Decreased school size. school district size and class size would recruit better
teachers, create a better environment for kids especially in inner cities, and
increase positive parental involvement in the students academics. Great letter.
Fund smaller classes only as you cut administrative fat. Also, let's not
punish parents for having large families. Large families should be encouraged
at a time when there are not enough children produced to sustain Social Security
I agree schools need more money at the teacher level not in admin. However i
would rather see the money come from a source other then eliminating the child
tax deduction as this senator is proposing.
Open the books. Open the books. Open the books.Utah spends a great
deal of money on education. Where is that money going? Open the books. Show
us where every dollar is being spent. Why would administrators be paid more
than teachers? Aren't teachers the "front line"? Why, then, have
an insentive to get teachers out of the classroom?Show us exactly
why each administrator has a job. If teachers have 40+ students in each class,
why not double the workload on each administrator?Teachers make more
money than most of the taxpayers who pay their salaries. That may come as a
major shock to some teachers who think that they are underpaid. The median
household income in the United States is $63,000. Utah's is $56,000. In a
two income family, that comes to $28,000 per wage earner or $14.00 per hour.
Family size in the US is 3.00, with Utah having 3.56 people average per
household. Open the books. Let those who pay the taxes see where
their tax dollars are being spent.
Please note that the administrative costs for Utah public education are much
smaller (about 2/3) of the administrative costs for education systems around the
country.Compare public education administrative costs to your own
employment situation. Where else does one person have supervision
responsibility for about 50 teachers, about 40 school foods, secretarial staff,
and custodial personnel, and 500 teen agers? This is the situation as present
today in large Wasatch front high schools of 2500 students. This assumes that
the principal shares the l
"Also, let's not punish parents for having large families."Large families are the ones causing the strain on the system. It is not
punishing them to ask them to pay more of their fair share for services they are
using. Republicans always say they want a flatter, more fair tax with fewer
deductions that are give aways to special groups--well this proposal does
exactly that and Utah Republicans hate it, even though it's their own
Great letter!There is a correlation between class size and student
achievement. The smaller the class size the higher the achievement will be.
There is, however, a strong relationship between per pupil funding, class size,
and student achievement. The higher the funding, the lower the class size is,
will increase the achievement. Which doesn't bode well for
Utah, where per pupil funding is dead last, class sizes are highest among the
nation, and student achievement is now slipping. There are those on
AM radio that like to deny this, and insist that funding doesn't mean
better results. Then again, there are those who deny evolution, global warming,
and believe that Noah put dinosaurs on his ark. Lets stick to being smart and
use common sense here and ignore the loud static that is being played on AM
radio. We need to fix education. Better funding (and yes, higher
taxes) needs to happen.
@ Sal"Fund smaller classes only as you cut administrative
fat."Have you even attempted to calculate the cost of this? Lets
assume that you got rid of an entire school district's leadership. With
more than 70 schools in many school districts in Utah, you wouldn't even be
able to add one teacher to every single with the "savings" you'd
gain by cutting administration.Even if you cut one administrator
from each school you'd only be able to add maybe 2 teachers per school.
That makes absolutely NO difference in class sizes.@ TrekkerGotcha. In other words, do what our legislature has done for decades:
Refuse to address the problem and keep kicking the can down the road. "Also, let's not punish parents for having large families."It's called ACCOUNTABILITY, something that many Utah families
refuse to accept. If you want to have a large family, that's great! But be
accountable for your decisions and not force me to subsidize your decisions. Besides, it's all in the way you look at it. Does the Lord
"punish" us when he asks us to contribute 10 percent? Nope, it's
accountability in order to keep his church running.
Schools are under-funded in Utah. Large families are a huge part of the problem-
the amount a family pays in property taxes and bonds in no way covers the cost
of a large family being educated. It's just a form of socialism Utah is
willing to accept. I pay for your kids to go to school. I have no problem doing
this if the money is being used to create a good education system- but we
don't give schools enough money to even come close to having what it takes
to have a good education system here. Schools do need more money, I'm
willing to help pay for other peopele kids but we shuold all be paying more.
@Mike Richards,The books are open. Every single dollar spent by public
education is public money, which by law is accounted for openly. All you have to
do is click, my friend. This is in high contrast to private schools, which
often hide their expenses. Caveat anyone who pays money into these private chain
In the bizarre world of Utah, the more children you have, the less you pay to
educate them. I guess taking responsibility and paying your way doesn't
apply to Utah's big families.
