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Letters: Racial flames have been fanned

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  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 7, 2013 8:06 a.m.

    " I would group those posters whose quest in life seems to be focused on putting everyone else in their "proper place" as racists."

    When you say putting others in their proper place, would you mean disagreeing with someone else, or pointing out the flaws in their argument? Either way, I don't see that as racist.

    "Racism is only whites hating blacks?"

    Who said racism is only whites hating blacks? Of course, seeing as whites control the power structure, their racism, for the most part has more consequences. . .

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Sept. 7, 2013 7:37 a.m.

    Mike - no one said it was just about Blacks.... it is just that this opinion piece was about Blacks. In you list of groups impacted by racism you forgot Asians, and now Muslims - the new racism de jour.

    Racism has no boundries. And yes, there are racist blacks, but they are rarely ever the majority where they can subjugate whites to their will... That was the amazing thing about Nelson Mandela. If there was a man who had justifiable racism, it should have been him.... and yet he rose above.

    If he can, surely others could too.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 7, 2013 6:31 a.m.

    @Mike Richards --

    "Ask those who are called "white trash" about racism."

    You're obviously not from the South if you think being "white trash" is about racism.

    It's not about race. Many, MANY white people call other whites "white trash". It's about poverty and a lack of culture/education -- in other words, it's an expression of classism, NOT racism.

    Oh, and about that term "cracker" that some folks pretend is a racial epithet. It isn't, either. It's applied in the same way that "white trash" is. Heck, some years ago there was a nationally-broadcast TV show called "Cracker", with the HERO of the show being the Cracker in question. So get over it.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:33 p.m.

    Racism is only whites hating blacks? Ask a Native American about racism. Ask those who are called "white trash" about racism. I would group those posters whose quest in life seems to be focused on putting everyone else in their "proper place" as racists.

    Those who use race to excuse themselves are racists just as much as those who limit some one's progression because color of skin or country of origin. Of course they deny being racist. In their mind they are much too superior to the rest of us to be racists.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Sept. 6, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    Can't change what we don't acknowledge.

    We are all biased.
    A bias is a tendency. Most biases—like preferring to eat food instead of paper clips, or assuming someone on fire should be put out—are helpful. But cognitive shortcuts can cause problems when we're not aware of them and we apply them inappropriately, leading to rash decisions or discriminatory practices (based on, say, racism and sexism). Relying on biases but keeping them in check requires a delicate balance of self-awareness.

    Prejudice and racism both refer to a negative view of one group of people based solely on their membership in that group. Racism is a specific form of prejudice, involving prejudicial attitudes or behavior towards members of an ethnic group.

    Stereotyping goes hand in hand with prejudice.

    Intergroup contact under positive conditions can reduce social prejudice. The necessary conditions include cooperation towards shared goals, equal status between groups, and the support of local authorities and cultural norms.

    Positive emotional experiences with members of different groups can also reduce negative stereotypes.
    (Paychology Today)

    re:LostinDC
    You often resort to name-calling. There are other ways to reveal your age.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 2:00 p.m.

    @Mike Richards
    "At least five generations have been born since the Civil War. "

    Sure, it's also only been around 1 generation since Utah's most well-known institution ended it's discriminatory policy, 50 years (and 11 days) since the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.

  • Confused Sandy, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 1:50 p.m.

    You know I find most disturbing? is the fact that just about EVERY poster on this article is focused on "Race" and not the real subject of the letter was about the lack of parenting, Violence in the movies, TV and Video games and those things affect people.

    We watch in the movies graphic images of shootings... No one say a peep
    We watch our children play video games with the same violent graphics.... no one says a peep
    we watch our TV programs get more and more graphic and violent... no one says a peep
    We watch parents who either don't want or accept responsibility have children and no one says a peep...

    but man is someone says something about "race" everyone is up in arms.....

    PEOPLE... the real problem is that we as a society is desensitizing the youth to the affects of real life violence.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:24 p.m.

    glendenbg,
    I'm confused by your post. Dr King said he dreamed of a day when we would judge a person by the content of their character not skin color their skin. But this lady stood up and said, "I believe in being colorblind . . . judging on the content of character not skin color."... and you criticize her?

    Maybe it's YOU that missed the point (or have decided Dr King's expectation is impossible, and anybody who claims to have made progress just doesn't understand the "realities of race").

    It sounds like you are encouraging people to see the color of a man's skin. That would be contrary to Dr King's expectation. Did Dr King miss the point of his own speech? Did he not understand the "realities of race"?

