@ Two For Flinching,Actually, my facts are empirically supported by
empirical facts. The DN story you shared was about a survey on four narrow
issues, and did not measure political self-identification vs. educational
attainment, which is the only sure way to measure personal politics since a)
there are many more issues than those 4, c) the surveyors have their own
differing ideas on what "liberal" and "conservative" means, and
b) specific-issue survey questions are riddled with survey bias problems based
on how the questions are asked; better to just let someone use their OWN
definition of liberal/conservative, since that's what we're measuring
anyway. And by that standard, Americans are about twice as likely to identify
as conservative than liberal, and total educational attainment (yrs) is higher
for conservatives. That being said, liberals are far more likely to be high
schools dropouts or PhD holders, the extremes on both ends. I'm
glad that your experience at the U has been such an uncommon exception from the
norm, and I certainly don't know the specific political leanings of the
U's political science faculty. But I DO know the politics nationwide, and
academia is overwhelmingly liberal.
@ Voice of ReasonSome of your facts are incorrect. This very paper
published a story back on 2/27/2010 about a study that confirmed people with
college degrees are more likely to identify with a liberal political view. I currently attend the U and most, if not all, of my classes that dealt
with politics were fairly evenly split between political affiliations. I have
never had a professor that graded me based on whether I agreed with their view
or not. Professors don't care what a person's view is as long as it is
supported by facts and that they identified and defended it with well thought
out logic.Lastly, just because a professor challenges you to think
about things in a different way that doesn't mean they are trying to change
you, or that you HAVE to prescribe to that way of thinking for the rest of
forever. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea
without accepting it."
RE: Two For Flinching"I think you got this 100% wrong. The
culture of BYU, and its honor code, do not foster an atmosphere of exploring,
trying new things, and especially thinking for yourself. Standards are set for
you at BYU."Your experience attending BYU must have been quite
different from my own. The culture of BYU and it's honor code were things
I was already familiar and comfortable with. The experiences I had at BYU
certainly opened my eyes to what the world had to offer and helped me establish
my own personal goals and standards. Indeed, much of BYU's reputation
comes from those who "explored, tried new things, and thought for
"I think you got this 100% wrong."You obviously haven't
been to a typical university lately, where the political science faculty, for
example, are almost always 90%+ liberal/leftist, and do not try to hide it. The
tone in too many university classes today make it very, very clear that your
grade depends on looking at the world through a liberal/leftist lens, and
conservative thought from students is bullied, ridiculed and belittled by
professors, but only rarely actually debated on its merits in a respectful way.
I know this from personal experience.This, despite the fact that far
more Americans call themselves conservative than liberal. This, despite the
fact that conservatives have a higher average level of schooling. Conservatism
isn't some crazy, fringe philosophy in America - it's the philosophy
of more than half of Americans, and the better-educated half at that.BYU, on the other hand, has a faculty that roughly reflects American society.
About half of my professors who shared their politics were left, about half
right. THAT'S where university faculties should be, so students actually
DO learn to think for THEMSELVES by hearing BOTH sides of American politics.
Just hearing one side is indoctrination.
Not the prettiest of games, but I'll take it! It's always great to
beat BYU, but let's be honest both of these teams have to step it up to
make bowls. Byu fans will now resort to enjoying the Utes get beat by the PAC-12
powerhouses, but BYU would fair no better. Both programs have a ways to go to
get to a truly elite level.Utah has a bright future though, even if
they don't bowl this season. BYU does an amazing job with the constraints
they place on their program, they really do. But this independence isn't
helping them grow as a team and they really, really need the BIG 12 or risk
falling behind Utah for good.
"because the other liberal/secular indoctrination schools in the league were
terrified of having a religious school in their midst that actually teaches
their students to think for themselves."I think you got this
100% wrong. The culture of BYU, and its honor code, do not foster an atmosphere
of exploring, trying new things, and especially thinking for yourself. Standards
are set for you at BYU.
It's an argument because I brought up academic differences between BYU and
Utah earlier in the thread. My point was, and is, that these are schools
we're talking about, not professional sports teams, so we ought to keep
things civil.And I'm sorry, but the relatively minor technical
difference of "high research" vs. "very high research" would
never have mattered if the Pac-12 ws really motivated by academic selectiveness
and football tradition. If those were really the selection criteria, the Pac-12
would've taken BYU in a heartbeat since they have always in the past
accepted teams together as rivalry twins; Utah is the first time they refused to
do so.It's common knowledge among sports journalists that at
least some of the Pac-12 schools were dead-set against BYU mainly because of
BYU's religious affiliation, and especially the Church's recent Prop 8
opposition in California. BYU has a higher academic reputation, and
is more selective, than every school that has joined the Pac-12 since the early
1960s. I don't care about BYU being in the Pac-12, I really don't,
but I DO care about religious bigotry. THAT bothers me big-time.
