@ocd4life -- sorry for my delay in responding!"Sodom and
Gomorrah's destruction due to their sexual perversion. "Sodom and Gomorrah was more about inhospitality and arrogance than "sexual
perversion.""Behold, this was the guilt of your sister
Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but
she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed
abominations before Me." (Ezekiel 16:49-50)Paul was the only
person in the NT to condemn homosexuality. He also supported slavery, thought
women were inferior to men, taught that it was better to remain single than to
marry, and contradicted Jesus by teaching that nobody should ever get divorced
-- even though Jesus himself said that divorce was acceptable in cases of
infidelity.Do you agree with everything Paul said?
@donn -- Apologies for my delay in responding!"Yes, but when I
was born again I did not receive that gift."Really?? I'm
surprised. In previous postings, IIRC, you have told us that marrying is one of
God's commandments. Is it, or isn't it?"That isn't the Bible. Wrong,"Nope. Right. That quote
you keep posting didn't come from the Bible. Where did it come from?"Catholic Priests,Nuns and Paul have the gift of celibacy."That's not what I asked.Is marriage one of God's
commandments, or is it not? A simple yes or no answer would be nice.If marriage is one of God's commandments, then how could Paul say that it
is better to remain single? Was he speaking the word of God?And you
still have never answered other questions about Paul, either. If
Paul was a prophet of God, then how could he disagree with Jesus? Paul said that
one should never divorce, but Jesus said divorce was okay in cases of
adultery.Paul also said that women were inferior to men, and he
supported slavery. Are these the words of God?
The actual term "homosexual" was not invented until the late
1800's, even though the practice has been in existence for thousands of
years.In Genesis Chapters 18 and 19, we witness the account of Sodom and
Gomorrah's destruction due to their sexual perversion. The sin of
homosexuality was so offensive to God that He annihilated both cities and
everyone in them.Genesis 2:21-25Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 "Blood
guiltiness" means "their blood will be on their own heads" God
tells us that He is unchanging. He is the same, "I the LORD do not
change."Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18:"Do not think that I
have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them
but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not
the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear
from the Law until everything is accomplished."Romans 1:26-271
Corinthians 6:9 Jude 1:7-10
RE: Contrariusester, That isn't the Bible. Wrong, General revelation
is the revelation that God gives to all people, sinner or saint, in creation.
The created order clearly and loudly tells all men about God’s power and
divine nature (1:20).But though all men clearly know there is a God, they
do not honor or give thanks to Him (1:21). The fall into sin has caused mankind
to ignore and deny their Creator. Sin has affected our minds and causes our
thinking to become futile apart from Christ. This effect of sin upon our minds
is known in theology as the “noetic effects of sin.”The
fall into sin has destroyed our capacity to reason. It is true that the
unredeemed mind will ultimately lead a person into futility. However, though our
minds have been affected by sin, they have not been destroyed. Unbelievers still
find truth quite often and can attain a breadth of knowledge in various areas.
Scripture presents logical arguments@marrying is one of God's
commandments? You mis-understand my point. E,g. Catholic Priests , Nuns
and Paul have the gift of celibacy.
Contrariusester, That is correct. Paul taught that it was better to remain
single than to marry. Do you agree with him?” Yes, but when I
was born again I did not receive that gift.The Bible does speak of
celibacy as a gift, it is not listed with the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12;
Roman 12). Singleness is a gift that God gives everyone, at least temporarily.
For some, the gift of singleness is permanent; for others, God takes that gift
away and gives the gift of marriage in its place. The Bible Encourages
those who are celibate in Christian service that they are an important part of
God’s family.” but such who had such defects in nature that
they were impotent, unfit for, and unable to perform the duties of a marriage
state; who, as some are born without hands or feet, these were born
“without proper and perfect organs for generation.” Not
normal human nature or behavior because of the fall.
@donn --"Eunucks which were so born from their mother's
womb"That is correct. Jesus specifically said that people who
were "born eunuchs" (which, btw, includes homosexuals), people who were
made eunuchs (IOW, castrati), and people who chose to live as eunuchs (IOW,
celibate priests), should not marry women.Which sort of puts paid to
all those church leaders who have told gay men to get married to nice girls over
the years.... ;-)As Clement of Alexandria wrote 1800 years ago (he
is quoting the Bible and then referring to followers of Basilides -- and yes,
this is a direct quote from Clement): "'...there are some
eunuchs who are so from their birth...' And their explanation of this
saying is roughly as follows: Some men from their birth, have a natural sense of
repulsion from a woman..." (Stromata, III. 1.1) . They
acknowledged the meaning of this phrase 1800 years ago."(Paul)But I wish everyone were single"That is correct.
Paul taught that it was better to remain single than to marry. Do
you agree with him?
Contrariusester, of course they would encourage reproductive unions. Not always E.g.., Eunucks which were so born from their mother's womb;
meaning, not such who, through a natural temper and inclination of mind,
“could easily abstain from marriage, and chose to live single;” but
such who had such defects in nature that they were impotent, unfit for, and
unable to perform the duties of a marriage state; who, as some are born without
hands or feet, these were born without proper and perfect organs of generation.
E.g.. . The disciples said to him,. it is better not to marry. (Paul)But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a
special gift from God, of one kind or another. So I say to those who
aren’t married and to widows—it’s better to stay unmarried,
just as I am. (1cor 7 7-8) and v 34 and his interests are divided. An
unmarried woman(nuns) or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her
aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit.
