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Letters: 'In God We Trust'

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  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    July 15, 2013 7:40 a.m.

    To "atl134" yes, I know that FDR was a huge Progressive. I also know that Congress didn't have to do anything in 2009, and that the nation would have probably been better off had congress let the failing banks fail.

    To "Kalindra" do you just like to argue. The simple fact remains that there were fewer bad loans being made when banks could determine their own lending standards. I don't know where you get your information from, but everything I could find shows that there were fewer banking problems during the 1950's than there currently are today.

    The Republicans have turned the fight for civil rights over to the Tea Party.

    So, you agree that the values of the 1950's were such that you had fewer single mothers.

    You forget that those peaks of unemployment in the late 1950's were gone by 1960. During that time we also INCREASED our labor participation rate by over 1%. Since 2003 we have DECREASED our labor paricipation rate by 3%.

    According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics we do have less crime in the 1950s than we do now.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 14, 2013 7:51 p.m.

    @iron&clay – “FYI Creator = God.”

    Could you be more specific?

    If that’s all we have to go on, creator could mean some kid in a highly advanced civilization who programmed a really awesome “life on planet” computer simulation game.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 14, 2013 5:13 p.m.

    zoar63
    Mesa, AZ

    =======

    Look, I'm active LDS,
    but as far as America is concerned....

    if the Founding Fathers happened to appear in a Synagogue or Mosque --
    Would you still feel the same?

  • Ranch Here, UT
    July 14, 2013 12:12 p.m.

    @zoar63;

    If WW was lying, who was to say? The superstitious will believe anything.

  • Kass SLC, UT
    July 13, 2013 5:51 p.m.

    @ Zoar63: Your religious beliefs mean something to you - but they do not mean anything to those who do not share them.

    That is a great story - but it proves nothing.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 13, 2013 4:19 p.m.

    zoar63: I've read that quote before. The funny thing is that the founding father's temple work had already been done by that time.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    July 13, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    AN INCIDENT AT ST. GEORGE TEMPLE. I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God."

    These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights.

    (Wilford Woodruff, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, edited by G. Homer Durham, p.160-)

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    July 13, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    So isn't God thee most important thing? How important is having some manners? Is being rude the thought of as being Cool or Righteous?

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    July 12, 2013 11:10 p.m.

    @ GZE

    From the Declaration of Independence we hear that all men were endowed by their creator with individual rights.
    The Constitution codifies that endowment.

    FYI Creator = God.

  • genetics Canada, 00
    July 12, 2013 8:00 p.m.

    Lagomorph
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Wow, that's quite a few possibilities, none of which were mentioned in the publiccation! Just what hard evidence would convince you that there is a God, let's say after the Judeo-Christian tradition, worthy of the statement, "In God We Trust"?

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 6:41 p.m.

    genetics: "There is grand scientific evidence for God, see: The 'Wow! Signal'..."

    Even taking your interpretation of the paper at face value, that is not evidence of "God" as commonly understood (omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, supernatural divine being), only evidence that a nonzero probability of extraterrestrial intelligence exists. It could be little green men, spaceships above Devil's Tower, or HAL-- intelligent, but corporeal, material, mortal. It is certainly not evidence of a particular deity, e.g. Yahweh/Jehovah. To the extent that any sufficiently advanced technology (context dependent) is indistinguishable from magic, maybe a being of sufficient intelligence to seed the planet with DNA is a god to us now, but the paper cited is not compelling proof. It doesn't validate the original letter writer's call to get back to "In God We Trust."

  • Steve Cottrell Centerville, UT
    July 12, 2013 5:47 p.m.

    As long as we teach trigonometry, there will always be prayer in schools. It might not be publicly sponsored prayer however.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    July 12, 2013 5:12 p.m.

    @RedShirtMIT - while your in the dream world of the 1950s, you forgot to mention that we also were engaged in a war we would not win - and are still dealing with the implications of that loss, we had little black girls being attacked by police dogs in the south, churches being burned and bombed, lynchings, the political scandals of the time, including;

    "Parnell Thomas (R-NJ): a member of the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC), was convicted of salary fraud and given an 18-month sentence and a fine, resigning from Congress in 1950. He was imprisoned in Danbury Prison with two of the Hollywood Ten he had helped put there. After serving his 18 months he was pardoned by Truman (D) in 1952"....