The Real Maverick, Why don't we impose impact fees for new subdivision that
is built. It is not just Utahns having large families, we have a lot of people
moving into the state due to they want a better life here. People on this board
claim Admin costs are lower here, still one has to ask why a few years ago
Jordan Districts Superintendent at the time was paid more than the Governor?
When that district split by nearly 40% should the admin been cut by that much?
you would think but instead they kept them all on board even with a smaller
district and now wonder why they have no money.
I know you're not supposed to ask this but... why don't we ask the
teachers to take less pay to teach less children?If each teacher is
going to be teaching less children... doesn't that make sense?Usually you ask for more money when you also promise to do MORE work (in this
case that would be teaching MORE students, not less). For example... if I were
an employee making widgets, I would ask my boss for a raise when I was able to
show him my PRODUCTIVITY had increased and I was making more widgets than I used
to (or more widgets than other employees make). Making the case that my
increased productivity would justify him paying me more.It's
hard to ask the boss to pay you more for making LESS widgets (or teaching LESS
students).I mean if I told my boss he needed to hire more people so
I could do less work... how would that work out?Now before you go
there... I know teaching students is not the same as making widgets. I'm
talking about the general concept.
I have no problem with new monies to reduce class size – as long as that
is where the new money goes and it is not absorbed by some administrative
overhead boondoggle.Mike Richards,I generally agree with what
you say, but dividing Utah’s median household income by 2 to get to an
average per wage earner is not appropriate. There are many single-income
households that your formula does not account for.isrred,
MaverickSo a wealthy, single person should pay less in taxes than a family
with 5 kids? Yep, THAT’s progressive!Maverick,You speak
of static, then throw out you own. Tell me, is 43% a majority yet?Concerning administrative costs – maybe we don’t need fewer people
in administration, but why should the superintendent make more than the
governor? Maybe we are paying the administrators more than we should??
I know, let's quibble more as we watch our education system continue to
sink toward 3rd world levels. Every well educated child in America can pay back
multiple times the money spent on them if we will just quit speaking out of both
sides of our mouths. Heaven help us if a teacher earns a few dollars more than
you each year. It's time to invest in America again and I am talking about
the big picture not the typical U.S. business model of fiscal quarter to fiscal
quarter. You can't cut down all the 'trees' and then wonder why
in 20 years there is no shade.
Sal, since when is paying for what you consume a "punishment?" I know
that many Utahn's claim to be capitalist, meaning they pay for the goods
and services they consume, but for some reason they cling desperately to the
socialist tax formulas as evident in the child tax credits and deductions.
There is no difference between a crack addict mom having more children to get
more in food stamps and state assistance and those who have more children to get
child tax credits. The fact remains that someone needs to pay to educate those
kids and under the current "redistribution" tax formulas, those who have
the most children are the very ones paying the very least into the treasury.
This has got to stop. People need to start taking responsibility for their
actions and that means the number of children they choose to have.
Kings Court,Who would have a child just so they could get the child tax
credits???I don't have any young children, so I don't know
what the child tax credit is, but it's like $600 a year isn't it?
Who would have a child just to get $600? That doesn't even cover the
birth, much less cloth and feed them for the year and leave you a little on the
side!Now the crack addict you compared them to, or somebody who can
get on public assistance IF they have a child... now THATs a different story.
They don't just get a tiny tax credit. They can get food stamps,
medicare, unemployment, other welfare benefits, even SS in some cases, thousands
of dollars each month (vs few hundred $ credit on what you pay in taxes at the
end of the year).Now you can see how apples-to-airplanes your
caparison really is.I don't know ANYBODY in their right mind
that would have a child just to get the child tax credit.
To "The Real Maverick" part of the problem lies at the school level with
the number of adiministrators, and non-teaching staff, but you also have to
consider the District level administrators and non-teaching jobs.For
example, at the elementary school that I went to, when I was there it had 3
teachers per grade 1 to 6, and 2 Kindergarten teachers, 1 librarian, 1 special
needs teacher, a janitor, and 2 or 3 lunch ladies. That same school still has
about the same number of students, possibly less, and they have added a computer
specialist, multiple paid teacher assistants, a second secretary, and councilors
to the staff. If a school has not grown in the past 40 years or more, why do
they need a larger staff? What has changed that now requires more people to
teach the same number of kids virtually the same things?That is
where you the waste has gone. Assuming that Utah is like the rest of the
nation, we are only getting 60% of school funding to the classroom. The rest is
sucked up in administration.
