions.If he can call it a day, we need not suppose it
was our day.If he can move the waters, we need not think that Noah was
without logic.This debate is good for fighting religion, but the
real issue is what do God's children gain from all of this ?We
left our alien habitate long time ago, now we are stuck in the middle of
confusion.Bring us some frequency, some prayer, some answers to solve our
daily problems.Christ is the light of the world, thus we may evolve to
some intelligent beings.
"After Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, the earth was moved from
this center of 'creation' out into it's present location on a
spiraling pinwheel from the galactic center with a dust cloud 'veil'
obscuring our view of the celestialized exalted planets near Kolob."Haha. Wow. Mormon ideas give scientoligist's ideas a run for their
someone earlier pointed out that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. TylerD
might be interested to investigate who first pointed out that concept. I believe
you will find it was Joseph Smith in D&C 93.As a lover of LDS
doctrine, I have a couple of issues with evolutionary theory in regard to man.
Primarily, I cannot accept that the sealing powers bind us to Adam whose father
was a beast. Twice in the scriptures (Luke and Moses), Christ's lineage is
traced through Adam to God.
How about this: The universe was created by God using the Big Bang. So, both are
correct. As to the question of the age, there is nothing in the Bible or any
other writing that says how long Adam/Eve were in the garden or what took place
outside. So, the Bible is correct, but only describes one small segment of
history. Adam/Eve could have been in the garden, protected/quarantined, for many
millions of years while evolution was going on all around them on the outside.
When they emerged, they viewed the world as it was at that time, knowing nothing
of time or events while inside, or at least, Moses didn't see fit to write
about it.Hard core creationists seem to ignore the fact that God was
the first scientist, and there has to be a scientific explanation for our
current physical state, both biologically and geologically. So, when someone
says God created the universe/earth, ask them how He did it. Ironically,
scientist know the answer to that question better than some creationists.
Although many posting don't believe in God in general or the Bible in
particular, I do find it interesting that in LDS theology in the Pearl of Great
Price there are passages said to have come from either Moses or Abraham that
talk of worlds without number having been created by God. Further in LDS
theology it is claimed that God has put multitudes of people on other worlds,
not just here on Earth. Pretty profound considering it has been only recently
that science/astronomy has discovered the existance of planets orbiting around
stars (suns). And the Pearl of Great Price was written a long time ago.
@brokenclay – “You can't expect methodological naturalism, with
an empirical epistemology, to tell us much of anything about what may be beyond
the natural realm…”You raise some excellent points.You’re correct to point out that science maintains an unquestioned
naturalist/materialist epistemology which is probably necessary to “do
science” but is no doubt limiting in religion/philosophy.That
said, we’re still left without an objective criteria for deciding issues
of metaphysics, which is why many scientists see it as pointless or even
fantasy.As far as religions making accurate speculations about the
nature of the Universe I think the East far surpassed any of the Western
religions. The degree to which, for example, early Buddhist/Taoist thought
parallels modern physics is uncanny.@Twin Lights – “The
large universe model filled with endless worlds envisioned in the Pearl of Great
Price was certainly not in keeping with science when I was growing up.”That is interesting but it doesn’t nullify my point since until
science made conclusions based on evidence and testable hypotheses it had not
yet provided an explanation (the speculations of Aristotle, et al
notwithstanding).Thank you both…
I'm a believer, but good grief, let science have it's due. I cannot
argue with Nye's enthusiasm for finding out the next new thing and to keep
seeking. I believe God created the heavens and the Earth, but we don't have
scriptural details on how it was done. On the other hand, when some scientists
think they can disprove the existence of God, that's science going to the
extreme. My bottom line is that I don't know. I wasn't there at the
creation. I believe someday we'll all find out and won't it be fun to
Tyler D,The large universe model filled with endless worlds
envisioned in the Pearl of Great Price was certainly not in keeping with science
when I was growing up. Now it is.
Tyler -- "The far more relevant question is, by what methods do we expect to
find the answers?"This is the correct question, and as is your
norm, respectfully and fairly stated. The question cuts both ways. And it's
not just different methodologies, it's different epistemologies. You
can't expect methodological naturalism, with an empirical epistemology, to
tell us much of anything about what may be beyond the natural realm-- the
"super" natural.It's also worth pointing out that
science excels in inductive observation, but is notoriously bankrupt when it
comes to deductive matters. In other words, the scientist makes a poor
philosopher. This is where the new atheism has gone awry(esp. Richard Dawkins
and Sam Harris).But Tyler, even if it wasn't religion that
changed science's mind on the Big Bang, surely you must admit that it was
pretty impressive for the Judeo-Christian tradition to maintain creation ex
nihilo against all the detractors of history-- Ancient Near Eastern culture,
Greco-Roman philosophy, science up until the 1920s, Mormonism, etc.