    Sure, its easy to reconstruct the economics of the 1950s... lets just have the majority of Europe, Asia and good parts of the Soviet Union in post war reconstruction after 7 years of world war.... and the economy will be great. We could get back to very low unemployment sure..... just wipe out a few million europeans.... and start a new war in asia.

    ..... back to the 50s we go.

  • genetics Canada, 00
    July 12, 2013 5:00 p.m.

    Blue
    Salt Lake City, UT
    "There is no objective evidence for a God. There are mountains of objective evidence that support the thesis that "god" is an invention of the human mind. A popular invention, to be sure, but popularity is not reality."

    There is grand scientific evidence for God, see: The "Wow! Signal" of the terrestrial genetic code in the journal Icarus (Volume 224, Issue 1, May 2013, Pages 228–242). Essentially, the pattern of our DNA indicates intelligent design when using SETI (Search for extra terrestrial intelligence) criteria. If you consider this in parallel with the number of potential habitable planets that keep showing up- the implications are,well, pretty big.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 12, 2013 4:02 p.m.

    @jsf –

    Nice speech… but the point of the article is can you force me to stand on that wall beside you (e.g., school prayer) while you carry on?

    And LDS Liberal is right… Jefferson never elaborated on what he meant by “Creator” and as a Deist who literally re-wrote the Bible (see Jefferson Bible) stripping out the supernatural stuff, it is highly doubtful he had in mind the same concept of God that you do.

    You can stand on the wall or a street corner and shout your beliefs to the heavens all you want… it’s a free country. But what you cannot do is dominate the public sphere backed up by government sanction.

    The genius of Jefferson is he presciently recognized that to allow one religion the ability to dominate the public arena would be to codify the ability of ANY religion (as long as they had a majority in their community) to do the same.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    July 12, 2013 2:42 p.m.

    "What YOU decide to believe is 100% irrelevant.and THAT is the beauty and the miracle unique to America." Those statements are indirect opposites of what America is about. What a man believes is 100% relevant it is the basis of his faith. "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights", Who say you is this creator? Allah is the god of Abraham, the god of the old testament the same god Christians believe in.

    What you believe is 100% relevant. Why do you chastise those who stand on the wall and openly tell their beliefs. You often use the moniker of Samuel, but you deride others their spoken faith. Time to emulate Samuel, stand on the wall and shout the truth. Time to get out from under the liberal p c basket and share your faith. Do not be ashamed of your beliefs.

    It is ok to say you believe the founding documents were divinely inspired. Lest the cocks crow thrice and you deny Gods hand. A causal effect is not the same as a creator.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 12, 2013 2:16 p.m.

    @ Redshirt: While you are idealizing the 1950's and the higher tax rate and lower unemployment, let us also not forget that in the 1950's, minimum wage was enough to pay your rent with 60 hours (a week and a half) of work, buy your groceries, and go to the movies (the movies cost about 1/2 hour of work).

    Current minimum wage requires 109 hours (almost 3 weeks) of work to pay the rent, over an hour for a movie, and, as long as you spend less than $290 on food every month, a week of labor will feed you.

    It is interesting though - because you, and your fellow conservatives, keep telling us that a higher tax rate and higher minimum wage will cause exactly the opposite of what we had in the 1950's when both those things were in existence.

    So, is history wrong? Or are you?

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2013 1:44 p.m.

    So many good comments thus far.
    The US of A wasn't created by God or for God. Natives lived on the land for roughly 15,000 years before 1776, they had their own ideas of god and they were doing just fine before Europeans brought guns and germs to the mix.
    Why can't we just let people live by the dictates of their own conscience and the laws of the land and leave the various gods out of it?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 12, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    UtahBlueDevil
    Durham, NC

    "Perhaps this explains why liberals don't like our constitution or the God who inspired it!"

    You have to wonder does Mountainman actually believe this drivel... or is he saying such absurd things to gain shock value

    =========

    I am a Liberal.
    I believe in God, and active LDS.
    I am also a veteran and dearly love and have served our Country.

    Mountanman is a Conservative.
    He believes only Conservatives can believe in God.
    and as far as I know, he is NOT a veteran.

    So,
    By his own example and using his logic:
    Only Conservatives who NEVER have served their Country
    can believe in God or love their country.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 12, 2013 1:32 p.m.