    Maybe instead of saying it's impossible... we should try to take Dr King's dream to the next level. Maybe we should not even judge our fellow man. Not by the color of his skin OR by our perception of his character.

    We have a long way to go, but we should not criticize people for saying they have made some progress.

  • glendenbg Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 10:05 a.m.

    @pragmatistferlife - the SPLC has published articles about the way in which people hide behind claims of being "colorblind" to ignore the realities of race. They have created curriculum on the topic.

    Last year, I heard black people talk about what it's like to be black in Utah. Without exception, they shared stories of being targeted for disparate treatment because of race. In some cases it was as simple as the soft bigotry of low expectations, but in other cases it was outright discrimination and maltreatment because of their race. One woman recounted being told she "scared" white patrons at a local business.

    I'm well educated, I thought I understood. Then I heard the life experiences of black people in Utah. I was disappointed my fellow Utahns would do some of the things they did. I was disappointed my fellow white Utahns would mistreat other Utahns so shabbily simply because of skin color. Near the end of the workshop, a white woman stood up and said, "I believe in being colorblind . . . judging on the content of character not skin color." She missed the point of the discussion. Race still matters. It shouldn't but it does.

  • glendenbg Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    @Mike Richards - Don't forget about Jim Crow - there are millions of Americans alive today who were raised in officially racially segregated states. Jim Crow severely limited educational and career opportunities for African Americans. Cities and towns nationwide were "Sundown Towns" which banned black persons from being within the city limits after sundown. There were at least ten such towns in Utah. In some places, entire counties were "sundown" counties. These laws served to limit educational and career opportunities for black persons. Such ordinances were legal until 1968.

    In many places, white parents started private schools in the 1960s and 70s so their children could be kept away from black students. Many of those schools today are known as "Christian Academies" of some sort or another.

    Lynchings of black men lasted into the 1950s and were often carried out with official approval. All these things were intended to oppress black people, to keep them from seeking education and economic advancement, to terrorize an entire segment of our nation's population.

    To dismiss such history and discussion of its effects as "whining" is dismissive and harmful.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Sept. 6, 2013 8:38 a.m.

    Exactly glendenbg. What's sad is that colorblind racism is impervious to discussion not just because it's ideological but because it actually makes the holder feel good and in many cases superior about themselves.

    Colorblind racist comments like "when will the whining stop" come from privileged whites that don't even recognize their privilege. It's very privileged to be born into a family that teaches work ethics, the value of education, the need for personal restraint. To not have that beginning is a huge disadvantage. Of course even if you are so privileged you still have to take advantage and do the work, but millions upon millions are born without that kind of a start.

    Just do it, doesn't mean anything to those who don't have any idea what do it means. So let's have a conversation about how we change this not some simplistic rant about I did it so you should to.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    @Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Should I blame the English "noblemen" who "employed" my ancestors, who made them rent company homes and buy from company stores while they forced them to work in their mines? Should I blame all of my poverty on their pitiful lives? Should I demand special priviledges because someone in 1802 made it impossible for a relative to ever own property? When that cycle continued in 1893 should I say that our family was forever doomed? When my father was born in 1921, was he shackled to a plow on a farm that grew nothing but rocks?

    Everyone can blame someone else for failure - if they are that kind of person - or they can thank God for life and then try to make things better.
    7:05 a.m. Sept. 6, 2013

    =========

    Are you Black?

    Because the whole premise of the letter is that simply by being black,
    you are automatically castigated as being 7 times more likely to be a criminal.

    That is :
    Regardless of your character,
    Regardless of your own personal actions,
    Regardless of your astute morality.
    Regardless of being LDS and Temple Worthy.

    Overt and implied racism is still racism.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:55 a.m.

    @ Contrariusiest


    "The recent murder of Australian college athlete Chris Lane was actually committed by one black teen, one biracial teen, and one WHITE teen -- not "black youths", even though that was the false story spread around by conservative media outlets."

    I didn't realize that the Associated Press or CBS were conservative media outlets

    also, since Martin, it is no longer politically correct to use the phrase "bi-racial" - it is either white Hispanic or in the case of the Lane accomplice (the one who looks like what the son of Obama might look like), for consistency sake, should be described as being white African American

    BTW: even though Eric Holder set up a special email address to gather "proof" that Zimmerman was racially motivated - neither the court or FBI found any such evidence, whereas the Lane shooter had anti-white posts all over his facebook page.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Sept. 6, 2013 7:05 a.m.