In the end, these debates are not much good for either side if this issue. Mr.
Nye apparently has inside information that there is no God, anywhere, in the
entire universe. That gives him a strategic advantage over we Christians, who
must settle for mere faith in the Bible that God did in fact create the
universe, and everything in it. Exactly how He did that, or how long it may have
taken according to our earthly timetable, is irrelevant. Mr. Nye has done the
world a favor by simply eliminating even the possibility of the existence of any
other explanation for how everything and everyone came into being. How
As a Mormon, I don't have a problem with the age of the Earth or the
Universe. If God is Eternal as we believe, and Eternity is a very long time, we
should not be at all surprised to find the Universe appearing to be quite
old.On the other hand, consider this: When scientists search for
evidence of intelligent life in the Universe, they are usually looking for
something that stands out. The most famous example is in Carl Sagan's
science fiction story CONTACT where aliens announce their presence using radio
signals that contain sequences of prime numbers, which definitely stand out.
But think about this: even the most "ordinary" life on the Earth is
extraordinary when you think about the complexity of cells and DNA molecules.
Who's to say when we are peering out into the Universe that we aren't
witnessing the operations of intelligences far beyond our comprehension going
about their business in the most "ordinary" ways.
This debate presents a false choice. If you have an apple and someone says it
is green and another says it is yellow, then only one of them can be right. But
they can also BOTH be wrong: The apple might by red.Same thing here.
The "young earth theory" is based on a myopic reading of scripture that
doesn't withstand scrutiny--even theologically. But that doesn't mean
that the theory of spontaneous generation--that life just happened and is one
huge cosmic accident--is correct, either. Clear-eyed scientists recognize it
also doesn't withstand scrutiny, at least not in the sense that life could
have originated on our planet of its own accord. (Which has renowned
evolutionists like Richard Dawkins theorizing that life was seeded by higher
intelligences--just don't call those higher intelligences
"God.")Yes, observable phenomena like natural selection and
genetic mutation were initially seen as evidence favoring spontaneous
generation. The moon's orbit was initially seen as evidence favoring
Newtonian gravity. That theory also turned out to be false. That doesn't
mean that the observable phenomena aren't happening; just that we need a
better explanation for why they happen.
The entire basis of the "debate" is bogus from the start. The event
would have been a legitimate debate if it had included at Scripture scholar.
Virtually all those whose life is devoted to the accurate translation and
understanding of the Bible would be able to debunk the entire basis of the
debate held yesterday...the Bible was never written as an account of historical
events. Creation stories have a long tradition from many cultures whose basis
was the attempt of primitive people to understand the world that they lived in.
Even those steeped in ancient languages and cultures can accept the Bible as the
inspired word of God, but not ever hold it out as a historical account of what
happened. Now that the Nye-Ham debate is history let's have a
rematch of the Creationists vs. Biblical Scholars and then lets see how well
their claims stand up.
In the nuclear arena matter is not destroyed, it is converted to energy and
reduced to its parts. When I was in elementary school they had determined atoms
were made up of parts, protons, neutrons, and electrons. Since that era we
learn of all kind of particles which make up the protons, neutrons, and
electrons. And these particles are made up of other parts. The ultimate search
is to find the "God Particle" that is the basis of all particles.
@Bob A. BoheyMarlborough, MAINVHO the analogy that most
accurately describes this "debate" is: Bill Nye = Seattle
Seahawks/Ken Ham = Denver Broncos9:30 a.m. Feb. 5, 2014=========== Truth be told -- Bill Nye actually IS from
I just love when science puts an age on the universe. I am not trying to offend
but really how does science make this age guess. My understanding is the
universe covers everything and all things. Scientist say the universe is
expanding. How can the universe expand to replace what is there. If there is
something to expand into then is it not part of the universe. The expanding
universe concept is similar to the argument of saying God is all powerful, but
God can't make a rock big enough he can't move. Saying the big bang
was the creation of the universe is the same argument. The universe
is and the universe always was, and the universe always will be, their is no
edge to the universe.As one scientist said, at some point in the
universe is the God moment, and it is not the big bang, because, their had to be
time before the big bang.
