What responsibility do the people have who treated this man for mental illness.
Could they not see that he might be dangerous? As for guns our homicide rate
from guns is far lower than most countries that have gun control. Honduras has
the highest murder rate 96 per 100,000 people. The U S has 4.2.
To "Lew Scannon" changing the gun laws rather than fixing the mental
health system is like giving somebody with a brain tumor an asprin. Yes the
pain is reduced, but the problem is still there.Come back when you
want to actually address the problem and not a symptom.
@ one old man - Ogden, UT - "How about this:Before you can shoot:Must be at least 18 to buy a long gun and 21 to buy a handgun.Can’t buy a gun for anyone other than yourself.Potential buyer
can’t be under indictment for a felony, convicted of a felony, or be a
fugitive from justice.Can’t be an unlawful user of, or addicted to,
marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic or other controlled
substance."I like your recommendations but you better go talk to
the people in Colorado about that last one.Don't blame me. I
wasn't one of the fools who voted to make marijuana legal in Colorado.
Re: "It will be much easier to restrict firearms than to "fix" the
mental health system. And far less expensive."And, of course,
absolutely ineffectual, clearly illegal, and directed, not at saving lives --
which no such restriction can EVER do -- but at controlling liberals'
critics and opponents.Feckless liberal social engineers are forever
telling us how easy it would be to impose their their latest freedom-sapping
scam. Funny how they never mention how laughably, monumentally ineffective
liberal social engineering scams ALWAYS are.Maybe they just
forgot.If so, a good reminder would be to look at all the damage
their deranged "Great Society" welfare scams have done to poor and
minority families and children.
"Fix the mental health commitment system."You're
serious? I happen to know a fair bit about mental illness and its vagaries. It
is almost impossible to know when someone will tip off the edge. If we were to
lock up people who may sometime become dangerous, we would have to lock up about
20 percent of the population. It will be much easier to restrict firearms than
to "fix" the mental health system. And far less expensive.
@LDS liberal I see lots of bold claims but very few facts in your
post. First I would like to see some evidance showing that these people were
indeed taking SSRI's and that there was a causal link between a medication
reaction and their behaviors. secondly 10% of the population not 30% of the
population take SSRI's 2 to 3% of that 10% not the general population have
a severe reaction. Are there concerns with these medications and the way they
are sometimes used? Yes of course but your claims are far more reckless and
dangerous then these drugs could ever be.
In America today, with hundreds of millions of guns already out there, plus open
borders for anything to come into the country, I believe it is impossible to
ever control guns. That being said, the best way to stop these mass murderers
is to kill them quickly when they start. Had more people been armed themselves,
he might have been stopped before all those deaths and injuries happened. He
was finally killed anyway, it was just too late for some 12 people. Imagine if
one of his early victoms had been able to shoot him when it began instead of
being a sitting duck. Not a perfect solution to these gun shooting criminals,
but does anyone really think controlling guns will stop this kind of stuff? How
could you legally get guns out of American society? If you have an idea then
let's hear it. And I mean specific legal changes, not philosophy.
To "Lew Scannon" don't you find it ironic that the shooter with all
of his issues was able to get guns in a state with very restrictive gun laws,
then went into a "Gun free zone" and was met without resistance. I am
not pleased with what he did, but this should be a wakeup call to liberals that
massive restrictions and "gun free zones" don't work.We
already have laws that close the loopholes. Per Utah law, you cannot sell a gun
to a person that is restricted from gun ownership. Utah code 76-10-503
paragraph 8a states " A person may not sell, transfer, or otherwise dispose
of any firearm or dangerous weapon to any person, knowing that the recipient is
a person described in Subsection (1)(a) or (b)."The problem
isn't having enough laws, but enforcing the laws that we do have.
Re: ". . . why are [conservatives] so against reasonable
restrictions?"Because there are no reasonable restrictions.EVERY gun-control measure liberal Second Amendment deniers have proposed
would deny constitutional rights to many who should not be denied their rights.