@donn --"But that certainly could not be used as evidence that
He condoned the practice."And I never said that he did."For instance, where does Jesus explicitly state that bestiality is wrong?
Where are the “words in red” that specifically condemn pedophilia?
"These are easy. We are told many times throughout the Bible to
do no harm and to love each other as we love ourselves. Obviously, both
bestiality and pedophilia do harm and are therefore against biblical
teachings."Jesus did,in fact, speak against
homosexuality."Nope."On numerous occasions,
Jesus condemned the sins of adultery"Which are condemnations of
ANY sex outside of marriage -- not homosexuality in particular.And
yet tons and tons of "Good Christians" have extramarital sex every day,
all without fear of being thrown out of their churches."Jesus
then proceeded to define exactly what God views as a morally permissible
marriage."Nope. He assumed a man/woman marriage, because
that's what they had in that society. Remember -- no reproductive
technology, not much in the way of adoptions, of course they would encourage
@michael.jensen369 --"But the commandments He taught are just
that. Commandments. "There is no commandment that says "Thou
shalt not be homosexual".In fact, Jesus never said a single word
against homosexuality."Professing faith while picking and
choosing between God-given commandments isn't faith at all."Do you keep each and every Sabbath?Do you have any pictures of
Jesus, or even of your family, in your house? These are graven images.Do you stone your friends or acquaintances who have divorced and remarried?
They are adulterers.Do you support the death penalty? Thou shalt not
kill.Do you believe that it's better to remain single than to
marry? Paul, God's prophet, taught that it was.Do you support
slavery? Paul, God's prophet, did.Do you believe that women are
inferior to men? Paul, God's prophet, did.Do you believe that
people should never get divorced, with no exceptions? Paul, God's prophet,
did.The truth is that everyone picks and chooses. @Chris
B --" there is evidence that sometimes therapy can indeed help
change a person who says they are a homosexual."Where? Please
point out this "evidence". Be specific.
Regardless of whether or not the Pastor thinks the Church Rules are right he has
a responsibility to abide by them or step down as a Methodist Pastor. I know men
who were Roman Catholic priests that have stepped down because they could not
keep their vows of celibacy. They showed the courage of their convictions to
step down and start working towards getting the rules changed.
@michael.jensen369;"...But the commandments He taught are just
that. Commandments. Standards. "Here's what Jesus had to
say about "keeping the commandments":Luke 13:15"The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you
on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it
water?"Besides, isn't bigoted behaivor also sinful? Why
then do you participate in it?
it seems these "good Christians" have taken the job of
"judgment" away from god and given it to themselves. This says that they
know better than their god as to what is right and that god is wrong.That's gonna take some explaining if they ever get to the pearly gates.
RE: Contrariusester, esus never said a single word against homosexuality?But that certainly could not be used as evidence that He condoned the
practice.For instance, where does Jesus explicitly state that
bestiality is wrong? Where are the “words in red” that specifically
condemn pedophilia? Are we to suppose that the Son of God condoned using
crystal meth because there is not an explicit statement from Jesus’ mouth
that says “do not smoke crystal meth?” The idea that silence from
Jesus on a subject means He approved of or condoned the practice cannot be
substantiated. Jesus did,in fact, speak against homosexuality. On
numerous occasions, Jesus condemned the sins of adultery (Matthew 19:18), sexual
immorality (Matthew 19:9) and fornication (Matthew 15:19). These terms describe
any type of sexual intercourse that is not within the confines of a marriage
ordained by God. Jesus then proceeded to define exactly what God views as a
morally permissible marriage.
Well said Michael,I like how the LDS church approaches this issue,
separate what is wrong from the person doing what is wrong.Its ok to
be kind to do those doing wrong things, but wrong is still wrong. I also like
how the LDS church has resources for those looking to get with this problem.
There are many who wish to receive help and there is evidence that sometimes
therapy can indeed help change a person who says they are a homosexual. Its
great that help is available to those who want it, but its true the person must
want help in fixing their problem if they are to have success.Point
is, we should all be kind, but that doesn't mean we should support wrong
behavior. And God is against homosexual behavior.
Yet another example of an individual who thinks that judging behavior means that
we are judging people. If the bible states that homosexual behavior is
sinful.....then that means the behavior is sinful. Jesus loved and loves
everyone including people who abide in unrighteous behavior. But the
commandments He taught are just that. Commandments. Standards. He loved
everyone, but He still upheld the commandments of God. You can do both. We must
do both. Unfortunately that's almost never recognized in popular opinion
today. Professing faith while picking and choosing between God-given
commandments isn't faith at all. There is a difference between behavior and
feelings/impulses. That said I think this whole situation is pretty sad.
This is good news. Keep up the good work guys!
Christians are their own worst enemy. I read an article yesterday, written by a
faithful Christian, bemoaning the negative actions of his fellows towards
non-Christians, or those who may be Christian but whose appearance wouldn't
lead one to think it. "We have to stop the hate speech. We have
to stop treating them as second-class Christians."Amen pastor.
"The church "needs to stop judging people based on their sexual
orientation," he told jurors. "We have to stop the hate speech. We have
to stop treating them as second-class Christians.""Jesus was
a dissident.Even the word "Protestant" arose from dissenters
within the church, back in the 1500s.Schaefer is following a long
and honored tradition of standing up for his beliefs, even in the face of
condemnation by authorities.Good for Schaefer.