If religionists stuck to matters of faith and scientists stuck to valid science,
the world would be a calmer place. It is the cross-over that diminishes each
discipline and makes them look foolish. Judaism, most Christian denominations
(Catholic, Protestant and LDS) and many Eastern faiths do not have official
proclamations on evolution other than to say it is a matter for science to
explore. If legitimate scientists would only grant the same liberality to those
of faith it would enhance their stature.
"I know of no statement by a living prophet that the earth is only 6000
years old or that the Big Bang did not happen"OK. So, here is a
related questionIf "a living prophet" did say those things,
would you accept their words as fact?This is where I have a problem
with trying to merge Religion and Science.
It has occurred to me more than once--and I have had Seminary teachers who
believed this as well--that God could use so-called evolutionary processes if He
wants to, or He could just call them premature aging processes (there are plenty
of diseases which age cells; take for example Juvenile idiopathic arthritis,
where children's immune cells look like a 90-year-old's). Just as
humans are only able to see a small percentage of the light spectrum, we are
also only able to see a small percentage of what is possible in the realm of the
universe. That is why we are told to learn to look with our spiritual eyes and
not our physical eyes only.
The debate between religion and science will continue forever. However, as
science continues to improve, theories become truth and religion becomes
smaller. Maybe science hasn't proven anything yet as the credibility of the
techniques has always been questioned, but its getting better and eventually it
will be almost perfect. While religion is bound to the limits of the Bible and
other scripture that people tend to believe. We've seen it before in
history, people died for a false beliefs which was later proven by science, like
the earth is flat or the the sun is a god. If we could fast forward the time
200-500 years, what beliefs would be different compared to your system now.
I'm sure my great grand parents that walked the plains would say the Mormon
church they sacrificed for is not the same church today. We see it all the
time, people use "God" as a crutch, if we can't explain something
than God must have wanted it that way. Is it possible we just haven't
figured it out yet and over time we will? As man continues to evolve, many of
these questions will be answered.
Hank PymGlad I was sitting down when I read that one. Now. The
reason it is a so called fundamenal law of science is "because" science
has no other answer. That is something like the equivelent of saying that one
of the fundamentle laws of religion is that God exists. And by the way, I have
heard that the destruction of matter is in fact possible in the nuclear arena,
but that is just something I've heard, no substantiation for you, but
I'll look it up.
If you believe in and follow living prophets then there is absolutely no room to
believe in human evolution. If you don't, well "We claim the privilege
of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and
allow all men the same privilege, let them worship [or not worship] how, where,
or what they may." But there are clear statements by living prophets
refuting any claims to human evolution (I don't care what your BYU
professor taught you). In terms of the earth being only 6000 years
old, I know of no statement by a living prophet that the earth is only 6000
years old or that the Big Bang did not happen. Considering the Latin translation
of the bible, the creation account occurred over "periods of times"
which could have lasted millions of years for all we know (not to mention the
unmeasured time that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden). The 6000 years
figure (for those not aware) comes from the fact that it has been roughly 6000
years since the fall of Adam - not the creation of the earth.
I'm sorry I just can't take Ham seriously! I mean at his museum there
is misrepresentations of dinosaurs, there is a scene where a t-rex is friendly!
It's ridiculous! But to be perfectly frank, whatever you believe is your
business. So I guess whatever floats your boat.
It is likely true that there are many more answers and things to know about a
subject like evolution, so I don’t know why anyone would be put off by the
fact that Darwin did not explain everything – that’s like expecting
Hippocrates to explain DNA and concluding medicine is false when he
doesn’t.The far more relevant question is, by what methods do
we expect to find the answers? Religion surely has its place and I don’t
want to argue its merits other than as a means of acquiring objective knowledge
about the natural world (i.e., answers in the Bible). Two questions
I think show clearly the problem for religion is this area.1 -
Name a fact about the natural world for which we once had a religious
explanation but has now been superseded by a scientific explanation? 2 – Name a fact about the natural world for which we once had a
scientific explanation but which has now been replaced by a better religious
explanation?I hope it’s clear that the answers are
“countless” and “none” respectively…
INVHO the analogy that most accurately describes this "debate" is:
Bill Nye = Seattle Seahawks/Ken Ham = Denver Broncos
I was raised as a young earth creationist (YEC). I didn't question the
veracity of my view until part way through my bachelor's degree (as an
aside, it was the issue of supernovae that really started my journey away from
YEC).While intriguing, I'm not sure that I can accept Norman
Geisler's day-age theory, either. Some form of the literary framework
theory seems to best represent what Genesis is trying to say. When I read
Genesis in a historical-grammatical manner (i.e., literally), I don't think
YEC is a viable option. YEC does not possess an adequate grasp of ancient
Semitic literature, rendering their position, ironically, non-literal.I do wish that this wasn't an issue worth fighting each other about in
Christianity. Many of the early Fundamentalist pillars had no issue with an old
earth, or even with evolution (check out the article in The Fundamentals).Lamentably, the reason why science today is largely atheistic is because
of the withdrawal of Christians clinging to a YEC viewpoint.And even
more troubling, how many Christians lost faith over a non-issue made an issue by
their own leadership?