RE: Voice ofReason"It wasn't research status (BYU is). It
wasn't academic rigor (BYU's better than most PAC-12 schools). It
wasn't football strength. It's a simple truth that the Pac-12 rejected
BYU because of its religious affiliation, pure and simple."Sorry
Voice ofReason, but that's just not true. BYU (high research) does NOT have
the same research status as Utah (very high research), which was a consideration
in picking teams to join the PAC. Now, it wasn't so big a deterrent that
they weren't willing to invite Oklahoma State (also high research), but
there is a difference. The U is ranked higher than BYU by almost all
rankings that deal with research. That is because they do have more research
programs and thereby more research/grant money. It doesn't matter that BYU
has several higher ranked grad programs, and their undergraduate program is more
rigorous, has higher admissions standards, and prepares students better for grad
school. Why is this even an argument on this thread?
USNWR is hardly the most accurate way to judge a university's quality, I
agree. But it IS the most widely used, for better or worse, and generally does a
passable job in showing the relative prestige of many institutions, if not with
perfect accuracy. Utah is a great school - I almost went to graduate school
there after the Y. But most programs, including graduate programs, are rated
much higher at the Y than at the U so I'm not sure where you're
getting your information, MyPerspective. Actually, BYU most
certainly is a Research University, and classified as such by the Carnegie
classification system used in higher ed. And while Utah has been better in
football than BYU in recent years, BYU has a much bigger, international fan base
with a better historical win% than many of the Pac 12. And BYU has a HIGHER
national academic USNWR rating than the Pac-12 league average by a good 25%.It wasn't research status (BYU is). It wasn't academic rigor
(BYU's better than most PAC-12 schools). It wasn't football strength.
It's a simple truth that the Pac-12 rejected BYU because of its religious
affiliation, pure and simple.
Voice of Reason (con't)If you want to wrap yourself in the
comfort of a magazine, that's your business. For me? I'll take the
invitation, which was based on the due diligence and ratification by the
Presidents and Chancellors of some of the best schools in the world, as evidence
of the academic and research excellence that is...The University of Utah.
Utah in...byu out. End of story.
Voice of ReasonI've never understood the USNWR survey results for
universities. I don't understand how they decide what to measure and I
don't understand how they measure it. Most of all, I don't understand
how they verify the responses received (unaudited = no controls). Frankly, I am
absolutely perplexed how byu can check in at #61 when their rankings among
graduate school programs are utterly pathetic. However, I do
understand that byu has no medical school, pharmacy school, hospital, or planned
school of dentistry. I also understand that byu has never been, is not now, and
never will be a research university. Further, I am certain that
when the Pac-10 Presidents and Chancellors decided to expand the conference they
DIDN'T gather around a big table, pass out the current issue of USNWR and
say..."ok fellas, let's use this magazine to decide who to invite to
our elite conference." Nope, they didn't do that. They
got in their private jets and met with University of Utah officials. They
verified what they were told and through their own investigation they determined
that Utah meets the Pac-10 academic and research profile.
What grade school teaches that 62>121? I want to make sure my kids never go
TheNun,Go ahead, enlighten us on how it's just "spin"
that BYU's #62 nationwide USNWR rating is almost exactly TWICE as good as
Utah's #121 rating. Actually, I didn't learn that at the Y - I
learned that 62>121 in grade school.But hey, those utes still
have a better football score from last night. Yeah, I wish my boys in blue had
come out on top, but if I had to choose, I'd pick a BYU degree over a BYU
football win any day.Fact: Utah was the better football team last
night.Fact: BYU is an elite academic institution with a worldwide
reputation, and Utah is a pretty good regional college that got picked for the
Pac-12 because the other liberal/secular indoctrination schools in the league
were terrified of having a religious school in their midst that actually teaches
their students to think for themselves.If you're getting the
feeling that academics is more important to me than football, then gold star for
I've read all the comments so far, and it's become obvious that some
things never change: lots of congrats from BYU fans to Utah, a couple of
gracious Utah replies, and a WHOLE LOT of vicious BYU-hating and below-the-belt
swipes that border on religious bigotry from other Ute fans. As an out-of-state
transplant who grew up on the Oregon/Oregon State rivalry, the BYU/UTAH thing
really isn't a rivalry - it's an outlet for hatred, pure and simple.
