For those who find it fun and lucrative to sandblast minimum wage workers, I
give you a challenge... You obviously have sufficient income for your needs
right? Take for one month a part time job. Witness first hand the corporate
insanity and mind numbing crazy that happens in say the lunch hour rush where
you have either slow workers trying to feed the masses or not enough help due to
keeping labor costs down or insufficient number of employees period. If after a
month of working at a fast food restaurant you still feel that our labor is only
worth $5 an hour feel free to continue to spout your mouth. If on the other hand
you grow in compassion towards us realizing that circumstances are as they are
and that there really aren't that many jobs for even college educated
people, apology accepted. If you are to knock anything, knock the over paid
athletes at the consequence of over priced tickets etc. Oh, and rather than
using that sandblasted help to purchase your clothes, household goods, groceries
and etc make them yourself! Pump and refine your own gas and learn the reality
of the insanity in mocking us.
Obama simply doesn't get it... Is economically incompetent. Raising the
minimum wage to $9/hr with his insane mandate for health will crush small
businesses and make about as much difference in the economic recovery of this
country as the effectiveness of washing the car in the middle of a three hour
rain storm. With his health mandate, employers across the country are being
forced to reduce hours to non-living 30 hours or less. On top of that insanity
raising the cost of the labor used for super markets and restaurants etc... IE
Target, K-Mart etc etc is going to sky rocket those prices too. This guy simply
doesn't get it! 2017 can't get here soon enough, but that replacement
won't be a lick better. So, make the most of your lives and stay happy.
There is happiness in pushing along no matter the nonsense surrounding you. And
for those crying to go to school to not have to be a minimum wage worker, get a
clue! Have you seen the hire statistics for college educated v minimum wage?
To "LDS Liberal" why does it matter who flipped the burger. Did the
burger flipper make decisions on the latest marketing campaign that made my kids
want to go to McDonalds?You are wrong about the CEO doing nothing.
They are the ones who ultimately have to sell the copany to investors, and quite
often are the ones who have to make the final decision on how to market their
company.Where do you buy your clothing? Do you make it yourself
from US manufactured fabric?I don't worry about my dollars
being sent to Communist China becuase I know that with each purchase the
capitalists in China are using that money to influence the communist leaders
into giving up more control and allowing capitalism to become the norm for
China.Say what you want, but I know what my money is going towards,
do you?You hate capitalism, yet you live and work in a capitalist
system. So, to quote you "you are an economic traitor to everything this
country should stand for."
@Redshirt1701Deep Space 9, UtReally?You think that CEO
flipped YOUR burger for you?Did that CEO manage the Supply Chain,
sign the order, fill the request?When I get a burger, or buy an item
-- it's the burger flipper or check-out clerk that I need, and am willing
to pay for.A CEO making $100 Million a year did NOTHING for my
patronage.If anything - he only added to MY cost.For reason
and that reason only -- I buy locally from Mom & Pop joints.My money stays in the local economy, and I never have to worry
about my American dollars being sent to Communist China.BTW - Red,
You love Capitalism just as much as you love Communism.You say
so with your wallet.To me - you are an economic traitor to
everything this country should stand for.
You know libs there are a couple of real philosophical differences being
displayed here that go to the crux of this discussion and many more. The first
is the Republican/conservative/capitalist, propensity to desire riches, and to
ascribe that desire to all. Don't get me wrong I'm not against
riches, I have a great house and lots of toys, but it's not "the"
motivator for me or most liberals. Secondly, is the idea of private
property. Not enough room to talk about here, but the conservatives here see
the world through the lens of private property where most libs don't.
It's not that libs don't believe in private property we just
don't see the world through that lens and therefore don't tend to
think of it as absolute. I doubt theses differences will ever be
resolved but understanding them could change the discussion.
To "Open Minded Mormon" but CEOs are being paied for what they do. They
are being paid for their ability to manage large corporations. Just like there
are few who can golf like Tiger Woods, how many people are there who have
experience running large multinational corporations successfully?