It is wonderful to have someone already to have done your thinking for you, your
brain if thus free to think about more important things. By not having to
reinvent the wheel, today's engineer can spend his time on how to make a
better automobile. Only thing is, you have to be careful to pick
the right thinker for you to copy. It seems obvious by current experience that
the inventor of the wheel had the reduction of work as his motive. Such is not
so for the creationist, for the veil of death prevents living people from
validating the truth or false of creationism. If we would judge
the creationist, we can only use the here and now actions to determine his
motivation. I think the motive of creationism is to support religion in the
control of people. And that the root motivation is money.
BYU students do learn the theory of evolution in their biology courses. In
fact, there is an entire course devoted to the subject taught by the biology
department. Official, doctrinal statements by the First Presidency of the LDS
church are contained in the BYU Packet which was created at the behest of BYU
President Rex Lee 20 years ago. It can be found on-line by doing a google
search using byu evolution packet as a query. Regarding the theory itself and
the evidence in support of it there has been assertion made here that very few
transitional forms linking species have been found. This assertion is not true.
Thousands of transitional forms have been identified, including many associated
with humans. Finally, I would like to add that there are several billions of
apes who do, thankfully, put on their clothes each morning, whilst a great many
others happily go about their business without the benefit of such.
Blue,I appreciate your question. There is a book by Merrill J
Bateman, past President of BYU and emeritus General Authority called
"Learning In The Light of Truth." It's a compilation of his
addresses to students and faculty of BYU during his tenure. It explains the
relationship of secular and spiritual education not the differences we just read
about in the debate with Nye and Ham. In specific answer to your
first three questions, I think i'm safe in plainly saying NO. To the fourth
question, who knows?
Liar Level:ACTIVISTBillions of Christians do not actually
believe the Earth is only 6,000 yo. Some few do but most look at that
portion of the OT as figurative.
As has been pointed out, there is a distinct dividing line between religion and
science that when obeyed, the so-called conflicts go away. Science is only
capable of discussing the observable, the testable. Religion is only capable of
discussing the divine, the supernatural, the philosophical. When either tries
to cross the line, it causes problems.Creationists cross the line
when they use the Bible as a science text. Scientists like the late Carl Sagan
cross the line when they say that science implies there is no God. Both try to
take their respective fields into areas they are not capable of handling.Young-earth creationists' fundamental problem is their literal
interpretation of the Bible's printed words. The word "day" was
mistranslated from the Hebrew word for "time." In other words, the
premise of their entire ideology is flawed. For any text, translation and the
passage of centuries are tricky things that all would be wise to take into
account.By the way, "random" is a statistical term that has
nothing to do with causes. It is often misinterpreted to mean something that
happened for no reason.
to happy2bhere...1 of the fundamentals laws of science is
"Matter is neither created nor destroyed"
to iron&claySo, you are saying the earth moved? Really? Why not just stick with its 6000 yrs old?
The "war" between science and religion is phony. Science is the how.
Religion is the why.
I don't have the answers. Science talks about how the Earth was created.
Religion is about why. The Big Bang theory and geology are good models to
explain the things I see in certain realms. Religion applies to the realms. It
is like in physics when we talked about electrons and protons we can sometimes
talk about these things being particles with mass. At other times it is better
to talk about them as waves and not particles. The reality is too complicated
to explain and even to understand.Science is good in its place,
religion is good in its place. If I try too hard to have one fit into the other
I reach what I consider to be odd conclusions: a 6000 year old earth or there is
no God and therefore, there is no right and wrong, only convention, fashion and
Human Beings of every culture have always created some type of religon for
social and personal needs. Science and the answers it provides will never fully
satisfy a lot of us. Humans needs something spirtual, mythical for fulfillment.