@ Mike RichardsIf pay is so great why are people not leaving their
jobs to go be a teacher? Why did I choose not to have any part of that
profession in college or any of my colleagues in the business school who were
the top of the class in the accounting dept.?Teacher pay is poor.
Very poor. Nobody wants to be a teacher becuase the pay is bad and the
environment to teach in is worse. The only reason why on paper it looks like
they make more is because of health benefits which have inflated their actuall
wages by 18% each year.
To "The Hammer" if the pay is so bad why do they have anywhere from 10
to 600 applicants for each teaching job that opens up? See "K-5 teacher
overload: Too many trained, not enough jobs" in USA Today.The
evidence shows that there are many people who want to be teachers, so many that
districts have to reject most applicants.How can it be that
"Nobody wants to be a teacher becuase the pay is bad and the environment to
teach in is worse" when some states have 600 applicants for each teaching
position that opens up?
Well once more I learn that certain opinions are not welcome on the forums. The
problem is you never know what is allowed; you cannot tell from the expressed
"rules".I cannot, apparently, say that mlk failed in his
quest, if quest it was, for people to be judged by "the content of their
character". If that were the case there would be equality before the law
for men and women and for whites as well as black. I do not see
this to be the case. In the USA equality is not achieved just role reversal,
replacing one form of prejudice for another.If it is politically
(and otherwise) correct to say so, I venture to suggest that now that
"appears to be" largely the case with men and women and black and
white. I doubt I will be allowed to make myself any clearer than that.
Twice in one day I am not allowed to express, on these forums at least, my
opinion.I cannot be permitted to be too plain in saying that, if the
schools wanted to save money, they would cut all optional and extracurricular
activities, all sports and music programs, most of the administration, social
workers, psychologists etc. I cannot say, too clearly at least,
that if teachers are really worried about "large" class sizes why are
they never upset with all the children of illegal aliens that have made class
sizes mushroom? Why do teachers not support mandatory e-verification to
dis-employ all the interlopers who are taking jobs from legal residents in a
situation of mass unemployment, and filling needed seats in public school
classrooms?This whole discussion is phoney if you cannot state
@ Lost in DCWhy not make both rich people and big families pay more
in taxes? Why does it have to be one way or another? Why not both? We
desperately need to raise money for education. An increase in taxes isn't
just an option, but the solution."Tell me, is 43% a majority
yet?"Just because a percentage of people believes a certain way
doesn't mean that it's true. Lets assume that 99.9 percent deny
gravity exists and believe that the earth is a cube. That doesn't make it
any less true. So lets rely on the science. The science shows us a very strong
relationship between per pupil spending, class size, and student achievement.
Believe what you want, you are free to do so. But know the facts. :)@ 2 bits"why don't we ask the teachers to take less pay to
teach less children?"Ummmm... Because they are already making
hardly anything? I thought the letter here was about improving education and not
gutting spending? If we want to improve education we cannot decrease teacher pay
thus making the profession even less attractive. To be continued...
@redshirtSure there are plenty of average college grads out there looking
for work, who have trouble finding jobs elsewhere. In fact hundreds of them
apply BUT if you ask TOP grads, the best and the brightest, why they won’t
be teachers they will tell you very simply the pay is awful and the environment
is bad. You pay for what you get and most college grads who are in the top half
of their class will not teach no matter what some truth-in-taxation website
conjures up as salary. Teachers are poorly paid for the education they receive
and the work they have to do.
ContinuedWho would go to college for 4 years to make under 30k?If the goal is to have smaller class sizes, you don't then decrease
teacher pay to accomplish this. This is like pouring oil and toxic waste into
Utah Lake wanting to get rid of the carp. Sure, you "lower the number of
carp" but you destroy the lake. Decreasing class size by basing
the pay on # of students would not improve education but destroy it. Remember,
our goal is to improve education. Rather than waste time on these
frivolous debates. Why not work on ways to drastically increase spending for
education in Utah? Do we need to charge the churches a certain fee? Put a new
tax on Jello? Charge families for their number of children and thus hold them
accountable for their actions?Finally, we have such a weird
obsession in this state to vilify public education. I truly don't get it.
