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Comments about ‘Bradley Manning, who now goes by the name Chelsea, seeks presidential pardon’

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Published: Wednesday, Sept. 4 2013 9:00 a.m. MDT

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Say No to BO
Mapleton, UT

I would think he deserves at least a presidential phone call for having the courage to come out.
After all, there is an Obama precedent for such things.

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

Chelsea is still a man.

A man in a dress is a man in a dress.

A man calling himself Chelsea is a man calling himself Chelsea.

He won't get pardoned.

He'll spend his time in jail as he deserves

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

I am not a flying purple dinosaur simply because I say so.

Neither is he a woman simply because he says so.

His birth doctors used FACTS and EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

His parents used FACTS and EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

The military doctors used FACTS And EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

The government used FACTS And EVIDENCE to conclude he is a male.

If he has evidence he is a female, I'm open to hearing it?

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

It seems those who support transgender people are attempting to change the definition of male and female that has been used for tens of thousands of years.

Society has a long established and accepted definition of male and female.

If those who support the "transgender" community are attempting to change this definition, what is the new definition?

What makes someone a man?
What makes someone a woman?

And no, it can't be "because they say so"

I'm not a flying purple dinosaur even if I say so

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

Attempting to change the definition of "male" and "female" does substantial damage to liberal causes that they've fought for for decades.

"Equal pay" laws would be gone - after all, there appears to now be no way to determine who is male and who is female

Title IX laws - gone. After all, there appears to now be no way to determine who is male and who is female

"Gender discrimination" laws - gone. After all, there isn't a way to determine who is male and who is female.

Pretty soon liberals will have made things so twisted, there will no longer be any distintion between male and female anywhere.

Gone will be any sort of classification of gender.

Laws to protect females? gone
Male and female restrooms separate? gone
Male/female sports teams? gone

If they're attempting to change what a male is and what a female is, they can't really back up anything they've been fighting for if they can't determine what is a "male" or "female" in the first place.

Say No to BO
Mapleton, UT

The frightening thing here is that someone so unstable could be in possession of such sensitive material. Don't they screen our troops for such instability, or is that not PC?

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

say no
PC trumps EVERTHING! didn't you know that? our national security, everything is secondary to PC. Why else would the ft hood kilings be refered to as "workplace violence"?

Contrariusiest
mid-state, TN

@Chris --

Manning's gender has little to do with this case.

Nonetheless, you don't actually know whether "he" is in fact male or not.

You haven't read the medical reports, the psych reports, OR the court transcripts.

You simply don't have the essential facts.

OTOH, we do know that Manning was diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder by two psychiatrists. The first diagnosis was made before the leaks occurred.

We also know that GID is associated with genetic, hormonal, and neurologic changes. IOW, it has a biological basis.

And yes, I know, Manning is in a men's prison. Known intersex people are in men's prison's across the country. Our prison system -- and especially the military system -- simply isn't equipped to deal with people who don't quite fit into the gender norms. Notably, though, many civilian prisons WILL provide hormonal treatment for their transsexual inmates.

And no, Manning isn't trying to change any definitions. He's simply trying to fit into the category that his brain is telling him he belongs in.

If your brain was transplanted into a woman's body, would you still identify as a man?

VST
Bountiful, UT

Contrary to the obvious "deflection" in the comment made by @Contrariusiest (misspelled by the way), I am pretty certain that if you medically check out Manning’s chromosome map, you will see he has one X- chromosome received from his mother and one Y-chromosome received from this father. Last time I took Genetics in college that makes Manning a man and not a woman. That is probably why, when he came into the Army, he had ample visual evidence that he had male genital organs and not female organs – very doubtful you will find a uterus in his abdomen. Hence the Army rightfully assumed he was a male, regardless of what sex he thinks he is in his head.

As for the chances of Manning getting a pardon? None!

Contrariusiest
mid-state, TN

@VST --

"Contrariusiest (misspelled by the way)"

I made up the word myself -- so I know how to spell it, thanks. ;-)

"he has one X- chromosome..."

Don't make assumptions.

Some people look male, yet have XX chromosomes. For instance, people with severe congenital adrenal hyperplasia may be born with male physical characteristics. Others are born XXY. Others may have characteristics of BOTH genders, and chimeras may have both XX and XY chromosomes.

In fact, chromosomal gender is not always obvious on external physical exam.

One in every 5000 babies has enough physical ambiguity to make gender assignment difficult or impossible by visual inspection.

The Intersex Society of North America states: "...intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.""

"very doubtful you will find a uterus... "

Look up Steve Crecelius. "He" is the father of several children. He recently found out that he also has a uterus and ovaries.

VST
Bountiful, UT

@Contrariusiest,

Yeah – right! And I am the tooth fairy.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

Vst, well said.