Both ways to an extent, but frankly I've always seen a LOT more coming from
Utah fans for some reason. While celebrating BYU's loss,
remember that Utah also won. I know, that's just a minor distraction from
the real Muss party over BYU's loss, but hey it's there.
S JarvisThe unfortunate loss of Williams limited BYU's run game
immensely and was the ending point of the game for BYU.-----------Nope! According to math:* Before Williams
was injured: Utah 13 BYU 3 (Utah +10)* After the injury: Utah 20 BYU
13 (Utah +7)The ending point on the game was when Utah's
defense shut down BYU's game plan by forcing Hill to become a passer.
@Steven S JarvisThe main reason Utah won last night wasn't any
of the old cliches...The unfortunate loss of Williams limited BYU's run
game immensely and was the ending point of the game for BYU. Williams was just
getting going after the D line of Utah had been pounded.-----------------What?!? In denial I see. Williams
wasn't doing any such thing nor was BYU's offense. Considering over
his last two series before he was injured he carried the ball 6 times for 3.8
yard per carry.2 yards to the BYU 305 yards to the BYU 252 yards to the Utah 149 yards to the BYU 363 yards to the Utah
352 yards to the Utah 27He averaged 4.0 yards per carry during
the game, against Virgina and Texas the two worst defenses in the nation he
averaged over 4.5+ yards per game.BYU fast and furious offense had
4.5 yards per play, Utah was 5.9.FACT: BYU ran for over 200+ yards
against #120 and #128 defense FACT: BYU played the #28 defense and
ran for 185 yards, same as Utah State 175 yards.Go UTES!!
I do NOT bleed cougar blue.
The main reason Utah won last night wasn't any of the old cliches such as
the refs or we beat ourselves. It wasn't Hill's passing either since
most of his balls were well placed or intentional throwaways. Both teams
executed their game plans cleanly. The only turnover should have been batted
down into the turf (turnonver on downs) so TO's were not a factor. Utah
won the game on two accounts. The unfortunate loss of Williams limited
BYU's run game immensely and was the ending point of the game for BYU.
Williams was just getting going after the D line of Utah had been pounded. BYU
had to CATCH the ball from that point. The Utes defenders tackled BYU receivers
nearly every instance that Hill got them the ball. Hill WAS accurate most of
the time. The Cougars just couldn't hold onto the ball.Credit
to the Utes secondary. At least 15 balls were not caught because of clean
tackles as the ball hit the receiver.I had to chuckle on that last
play. It was a PI UNTIL the player decided to tackle his defender onto him.
At Voice of Reason,Is that what you learned at the Y? Make reality
more bearable by trying to spin everything in your favor. Do not EVER face the
facts, do not EVER man up and admit any weaknesses so they can be overcome. And
most of all, do not EVER concede defeat was caused by better play from an
opponent. Do not EVER congratulate the victor, only make far fetched reaches at
trying to spin the loss as poor play by your team, and nothing to do with better
play from the Utes.Nice degree, too bad it doesn't come with
any logic or a hint of reality.
At Tommy Jefferson,Yes, I agree the refs totally were responsible
for Hill's 18-48 passing. They, also, all blew hard at the same time and
made Sorenson's FG shank to the left. And, the dang refs made Robert Anae
keep calling run plays up the middle. Worst officiating crew in America clearly
lost the game for the Cougars.
KVN is the real deal. Fun to watch him play. Game was too costly for
both teams injury wise. Hope They all are ok and come back soon.Utes
have dominated this series this century and KW has proven to be a superior
coach.BYU fans can't make up their minds about Bronco and Anae.
They have left the realm of Olympus and now are relegated to the leper colony.
...and to answer my earlier question, BYU fans flocked to the exits
with just under 2 minutes to play. They must have thought they would turn into
pumpkins if they didn't get home by midnight.
Congratulations Utah. You have earned the Beehive Boot again this year and it
is well deserved. And congratulations Kyle Wittingham for being the best coach
on the field today, again.
I don't understand with an extra week to prepare, We have the same
results.A OB that is one dimensional, and the awful play calling.
College Football = Overrated. Just a poorly run business.
@BleedblueGuess you missed the part everybody else caught that the
receiver PULLED the defender into him hoping for the call. Smart play on his
part but the refs saw right through it. It was replayed several times after the
end of the game and the No Call was the right call.
sammygSpringville, UTCongrats to the Utes. Another close game
but not enough production from Hill.Wilson will be sore for a few
days. KVN had his number.------------We have your
number, we just won your Super Bowl. The only number that matters is: 0-4.Nope, it wasn't a close game since Utah never trailed and BYU never
threatened to take the game away from Utah.
basic math for sammyg...7 > 3 7 - 3 = 4.... in a row!