    The Founding Fathers and our founding documents refer to a "Creator", not God.

    A "Creator" can therefore mean:
    God, Allah, The Force, and even pure chance or natural probability via comets or lightning and amino acids.

    What YOU decide to believe is 100% irrelevant.

    and THAT is the beauty and the miracle unique to America.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 12, 2013 1:30 p.m.

    Brad Hoffman.

    If there was even the tiniest proof or validation of any kind for your belief, we might be able to accept your opinion.

    Failing that, we must do the best we can with what we see, hear and feel in the real world.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 12, 2013 1:01 p.m.

    @ Redshirt: "In the 1950's, the US was running budget surpluses and paying down the debt." And the highest tax rate was over 84%.

    "In the 1950's we didn't have the massive banking regulations that required banks to lower their lending standards. We didn't have the massive health insurance regulations that made insurance cost so much." A study of the history of banking regulations will show crises occur much more often when regulations are lower. In 1950, healthcare expenditures were 4.5% of GNP. By 1960, it had doubled. Additionally, the aged, ill, and self-employed had difficulty acquiring insurance and getting medical care. The death rate was higher and people were dying younger.

    "We had Republicans fighting for civil rights." Yeah - what happened to that?

    "We had fewer children being born to single mothers." The rate, however, is currently declining.

    "Unemployment ranged between 3% and 6.6%" In 1958 the rate was 6.8%. The current rate is 7.6%. It is moderately higher, but business regulations are down and outsourcing is up.

    "Crime rates were about half of what they are now." Even by best estimates that is not true - and some types of crime are actually lower.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 12, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    GZE,
    Good point. About FDRs "2nd Bill of Rights" (AKA "Economic Bill of Rights" or "Socialist Bill of Rights").

    If you look at today's politics... since FDR Progressives have proposed pretty much everything in the 2nd Bill of Rights... and won.

    1. Guaranteed Employment (and a living wage)
    2. The right to adequate food and clothing and recreation (SNAP)
    3. The right of every family to a decent home (not yet)
    4. Guaranteed medical care (ObamaCare)
    5. Guaranteed Education (public school system)
    6. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment (Social Security)

    We either have all of these now, or they have at least been proposed.

    So whether you realize it or not... The 2nd Bill of Rights WAS adopted (gradually)

    Obviously there's nothing "BAD" in FDR's "2nd Bill of Rights". It's just... HOW do you pay for it? Obviously we are still struggling with THAT part of the equation.

  • Lightbearer Brigham City, UT
    July 12, 2013 12:10 p.m.

    From the letter: "No prayers are allowed at school."

    You can pray in school all you want by using silent prayer. To pray this way you don't even need to move your lips. Or is a prayer only a prayer if others know that you're praying? Is a prayer only a prayer if it's said aloud for others to hear? Is a prayer any less of a prayer because it's said silently?

    According to Jesus, prayer is a private thing: "Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you."

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 12, 2013 11:50 a.m.

    Anyone who thinks today's liberals are more progressive/communistic than the democrats of the 1940s and 50's needs to google FDR's "2nd Bill of Rights."

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 11:35 a.m.

    @RedshirtMIT
    "The Democrats were not fully taken over by the Progressives/communists like they are now. "

    You do realize that FDR is considered the Progressive hero right?

    "In the past 30 years Democrat controll of congress has been responsible for the largest increases in the Federal Debt."

    Oh sure, blame the Democrats when the deficit increases in 2009 were primarily due to the recession which was caused by big banks and their Republican friends.

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    July 12, 2013 11:13 a.m.

    To "Steve C. Warren" and Republicans ran Congress, which set the budget during that time.

    The Democrats were not fully taken over by the Progressives/communists like they are now. The Democrats of the 1950s are like the Republicans of the 1990's.

    Actually the worst thing for the US would be for the Democrats to regain full control of the Federal Government. In the past 30 years Democrat controll of congress has been responsible for the largest increases in the Federal Debt. In addition to debt, when Democrats controlled Congress and the Presidency we have had some of the biggest time-bomb legislation enacted.

    The other problem is where the current Democrats are taking the US. They are taking us closer and closer to socialism or fascism. Do you really think that socialism or fascism is better than capitalism and freedom?