You get what you pay for in all aspects of life. So why should education be any
different? Increase spending=better education@ Mike RichardsA word of advice: Please become a teacher. I guarantee you will have an
"For example, at the elementary school that I went to, when I was there it
had 3 teachers per grade 1 to 6, and 2 Kindergarten teachers, 1 librarian, 1
special needs teacher, a janitor, and 2 or 3 lunch ladies. That same school
still has about the same number of students, possibly less, and they have added
a computer specialist, multiple paid teacher assistants, a second secretary, and
councilors to the staff. If a school has not grown in the past 40 years or more,
why do they need a larger staff? What has changed that now requires more people
to teach the same number of kids virtually the same things?"Stop
being ridiculous. Have demographics changed over the past 40 years?
Has technology changed? Has class size changed? Has
society changed in the past 40 years?How do we hope that education
should remain the same as it was 40 years ago and expect better results? This is
insane. You need to evolve with the times. Today, a school needs more
counselors, assistants, and technology specialists. A bigger problem
would have been that the school hadn't changed over the past 40 years. Now
that would be downright scary!!!
That is a lie. My spouse applied to be a teacher at a local Highschool. That
was after graduating with honors from college with a double major.It
isn't that the best and brightest are not going into teaching because of
the salary and working conditions. It is the fact that the teaching profession
has become so incestuous that they only hire those that think and act like they
do or else those that can be molded into the established idea of what a teacher
does.Then, there are those that don't want to go into teaching
because of the massive amounts of rules governing what they can and can't
do in the classroom.Teachers are not really paid that poorly.
According to the UEA web site, most school teachers start out around $32,000/yr.
Since they only work around 190 days per year, that means that if they worked
as much as a person working outside of education, they are making $42,000/yr.
That really isn't bad for a job right out of college. A Civil Engineer,
fresh out of college averages $49,000/yr in Utah.
@redshirtYes females will go into the profession but what about
bread winning dads? They won't even touch it. so we have females who use
the profession to supplement a family income. Be honest redshirt, Would you
ever consider teaching as a profession as the main bread winner for your family?
The answer is almost always NO! I won't do it and most dads won't do
it.Also most engineers work about 40 hours a week with the
occasional 50 hour work week where as my Dad put in 60 hour weeks almost every
week starting in August and working through the end of May. I lived in poverty
my whole life because my dad was a teacher and we didn't have that as a
supplemental income. The honest conlcusion is our teachers are on average coming
from the bottom half of college grads and from a degree that is far less
demanding then engineering or accounting!
Can't we just say what is the truth. This is just another example on how
socialism fails. You will never have enough money to make socialism work, the
same goes with the education system.
Let's set some ground rules. School teachers want the rest of Utah's
workers to pay them more for their time in the classroom. The rest of
Utah's families earn $56,000 per year, regardless of how many people in
that family are working. Let's make everything equal. No
public sector employee should expect to be paid more than the people who pay his
wages. Barry Newbold, the former superintendent in Jordan School District was
paid over $250,000 per year. His father, my band teacher, never earned anywhere
near that amount. Why was Barry paid at least 5X more than the average family
in Utah? Why was he paid about 10X more than the average worker in Utah? What
did he do that made him worth 10X more than you or me? He wasn't even in
the classroom. He was a glorified scheduler who assigned others to do the work.
Pay the teachers the same as those who pay the teachers. Pay those
outside the classroom less. Let those who disagree get a job in the private
sector where they will be paid what they're worth, not what they think
2 bit, Socialism is socialism regardless of motive. There should be
no special tax breaks or subsidies that are paid by other taxpayers. That means
we should't have mortgage deductions either. If we didn't have the
child tax credit and standard deductions, I'm pretty sure that parents
would think twice about having more children than they can afford, which is
indicative that many have more children than they should due to the subsidies,
so yes, many do have more children to get those breaks without even realizing
it. FYI: The cumulative tax break for children is much, much
more than $600 and yes, I do know of parents who are very excited to be getting
those subsidized tax breaks when they have children. I know some people who
brag that they pay nothing in taxes and even get thousands more in child tax
credits. Also, the child tax credit is $1,000 per child, not $600 per child.
Some Republicans are talking about doubling the socialist child tax credit. The
child tax credit is also added on top of the standard deductions on your income
taxes, so again the cumulative impact on your taxes is quite large.
If teaching is so easy and the pay is so great, why does teaching have more than
a 50% turnover rate in the first 3 years? I would never leave a job that
overpaid me and was really easy. There may be a lot of applicants but are they
actually qualified? Or are they stay at home moms hoping to get a job? There is
still a shortage of qualified teachers in Utah and nation wide. Plus when class
sizes are so high there are less teaching jobs for applicants.