Newsflash; both teams had harsh calls go against them. If you know football,
Utah dominated both lines of scrimmages. The call on Rowe was inconsistent with
how the game was being officiated. One stop there without the call and Utah has
the ball up 20-6 with under 4 minutes.
per BleedCougarBlue 9/21 4 minutes to midnightIt was a really lame
attempt @ a suplex by the byu wr on a REALLY bad pass by Taysom.
I guess Utah might be better than Texas. Bone headed move by Rowe...
otherwise we win by 14.12 days until UCLA.
Ugly game. When was the last time two teams combined for almost 900 yards of
total offense and the score was only 20-13. Both these teams stink!
Congrats to the Utes.
BleedCougarBlue:Go watch the replay. The Cougar receiver pulled the
DB on top of him. I actually give him (the WR) credit. It was a heady attempt
to draw a penalty to try to extend the game. Some call it cheating, some call
it gamesmanship. We need to take off our our blue colored glasses. BYU
didn't get it done.
sammyg"Wilson will be sore for a few days. KVN had his
number." So...tell this board what "unfinished business" KVN had
this year. Oh...and can we get a sound bite from JD Falslev,
Another Utah win makes it 4 in a row.Bet the typical BYU
"fan" was in Tulsa again today.
Did those Pac-12 refs give the ball back to BYU after taunting?
Has anyone heard a report on Williams?
I hope Williams is ok. That kid has a promising career ahead of him.To the real coug fans, good game! Always a fun one. Good luck the rest of the
In the end Congratulations from a cougar fan to our friends at the U. You are
the better team and you deserved the win. Congratulations good luck the
remainder of the season!
I'm going to miss the rivalry during the hiatus. I enjoy the
silence from the Ute-haters when we they get their annual beat down. Almost as
much as the frantic spin when they crawl back out of hiding a few weeks after.
Anae's fizzle offense gets flatter faster now that it's up paced...so
much for the Arizona connection.
re: Ute parents - me CougarI'm sorry; what color zone did byu
melt down in tonight??
Man, it's almost as if Utah is indisputably the better team, and BYU has
only won more games the past few years because they've played against much
weaker competition.Nah that doesn't make sense ;)
It is now obvious the different directions these two programs are heading.
It's a great time to be a Ute!
Business as usual. Now lets make some noise in the Pac 12.Go UTES!!
To those special individuals obsessed with hating Utah, this really has to
sting.But don't worry! We're all looking forward to the
excuses, the spin, and the hiding behind other teams who might be fortunate
enough to do what your team clearly can't.Your denial aside,
Utah absolutely owns you on the football field. Now just let that sit for the
next few years.GO UTES!!!!
God Bless America!
KVN is a stud.Hope Williams is ok.UTAH...Stay humble...continue to work hard!Go UTES!
If the Williams kid is okay, this will be a perfect night for this ute fan.
Congrats on a gritty effort BYU. Live with the memory of this for a couple of
seasons. We'll see you at res in a couple of years! What a win!
Congrats to the Utes. Another close game but not enough production from Hill.Wilson will be sore for a few days. KVN had his number.
Did the better team win? They did tonight & the 3 yrs preceding.
Who ‘likes’ the new moniker?Of course, this is dedicated
to my friends duck, too smart, worf and a few others.Utes,
congratulations on win number 3 this season. Just let it go, and focus on game
Best wishes to Jamal Williams for a speedy recovery.
The only thing that I've seen about this up paced offense that Robert Anae
drug out of Arizona is that it puts BYU in the hole earlier and still has
Anae's signature of mostly resorting to gambling with very little
imagination put into it.
4 in a row! Y seniors never taste victory over the Utes! How sweet it is!!!!!
Bragging rights for the next 3 years!Go Utes!!
Seniors get the sweep! KVN never beats his big brother! GO UTES!!!
Nice TACKLE by Utah's DB #29 on our BYU's WR #10 on the last play of
the game.That's right, t-a-c-k-l-e.No Pass
Interference?What a croc!....
@ThomasJeffersonI will admit the Utes D is a far sight better than
Texas! They are playing on Hills weakness, passing!----------DOH!
OK-- Make Bronco a Saint, put him on a mission, or better yet make him a GA but
please oh please get another coach for the BYU Football team. Their goal of
spreading the message has been lost with all of their losing.
