I don't think his bishop would approve of this would he?I
thought there were rules with how Mormons should dress, especially those who
have gone through the temple.Am I wrong?Maybe I just
Great story. I wouldn't have the kahunas to do something like that. Hope the daughter knows it is just as embarrassing for dad as it was for
her.Lets just not make this a common occurrence.
I love it! The question all parents should ask is how far will you go to teach
your children correct principles? It is especially difficult when cultural
standards are pulling farther away, or should I say pulling more off, from the
principles of modesty and decency.Making yourself an object lesson I think
is an incredible teaching tool.
@ChristopherB, Mormons do have standards of dress. I believe this Dad was
utilizing a unique way of driving the point home with his daughter.@wwookie, couldn't agree more.
Great story and great dad. My only question is why does she even own immodest
clothing? I know, I know...agency. Or perhaps she has her own money and buys her
own clothes, but if I had ever brought home clothes that I'd bought that
were inappropriate, my parents wouldn't have allowed me to keep them let
alone wear them! I had expectations and I knew if I were to fall short of them
it wouldn't be tolerated. That said, I understood why modesty is so
important and never felt a desire to wear immodest or inappropriate clothing.
Keith,I just want to understand.So its ok to break
standards of dress to prove a point about standards of dress?What
other things does this apply to?Is it ok to start smoking/drinking
to prove a point about smoking/drinking?What is your opinion?
This guy is "DAD OF THE YEAR" for sure. What a great way to drive the
@ Christopher BThe Savior did some rather radical things in his
ministry.The woman taken in adultery, clearing the merchants from the
temple by force, turning away hungry followers because they were looking for a
handout rather than Living Water...The Pharisees had trouble with his
teaching methods.They also followed Him around asking questions calculated
to entrap Him.
Pretty amazing dad! Sometimes when all else fails shock is an option. Chris B. Sometimes creativity in parenting is necessary to get a
kid to really think. When my mom was a teen she was told by her mom if she ever
wanted to try alcohol or smoking my grandma would buy it for her and she could
have a try at home. (This was in the generation before drugs) She didn't
need to sneak around to experiment. My mom never took her up on the offer, but
I have no doubt my grandma would have followed through had my mom asked. My wise
grandma took away the mystery and the excitement of sneaking around. This dad
put back in the face of his daughter that her choices affect others in an
unforgettable way. I doubt he'll be disfellowshipped or loose his temple
Just in case we see comments here from those who want to poke, prod, belittle,
and cajole those with whom they have issues, we should realize that they likely
have had experiences that cloud their judgment--say, in the workplace, among
their acquaintances, or even in marital relationships. What we often don't
realize is that we actually do them a disservice in responding to them, because
it provides them with the unhealthy stimulus they are seeking. If we don't
respond, they will eventually tire of that lack of stimulus, and look to instead
lift themselves out of the morass in which they find themselves. For the love
of our fellowmen, let's help them by remaining silent when they post.
I have six children and now 16 grandchildren and I know how difficult it is to
get children through the teenage years. They have lots of brains but no good
sense. I don't know if I would have done the same thing but I could have. I
certainly don't judge the father for trying. I hope his daughter has enough
brains and maturity to recognize how much his father loves her.
@Christopher BThat's a fair question. Here's my view on
it.If I take you to a basketball court and show you the exact
perfect form on a free throw, and I even make 10 in a row to prove it works, and
then leave, will you make every free throw for the rest of your life? No. But
does your inability to make every free throw make the form any less perfect? No.
The fact that you (or I) can't replicate the perfect form every time
doesn't invalidate the perfection of the form.Similarly, the
standards of the church and the gospel of Christ as a whole attempt to show us
that perfect form for lasting happiness. Neither you, nor I, nor Mr. Mackintosh
can replicate that perfect form every time, despite our best efforts.
Doesn't make the principles of the gospel any less perfect, though.The key to happiness is focusing on perfecting OUR form. When we get
caught up watching the other free throw shooters, we aren't even attempting
any shots. Our job is to cheer for the good form we see in others and refine and
perfect our own.
Christopher. Relax. It was just a simple object lesson. No need to make it more
complicated than it was.Very brave dad and a terrific lesson.
Christopher B - ummmm, yep. We even break these standards when we go to the
beach.... play some sports.... Modest is the symbol of a covenant we have
taken, not the covenant itself. Therefor there are times, sometimes to make a
point, sometimes in the exercise of out jobs, sometimes for recreational
purposes, we dress appropriate to task.Some of are even known to
speed when late to work, not be fully honest when asked our opinions about how
others look, and even keep some secrets from our kids about the holidays.