Bradley is just a very confused man. Numerous people who have decades of medical experience have all concluded he is a male.

He can wish all he wants to be a woman, just as I can wish I were a flying purple dinosaur.

But thinking or wishing something doesn't make it so.

He is a man.

I hope he gets the mental help he clearly needs.

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

People sometimes confuse "gender identity" with "gender"

Bradley may have gender identity problems.

But his gender identity doesn't impact gender.

His gender impacts gender.

And his gender is male.

Contrariusiest
mid-state, TN

@VST --

"And I am the tooth fairy."

Hiya, Toothy! ;-)

@Chris B --

"Numerous people who have decades of medical experience have all concluded he is a male. "

Just as numerous people with decades of medical experience all concluded that Steve Crecelius was a normal male. -- But he wasn't.

Remember that ISNA statement: "Sometimes a person isn't found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing."

"Bradley may have gender identity problems. "

Obviously. Two psychiatrists have diagnosed him with GID.

And we know that GID can arise from genetic, hormonal, and/or neurological changes.

1. GID is 62% heritable, indicating a strong genetic influence.

2. In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is often associated with genetically-induced androgen insensitivity.

3. Male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female stria terminalis (part of the brain), while female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male stria terminalis.

4. The hypothalamus in male-to-female transsexuals appears to function as a typical woman's does.

That's biology, Chris -- not just wishful thinking.

redshirt007
tranquility base, 00

Wow. A Freudian Psychologist would have afield day with some of these comments. I'll never understand how someone can have such an emotional response to a person they neither know personally nor supposedly share anything in common.

An ounce of empathy would be a good start. The entire world could tell me I shouldn't be heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why should I believe anyone else can? They can't. Get over it.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Contrariusiest
his psych tests have NOTHING to do with his physical make-up.

use all the variations of the name you want to get around the 4 post limit, but that does not change BRADLEY's anatomy.

Contrariusier
mid-state, TN

@Say No to BO --

"The frightening thing here is that someone so unstable could be in possession of such sensitive material. Don't they screen our troops for such instability, or is that not PC?"

That was actually a part of the defense's argument.

Manning was already seeing a psychiatrist before the leaks occurred, and he was known to be experiencing a high degree of psychological stress (in addition to the GID diagnosis -- for instance, at one point he assaulted another intelligence officer). His defense lawyer argued that he should have been removed from duty because of his obvious stress and instability. His superior officer argued that, in part, he did not remove Manning because they simply didn't have enough manpower to get their job done without him.

VST
Bountiful, UT

@redshirt007,

This discussion is about physiology and not psychology. There is no emotion on my part, and yes, I do have empathy for someone who psychologically believes they are a different sex. You brought it up when you said “…they neither know personally nor supposedly share anything in common.” Likewise, you do not know me, but yet you “brand me” as having no empathy – WRONG.

As for physiological gender, even though I do not personally know Manning, the Army medical personnel do, and the Army is on my side of this discussion. They said, physiologically, he is a male.

I will take the Army’s word for it over anyone else who also does not personally know Bradley Manning.

Christofer B
Salt Lake, UT

redshirt,

"The entire world could tell me I shouldn't be heterosexual and yet I can not change my nature. Why should I believe anyone else can? They can't."

You're exactly right.

He can't change his nature.

He's a man.

Just as homosexuals say homosexuality can't be changed, same with gender.

It may even be true he can't change wishing he was a woman.

He may not even be able to change thinking he is a woman.

No one is debating what he wants/hopes/thinks.

Its just a matter of what he is.

And countless medical professionals have all come back with the same conclusion:

male

Now, I think everyone is open to any facts that suggest otherwise?

But he presents none. As there are none.

Contrariusier
mid-state, TN

@VST --

"This discussion is about physiology and not psychology."

They often go together. In the case of GID, we know that genetic, hormonal, and neurological changes are associated with it.

"They said, physiologically, he is a male."

Says who?

Do you know what sort of testing, if any, was performed on Manning?

Nope, you don't.

Actually, physiology never even came up in the trial. His lawyers focused on Manning's stress, not his physiological status.

@Christofer B --

"He's a man."

Show us the medical and psych reports.

Oh, that's right -- you can't.

If your brain was transplanted into a woman's body, would you still identify as a man?

That's pretty much what people with GID are. They more-or-less have brains that are structured like and act like the gender opposite to their bodies.

In addition, some GID people -- like Steve Crecelius, for example -- have more obvious intersex conditions. Crecelius, for instance, has a uterus and ovaries. He's probably an XX/XY chimera. Others have androgen insensitivity. Others are XXY.

There's a lot of intersex conditions. You simply don't have enough facts to declare that Manning has none of them..

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