    Unless you can get rid of all of the current Democrats and get Democrats with the same attitudes and philosophies as the 1950s Democrats, it would only hasten the demise of the US.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    July 12, 2013 10:57 a.m.

    You're right, Brad. Everyone needs to return to Zeus. If not, he's going to start throwing around a few extra lightning bolts and we wouldn't want to get struck by one, would we.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 10:47 a.m.

    @Mountanman
    "Didn't Democrats actually booo God at their last convention? "

    No, they booed the Democratic party leadership for not getting a tally of the vote when it was not clear at all that a majority voted for the provision to be added to the party platform. That's the sort of context responsible news outlets would've added but I assume wherever you got this from ignored that detail.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    July 12, 2013 10:45 a.m.

    Just because teachers can no longer force your children to pray according to the teacher's beliefs, does not mean there is no prayer in schools.

    "In God We Trust" was added to money when the US switched from gold to paper and coin tender - it was a way of validating its use. "Under God" was added to the Pledge as an anti-communism device.

    It is interesting that you acknowledge the need for religious freedom and then immediately want to take away from those who worship differently than you.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 10:41 a.m.

    For a letter talking about religious freedom, it sure is focused on putting one particular religion in everything (and don't pretend that God is generic and can refer to whatever one chooses to see it as, you used a capital g for a reason).

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    July 12, 2013 10:37 a.m.

    The good 'ol '50s - when I was born. We had corporate tax rates of 50%, the Cold War, McCarthyism, racial segregation (despite Republicans heroic efforts), the suppression of women ... it was great! Too bad life spans were shorter so we couldn't enjoy it longer.

  • Steve C. Warren WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    July 12, 2013 10:36 a.m.

    @RedShirtMIT: "It is funny to hear the liberals saying that a return to 1954 social and political structures is bad. They forget history."

    Good point. Perhaps the reason many good things were happening in the country in 1954 is that Democrats had occupied the White House from 1933 until 1953. Alas, since 1953 the White House has been occupied by Republicans most of the time. However, with the current brand of Tea Party Republicanism, it may be many years before a Republican returns to the White House. That will be good for the country, especially if the U.S. House returns to Democratic control.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    July 12, 2013 10:29 a.m.

    " Perhaps this explains why liberals don't like our constitution or the God who inspired it!"

    You have to wonder does Mountainman actually believe this drivel... or is he saying such absurd things to gain shock value. There are just as many democrats with crosses above their graves as there are "conservatives" buried in the fields of Normandy and Arlington National.

    It makes one wonder if conservatives really have become so obsessed with their own brand of patriotism that they have completely isolated themselves from the reality that people all don't have to agree to 1) love their country, and 2) love their constitution. It is a very sad state of about our "union"..... that respect for another despite differing views is becoming a lost virtue.

  • RedShirtMIT Cambridge, MA
    July 12, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    It is funny to hear the liberals saying that a return to 1954 social and political structures is bad. They forget history.

    In the 1950's, the US was running budget surpluses and paying down the debt.

    In the 1950's we didn't have the massive banking regulations that required banks to lower their lending standards. We didn't have the massive health insurance regulations that made insurance cost so much.

    We had Republicans fighting for civil rights.

    We had fewer children being born to single mothers.

    Unemployment ranged between 3% and 6.6%

    Crime rates were about half of what they are now.

    If we could return to the same values and government philosophies of that time, I don't see how that is a bad thing.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 12, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    The Roman Empire believed that they were uniquely favored by God. (or rather by the Gods)
    The Spanish Empire believed that they were uniquely favored by God.
    The British Empire believed that they were uniquely favored by God.

    What do all of these have in common? They don't exist anymore.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    July 12, 2013 9:39 a.m.

    @LDS Liberal:
    "Substitute "Allah" every time "God" is mentioned in this letter,
    and I could swear I was reading a letter in the Baghdad Daily or Tehran Times."

    Duh! Allah is Arabic it means "God" just like the god of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

    I was talking to an Islamic scholar and she agrees that America is a Christian naton. What that means to her is that if you construct a Venn diagram of the role of government and the role of religion, the government and religion studiously avoid overlap. The problem that someone from a non-Christian and/or non-Jewish religion encounters is that the overlaps don't fit their tradition.

    Being progressive and open-minded means that we will try to accomodate different traditions as opposed to what the Obama administration is doing, namely running roughshod over all traditions which they disagree.