Shocking.... I know.Boy, talk about missing the point article.
Jeanie and ordinaryindivdiual,Although I appreciate the reply, it
doesn't seem like either of you answered the question.Jeanie,So it would be ok to take drugs/smoke to teach a lesson?And by ok, I mean would the LDS church frown upon it and take
action(loss of temple privileges)ordinary,Someone
teaching another person to shoot free throws doesn't have to demonstrate it
in the incorrect way in order for the person to learn the incorrect way.I have done enough research on Mormonism and have enough Mormon
acquaintances that I know part of the Mormons temple worthiness is whether they
"dress appropriately" at all times. I would spell it out further but I
think the Des News moderators would use it as an excuse to block my comment, if
they wont already. I think you all know what I'm referring to. I ask again,Is the LDS church ok with people breaking rules to
I guess the part I have a hard time with is when Mormons stress something so
strongly and then have no issue not doing it.If modesty is so
important(and living in Utah I've heard Mormons talk about it countless
times). And if Mormons have to be even more strict in "clothing
requirements" after going through temple, this man makes it seem like those
things really aren't that important.So is modesty and doing
what is promised in your temples very important or not really important?And if its very important, why do people seem to support this guy not
doing what is so important?
"Is it ok to start smoking/drinking to prove a point about
smoking/drinking?"Chris B:My dad sure thought so.
When I was 16 he told me he knew I'd probably get invited by
some of my friends to try alcohol. He said, "I worry about the situations
you might be in when that happens, which could jeopardize your safety and that
of your friends [he was referring to driving, etc]. So, I want you to promise me
that when you feel the need to experiment with alcohol, you'll tell me.
I'll go buy it for you--whatever you want, clear out the family, and stay
here with you while you try it."I promised. And that took all
the perceived fun out out of it. As one very prominent leader of the
LDS Church once told me: "You've got to know the rules before you can
feel inspired to break them."
Good Job Dad, it doesn't matter if you are Mormon, Catholic, Protestant,
Jewish, Atheist, etc. The point is, you made the point. Even though your
daughter doesn't see it now, she will when she has children of her own.
I'm sure she will thank you at some point in her life.Again,
congratulations. We need more dads like you.
Christopher B. To try to answer your question directly about drinking and
smoking to prove a point--not all of the requirements/rules are weighted
equally. In my experience and in my opinion, as a temple attending Mormon, it
would not be okay to take drugs or drink alcohol in order to prove a point--no.
This would be considered a weighter matter. As far as the modesty issue
goes--modesty is important and it is stressed. As someone else already
expressed, it is permissible to dress in swimsuits, for instance, when at the
beach or to wear athletic uniforms or attire in order to particpate in sports
that may not be considered as modest as being fully clothed. My personal
opinion about what this Dad did to teach his daughter a lesson was not violating
any modesty issues. I believe that he did what he felt was the "more
weighter" matter in teaching his daughter a lesson on modesty and that he
did not violate any rules to any great degree. I hope this explanation helps
and it is my opinion.
Where in this story does it mention this man and his family are LDS? Sure, there
are clues that could lead you to believe that they are, but we could all be
wrong. I say this because LDS people aren't the only people who get
concerned about modest dress.
Great story! Too bad Chris B uses it to take a shot at this man's faith.
Thing is God has laws, God also has this thing call agency- our freedom to
choose. While God wants all his children to keep all his commandments 100
percent of the time, we are still free to choose. Whether or not the man's
funny action is against God's standard is entirely between him and his God
Chris B. I think your question has been adequately answered by many
posts. If you really want to understand the LDS faith, focus on the
doctrine and learn for yourself. Stop looking for hypocrisy among its members
and justifying it as learning. Maybe then you get why this dad's actions
aren't seen as wrong by many.
So after all of this, did anything change?
@SayNoto BO,Did the Savior ever break a rule/commandment in order to
teach one?Didn't think so.
Jeanie,My comment has been addressed, but not necessarily answered.
Big difference.I still don't think anyone has said what the
difference is between smoking to prove a point about not smoking and dressing
like this to prove a point about not dressing like this.And again,
I'm done enough research to know that both smoking and modesty-related
questions are asked to get a temple recommend.Right?
Let's get this straight. . .we are not all perfect. The dad used his agency
to prove a point. It didn't hurt him or anyone else. It's not for me
to question his agency. The article never stated that he'd been through the
Temple so Christopher B from Ogden, the article I read only said their family
does things together on Monday nights. v. . I didn't see it say Temple
anywhere in the article. I think he made a great parenting choice. If his
daughter didn't learn the message behind it many others will.
