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Comments about ‘Croatians vote against same-sex marriage’

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Published: Sunday, Dec. 1 2013 1:56 p.m. MST

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spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@higv
At the end of two days the problem is the same you do not get to decide for others based on your religious beliefs and there is no reliable evidence that supports our claim of a harm (unlike marring dogs and minors).

Contrariusier
mid-state, TN

@higv --

"...has always been between a man and women."

No it hasn't. Same-sex marriage has been recognized in multiple cultures at multiple times throughout history, from the Assyrians to the ancient Romans and on from there.

"Lets do away with people closely related marrying"

Incest is already illegal -- there's nothing to "do away with".

"People marrying there dog or a minor"

Already illegal -- again, nothing to "do away with".

Here's the defining principle: polygamy, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality all convey significantly increased risks of harm compared to other forms of marriage. Therefore they should remain illegal.

Gay marriage, OTOH, does NOT convey any increased risk of harm.

It's a very simple distinction.

"Could anyone picture Jesus condoning Same Gender Marriage"

Actually, Jesus specifically said that men who are "born eunuchs" (a term which included homosexuals) should not marry women (Matthew 19:12).

"People that don't think God exists I can see them not caring one way or the other"

Again -- many religious people support same-sex marriage, and many Christian denominations are already happy to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies. This is NOT a battle of religion against gay marriage.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

@higv

"So only people that agree with the devil can impose there lack of morality on people but people who are Religious have to keep there mouth shut."

I know is hard for you to conceptualize this, but, isn't it possible that SSM is the desire of two people who love each other to live according to YOUR morality and life style?

Self identified "Religious people" tend to aim for the perpetuation of a human organization that regulate their lives according to a set of beliefs.

On the other hand, self-identified "Spiritual people" tend to search for the understanding and connection with a Supreme Being/conscience and respect different ideas and life styles. They may or may not participate in a religious institution.

Spiritual people tend to love and not pass judgment. Certainly they are not afraid of what is different.

Many of us LGBT believe in a divine being and in following the dictates of our conscience. We give you the same right. About keeping your mouth shut.... that is up to you.

In Croatia the Catholic religion won the referendum but History will soon determine if Croatia won or lost as society.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: Contrarius, “Animals’ out in nature practice homosexual behaviors. Therefore homosexual behaviors are perfectly natural.”

Theologians point out that man was created superior to animals and animals and are not equal with him.

"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:26, NIV)

Man’s likeness to God and animals’ subservience to man implies that animals may have the "breath of life," nephesh in Hebrew, but not an immortal soul in the same sense as man’s
.
God prohibited the killing of man ("You shall not murder," Exodus 20:13) but not the killing of animals. Man is made in God’s image(Spiritual), so man must not kill one of his own kind. Animals do have a "soul" that survives death, it is different from man’s. It does not need redemption.

@Animals have no religion.
True, Christ died to save the souls of human beings, not animals

Charles S
Freedomville, AZ

Great job Croatia! It's fantastic to see a nation stand up to the perversion of homosexual behavior. There is nothing positive to celebrate regarding homosexuality and it is wonderful to see a nation stand up for truth and righteousness.

It's unfortunate to see states in the US lose their principles and values in the name of equality. There is nothing equal about heterosexuality and homosexuality. There is no reason to embrace homosexuality whatsoever.

I hope more nations follow Croatia and the 31 or so states in the US who have taken a moral stand and said, enough is enough.

Society has the right to say what it will or will not accept and I'm very supportive of those who stand up for what is right.

ps, God's laws stand on their own whether you believe them or not. And, no one has to give a non religious reason for objecting to homosexuality. The objection can be for whatever reason someone chooses. You don't get to frame it any other way.

Bob K
porland, OR

higv
Dietrich, ID
It does not matter what the majority of people feel about the issue, Only matters what the Lord feels about it.....

As a Personal Opinion, your statement is fine.

As a way of making laws in a so-called democracy, your way is oppressive and rude.

It comes as no surprise that the bishops in a country that is far more catholic than Utah is mormon got their way -- but we ought to note that the voter turnout was light.

As for more societies a bit more advanced than Croatia -- again, let's say Utah -- the ability of a religious group to impose laws on society ought to be nil.

Let's face it -- the only REAL objection to marriage equality is that it would give churches, such as the catholic and lds major problems in altering doctrine, when their own members and children want to marry.

There is NO defense for the fact that some children in mormon families are automatic 2nd class citizens because they were born Gay, and are deemed to not deserve the love and the religious and community acceptance that their siblings receive.