RedShirtMIT, I have sat on hiring committees and maybe some states that pay
better than Utah have 600 applicants per position. I usually see about 80-100
applicants per position, but I can tell you that most applicants are woefully
unqualified with only about 3 or 4 of those make the interview list as strong
candidates. The problem is that there was a teacher shortage before the
recession, but after the downturn, lots of people who have no real desire to be
a career educator are simply dusting off their old degrees to get a stop gap job
in education until the economy improves. That is what is happening in the
current hiring climate. Also, don't you find it sad that the
author of the letter, Derek Smith, never asked about getting a raise. All he
said is that we should hire more teachers to reduce class sizes so each child
can get more individualized attention. A lot of these comments are showing me
that much of the conservative public is more interested in maintaining the
factory education model rather than doing what is best for the kids. I guess I
shouldn't be surprised.
"Can't we just say what is the truth. This is just another example on
how socialism fails. You will never have enough money to make socialism work,
the same goes with the education system."How is it failing? Why does it only fail here and work so well in other countries?Why is asking folks with more kids actually be responsible and pay for their
decisions somehow demonized? "Socialism" huh? So are you
suggesting we privatize education? Should we do the same for the police and fire
departments? It's so difficult to take folks like you seriously.
Who would want to teach? I will tell you, because my parents were
career teachers. They are people who have a love of education. They know and
love the content they teach, and they want to share that love with others. They
aren't as concerned about getting rich as they are about enriching their
communities by inspiring their students to learn and be better citizens. They
are smart, compassionate, and dedicated individuals who feel like teaching is a
calling and not just a job. They spend 10-12 hours a day during the school year
working on lessons, grading work, and even attending extra-curricular activities
to show support for their students. The spend their summer "vacations"
volunteering, leading student tours, teaching summer school courses, planning
for the next school year, and improving their craft at non-paid
professional-development workshops. They are people who enjoy catching up with
former students they run into at the grocery store, and the love to hear about
those students' successes.
continued...They attend weddings, missionary farewells, courts of
honor, and even funerals of the children they taught. They impact lives. They
are heroes. Yet, these are the people too many in this state like to turn into
selfish villains of some strange alter universe.
To "The Hammer" and you have more women going into fields like nursing,
dental hygenists, bank tellers. Nursing pays really well, since few men go into
nursing what does that mean, that men can't handle the job?You
sound quite bitter about your upbrining. If you felt like you were poor growing
up, that was probably a symptom of something beyond the pay your father earned.
I know a few male teachers that have done quite well, and you wouldn't know
what sort of salary they make. They are good with their money and have invested
it wisely. Some have summer jobs that more than make up for the hours not
working because they were teachers.To "open minded" teachers
quit within the first 3 years for several reasons. Some quit because they have
a child and don't want to work. Others quit because the rules for teachers
suck the fun out of the job. Others quit because the veteran teachers make it a
hostile work environment for anybody that has new ideas.To
"Kings Court" salary has little to do with number of job applicants. In
NJ they pay $3000/yr more than SLC for the same job.
Maverick,Senator Jones’ proposal does not raise taxes on large
families and the wealthy, as you propose, just on large familes, so your first
comment is off-topic. You will see that I already support more funding for
education, I just do not think those least able to bear the new taxes should be
faced with them.As for what percent believes what, I do not know
where you are going with those comments, either. You insisted last November
that slick willy won the majority of votes in ‘92 and ’96, citing
the 43% as slick’s percentage of votes during one of those elections. So
I ask, is 43% a majority yet? Believe what you want, you are free to do so. But
know the facts. :)RedshirtMIT,They may only teach that number
of days, but they have other administrative and prep days. And what are they
supposed to do with those other days? Where can they find temporary, part time
jobs with professional wages? Doesn’t work that way.
To "lost in DC" you may not think that they can find other jobs, but
they can and do.I knew a Biology teacher that taught university
level courses in the summer and occasionally taught at night for the same
university.I knew another teacher that had a Photography business
that was really busy during the summer.I worked for a business that
hired teachers to go out and do wildlife studies during the summer months.All of those jobs paid professional wages, and the jobs only lasted for
the summer.They looked for summer jobs, and found them.
To All:I am a public school teacher--have been for many years. In this blog I'm seeing a big misunderstanding about what teachers
want and need. No one goes into education expecting a high salary. I certainly
don't expect taxpayers to give me a huge raise every year. The problem is
the current political atmosphere that is poisoning teacher morale. We are often
seen as either poor victims or selfish money grubbers. Major
problems for teachers include 1. huge class sizes, 2. ever tighter
restrictions on our freedom to teach and make decisions on behalf of our
students, 3. more students who come unprepared to learn and parents who
are uninvolved4. more reliance on standardized testing that narrows the
curriculum, 5. more punitive measures on teachers and schools and But perhaps the main reason for the low morale is just the lack of
respect for the profession indicated by ever-increasing accusations of
incompetence, and the ever decreasing monetary support for public education.