If it wasn't for wall street bankers, ceo's and entrepeuners were
would those people get the jobs. Entrepeuners actually create a business with a
demand from the community that create jobs people are looking for. It is no
easy picnic for what they do. If you want to make there money try doing what
they do. Will be in for surprise.
the issue is that some of the low-wage jobs are not worth more than what they
are being paid. take fast-food for example, flipping burgers is a very low
skill job as opposed to say running a company, just about anyone can flip a
burger or assemble a sandwich. if wages go up, costs go up. when costs go up,
either costs are scaled back either by fewer hours or benefits or prices of
their product are increased to offset the increase in cost.
@Mike Richards:"Personal welfare is NOT a duty of the Federal
Government."The government's job, as assigned by the US
Constitution, is to 'promote the general welfare.' A minimum wage
requirement would seem to deal with general welfare.On the other
hand, a minimum wage increase raises the cost of living... which in turn,
requires a raise in the minimum wage. So, essentially, the general welfare is
not promoted with a minimum wage or increase in a minimum wage.
The CEO of McDonald's is paid less than $5 per year per employee. His
salary isn't relevant to the discussion, although it's hard to have
much respect for someone who takes home that much and no doubt doesn't need
it. I think much more highly of guys like Lee Iacocca, who worked at Chrysler
for $1.00 per year.It's difficult to know when government
intervention crosses the line between useful and destructive. That's why
it's important to have the debate. Large corporations such as
McDonald's are deeply cognizant of market forces and tend to do what the
market dictates.I think one of the dynamics occurring in our economy
is that in terms of actual value (not dollars) the economy is shrinking due to
Obama's (and the greenies') war on inexpensive energy. They don't
seem to realize (or perhaps they do) that standard of living is largely a
function of the cost of energy. When the standard of living goes down, the boats
in the shallowest water run aground first.
FreedomFighter41,most small businesses ARE corporations. small business
and corporations are not mutually exclusive. the statement you deride is true.
the largest job creators ARE small businesses, including small corporations.
"First, the largest job-creating sector in the country is SMALL BUSINESS,
not large corporations."False. Over 2/3rds of all Americans
employed in the private sector work for corporations, NOT small business.
@2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UTI know it's popular in some
circles to only worry about what CEOs make. But lets face it... CEOs aren't
the only people who's salaries may be considered by some to be
"unfair".How about Tiger Woods, or Kobe Bryant or Brad Pit?
Tiger Woods gets payed several million dollars each year to play
golf! ======== The difference is Tiger Woods gets rich
for doing what Tiger Woods does.WallStreet, Banks, CEOs get rich
from what OTHER people are doing FOR them.i.e., Master/Slave.If you are LDS, the Law of the harvest God says - you reap what you
sow.not,It's OK by me to reap what others have sown, grown, and
harvested for you and don't pay them enough so they must get food stamps
from the Government to feed you..
everything these days seems to be about fairness doesn't it and the
fairness but be defined by those on the left. I think it's great to raise
the minimum wage to say...$12 per our...as long as small business gets a
corresponding tax break. How many think Barack is going to cut taxes?
"Why does he make several hundred times what his caddy does?"Good example. Tiger makes money in basically 2 ways. Endorsements and prize
money.A caddy typically get a percentage. So, it does not fit with
your premise.Also, I never said anything about fair. That was
others. Life is not fair.But, we are talking about a company and
their employees. We are talking about workers and CEO's.. A
company owner does not fit into the same category.Both workers for a
company.You obviously would rather compare a landscaper to a brain
surgeon.So, back to my point. If a company thrives, is it not in
part due to the workers?I would never suggest that the line worker
should make the same as a CEO. But, the disparity is getting ridiculous.
To "podunk utah" actually the minimum wage and most federal labor rules
came about because politicians were trying to buy up votes.For
example, minimum wage laws were a result of liberal politicians trying to keep
blacks out of their districts. During the 1930's there were businessmen
that would hire unemployed blacks and pay them less than what the whites
demanded. Since the businesses were prospering by hiring labor that was
relatively cheap, the liberals were worried that the new voters would vote
against their freedom killing "Jim Crow" laws. So, they put into effect
some minimum wage laws to stop the migration of minority workers.Minimum wage is just one way that governments like to control the economy.