Bill Nye was debating more than creationism or evolution. He was attempting to
debunk a core essence of what makes humans, human. An impossible task.
I listened to this entire debate. It was pretty weak, on both sides, to be
honest with you. Ken Hamm insisted that there is a difference between
"historical" science and "observational" science, while Bill Nye
showed all of the scientific evidence for evolution and that the earth is older
than 6,000 years. Hamm's whole argument was that the consensus of modern
science believing that the earth is millions, if not billions, of years old is a
belief, not a fact, because "you weren't there". While at the same
time Hamm teaches kids that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together, he
should be embarrassed of himself.
Until scientists can explain how something (matter) can come into existence from
space (nothing), I'll go with the supernal explanation.
@iron&clayThat is not LDS doctrine. That may be the speculation
of some LDS members, but it's not a LDS teaching. I just wanted to clarify
It's interesting to me how many on both sides of this debate try so
desperately to incarcerate God in their own little box and tell Him he
can't come out and then defend their positions as if they are the
authoritative end.Science and religion can be as compatible as one
wishes them to be and I echo eastcoastcoug's comment, "Science and
Religion are both about discovering and learning all we can and not about
setting limits or creating dogmas."My experience is that
spiritual knowledge and secular knowledge can and often do converge quite nicely
and I have no reservation expressing my Belief in God or my Faith in Jesus
Christ and the Witness of the Holy Sprit.
"If creationism is untrue then why do you bother getting dressed in the
morning. If evolution is true then why in the world are the apes not putting
clothes on in the morning."Did you even read my post?I said nothing about creationism or evolution.But, to teach that
the earth is only 6000 years old dictates that we just throw science out the
window in favor or religious teachings.Your question makes no sense.
Are you suggesting that people who believe only in evolution can not enjoy life
and find meaningful purpose?
Science is there for us to understand the process. Religion is there to help us
understand purpose. When trying to use religion to understand science you will
fail because it is not the scope of religion to understand the process of
everything. The same goes for using science to understand religion. It truly
is comparing apple to oranges. There is evidence that both supports and refutes
both sides of this argument of "where we came from." Having come to
understand science better it has helped me appreciate religion more and gain
more faith. Having gained more faith I have come to better appreciate science.
The two can co-exist. You must have an open mind to both. Throwing your hands
in the air and saying "6,000 years is it and there's nothing else"
is the wrong way to go about doing it.
As I see it, the truth of the matter was represented by neither Nye nor Ham.The Bible most certainly does NOT say that the earth was created 6000
years ago, so if that is what Ham believes then he is mistaken.And
if Bill Nye believes that the human mind is the product of random events, he is
standing on quicksand as well, for there is no reasonable evolutionary
justification for self consciousness, nor for the level of intelligence found in
humans as it far exceeds what is necessary for survival. The evolution narrative
contains many other fatal flaws.Nye and Ham are both off the mark.
I believe pretty strongly in God and the creationism. But, it doesn't take
a rocket science to know that things are old on this earth, but so what. Last
time I read the Bible or other scriptures on the matter, I noted the following:
Genesis Chapter 1 vs 28: "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be
fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it..." I never
argue about the age of the Earth, but the reality for me is that we are here to
REPLENISH or as wiki defines it: "To fill or make complete again; add a new
stock or supply to."Of course this Earth is old, how old
doesn't matter to me. Our first parents replenished something. That
requires that it was something before. What is was doesn't really matter.
The oldest writings go back about 5,000 years. If you don't express it, did
it really matter? I know Dinosaurs existed, but existing isn't that big a
deal. Subduing something is much much more. Our true history is about those who
replenished and seek to subdue this earth. There is no conflict in my mind with
A forum such as this will never increase proof of truth for either side and each
argument. It is an exercise in stroking egos more than an event to foster
sincerity with greater understanding, enlightenment, and the aquisition of
knowledge. The topics discussed will never have a resolution and is
an apples to oranges comparison of an academic nature. For science cannot
comprehend religion or diety without faith, and the inverse is true as well.