Good story. I told my wife the story and showed her the picture, and she just
said; was she wearing hers to, so he could wear his together. She liked the
story to, Her words was; it's cute.
From page 1 "Maybe I just don't understand"That's
the first time in the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of anti-Mormon and
anti-BYU comments that this lady has made on the Des News over multiple years
where she actually said something sensible!Good on her. I'm
glad she is starting to get it. Hopefully the message comes through even louder
and clearer next Friday!
@Really??? "Where in this story does it mention this man
and his family are LDS? Sure, there are clues that could lead you to believe
that they are, but we could all be wrong. I say this because LDS people
aren't the only people who get concerned about modest dress."The Monday evening family night was a dead give away. I vote for LDS
@ Chris BTell us more about our hypocrisy because we "liked"
how this guy dressed imodestly to teach his daughter a lesson.
In education we call what this dad did a "counter example". It's a
well-known method for making the correct way much more clear to the learner by
demonstrating the wrong way. Hopefully his daughter learned. :)
People made a similar pharisaical point some time ago.Mark 31 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there
which had a withered hand.2 And they watched him, whether he would
heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.3 And he
saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.4 And he
saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to
save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.5 And when he had
looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their
hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it
out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.6 And the
Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against
him, how they might destroy him.
Chris,Here is the straight up answer.If the problem is serious
enough, and I truly felt (after prayer) that smoking or drinking or taking drugs
would solve it (can't imagine how, but you asked) then yes, the salvation
of my children trumps everything. I imagine the vast majority of LDS would
agree.The fact that you have kept beating this to death tells me
that your understanding of the LDS faith is kind of shallow. One of the core
tenants of the faith is the right each person has to receive direct revelation
from God concerning our stewardships in the this life. Our children being the
most important of all.
Totally agree with steph-uk.Why does the daughter own a lot of
immodest clothing?? (I'm assuming she bought them herself). The short
shorts, tank tops, and sun dresses, etc., start at a very young age in my
opinion. If modesty is important to you, please don't buy the clothes for
your little girl that you don't want them wearing as a pre-teen and teen.
It starts with mom and was taught in our home to our daughters. Then you are NOT
giving boxes of clothing to the DI, and purchasing a new wardrobe when you get
married in the temple. You have already been dressing modestly.
No tank tops on boys or girls (except when playing sports) in Utah, a desert?Appropriateness, rather than forced prudery fits the 21st Century better
Re. Christopher B.You're straining at gnats.
How wonderful. A dad who loves his daughter. Now days it is out of the ordinary
that the daughter even knows her dads name. What a wonderful family example. You
children your parents love you and are teaching you how to be good parents in a
From the facebook picture of the daughter, it looks like she has had more than
enough "agency", with all of her piercings, lack of modest clothing,
etc. My kids will someday enjoy their free agency...when they are no longer
living under my roof. I fear this dad's lesson to this daughter is coming
too late. I hope it works!
The comment from "Really???" cracks me up. No, the article does not
state that Mr. Mackintosh is LDS. But take time to consider the clues: 1. He
resides in Utah County, 90% LDS. I know, still a 10% chance he's
non-Mormon. 2. He and his wife have seven children. I know, still a 5% chance he
could be non-Mormon Catholic. 3. Mackintosh is a Scottish name, not an Irish-,
Italian-, or Polish-Catholic name. Still a 2.5% chance he is non-Mormon. 4. He
said, "In an effort to try to spend time with just the family, we reserve
our Monday evenings for just that." Okay, he may be a Scotch-Catholic
software engineer transferred to Utah County by his employer, and who, despite
being non-Mormon, practices family home evening and cares deeply about his
daughter's modesty. But the odds are 99.2% to .8%.
In case he is LDS, here's this: recall that the Jewish law was to do no
work on the Sabbath. What was Christ's lesson regarding the man whose
donkey (okay, that wasn't the word used) was stuck in the mud and needed to
be rescued or would die? He said it was okay to pull out the animal for this man
on the Sabbath, even though it was work, because the circumstance was an
emergency and couldn't wait for the next day. I would put what happened
here in a similar light--after trying every othr way to teach this lesson with
love and kindness, this dad did the only thing left to him: he thought out of
the box and brought a new idea forward. Whether or not it will be successful
long term is not really our business, and I personally feel it's up to
daughter to tell us if she chooses. I do hope she paid attention--people tend to
listen to what you have to say much better when they aren't distracted on
the skimpiness of your outfit.
I hope the girl appreciates how much her father loves her. My father just died
and I'd give anything to have him back to laugh with and build funny
memories with. When the girl in the story grows up, she and her dad will
hopefully use this incident from the past to bond with.