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Published: Sunday, Dec. 1 2013 1:56 p.m. MST

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brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

The abstract, "Associations of sexual identity or same-sex behaviors with history of childhood sexual abuse and HIV/STI risk in the United States" on PubMed would be well worth your read. The incidence of childhood sexual abuse among non-heterosexuals was 2.9 to 12.8 times higher than in heterosexuals, depending on the demographic. This study casts a lot of doubt on the popular theory that all homosexuality is inborn, and at least tells us that homosexuality is a complex phenomenon that can have multiple causes, environmental or otherwise. It also tells us that at least some homosexuality is a response to destructive environmental experiences. But science like this is overlooked in the media's cherry-picking, similar to Contrariuserer's contrived definition of "eunuch."

Contrariusier
mid-state, TN

@brokenclay --

"...animals determines what is natural (normative) behavior"

"Natural" doesn't mean good or bad -- it simply means natural.

"be prepared to normalize homosexual rape"

We don't need to normalize homosexual rape any more than heterosexual rape -- BOTH of which are natural behaviors for nonhuman species.

"Jesus referenced homosexuals as eunuchs -- an ad hoc, biased claim made only by those with a pro-homosexual agenda."

Guess again.

Multiple references in ancient texts bear out this interpretation. Here's just one --

As Clement of Alexandria wrote 1800 years ago (he is quoting the Bible and then referring to followers of Basilides -- and yes, this is a direct quote from Clement):

"'...there are some eunuchs who are so from their birth...' And their explanation of this saying is roughly as follows: Some men from their birth, have a natural sense of repulsion from a woman..." (Stromata, III. 1.1) .

They acknowledged the meaning of this phrase **1800 years ago**.

"Check the standard lexica"

You should check them yourself.

The root of the Assyrian word for "eunuch" comes from "trusted ones" -- as in trusted around women. The root of the Greek word "eunuch" comes from "temple guard". Neither root requires physical alteration.

Contrariusier
mid-state, TN

Woops, sorry for that duplicate post!

@brokenclay --

"Associations of sexual identity..."

You should try actually reading that study before you falsely claim that it supports your point of view.

First, "childhood" was defined as any age under 18. We already know that many LGBT people are thrown out on the streets by their families before age 18, so of course they are at higher risk for sexual abuse.

Second, you are confusing cause and effect. As the study specifically reports, "CSA is not identified as causally related to individuals becoming gay/lesbian or bisexual as adults" and "In fact, previous studies have reported that many LGB adults remember being gender atypical as children and reported physical and sexual abuse at the hands of peers and family members because of this difference."

You'll have to try harder than that. Next time, be sure the study actually says what you think it does.

sharrona
layton, UT

Contrariusier, The root of the Greek word "eunuch" comes from "temple guard".
But,
The Greek Root Word (Etymology From eune (a bed) ἔχω (G2192 )Also, one naturally incapacitated for marriage begetting children one who voluntarily abstains from marriage.
MT 19:12 In context is the gift of celibacy. See 1Cor 7. Paul wished they all could be unmarried like him.

Some of his (Paul)comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction(2 Peter 3:16 NLT)

sharrona
layton, UT

Contrariusier, The root of the Greek word "eunuch" comes from "temple guard". Also,
The Greek Root Word (Etymology From eune (a bed) ἔχω (G2192 ).one naturally incapacitated for marriage begetting children one who voluntarily abstains from marriage.

MT 19:12 In context is the gift of celibacy. See 1Cor 7. Paul wished they all could be unmarried like him.
Some of his (Paul)comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction(2 Peter 3:16 NLT)

Contrariusiest
mid-state, TN

@sharrona --

Sharrona: "The Greek Root Word (Etymology From eune (a bed) ἔχω (G2192 ).one naturally incapacitated for marriage begetting children one who voluntarily abstains from marriage."

Online Etymology Dictionary: "originally "guard of the bedchamber or harem," from euno-, comb. form of eune "bed," of unknown origin, + -okhos, from stem of ekhein "to have, hold" (see scheme (n.)).