And they all focus on controlling and significantly burdening the wrong people
-- innocent citizens. Rather than the bad guys.And EVERY liberal
gun-control measure is an admitted first step toward their ultimate goal --
disarming responsible, law-abiding Americans they believe may constitute an
impediment to forcing their agenda on America.They're not
really interested in saving lives. If they were, they'd be looking for real
solutions to violence in Chicago or LA, where all their useless "reasonable
restrictions" are already in effect. Why don't liberals
seek "reasonable restrictions" on Fourth or Fifth Amendment rights? How
about allowing police to use a limited number of camera robots or drones without
warrants? How about letting them use small rubber hoses in interrogations?"Reasonable restrictions" is merely liberal newspeak for
unconstitutional liberal control over people they don't like or disagree
@ Lew ScannonConservatives and the NRA are NOT happy that this guy
could legally buy a gun. They are very unhappy that someone
violated numerous other laws and killed people. They are very unhappy
that someone so obviously mentally ill was not declared mentally defective or
involuntarily committed.They are very unhappy that a person with a long
series of misconduct in the military was given an honorable discharge.They
are very unhappy that someone with two prior incidents of violent gun crimes was
not prosecuted for either one, and thus had no criminal record which would have
prevented purchase of a gun.They are very concerned about the high
correlation and likely causation between psychotropic medications and mass
murders.However, conservatives and the NRA are very wary that
arbitrary and capricious restrictions and definitions could be manipulated to
ban guns from people for political reasons, or as a massive disarmament scheme
by some thuggish administration. Therefore, the insistence on due process is
mandatory. Didn't vote for Obama?- must be a nut case take
away their guns... not too farfetched under this administration. Yet they are
arming terrorists in Syria. Go figure.Fix the mental health
The way I see it, the conservatives and the NRA must be pleased that the shooter
was able to so easily and legally purchase the gun he used to kill 12 innocent
people. Isn't this what their outcry against any restrictions on gun
purchases was all about? Isn't this exactly what they were hoping for? If
not, then why are they so against reasonable restrictions? To hear them
complain, you'd think that closing the loopholes in the system, like
purchases at gun shows, and creating a national gun database are one short step
from Nazi Germany. Well, this is where paranoia will get us. How many more of
these senseless massacres must we witness before we finally realize that we are
not living in 1787?
To "one old man" we already have those rules, except being dishonorably
discharged. There are many reasons why a person could be dishonorably
discharged, so that makes no sense.The NRA doesn't have any
problems with the ideas that you present.
How about this: Before you can shoot: Must be at least 18
to buy a long gun and 21 to buy a handgun. Can’t buy a gun for
anyone other than yourself. Potential buyer can’t be under
indictment for a felony, convicted of a felony, or be a fugitive from
justice. Can’t be an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana
or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic or other controlled substance.
Gun seeker is ineligible if he or she has been committed to a mental health
institution or declared mentally defective by a court. Can’t buy
a gun if dishonorably discharged. Can’t have a history of
domestic violence or been subject to a court order for harassing, stalking or
threatening someone. Application will be rejected if the person has
renounced U.S. citizenship; must be living in the U.S. legally. Must
have a valid I.D.Or would the NRA consider this too much of a
restriction of Second Amendment "rights" to go out and kill people?
I don't know, procura. As more facts become available, there might be a
lot of hay to be harvested. Here's a starter from the LA Times:"He was carrying with him the shotgun, which he had recently LEGALLY
PURCHASED from a gun store in a Virginia suburb.Officials have said
the shotgun was purchased from Sharp Shooters in Lorton, Va. The owner of the
store refused to comment and directed questions to his attorney. "How about these headlines from the New York Daily News""Washington Navy Yard shooting: Shooter allowed to buy gun despite mental
issues, Navy misconductDespite hearing voices, shooting out
someone’s tires in a 9/11-induced rage and being cited for misconduct
eight times while he was a Navy reservist, Aaron Alexis passed a federal
background check with flying colors and was able to buy the gun he used in
Monday’s massacre."This sounds like a strong and excellent
case in favor of SENSIBLE laws to provide a national database of people with
mental health and violent misdemeanors. His crimes did not rise to the level of
felonies and thus he had those flying colors.
Re: "Re: Gunman . . . was hearing voices"Seems like one of
them was Joe Biden's.He took the Vice-President's advice
to "buy a shotgun, buy a shotgun." NOT an AR-15 with a normal, 30-round
magazine, as several media outlets gleefully, but erroneously reported. Perhaps
intentionally.As Harry Reid admitted yesterday, it's going to
be hard for Second Amendment deniers to make much hay out of this tragedy.But they're trying, anyway.
I have yet to hear whether or not this guy's gun was legally purchased and
possessed.A report on TV news last night seemed to indicate that
even though he had a long and troubled history, none of it had been reported to
any kind of data base. Because of that that he had been able to legally
purchase the shotgun he used in Virginia just a few days earlier.We
need to know -- is that report correct or not.