Jamescmeyer
Midwest City, USA, OK

Trying to change marriage to be a union of simply any two people has no meaning. In every place that has tried to change this, removing the purpose of marriage and procreative activity, it has only come about after a decline in the spiritual health of the nation or state, and has inevitably brought about further discrimination and intolerance against those who disagree with them.

I'm happy for the people of Croatia; they've done themselves a service many of them may not understand the full implications of yet.

1978
Salt Lake City, UT

"you do not have the right to force others to forgo their rights individual liberties"

Tell that to the Bakery Owner in New Mexico.

Contrariuserer
mid-state, TN

@sharrona --

"man was created superior to animals"

Hey -- it's you religious people who keep making the claim that homosexuality is supposedly "unnatural". If you don't actually care about nature after all, then you guys should stop bringing it up. ;-)

@Jamescmeyer --

"it has only come about after a decline in the spiritual health of the nation or state, and has inevitably brought about further discrimination and intolerance against those who disagree with them."

Really??

Please provide examples. Be specific.

In fact, same-sex marriage has been practiced across multiple cultures at multiple times throughout history.

In the most recent years, gay marriage has been a success in multiple other countries like Canada and the Scandinavian region.

In ancient times, the Romans had gay marriages for roughly 1000 years.

Please tell us exactly which cultures have experienced this supposed "further discrimination and intolerance".

Contrariuserer
mid-state, TN

@higv --

"...has always been between a man and women."

No it hasn't. Same-sex marriage has been recognized in multiple cultures at multiple times throughout history, from the Assyrians to the ancient Romans and on from there.

"Lets do away with people closely related marrying"

Incest is already illegal -- there's nothing to "do away with".

"People marrying there dog or a minor"

Already illegal -- again, nothing to "do away with".

Here's the defining issue: polygamy, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality all convey significantly increased risks of harm compared to other forms of marriage. Therefore they should remain illegal.

Gay marriage, OTOH, does NOT convey any increased risk of harm.

It's a very simple distinction.

"Could anyone picture Jesus condoning Same Gender Marriage"

Actually, Jesus specifically said that men who are "born eunuchs" (a term which included homosexuals) should not marry women (Matthew 19:12).

"People that don't think God exists I can see them not caring one way or the other"

Again -- many religious people support same-sex marriage, and many Christian denominations are already happy to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies. This is NOT a battle of religion against gay marriage.

Coach Biff
Lehi, UT

But, I thought Europe was so much more progressive than us backward Americans. Whoda thunk?

Coach Biff
Lehi, UT

No, Contrarius, this is a battle of progressives attempting to redefine the institution of marriage. It is done with scorn, half truthes, demonizing and out and out lies. You want a non religious context? Contact the CDC and explain away the fact that the average homosexual male will live 20 years less than I will. Explain away the dirty little secret of homesexual partner abuse. Most of us don't accept the caricatures that you and your ilk try to paint with such broad strokes. Most homosexual couples aren't like the ones on TV. And those who oppose it aren't hate mongers you try to make us into. That is where the battle is being fought.

Utes Fan
Salt Lake City, UT

@Contrarius

"Many nonhuman animals out in nature practice homosexual behaviors."

--------
Of all the arguments in favor of homosexual behavior, the argument that "the animals do it" seems to be the most ridiculous of them all.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Contrarius:

The few examples of homosexual "behavior" in animals are based on an expression of dominance (rhesus monkeys) or protection of the young (some birds). Animals lack cognitive thought and self-awareness, so they cannot make a choice. To company human to animals is disengenuous.

I struggled with same-sex attraction as a youth. I did not act out with another person, and over time as I fought against those desires and brought my will in line with God's, I changed. I do not have those attractions anymore. There are thousands and thousands of men and women who have done the same thing. Yet the media refuse to report this; choosing instead to "celebrate" immorality.

God and His Word do not change. That society is moving further from God only illustrates more clearly that we are moving closer to the prophesies in scripture.

Contrariuserer
mid-state, TN

@Coach Biff --

"Contact the CDC and explain away the fact that the average homosexual male will live 20 years less than I will."

You are confusing marriage with promiscuity and depression.

LGBT individuals are 4-5 times more likely to commit suicide than straight people -- in large part because of institutionalized homophobia telling them that they are less worthy than everyone else.

And disease transmission caused by promiscuity causes a lot of early deaths as well.

BUT -- huge BUT -- marriage encourages monogamy, thereby DECREASING disease transmission. Marriage also encourages stable and happy family households, which decreases depression and provides a stable support network.