The Greek and Latin forms of the word were used to translate Hebrew saris, which sometimes meant merely "palace official," in Septuagint and Vulgate, probably without an intended comment on the qualities of bureaucrats."

I did misremember that it was "temple guard", when actually it was "bedchamber guard" or "palace official". My apologies for that.

Again -- there is nothing in the origins of these words that requires physical alteration. And we know from ancient texts (see Clement, for example) that the term was applied quite broadly.

In re Paul -- answer the question, Sharrona.

Paul believed that women were inferior to men. He supported slavery. He contradicted Jesus by teaching that nobody should ever get divorced. He taught that it was better to remain single than to marry.

Do you agree with everything Paul said?

Contrariusester
mid-state, TN

Here's a couple more interesting facts about ancient usage of the word "eunuch", from the wiki page on eunuchs.

"There is some confusion regarding eunuchs in Old Testament passages, since the Hebrew word for eunuch, saris (סריס), could also refer to other servants and officials who had not been castrated but served in similar capacities. The Egyptian royal servant Potiphar is described as a saris in Genesis 39:1, although he was married and hence unlikely to have been a eunuch. " (the word "saris" was used more than 40 times in the Old Testament)

"According to Byzantine historian Kathryn Ringrose, while the pagans of Classical Antiquity based their notions of gender in general and eunuchs in particular on physiology (the genitalia), the Byzantine Christians based them on behaviour and more specifically procreation. Hence, by Late Antiquity the term "eunuch" had come to be applied to not only castrated men, but also a wide range of men with comparable behavior, who had "chosen to withdraw from worldly activities and thus refused to procreate."

"Hijra, a Hindi and Urdu term traditionally translated into English as "eunuch", actually refers to what modern Westerners would call male-to-female transgender people and effeminate homosexuals"

brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

Contrariusester,

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll eat crow where necessary. I may have succumbed to post hoc error here. I will reference these other studies.

But concerning the eunuch issue-- the only definition for eunuch you've given that contains the word "homosexual" or the phrase (or similar), "attracted to men," is an English translation of an Indian (read, "non-Greek") text from Wikipedia, not from a lexicon of ancient Hindi vocabulary. Clement's thirdhand source doesn't say it, BDAG doesn't say it, TDNT doesn't say it, Liddell/Scott doesn't say it. BDAG, the most authoritative NT lexicon, lists Matt 19:12a as an example of impotency, without stating any specific cause (i.e., deformity, low-sperm count, etc.).

The lexica do acknowledge that the term did come to hold the meaning of certain leadership or service positions, without physical castration. How this definitively implies homosexuality is beyond me. How being "trusted around women" definitely implies homosexuality is equally cryptic.

In other words, you're making questionable, ad hoc, even anachronistic, inferences about what definitions DON'T say, rather than what they are actually saying, for propaganda purposes.

Contrariusester
mid-state, TN

@brokenclay --

"the only definition for eunuch you've given that contains the word "homosexual" or the phrase (or similar), "attracted to men,"..."

Remember, the ancients didn't even have the word "homosexual". The term wasn't even invented until the 1890s. Even the Greeks and Romans didn't use that term, even though they widely practiced homosexual behaviors. They were usually more focused on who was pitching and who was catching, rather than on the genders involved.

Further, Clement of Alexandria did use the phrase "a natural sense of repulsion from a woman", which has a pretty obvious parallel meaning. And he used it 1800 years ago. And no, that isn't "third hand" -- that was the phrase he wrote himself.

Obviously, "eunuch" didn't **always** mean homosexual. As Jesus himself stated, there were three main classes of eunuchs: those who were born eunuchs (homosexuals and those with congenital defects), made eunuchs (castrati), and chosen eunuchs (the religiously celibate). Jesus's own usage of the term proves that "eunuch" didn't always correlate with "castrated" or even "impotent" (the religiously celibate specifically gave up sex by choice, not by physical limitation).

Commodore
West Jordan, UT

Good for them.

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