Unfortunately they typically fail when trying to manage an economy.
Meanwhile, McDonald's boosts its CEO pay to nearly $4000 per hour.Based on sales figures, raising the minimum wage to $15 would require
McDonald's to raise the fee of its $1.00 double cheese burger to $1.17.
That alone -- without any other price increases -- would cover the cost of
paying their workers a living wage.
"Fairness" is an illusive thing to define for all people (when millions
of people are involved and they all have different expectations, abilities,
handicaps, needs, wants).JoeBlow,I know it's popular in
some circles to only worry about what CEOs make. But lets face it... CEOs
aren't the only people who's salaries may be considered by some to be
"unfair".How about Tiger Woods, or Kobe Bryant or Brad Pit?
Tiger Woods gets payed several million dollars each year to play
golf! Is THAT "Fair"? Why does he make several hundred times what
his caddy does? Why does he make more than his gardener? Kobe
makes millions every year. Should everybody who works with or for him make the
same thing he makes? (the CEO making more than the workers argument).Brad Pit makes $50Mil just for acting and getting pampered. Ask the
government... is THAT "Fair"?I'd rather have a good
teacher than a good actor or a good golfer. Is it "Fair" that they
make several hundred times what a good teacher gets paid?That's
what I'm talking about. "Fairness" (in income) is hard to agree on
One thing I don't get.The average worker is more productive
than they were 30 years ago. The average CEO used to make 30 time
their workers pay. Now, the average CEO makes 300 times that of their average
worker.Did CEO's become that much more "productive" or
"valuable"?I would certainly not want to have to justify the
disparity in the two.
for all you Ayn Rand wannabes... the minimum wage and all federal labor rules
for that matter came about due to stupid, lazy, shortsighted, ridiculous,
cowardly, foolish actions by employers back in the day... now certain industries
and corporations are repeating those same ways and they will reap what they
sow... government regulation!
To those of you who want the minimum wage changed as a matter of
"fairness", how are you going to define what is "fair"?You should find the parenting article titled “That’s not
Fair”. It used to be on MSN, but is available at other websites now too.
You sound just like the kids they describe. The author says "Whose kids
haven’t at one point hollered, “That’s not FAIR!” when
they felt cheated out of their supposed share of something?" That sounds
like you and others like you.They go on by stating "Early on,
fairness is typically defined in one of two ways: with everyone getting exactly
the same thing, or the child getting everything he or she wants....Fairness is a
perception about what is deserved or agreed upon,” Rode says. “It is
sometimes very unfair to make things equal.”"If you bother
to read the entire article, you find that fairness is arbitrary, and is a
childish attitude. Why base minimum wage on an attibute of a 5 year old?
How long will it take the minimum wage raising proponents to realize that they
shouldn't be using a 40 hour work week to calculate how the minimum wage
could life a person out of poverty? I think I just read that 80% of the jobs
cited in the latest jobs report are part-time, capped by employers at 29 hours
due to Obamacare penalties...
IMO if the Government is going to get into the "Fairness" game, and
legislate "Fair" minimum wages... they also need to have a legislated
cap on earnings (not just a minimum). That way all those football players,
Kobe Bryant, movie starts, rock stars, and CEOs earning $70Mil can only keep say
$1Mill and we can give the rest of their salary to the poor!Probably
not going to fly is it? You can only take this legislating "Fairness"
business so far before somebody complains and it breaks down.Legislating "Fairness" is like trying to legislate "Morality".
It doesn't work. Because everybody doesn't agree on what's
"Fair" (so everybody complains that your "Fairness" legislation
is not fair to them). Just as everybody doesn't agree on what's
"Moral" (so they complain that your morality legislation doesn't
fit their morals).Both sides get into trouble when they try to
legislate THEIR idea of "Good"ness (especially on a National level).
Kent,thank you for confirming labor is a commodity.I
would agree, to some extent, with your comment about the dual pay system.