    At least five generations have been born since the Civil War. At what point does the whining stop? At what point do people take responsibility for the consequences of their own lives? Should I blame the English "noblemen" who "employed" my ancestors, who made them rent company homes and buy from company stores while they forced them to work in their mines? Should I blame all of my poverty on their pitiful lives? Should I demand special priviledges because someone in 1802 made it impossible for a relative to ever own property? Should I weep bitter tears because that cycle continued in 1821 and again in 1864? Should I blame the greedy mine owners in Price when my ancestors left England and came to Utah to work in the coal mines here? When that cycle continued in 1893 should I say that our family was forever doomed? When my father was born in 1921, was he shackled to a plow on a farm that grew nothing but rocks?

    Everyone can blame someone else for failure - if they are that kind of person - or they can thank God for life and then try to make things better.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 6, 2013 12:00 a.m.

    VST:

    ""I have often wondered if the definition of a racist is anyone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

    Hmnn, that's funny, I've never seen a conservative win an argument with a liberal.

    "Evenlyn is right, the black community has no one but the person in the mirror to blame for their struggles."

    Wow, Christofer! Really? I guess the institutionalized racism that has existed, and still exists, in this country has nothing to do with it. I guess the racism, both subtle and overt, that exists among many has nothing to do with it. I guess the racism that exists among the power structures of this country has nothing to do with it.

    No, there has been no wide spread oppresion of minorities in this country. Heavens no. They've just done it all to themselves. They've just kept themselves down, because, well, you know, that's how those people are. Right?

  • glendenbg Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:59 p.m.

    This letter is an example of colorblind racism - pretending that race doesn't matter when it clearly does. The legacy of Jim Crow and its unofficial cousin that was practiced throughout the US directly contributed to the social pathologies the author bemoans - family instability, economic disadvantages, higher rates of substance abuse and crime.

    Colorblind racism denies and/or minimizes racism and manages to make it seem as if white prejudice is a thing of the past while blaming the effects of centuries of racism on its victims. Colorblind racism blames "culture" or "background" without acknowledging the impact of centuries of discrimination. This author's argument locates the problem in family structures without acknowledging the forces that created those family structures.

    Nasty, Jim Crow style racism is a thing of the past and that is an unadulterated good. But racism didn't die with Jim Crow - it went underground. Colorblind racism elides the very real problems of race and prejudice and manages to make it seem as if white people have never done a thing wrong.

    It's not the old style racism, but it still pathologizes black America for being victims of white racism.

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 4:02 p.m.

    @CopyCat
    Is that any different than the underground fundraising for Mitt Romney in my parents ward? Is it any different than the fact that a similarly large majority of Mormons voted for Romney? Or is it that two groups that had experienced discrimination finally had one of "their guys" with a legitimate chance at being POTUS and they wanted to support him? Don't be mad because there are more black people in the United States than Mormons.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 2:05 p.m.

    @Badgerbadger --

    "The larger consensus is that 85-90% of interracial crime is perpetrated by blacks... "

    I didn't say the number was wrong, Badger. I said it was misleading.

    I posted the titles of educational discussions on this issue 'cause I really don't have time to be looking up all the facts and figures for a big debate here. But if you're interested in learning what the numbers really mean, those two articles would be a good place to start.

    @lost --

    "BO can claim if he had a son he'd look like Trayvon, but he wouldn't say the same about the balck and bi-racial murderers of the aussie. "

    You left out the white one, Lost. ;-)

    Justice was served swiftly and efficiently in the Chris Lane case -- so there was no need for any public outcry.

    "you mean that's why BO got 90% of the black vote"

    Blacks voted 90% Dem in 2000, 88% in 2004, 95% in 2008, and 93% in 2012. They've been voting Dem for President in the high 80s to mid-90s since 1964 -- 94% in 1964, in fact. There's nothing terribly unusual about their Obama votes.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    rac·ism
    [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA

    noun
    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement...

    2. a policy, ...based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

    ==========

    Seems like this letter could be crossing over that line in and of itself.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 1:33 p.m.

    Racism --
    Someone who categorizes, generalizes, and lumps people together based on race, color of skin, or ethnic heredity.

    And the
    Irony of the day --
    The letter writer, writing about "racism" exhibits a subtle but absolute form of racism herself.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 12:57 p.m.