How many times does one see people from either side immersing
themselves in the doctrine and practices of the other to prove for themselves
what cannot be vicariously quantified in the least degree?In
reality, both science and religion / faith have furthered the betterment of
humankind in their own ways and degrees. Though people like to believe they are
mutually exlusive, such is an engineered pattern of contention that benefits no
one. A person could spend an entire lifetime trying to prove their cause and
disprove the other side, yet never really arrive at any sort of absolute
truth.Why not instead look for what both contribute to further the
causes of humanity over the need to assert control over the perceived opposing
Some LDS scholars and authorities teach that the earth was organized from
eternal matter near the center of our galaxy. Kolob, or the super massive
dense "black" hole is at the center of our galaxy.'Creation' took 6,000 years as measured in Kolob time. That
calculates to 2,190,000,000 years. (365 x 1,000 x 6,000).Calculated as 1
day near Kolob is 1,000 years present earth time.After Adam and Eve
partook of the forbidden fruit, the earth was moved from this center of
'creation' out into it's present location on a spiraling pinwheel
from the galactic center with a dust cloud 'veil' obscuring our view
of the celestialized exalted planets near Kolob.
Are BYU students taught that the Earth is 6,000 years old? That dinosaurs and
humans lived at the same time? That the Grand Canyon was carved in a period of
days only a few thousand years ago in Noah's flood? That the universe is
_not_ 13.7 billion years old?Seriously, I want to know.
re@ JoeBlow: If creationism is untrue then why do you bother
getting dressed in the morning. If evolution is true then why in the world are
the apes not putting clothes on in the morning. You will also note
that creationists note that matter has existed for millions and billions of
years. It is formed into intelligent design by the God of the Universe. It is
a matter of faith on whether one accepts this or not. I accept it and wish no
harm to those who do not.
I don't understand how people can't believe both theories. The earth
is millions of years old, and humans have been around for thousands of years (
more than 6,000). I'm sure there is some way that both evolution and
creationism can come together.
I have believed that evolution was the way that God populated the earth with
life. There are some serious questions about evolution that I can't
answer, however. The "Cambrian Explosion" of many different kinds of
animal phyla without any fossil record of the animals that lead to these more
complex animals was something that Darwin couldn't explain and I've
not heard of any good post Darwinian explanation for it. Also, Darwin's
evolution stressed a steady, slow evolution and the "Cambrian Explosion"
was, in geological time, rapid. Also, I can't grasp how anything as
complicated as a unicellular life form could just spontaneously develop. These
developments violate the third law of thermodynamics. In effect, if you have
organization, there must be an organizer. Intelligent design makes a lot of
Reading the news article posted by Deseret News, I feel that the writer of this
article is themselves in favor of Creationism. How can anyone take this writer
seriously, when it is very evident that they were trying very hard to back Ham
and not tell the facts as they actually are. I hope that anyone who reads this
post, have the intellect to read other posts on this topic that clearly show how
Nye blew Ham out of the water in the debate, and show that the way this article
is written, that it is without doubt, the nature of the story has conflicted
with the way the writer believes, and therefore led the writer to dumb down this
article in favor of their own religious belief.
I don't get the either-or mentality. I believe what Science tells us about
the age of the earth and evolution AND I believe God created the earth USING
evolution. To ignore what we find in Geology and Paleontology is to paint
ourselves into an indefensible corner. The Bible is not meant to be an exact
recording of the earth's physical creation just as it is not an accurate
depiction of chronological history. I believe Science and I believe
in God. I don't follow these people who say I have to choose. God is the
ultimate Scientist. We need to be open and learn all we can about Science. In my
view, Science and Religion are both about discovering and learning all we can
and not about setting limits or creating dogmas.
How about we look at theories and debate the different evidences and what merit
they have. Both have answers that we just don't know or are lacking
scientifically. Religiously we have our different views and these have answers
that require us to have faith. As far as Evolution, Why are there
virtually no connecting animals (dead or alive) or other connecting plants that
link us back together? Darwin stated we should find thousands of these linking
life forms and yet I know of only two that can be quasi connecting species if
you squint hard enough. Also the explanation of how chimps became more
intelligent and evolved to earlier homo sapiens is a shot in the dark out how we
became so sophisticated. And intelligence would tell us that a world with such
details as ours distinguish us as a planet formed by a creator not by pure
chance.There is reason to doubt the theory of evolution as having
the complete grasp of all the scientific principles that have brought about a
planet as amazing as ours.
"He believes the Earth was created 6,000 years ago by God and is told
strictly through the Bible."And when a kid with this upbringing
gets to a geology class, or science class or learns about dinosaurs do they just
come to believe that school is a waste of time?How is this sort of
religious indoctrination useful to anyone who has to compete in the real world?