Owners should be paid as much as possible, but not execs.Corporations have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to return as much as
possible to those shareholders, so yes, they DO pay the owners as much as
possible (while still retaining enough to capitalize and otherwise fund the
business). They are obligated to the shareholders to pay as little
as possible for ANY other cost of doing business, including labor - including
executives. Executive talent requires a premium, and the directors should not
pay execs more than they are worth. Do directors fail in this responsiblity?
yes, often they significantly overpay execs, but that is no excuse for
overpaying common labor.Want more pay, make you labor worth more.
That plain and simpleLDS?lib,face it, liberals won't be
happpy until they turn the US into the USSR.
As if minimum wage is going to lift anyone out of poverty? Minimum wage laws is
a subterfuge, a trick, a patronizing wink to the business community by Democrats
and Republicans. Minimum wage laws destroy initiative and keep the government
and business in a cozy protective relationship that insures their profits at the
expense of the poor and industrious. It is not only an affront to liberty and
free enterprise, but insures the long term survival of the business that
supposedly is interested in its employees, rather than profit. Any businessman
worth his salt would be interested in rewarding excellence, not mediocrity.
Excellence is rewarded with financial incentives, something that minimum wage
laws make almost impossible! How is it possible that people can't see
things for what they are? Money rules this world and minimum wage laws insure
that those who have it will continue hoarding it!
Define "Fair".We always run into problems when somebody
tries to decide what's "Fair" for everybody else (especially when
you put a politician in charge of deciding what's "Fair").In a "Fair" and perfect world we would all earn the same, because we
would all be equally talented, and equally skilled, and equally educated, and
equally motivated. But we all know that world doesn't exist. Trying to legislate that the world be "Fair" rarely works. That said... there needs to be a minimum of what an employer can pay.
Otherwise many jobs would only go to illegal aliens willing to work for way less
than the minimum and qualified American citizens would sit unemployed... oh
wait... that's what we already have.
Let's see, 88 percent of the low-wage workers are over age 20, and most of
them work full-time. Thanks for this information, Richard. It sure isn't
what we've been told by people who oppose a minimum-wage increase.And thanks, Kent C. DeForrest, for the comment on corporate feudalism. The
minimum wage is just one of many tools needed to keep greedy corporations from
"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality
of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages
possible."- Henry Ford
Lost in DC:Actually, all labor is a commodity. Even students in MBA
programs are taught to market themselves well. They are products that the
corporate system purchases.Corporations have a dual pay system. They
pay one group (the owners and a select few executives) as much as possible. They
pay the other group as little as possible. Not until this system is understood
for what it is will we have any kind of economic democracy in this country. We
will be saddled instead with a form of corporate feudalism that has very subtly
turned capitalism into the very thing it was designed to destroy: aristocracy.
Blaming everything on greedy republican "overlords" may feel good, but
it paints a very distorted picture not supported by the facts.First,
the largest job-creating sector in the country is SMALL BUSINESS, not large
corporations. So the idea of a few greedy Wall Street tycoons running the
entire economic picture in this country is absurd and impossible. Even
McDonald's, although it has a central corporate mechanism, is primarily a
franchise business. Local franchisees pay a set fee, then set (mostly) their
own prices.Second, over the last several years, we've been
upside down in job creation. The normal trend is for new full-time jobs to
outnumber new part-time jobs by 2-1 to 4-1. Currently, the ratio is backwards
at about 1 full-time job for every 4.5 part-time jobs created. Very few
companies are going to pay much more than minimum wage for part-time workers.Minimum wage was initially intended, at least partly, to keep workers
from being exploited during the Great Depression. $7.25 an hour isn't
@Happy Valley HereticOrem, UTI think we should lower it so the
conservatives can complain even more about food stamp usage increasing, while
their overlords set new records for profits...earned?8:14 a.m. Sept. 4,
2013======== Agreed.NO minimum wage.and Let people starve!Who cares about people, while
WallStreet Money Changers are making RECORD setting profits never before seen in
history?Because that worked oh so well in France.Face
it, Conservative won't be happy until America becomes Somalia.
