Published: Thursday, Aug. 29 2013 12:00 a.m. MDT
Decreased school size. school district size and class size would recruit better
teachers, create a better environment for kids especially in inner cities, and
increase positive parental involvement in the students academics. Great letter.
Fund smaller classes only as you cut administrative fat. Also, let's not
punish parents for having large families. Large families should be encouraged
at a time when there are not enough children produced to sustain Social Security
I agree schools need more money at the teacher level not in admin. However i
would rather see the money come from a source other then eliminating the child
tax deduction as this senator is proposing.
Open the books. Open the books. Open the books.Utah spends a great
deal of money on education. Where is that money going? Open the books. Show
us where every dollar is being spent. Why would administrators be paid more
than teachers? Aren't teachers the "front line"? Why, then, have
an insentive to get teachers out of the classroom?Show us exactly
why each administrator has a job. If teachers have 40+ students in each class,
why not double the workload on each administrator?Teachers make more
money than most of the taxpayers who pay their salaries. That may come as a
major shock to some teachers who think that they are underpaid. The median
household income in the United States is $63,000. Utah's is $56,000. In a
two income family, that comes to $28,000 per wage earner or $14.00 per hour.
Family size in the US is 3.00, with Utah having 3.56 people average per
household. Open the books. Let those who pay the taxes see where
their tax dollars are being spent.
Please note that the administrative costs for Utah public education are much
smaller (about 2/3) of the administrative costs for education systems around the
country.Compare public education administrative costs to your own
employment situation. Where else does one person have supervision
responsibility for about 50 teachers, about 40 school foods, secretarial staff,
and custodial personnel, and 500 teen agers? This is the situation as present
today in large Wasatch front high schools of 2500 students. This assumes that
the principal shares the l
"Also, let's not punish parents for having large families."Large families are the ones causing the strain on the system. It is not
punishing them to ask them to pay more of their fair share for services they are
using. Republicans always say they want a flatter, more fair tax with fewer
deductions that are give aways to special groups--well this proposal does
exactly that and Utah Republicans hate it, even though it's their own
Great letter!There is a correlation between class size and student
achievement. The smaller the class size the higher the achievement will be.
There is, however, a strong relationship between per pupil funding, class size,
and student achievement. The higher the funding, the lower the class size is,
will increase the achievement. Which doesn't bode well for
Utah, where per pupil funding is dead last, class sizes are highest among the
nation, and student achievement is now slipping. There are those on
AM radio that like to deny this, and insist that funding doesn't mean
better results. Then again, there are those who deny evolution, global warming,
and believe that Noah put dinosaurs on his ark. Lets stick to being smart and
use common sense here and ignore the loud static that is being played on AM
radio. We need to fix education. Better funding (and yes, higher
taxes) needs to happen.
@ Sal"Fund smaller classes only as you cut administrative
fat."Have you even attempted to calculate the cost of this? Lets
assume that you got rid of an entire school district's leadership. With
more than 70 schools in many school districts in Utah, you wouldn't even be
able to add one teacher to every single with the "savings" you'd
gain by cutting administration.Even if you cut one administrator
from each school you'd only be able to add maybe 2 teachers per school.
That makes absolutely NO difference in class sizes.@ TrekkerGotcha. In other words, do what our legislature has done for decades:
Refuse to address the problem and keep kicking the can down the road. "Also, let's not punish parents for having large families."It's called ACCOUNTABILITY, something that many Utah families
refuse to accept. If you want to have a large family, that's great! But be
accountable for your decisions and not force me to subsidize your decisions. Besides, it's all in the way you look at it. Does the Lord
"punish" us when he asks us to contribute 10 percent? Nope, it's
accountability in order to keep his church running.
Schools are under-funded in Utah. Large families are a huge part of the problem-
the amount a family pays in property taxes and bonds in no way covers the cost
of a large family being educated. It's just a form of socialism Utah is
willing to accept. I pay for your kids to go to school. I have no problem doing
this if the money is being used to create a good education system- but we
don't give schools enough money to even come close to having what it takes
to have a good education system here. Schools do need more money, I'm
willing to help pay for other peopele kids but we shuold all be paying more.
@Mike Richards,The books are open. Every single dollar spent by public
education is public money, which by law is accounted for openly. All you have to
do is click, my friend. This is in high contrast to private schools, which
often hide their expenses. Caveat anyone who pays money into these private chain
In the bizarre world of Utah, the more children you have, the less you pay to
educate them. I guess taking responsibility and paying your way doesn't
apply to Utah's big families.
The Real Maverick, Why don't we impose impact fees for new subdivision that
is built. It is not just Utahns having large families, we have a lot of people
moving into the state due to they want a better life here. People on this board
claim Admin costs are lower here, still one has to ask why a few years ago
Jordan Districts Superintendent at the time was paid more than the Governor?
When that district split by nearly 40% should the admin been cut by that much?
you would think but instead they kept them all on board even with a smaller
district and now wonder why they have no money.