    @ copy cat- Understanding the difference between racism and what I said would be one step in the right direction. Comment about religion are not racist since there are no pure race religious groups even those trying to purify one race or another. Anti semantic? hardly since all religions are the "chosen" according to them.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    @Copy Cat
    Darn it, I knew it was possible that it was in the high 80s. I ought to have factchecked that to make sure.

    Oh well, my point remains that it's a really high number that vote for white Democrats too. And besides, this goes both ways. Romney cleaned up the Mormon vote after all (including in the primaries where you can't just claim most Mormons are Republican).

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    Of course they've been fanned! If you can't see that, you're blind. The question should be... What are we going to do about it?

    This discussion is useless with the direction it's going (bickering the minute points and never getting around to discussing what we should do about it).

    Is fanning the flames a GOOD thing? What good does fanning the flames do?

    Is fanning the flames a BAD thing? What bad things come from fanning the flames of racism?

    Bickering partisan points may be fun, but it gets us nowhere.

  • Copy Cat Murray, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 12:02 p.m.

    Typical of the left, Atl34 gave false numbers.

    (Remember that democrats/liberals fall asleep when the numbers and charts come out, like for budgets and such.)

    I'll try to keep it simple for them.

    Kerry got 88% of the black vote, which is less than 90% for those of you who are math challenged or have difficulty with the concept of the big end points at the bigger number.

    Obama got 95% in 2008, and 2.1 million black people became new voters, many of which did so, so they could vote for the black man.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:58 a.m.

    The Wall Street Journal reported that between 2000 and 2010 that 78,521 blacks were homicide victims and that 58,989 whites were homicide victims. They reported that 68,531 blacks committed homicide and that 49,936 whites committed homicide.

    Up to this point, some people might claim that environment could be blamed for the higher number of blacks committing homicide and being victims of homicide; however, when you factor in that 77% of us are white and that 13% of us are black, then you can begin to see how incredible the homicide numbers really are.

    What has the government done to stop black on black violence? Maybe the better statement is that the failed "welfare" programs have increased violence in America. With third and fourth generation "families" living on welfare without a father and a mother in the home, just what did the government expect to happen?

    When the President teaches us to blame others for our problems and to demand equal outcome with no effort on our part, what does he expect?

    It's too bad that Bill Cosby is not the President. He tells it like it is.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:18 a.m.

    @lost in DC
    John Kerry got 90+% of the black vote in 2004... and Hillary Clinton will most likely get 90+% of the black vote in 2016.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:08 a.m.

    BO can claim if he had a son he'd look like Trayvon, but he wouldn't say the same about the balck and bi-racial murderers of the aussie. what a hypocrite.

    T-seeker (sorry, just cannot put "truth" in your name)
    FBI stats on hate crime - who decides whether or not something's a hate crime? The black TSA agent who went on a rant wanting to start a race war - I have to wonder whether the holder-led injustice department would even call hime a hater, and if he attacked a non-black, if they would call it a hate crime. Those stats are easily manipulated.

    t-seeker said BO's election brings to light that racism still exists. - you mean that's why BO got 90% of the black vote, blacks will not vote for anyone not of their race given the choice of another black?

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    @ Contrariusier

    Looked up lots of sites, not just your cherry picked one. The larger consensus is that 85-90% of interracial crime is perpetrated by blacks, which, when you do the math, matches the numbers in the letter (88%).

    That is not a racist claim. It is just the facts. Evelyn isn't racist either. She doesn't blame the color. She rightly blames the deterioration of the family and urges society to help reinstate the family as the revered necessary unit for a healthier society.

    Why do you find that so offensive that you go off on a racist rant, proving her point perfectly?

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 11:01 a.m.

    How many other Presidents were required to show their birth certificates?

    Where is the racism coming from again?

  • Copy Cat Murray, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:53 a.m.

    I love the way Happy Valley Heretic calls other people racist by spouting an anti-Semitic phrase.

    I guess the screeners missed that one.

    Perhaps happy valley hypocrite would be a better name.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:33 a.m.

    I agree with the letter writer. We have this misconception, a myth, that there is such a thing as casual sex. I stopped believing in Santa Claus a long time ago.

    One time I was visiting a youth detention center to tell multicultural stories to young men who had broken the law enough times for the law to take notice.