Alum in replay booth on the Anderson holding... Flop Van Noy... Bone headed taunting by Row... but Utah still found a way to
win the game.Cheer up BYU fans. The best team lost again. I know,
know BYU hasn't lead in any game for 8 straight quarters but we lets just
ignore that fact.Sweeeeeeeep! Sweeeeeeep! Picture me waving a
broom.Lets get our TEs healthy and get ready for UCLA!!Go UTES!
Well, that's game. Why oh why can't my Cougs beat the Utes?
BYU's the more talented team overall, I truly believe that, but for some
reason BYU manages to beat themselves every time. Frustrating...but at least I
have a degree from the Y. So it's a truce for a few years: yoots get the
football win, we get the academic ratings. Seems fair, lol.
BYU fans and players are ridiculous. How about the last play the tall skinny kid
pulling the defender into him to try and draw a pass interference. Utah.....for
in a row has owned BYU in this century and last.....look at the records.
Listen church hdqtrs......Mendenhall all has to go....hill couldn't hit a
100 x 100'foot high wall from within 2 ft.......is this the best QB we
have? Olsen in high school could at least hit his recievers......why do you
kill us every year with these poor QB choices......
Tough, hard-fought game. BYU played well, but my Utes prevail.Great
Great game all around. Good luck to the Ute football team the rest of the way.
We are officially owned. Congrats Utah--Wilson is a great quarterback. Hope
Murphy is o.k.
Byu will never be worth watching while Bronco Mendenhall is the coach
Gotta hand it to the Ute receivers. They're hanging on to the ball a
little better than our guys.GO COUGARS!And.....Anae
should be run out of town. I normally don't say such things but the play
calling is awful.1st down - run up the middle2nd down - run up
the middle3rd down - run up the middle4th down - punt.To
not get a single punt off of JD Falsev's AWESOME punt return is simply
inexcusable!Pls tell me again, WHY did we fire the CFL's
leading receiver as our reciever's coach?GO COUGARS!
Credit goes to the Utes for executing better on offense and exploiting BYUs weak
passing game on defense. BYU had their chances and couldn't produce; credit
the Ute D. That being said, this might be the most inept BYU offense in recent
memory. It's going to be a long season if Hill only completes 33% of his
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
results.Albert EinsteinSame old BYU bad play calling and lousy
blocking. MENDENHALL NEEDS TO GO!!!
Red zone melt down. AGAIN
I'm all blue. But looks pretty one sided once again.
I love j. William's Mom! Hope Williams is OK! Glad he is moving hands and
Gotta hand it to the Ute receivers. They're hanging on to the ball better
than our guys.GO COUGARS!
Amen, utahcounty. Sorry to anyone if my last post seemed insensitive. Depth on
these teams is the least of my worries with injuries like what just happened to
Jamaal Williams. Best fortunes, kid.
Hopefully Williams is okay, much more important than this game.
I hope the Williams kids will be ok. This game's not that important.
I hope for the best for Williams. Neither of these teams can afford to lose any
more players.Go UTES!!
I'm sure if Dennis Erickson wanted, he could have the QB line up under
center instead of shotgun in short-yardage situations. That's my only
complaint about the offense through three and a half games. Glad I'm not a
Cougs fan in that department.
At what point do cougar fans start heading for the exits?Just blame
it on the refs and keep it par for the course.
Last time Utah played at LES the half time score was 13-10 UtahCan
you say Deja vu
Can't get too cocky, there's still a lot of game left. Go Utes!
Don't sweat Jeffersons comments!!!If we beat BYU he will insist
they are better! Just like he claimed USU was better even though we beat
them...Refs don't HOLD...an inept team does
Such a big difference, the team with the real offensive coordinator is acutally
moving the ball. I am still amazed that Anaie was brought back. Same lame
predicatable plays and an inaccurate quarterback.
What's up cougs? 13 zip. I don't don't even have to wait for
Phillips to kick. He does not miss. Love it!
ThomasJefferson is already setting up the excuses in case of a loss.The REFS did it!
Sorensen misses a chip shot FG from the mid-30s?Don't know why
(suspect it's confidence) but he is not the same kicker he was in high
Lol. Missed FG again! You all need a skier
Cougs look like they had the last week off. Utes are not a lot better but the
skier is going to win this game.Go Utes!
Crowd seems flat.In my opinion, we're missing Hadley and his
intesity on D.GO COUGARS!
Going about as expected. BYU has no offense. Sad to play this way at home in
the BIG rivalry game. Congratulations to the Utes for knowing BYU weaknesses,
Why do we INSIST on trying to run it up the middle. So far, it isn't
working.Receivers are dropping too many balls.GO
Utah winsByu losesAgain!Mark it Down