I know you're not supposed to ask this but... why don't we ask the
teachers to take less pay to teach less children?If each teacher is
going to be teaching less children... doesn't that make sense?Usually you ask for more money when you also promise to do MORE work (in this
case that would be teaching MORE students, not less). For example... if I were
an employee making widgets, I would ask my boss for a raise when I was able to
show him my PRODUCTIVITY had increased and I was making more widgets than I used
to (or more widgets than other employees make). Making the case that my
increased productivity would justify him paying me more.It's
hard to ask the boss to pay you more for making LESS widgets (or teaching LESS
students).I mean if I told my boss he needed to hire more people so
I could do less work... how would that work out?Now before you go
there... I know teaching students is not the same as making widgets. I'm
talking about the general concept.
I have no problem with new monies to reduce class size – as long as that
is where the new money goes and it is not absorbed by some administrative
overhead boondoggle.Mike Richards,I generally agree with what
you say, but dividing Utah’s median household income by 2 to get to an
average per wage earner is not appropriate. There are many single-income
households that your formula does not account for.isrred,
MaverickSo a wealthy, single person should pay less in taxes than a family
with 5 kids? Yep, THAT’s progressive!Maverick,You speak
of static, then throw out you own. Tell me, is 43% a majority yet?Concerning administrative costs – maybe we don’t need fewer people
in administration, but why should the superintendent make more than the
governor? Maybe we are paying the administrators more than we should??
I know, let's quibble more as we watch our education system continue to
sink toward 3rd world levels. Every well educated child in America can pay back
multiple times the money spent on them if we will just quit speaking out of both
sides of our mouths. Heaven help us if a teacher earns a few dollars more than
you each year. It's time to invest in America again and I am talking about
the big picture not the typical U.S. business model of fiscal quarter to fiscal
quarter. You can't cut down all the 'trees' and then wonder why
in 20 years there is no shade.
Sal, since when is paying for what you consume a "punishment?" I know
that many Utahn's claim to be capitalist, meaning they pay for the goods
and services they consume, but for some reason they cling desperately to the
socialist tax formulas as evident in the child tax credits and deductions.
There is no difference between a crack addict mom having more children to get
more in food stamps and state assistance and those who have more children to get
child tax credits. The fact remains that someone needs to pay to educate those
kids and under the current "redistribution" tax formulas, those who have
the most children are the very ones paying the very least into the treasury.
This has got to stop. People need to start taking responsibility for their
actions and that means the number of children they choose to have.
Kings Court,Who would have a child just so they could get the child tax
credits???I don't have any young children, so I don't know
what the child tax credit is, but it's like $600 a year isn't it?
Who would have a child just to get $600? That doesn't even cover the
birth, much less cloth and feed them for the year and leave you a little on the
side!Now the crack addict you compared them to, or somebody who can
get on public assistance IF they have a child... now THATs a different story.
They don't just get a tiny tax credit. They can get food stamps,
medicare, unemployment, other welfare benefits, even SS in some cases, thousands
of dollars each month (vs few hundred $ credit on what you pay in taxes at the
end of the year).Now you can see how apples-to-airplanes your
caparison really is.I don't know ANYBODY in their right mind
that would have a child just to get the child tax credit.
To "The Real Maverick" part of the problem lies at the school level with
the number of adiministrators, and non-teaching staff, but you also have to
consider the District level administrators and non-teaching jobs.For
example, at the elementary school that I went to, when I was there it had 3
teachers per grade 1 to 6, and 2 Kindergarten teachers, 1 librarian, 1 special
needs teacher, a janitor, and 2 or 3 lunch ladies. That same school still has
about the same number of students, possibly less, and they have added a computer
specialist, multiple paid teacher assistants, a second secretary, and councilors
to the staff. If a school has not grown in the past 40 years or more, why do
they need a larger staff? What has changed that now requires more people to
teach the same number of kids virtually the same things?That is
where you the waste has gone. Assuming that Utah is like the rest of the
nation, we are only getting 60% of school funding to the classroom. The rest is
sucked up in administration.
@ Mike RichardsIf pay is so great why are people not leaving their
jobs to go be a teacher? Why did I choose not to have any part of that
profession in college or any of my colleagues in the business school who were
the top of the class in the accounting dept.?Teacher pay is poor.
Very poor. Nobody wants to be a teacher becuase the pay is bad and the
environment to teach in is worse. The only reason why on paper it looks like
they make more is because of health benefits which have inflated their actuall
wages by 18% each year.
To "The Hammer" if the pay is so bad why do they have anywhere from 10
to 600 applicants for each teaching job that opens up? See "K-5 teacher
overload: Too many trained, not enough jobs" in USA Today.The
evidence shows that there are many people who want to be teachers, so many that
districts have to reject most applicants.How can it be that
"Nobody wants to be a teacher becuase the pay is bad and the environment to
teach in is worse" when some states have 600 applicants for each teaching
position that opens up?
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