Labor, especially unskilled or low-skill labor, is a commodity. Anyone who
thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.“According to the
Economic Policy Institute survey, only 21 percent of low wage workers lack a
high school education, and over 40 percent have been to college. Most likely
these are individuals who were laid off during the recession or were unable to
find a job except for one working at a low wage.”So business
owners need to pay the penalty for BO’s mishandling of the economy?
What’s fair about that?What’s fair about forcing an
employer to pay $9/hour for labor that is only worth $5/hour? The employer
won’t do it, and we will have even more unemployed.
I think we should lower it so the conservatives can complain even more about
food stamp usage increasing, while their overlords set new records for
Didn't John F. Kennedy say life is not fair? Thing is raising minimum wage
raises inflation. Since prices have to be raised to cover anyway. As for try
living on minimum wage are you saying you can't live on a higher wage
without government help? What would happen if minimum wage went away all
together.Way to raise your own minimum wage better education and
skills. I wonder if he had to sign a payroll? Since the only way a business
owner can make minimum wage is if after the many costs of the business enough
people support his product or service to make the money for him. I guess if a
business owner does not get minimum wage than government can give it to him like
they do his employees.
I agree. McDonalds et al should be required to pay $20.00 per hour. That way the
public can pay $10.00 for a Big Mac.How would that work for you Mr. Davis.
Who would be most harmed by an increase in the minimum wage? Wouldn't it
be those who are paid minimum wage? A business MUST pass along all costs or
that business will not survive. If McDonalds must pay $2 or $3 more per hour,
they will increase the cost of their meals. Who buys those meals? It's
not the "rich guy". It's the minimum wage earner. Gas stations
will be forced to pass along the wage increase. Grocery stores will have to
increase their prices. Wal-Mart, and other "discount" stores will have
to increase their prices. Who will be hit hardest by those price
increases, the minimum wage earner or the "rich guy"?Government has no business interferring with "minimum wage".
Government does not own the businesses. Government is not at risk in those
businesses. The principle purpose of the Federal Government is to protect the
United States against enemies. Personal welfare is NOT a duty of the Federal
Government.Incentive comes in many forms. If a minimum wage earner
wants to earn more money, the most certain way to do that is to increase his
skills. It works everytime it's tried.
Fairness? The government can not make anything in life "fair". No two
people have the same abilities, intelligence, creativity, drive and work ethic.
The government can not give one person something that it doesn't first have
to take away from another person by force. What's fair is getting what you
actually work for, rewarded for your creativity, paid for the value your produce
and the market place is much more fair than any incompetent, meddling
bureaucracy could ever be. Detroit is a good example of government trying to
enforce what they think is "fairness". Fairness from liberals is code
for more entitlements!
In reality "minimum wage" has nothing to do with fairness. It is merely
an attempt to give the perception that workers will be paid fairly. The
real problem is still the same as it has been for centuries. That problem is the
"Greed" of certain people and the "Sloth" of other people. While
it is true that many people will work hard and many employers will treat their
workers fairly and with respect we still have a percentage in both groups who
won't do either of these things. And when you triple the population
in a short period of time the situation becomes more visible.
Minimum wage laws are well-intentioned but destructive. When government
meddles in economic matters, this distorts healthy economic forces and usually
creates worse problems. Such is the case with minimum wage laws. They sound
good, but end up putting many people out of work, because businesses have to
raise prices, hire fewer workers, or close the business.Entry-level
jobs are a springboard of opportunity to higher-paying jobs. But minimum wage
laws mean FEWER jobs, thereby DESTROYING that springboard for many unskilled
workers who are trying to get a job.Another silent effect of
artificially raising wages by mandate is that it also raises PRICES all around.
So the resulting inflation means that the promised “greater purchasing
power” is a cruel hoax.Promoting minimum wage hikes makes
people feel good and compassionate, especially if they ignore the principles of
economics. But in reality these mandated wage hikes do a lot of damage to a lot
of people, and to the economy in general, while making little true long-term