Therefore, it's easy to see that gay marriage actually DECREASES the risk of harm -- through several different mechanisms.

"Explain away the dirty little secret of homesexual partner abuse. "

What "dirty little secret"?? Multiple studies have confirmed that intimate partner abuse amongst gay couples occurs at roughly the same rate as amongst straight couples.

If you believe otherwise, please provide some evidence. Be specific.

"your ilk"

My "ilk" is made up of scientists and other logical, factual thinkers. I'm very happy with my "ilk", thanks. ;-)

sharrona
layton, UT

@Contrariuserer ,keep making the claim that homosexuality is supposedly "unnatural".VS,

The Greek for "natural function",*“natural” phusikan, 1) produced by nature, inborn, 2) agreeable to nature.

RE: In ancient times, the Romans had gay,

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women Exchanged the *natural function for that which is UNnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error," (Rom. 1:26-27, NASB).

This letter is from Paul, Jesus Christ’s slave, Chosen(Called by God) to be a missionary,…(Romans 1:1)

Saint Peter,” Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (2 Peter 3:15)
What’s your view on Saint Paul?

(Matthew 19:12)in context,The gift of celibacy, People totally devoted to God, Eg.. Nuns, Paul, “I wish that all men were like I am [unmarried}.

Contrariuserer
mid-state, TN

@Utes Fan --

"..."the animals do it" seems to be the most ridiculous..."

If it's ridiculous, then why do religious folks bother to continually -- and loudly -- proclaim that homosexuality is unnatural? It clearly isn't. That doesn't make it good or bad -- but it does destroy one argument that gets trotted out over and over.

@RedWings --

"The few examples of homosexual "behavior" in animals..."

You're completely wrong there. In fact, as one researcher has stated, "No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has **not** been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all..."

"God and His Word do not change. "

Of course God's word changes. Mormons believe in continuous revelation, remember?

@sharrona --

Sorry, but the points of your posts are often very difficult to understand.

You appear to be agreeing with me that homosexuality is natural. Thanks for that.

"This letter is from Paul"

Right. Paul -- the same guy who supported slavery, thought women are inferior to men, believed that nobody should ever get divorced, and taught that it was better to remain single than to marry.

Do you agree with everything Paul said?

Inis Magrath
Fort Kent Mills, ME

As an EU nation, Croatia will eventually have to accept the rulings of the EU court which will no doubt rule that LGBT people cannot be denied their right to marry. Same will happen here in the USA because the Supreme Court will also hold that LGBT Americans likewise cannot be denied their right to marry a person of the same sex.

These civil rights advances are inevitable and obvious to any serious legal analyst. Any comments to the contrary are irrelevant, including those that reference God because religion is not an admissible argument in American courts.

brokenclay
Tempe, AZ

If homosexuality in animals determines what is natural (normative) behavior, then we had better be prepared to normalize homosexual rape-- the establishment of dominance among males, which accounts for a lot of homosexual behavior among animals (including, in the past, among humans. Incidentally, this behavior also occurred in human antiquity, so that lends further support for homosexual rape being normative, apparently).

Jesus referenced homosexuals as eunuchs-- an ad hoc, biased claim made only by those with a pro-homosexual agenda. Etymological and exegetical fallacies will not advance your cause. Check the standard lexica, many of which that are written by critical scholars without a moral agenda.

Contrarius
mid-state, TN

@brokenclay --

"...animals determines what is natural (normative) behavior"

"Natural" doesn't mean good or bad -- it simply means natural.

"be prepared to normalize homosexual rape"

We don't need to normalize homosexual rape any more than heterosexual rape -- BOTH of which are natural behaviors for nonhuman species.

"Jesus referenced homosexuals as eunuchs -- an ad hoc, biased claim made only by those with a pro-homosexual agenda."

Guess again.

Multiple references in ancient texts bear out this interpretation. Here's just one --

As Clement of Alexandria wrote 1800 years ago (he is quoting the Bible and then referring to followers of Basilides -- and yes, this is a direct quote from Clement):

"'...there are some eunuchs who are so from their birth...' And their explanation of this saying is roughly as follows: Some men from their birth, have a natural sense of repulsion from a woman..." (Stromata, III. 1.1) .

They acknowledged the meaning of this phrase **1800 years ago**.

"Check the standard lexica"

You should check them yourself.

The root of the Assyrian word for "eunuch" comes from "trusted ones" -- as in trusted around women. The root of the Greek word "eunuch" comes from "temple guard". Neither root requires physical alteration.

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