  • ray vaughn Ogden, UT
    July 12, 2013 9:27 a.m.

    Some could conclude the Constitution was inspired by alcohol. A party held at a local tavern prior to the signing of the Constitution included 54 bottles of maderia, 60 bottles of claret, 8 bottles of whiskey, 22 bottles of porter,8 bottles of hard cider and 7 bowls of alcohic punch.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 12, 2013 9:23 a.m.

    Puhleeze… let us know when jack-booted thugs start shutting down churches and burning Bibles. Until then this tempest-in-a-teapot sounds like little more than temper tantrums from the folks no longer in charge of every aspect of society.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 9:10 a.m.

    Imagine that Mr. Hoffman's letter was found on an 8th century BCE scroll in Greece, and that he was decrying the way society had abandoned Zeus. After all, Zeus is the god that made the world and the universe around us and leads the pantheon of gods.

    Imagine that Mr. Hoffman's irritation is with society's failure (as he sees it) to adequately worship Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, Hera, etc.

    What would be your response to such a letter from the past?

    When you understand the reasons why you would dismiss this appeal to worship Zeus, then you will understand why I dismiss your belief in an equally imaginary god today.

    To Mr. Hoffman and those of a similar mind, which "god" do you think we're inadequately worshipping? You know you've got thousands from which to choose, don't you?

    And even if you settled on the "God of Abraham," are you aware that even after you've narrowed your focus that drastically you still don't stand a chance of achieving consensus on _how_ you're supposed to worship this deity?

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 12, 2013 9:07 a.m.

    John Adams, like every other American, had the right to say whatever he wanted. And the founders wrote all kinds of things referencing their god. You will note, however, that the word does not appear in the Constitution. Maybe they had a reason for that.

  • LiberalEastCoastMember Parkesburg, PA
    July 12, 2013 9:06 a.m.

    As long as public school teachers continue to subject their students to tests, exams and quizzes, its safe to say there will be prayer in our public schools.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    Mman:

    I consider myself a moderate. You would consider me a liberal. I happen to like the Constitution. I understand it differently than you do. I also think some parts of it are woefully outdated. The Founders, as wise as they were, could not anticipate the type of society we enjoy or the unique problems modernity fosters. The document could probably be amended in several ways to make it more relevant to the twenty-first century, but it will likely never happen.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    Brad Hoffman.

    If there was even the tiniest proof or validation of any kind for your belief, we might be able to accept your opinion.

    Failing that, we must do the best we can with what we see, hear and feel in the real world.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:51 a.m.

    "This nation was built around God. Without God it wouldn't exist. I even believe that God influenced Christopher Columbus to find this continent." I'm sorry, Brad, but it's incredibly conceited of you to make these statements and expect me to accept and even acquiesce to them because you believe it. I'm not willing to do that. It could well be that this nation was built around the collective deliberations of a group of well educated men who took the best of the lessons history had to offer and improved upon them to craft a new nation. And Columbus 'found' this continent 494 years after the Vikings established a settlement here, let alone how many thousands of years after people traveled to it across the Bering land bridge. As for 'In God we Trust', to me in means we'll take a cheque from god. From you, however, cash only.

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    July 12, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    Blue,

    I was going from memory when I posted before. I double-checked and sure enough, you were right. Thanks for the correction.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:39 a.m.

    re: 2 bits

    "I disagree with Blue that "There is no objective evidence for a God". I think EVERYTHING in humanity, nature, and this universe, is evidence of God."

    Concur. God exists. Its after that that everything gets fuzzy

    "I do think that the government we have today is off-track from what the founding fathers intended. They didn't want a "State Religion". They also did NOT want government passing laws to hinder peoples faith or beliefs."

    Agreed. The Wall mentioned by T Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptists is meant to restrict both sides from getting too uppity.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:31 a.m.

    "“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams. Perhaps this explains why liberals don't like our constitution or the God who inspired it! Didn't Democrats actually booo God at their last convention? Sort of says it all, doesn't it?"

    Ahhhh so it's back to a "god inspired" constitution again? Funny, a week or so ago repubs were callig for the abolishment of the 3rd branch of government, the Judiciary Branch.

    I guess the constitution being inspired varies for repubs from week to week.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:28 a.m.