Redshirt,thank you. how many teachers do you know who could not get
part-time, professional wage jobs during the summer? I am sure they greatly
outnumber the exceptions you cited.
I watched KSL 2 nights ago.Nadine Wimmer did a story about spending
and public schools.The STATE school superintendent showed her that
each Utah school child costs $5,600 per year, and they said more than 50%
went to the Teachers' salaries - the remainder was broken down by -
facilities, maintenance, supplies, and lastly administration.But
I'm an engineer, Educated by these same people.so, I did the
math...Let's assume only 50% went to teachers salaries.That would be ~ $2,800 per student.The average classroom has 30+
students.so - That means the average teacher is making $84,000
a year.Even if one subtracts benefits, such as healthcare, retirement, and
pensions -- The "average" teacher should be making over $60,000 a
year.I think someone is lying.and I know too many teachers to
believe it is them.either that or Utah schools gets an F- for
Why do taxpayers get upset for teachers with 6 years of college work for $16 an
hour, and Superintendants making $250,000 a year.When in the
private sector - Fast Food and WalMart workers make $7.25 an hourwhile their CEOs make $55,000 and HOUR [ $114,000,000 a year ].And
bad as it seems, Thank goodness for Unions and Government.Based on capitalistic economics -- PLEASE don't privatize education!
Re: "As a school teacher, I know that money for public education will make a
difference."Only to teachers and their greedy trade union.No one else would even notice.
RedshirtMIT"o "The Hammer" if the pay is so bad why do they
have anywhere from 10 to 600 applicants for each teaching job that opens up?
"Now look at "WHO" is applying for those jobs...
Majority of them are women and those that are married their husband makes more
money... I know my wife is a teacher.
RedshirtMIT"Since they only work around 190 days per year, that
means that if they worked as much as a person working outside of education, they
are making $42,000/yr. "Talk about a "Lie", most
teachers "TEACH" 190 days a year.... That does not inlcude these hours
at home or after school to do all the other things that teachers are required to
do.my wife goes to work at 8:00 and leave at 6:00 five days a
week... Then she spends several hours a night grading papers....
LDS LiberalHere some facts for you.... I work for the state and know
how the state works...Statement: Half goes to the teachers
salaries.... False....Half the money goes to what it takes to pay
teachers...a. Federal unemployment taxb. FICAc. Health Cared. Retiremente. Salary (hourly)these are just a few
things..... Now go look on the back of your pay stub and see what your employer
pays for you that you don't get in your pocket..... that is what he was
talking about and that is why people who don't know gets upset.
LDS Liberal,RE" "Based on capitalistic economics -- PLEASE
don't privatize education!"Yes by all means don't
privatize education. I mean private school teachers are getting so underpaid
(oh wait... that's PUBLIC school teachers, private school teacher as doing
fine).And Private Schools are failing to educate their students
(Oh... wait... that's PUBLIC schools).And Private Schools have
too many students in their classes (Oh wait... that's PUBLIC schools).By all means... never EVERY privatize public schools! And by all
means... Thank goodness for Unions and Government.
2 bits:Wow, you are really comparing apples to oranges there. Why do
you think that private schools are able to avoid many of the problems of public
schools, anyway? They get to handpick their students. They get to determine and
enforce the perfect class size. Public schools must take all comers, and can
only afford small class sizes by going to the public hat in hand. It's just
not fair to compare the outcomes. Since we want everyone to be educated
(don't we?) we have to figure out some way to pay what it costs to do so
There's absolutely no reason in a red state to give people a tax CUT for
having more children that will cost more to educate. Be self sufficient. This
socialism for conservatives must not stand! No tax breaks for large families!
Ninjutsu,How is comparing public and private schools an invalid
comparison?LDS Liberal is the one who said private schools are a
terrible thing, and "Thank goodness for Unions and Government".If private schools are to be dreaded, and education would be in trouble if
public schools had the same motivations and education model as private
schools... then doesn't looking at the two and comparing their results
valid?I think obviously Private Schools do NOT destroy education
(they educate pretty well). And they aren't based on LDS Liberal's
savior... "Government and Unions".