Trolley Square shooter.Jordan River Temple shooter.LDS Genealogy
Library Shooter.Mark [Lori] Hacking shooter.David Ragsdale LDS
church parking lot shooting.Josh Powell.I could on and on and
on.All local - all taking SSRI - all murders.But then there
are the silent victims.The suicides.I personally know 4 people --
former Elder's Quorum President, classmate, worker, and a cousin --
all very good, "normal", people, feeling a little "down",
given these meds, and within 2-4 months dead from suicide. And, not
just the typical - turning the car on in the garage, drug overdose, drowning or
hanging...ALL of them very violent, Very bloody, and maximizing shock
value. [guns]Going out in a blaze of glory so to speak.Even for
those who just give up and want to end it all.Completely out of
character.BUT -- It IS common -- 2-3% of the population will
have this serious side effect.And when you have 30% of the population
taking them, you will see things like this happen.Ever wonder why
suicide rates in Utah is so high?Perhaps because SSRI medication use is
also so high.I don't blame the guns, I blame the meds.
And if these drugs skew reality, then obviously, violent video games will have a
dramatic effect on the user.Even if psychotropic drugs had no part
in this, these mass killings highlight the weaknesses of the system:1. A gun-free zone, so therefore2. Unarmed victims.Killers,
if you notice, only go where they know there will be no one to shoot back at
I will side with LDS Liberal's points. I understand what you are trying to
say, spring street, and I agree with them to a point. However, the evidence that
is ignored and out there if you do your research is that psychotropic drugs have
been the common factor in *every* mass killings and attacks in the news lately.
LDS Liberal's list above is correct. The prescription of
psychiatric drugs is an epidemic. Think about it—this is a
“science” where they declare a “chemical imbalance” for
certain behaviors and yet there is no pathology performed: lab tests, blood
tests, x-rays, etc. Yet they prescribe these drugs for what medical condition?
And when those drugs do not work, they either blame it on the patient or
prescribe more drugs. And psychiatry has such a strong hold on education and
behaviors of children that psychotropic drugs in children as young as
kindergarten age is rampant.Research and comments by psychologists,
university researchers, and current and former employees of pharmaceutical
corporations show that these drugs do not work and increase suicidal/homicidal
and violent tendencies multiple fold. They also skew reality.I agree
with LDS Liberal.
Anybody ever hear of possession by unclean spirits?
Thank you redshirt. I know it may not sound like it but I do understand your
concerns LDS Liberals concerns and share those concern with the risk associated
with the medications and that they need to be closely monitored by a
professional but these types of side effects are very rare and there is no
indication that he was taking any medications that might cause these types of
symptoms or that he was taking medications at all. Again I am not a big fan of
medications but there are times when are appropriate.
Another 'gun-free' Zone....thanks to Pres. Clinton who ban firearms
from military bases.How many more will have to die before this nonsense
Here we go again the medical profession let us down.This guy should have
been put on list the the bureauhas for restricting gun ownership. Now this
administrationWill use this as a reason for more gun control.
To "LDS Liberal" wow, how many degrees do you have. Apparently you know
about psychology than people that are trained in it. Do you think that
"spring street" should help you do your engineering?Did you
also see where Adam Lanza and Alexis both loved playing violent video games.
Why not look into that too. Maybe the problem is the violence and realism in
@LDS Liberal I am aware of the side effects my point was and still
remains that you have zero proof that this had anything to do with the side
effects of a medication and all the symptoms described are also associated with
these disorders not just medications. My concern is your alarmist comment could
actual lead to further harm if someone became spooked because of your comment
and stopped taking their medications without talking to their doctor, such an
event could have catastrophic affects on their health and possible their safety.
So, LDS Liberal, what are your suggested remedies for treating those with severe
depression as you seem to disfavor anti-depressants.
Enter CIA and MK Ultra
@spring streetSALT LAKE CITY, UTGeez, Then you should
already know that PTSD is commonly treated with SSRIs.Read the FDA
black-box warning labels.As therapist, you should know the reason they are
"required by law" to be there.Go ahead -- look it up.Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold - Columbine High School.The Virginia Tech
shooter - on an antidepressant. Kip Kinkel murdered his mother and
stepmother then shot twenty-two classmates. James Holmes opened fire in a
Colorado movie theater and killed twelve people and wounded fifty-eight.Adam Lanza Sandy Hook Elementary - 26 dead, treated with anti-depressants.The common denominator?:drugs AND an FDA required black box
warning label warning as much.You're a Doctor - you figure it
@LDS Liberal gee were do you get that anti depressants had anything
to do with it? These are also common symptoms of several mental health deceases
including PTSD, dissociative disorders and schizophrenia. As a therapist I am
not a big fan of medications but your comment is willfully ill responsible.
The Associated Press that Alexis had been suffering a host of serious mental
issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder. He also had been hearing voices
in his head, the officials said. ======= Gee, imagine
that.No surprise at all.These are all side-effects to popular