    "When the phrase in question was added in 1954, the US may have been the utopia that conservatives want to return to."

    Utopia? It was the pinnacle of peace time fear. They added In God We Trust to coins and one nation under God to the Pledge as a sort of "garlic" to ward of those Communist "vampires".

    Effecting change through fear? Conservatives used that 1950's formula throughout the 2000's.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:21 a.m.

    Sorry to quibble, KJB1, but the US Treasury indicates that "In God We Trust" first began appearing, sporadically, on US coins in the late 1800's. The phrase didn't begin becoming consistently used on coins in the early 1900's. Paper money began to be printed with the phrase in the 1950's.

    But your central point is correct - "In God We Trust" was definitely _not_ part of the early history of our nation. That was added much later.

    Our nation's original motto was "E Pluribus Unum." ("Out of many, one.") The wisdom of that appears to be beyond the comprehension of today's theocratic conservatives.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:14 a.m.

    re: isred

    Agreed. The Vikings beat him to it by a good 400 yrs.

    re: KJB1

    Exactly. Our money does not say in God we worship.

    When the phrase in question was added in 1954, the US may have been the utopia that conservatives want to return to.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 12, 2013 8:05 a.m.

    LDS Liberal,

    He didn't say America should be a "Theocracy". I think if you read again you will see that. But good putting words in people's mouths. Makes a good strawman for you to fight against.

    I think the founding fathers believed there is a God. Otherwise... why all the references to "God" in their writings and their opinions? But I think they were talking about God in general (not any specific religion or belief but the concept in general). So no.. they did not propose a "Theocracy". But they also didn't propose an "Athiest" or a "Humanist" nation either. They recognized God has a role in our lives, and our Nation. They were wise IMO.

    I disagree with Blue that "There is no objective evidence for a God". I think EVERYTHING in humanity, nature, and this universe, is evidence of God. But he has a right to his opinion as I have a right to mine.

    I do think that the government we have today is off-track from what the founding fathers intended. They didn't want a "State Religion". They also did NOT want government passing laws to hinder peoples faith or beliefs.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    July 12, 2013 8:03 a.m.

    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams. Perhaps this explains why liberals don't like our constitution or the God who inspired it! Didn't Democrats actually booo God at their last convention? Sort of says it all, doesn't it?

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 12, 2013 7:52 a.m.

    We do understand that "In God We Trust" was not put onto our money until nearly 100 years after our country was founded?

    We also realize that it wasn't until the 1950s that it was placed on our paper currency? And it was done to thumb our noses at the communists during the Cold War?

    Btw, I could pray all I wanted at school. It was teacher and principal led prayers that we didn't have nor need! Think the majority of utahns would be ok with a Muslim led school prayer?

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    July 12, 2013 7:49 a.m.

    The "In God We Trust" Brad likes to go on about wasn't added to American coins until 1954 and America managed to survive until then.

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    July 12, 2013 7:49 a.m.

    Wait, if you believe Mormon doctrine doesn't that mean that the nephites showed up about 1,600+ years before columbus?

  • isrred South Jordan, UT
    July 12, 2013 7:30 a.m.

    Christopher Columbus did not "find" this continent...

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2013 7:26 a.m.

    There is no objective evidence for a God. There are mountains of objective evidence that support the thesis that "god" is an invention of the human mind. A popular invention, to be sure, but popularity is not reality.

    Keep your theocratic urges to yourselves. If you don't want government intruding into your private religious beliefs, then keep your private religious beliefs out of the government.

    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius

  • Noodlekaboodle Poplar Grove, UT
    July 12, 2013 6:44 a.m.

    Why does the religious right feel the need to change history to fit their narrative? The reality is that the founders of this country are a lot like the population of this country now. You have Christians, like George Washington, Deists(similar to modern day agnostics) like Thomas Jefferson, and guys who didn't really have strong religious views, but love women and wine like Ben Franklin. The Founding Fathers were a diverse group of people, Americans now are a diverse group of people. Can we please just stick to the facts?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 12, 2013 1:39 a.m.

    Substitute "Allah" every time "God" is mentioned in this letter,
    and I could swear I was reading a letter in the Baghdad Daily or Tehran Times.

    America is not a Theocracy.

    BTW --
    Having "God" is not the issue,
    it's who's God,
    and are you really allowing others the Freedom to worship who, where or what they may?