    I was telling a story about a young man whose parents arranged for him to be adopted into an enemy tribe at the beginning of a war so that their son would be on the winning side and not be killed. In the first battle the young man met his father on the field of battle and the father told his son, "You have to kill me to show that you are truly loyal to your new tribe."

    One of the inmates raised his hand and asked, "How did he know that was his father?" This threw me for a loop. Had I left out a detail? Because my assumption was, of course, you would know your own father. That wasn't the case in this young man's community. Which explained why he was in the youth detention center.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:20 a.m.

    The election of Obama as President brought to light both the progress we've made as well as the racism that persists.

    Homicide statstics show people are more likely to be killed by someone of their own race. Most murders were intraracial, with 84% of white homicide victims murdered by whites, and 93% of black victims murdered by blacks.

    Another recent study in 2012 raises a different concern, showing that Hispanics and blacks receive considerably longer sentences for the same or lesser offenses per average than white offenders with equal or greater criminal records.

    African Americans are given longer federal sentences, even when factoring prior criminal records. African American jail sentences tend to be roughly 10% longer than white jail sentences for the same crimes. According to the US Census Bureau as of the year 2000 there were 2,224,181 blacks enrolled in college. In that same year there were only 610,300 black inmates in prison according to the Bureau of Justice.

    According to the FBI, in 2010 58% of hate crime offenders were latino or white, and 18% of offenders were black.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:14 a.m.

    I believe that the treatment of President Obama is a solid indication that racial prejudice is alive and well just below the surface of the American society. The cases of Trayvon Martin and the unnamed whites may just be what we need to expose the truth.

    The writers choice of words may also tell us so. The black youth is identified by name giving the notion that it is a single unusual incident. The description of the white youths as shocking murders by black youth conveys a more general widespread activity.

    The notion that the missing father is the cause of the bad behavior is simply the propaganda of a leading cable news person and is pointing to a symptom of the problem rather than the cause.

    My opinion is that it is economic oppression that is the great determiner in a person’s behavior. Businessmen will never admit to this and we won’t hear or see it on any media.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 9:35 a.m.

    Chris B "Shows where the racism truly lies."

    ...where it always has, among the fearful, the ignorant, and the chosen.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 9:07 a.m.

    @Samson01 --

    "You seem to be picking at words in order to be contrary. Maybe that was your intent?"

    No, sorry. That was a delayed reaction to earlier discussions of the Chris Lane murder, in which multiple responders insisted that the murder was a hate crime because supposedly it was committed by black teens. Seeing the repetition of the falsehood, I wanted to make sure that the earlier canards didn't get started again.

    As you can see from Chris' post, some people are all too willing to blame the ills of the world on race.

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    You write: Studies have shown that having a father in the home is critical to a young person's success

    I think you left out a couple of words here. Like "good" and "involved". Studies have actually shown that the presence of a parent that cannot be described by those words actually does young people much more harm than good. If a man does not want to act as his children's father, he is more of a liability than an asset.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:39 a.m.

    @Chris B --

    "Black commit 7.5 more interracial crimes than whites, even though they are a much smaller percentage of the population?"

    That's a misleading claim, but the statistics are complicated and time-consuming.

    There are good discussions of the facts out there, though, if you want to look them up.

    One thorough article is "Race, Crime and Statistical Malpractice: How the Right Manipulates White Fear With Bogus Data" at the Time Wise website.

    Another is "Race and crime in the United States" on wikipedia.

    Anyone who is interested in the actual facts of the issue should at least take the time to do some independent research.

  • Samson01 S. Jordan, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 8:33 a.m.

    Contrariusiest,

    I am trying to understand your post. You quoted a part of the letter that was not inaccurate, perhaps not complete, but not inaccurate. You then jumped on the phrase "racial flames" when the writer was clearly steering away from the racial aspect and emphasizing other factors.

    The quote "There is a societal problem that I believe has more to do with the violence than does prejudice." clearly indicates the premise of the letter. That is that racism is less a factor than other factors including government dependence, TV violence, gangs, personal violence, and the lack of a family structure.

    You seem to be picking at words in order to be contrary. Maybe that was your intent?

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Sept. 5, 2013 7:26 a.m.

    "Racial flames have been fanned by the Trayvon Martin case and the two shocking murders of white victims by black youths. "

    Please get your facts straight before fanning those "racial flames" even higher.

    The recent murder of Australian college athlete Chris Lane was actually committed by one black teen, one biracial teen, and one WHITE teen -- not "black youths", even though that was the false story spread around by conservative media outlets.